FAQ
Hi,

I'm seeking feedback on: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements

And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press release and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc): http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease

I could really use your feedback. This version has some placeholders for data I am trying to get but the verbiage is a bit too long I think. Anyway, please take a look, keep in mind this is something aimed for general release. It's probably still too technical. Thoughts, suggestions, abuse welcome.

When it's done, I am hope we can get lots of people linking to it as far and wide as possible. We put a lot of effort into this code and we deserve recognition.

John

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  • Hans Dieter Pearcey at Apr 23, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 08:46:29AM -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press release
    and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc):
    http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
    Most of your paragraphs are tl;dr, which isn't helped by the fact that there's
    basically no links or any other kind of differentiation between different parts
    of the text.

    Moose Object Development Environment: huh? does anyone call it that anywhere?

    hdp.
  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 23, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Hans Dieter Pearcey wrote:

    From: Hans Dieter Pearcey <hdp.perl.catalyst.users@weftsoar.net>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 11:56 AM
    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 08:46:29AM
    -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    And in particular my first swing at something we can
    use as a press release
    and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc):
    http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
    Most of your paragraphs are tl;dr, which isn't helped by
    the fact that there's
    basically no links or any other kind of differentiation
    between different parts
    of the text.
    I'm not sure what you mean by tl;dr but the formatting is currently crap. Right now I'm leaving it text to make it easier to submit to text based systems like Slashdot, etc. I guess we should have a nicely formatted version and a reasonable looking text version. Volunteers that know what nice looking means are welcome to give it a go.

    Same for the links, not all submission engines allow html.

    Please feel free to copy and change as you think.

    Moose Object Development Environment: huh? does anyone call
    it that anywhere?
    We really need something, since "Moose" alone mean nothing to most of the world. Willing to hear suggestions. I'll bring it to the Moose channels as well.

    I realize marketing and branding means fuck all to most of you, but this is really a serious issue. Perl, Catalyst and Moose don't get 1% of the respect and discussion it deserves. Anti Perl sentiment is beginning to reach a tipping point after which we are going to be looking up from a deep dark hole. Any help or useful suggestions should be on the table ASAP. We just finished a years worth of effort here, let's find a good way to make it count.

    John
    hdp.

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  • Hans Dieter Pearcey at Apr 23, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:19:50AM -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    I'm not sure what you mean by tl;dr
    "too long, didn't read". Big blocks of text. You could probably split each of
    those paragraphs up so that people's eyes don't get lost in the middle.
    Moose Object Development Environment: huh? does anyone call
    it that anywhere?
    We really need something, since "Moose" alone mean nothing to most of the
    world. Willing to hear suggestions. I'll bring it to the Moose channels as
    well.
    'the Moose object system' -- that's its name and what it is. If that's not
    good enough, well, you already know where to find people to discuss it with.

    Ranting at me about how this is really important is a little odd since you left
    this to be discovered in a Catalyst press release rather than, say, bringing it
    up on #moose or moose@perl.org -- it's not like you've been trying to get us to
    decide on a name for months or something, and have now given up.

    hdp.
  • Octavian Rasnita at Apr 23, 2009 at 5:23 pm
    Hi,

    I think that these announcements about Catalyst 5.8 would have a bigger
    effect if those who aren't Moose users already would understand a little
    which are the advantages of this new version of this framework.

    These announcement is OK, but I think it would be very helpful to also put a
    link to another page with some simple examples about how to use Moose in
    Catalyst for doing things that were not possible until this version.

    Show how to use attributes that couldn't be used without Moose, tell about
    other benefits offered by Moose in a Catalyst app, tell about how the speed
    of a Catalyst app is affected...

    Octavian

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Napiorkowski" <jjn1056@yahoo.com>
    To: <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:46 PM
    Subject: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage

    Hi,

    I'm seeking feedback on:
    http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements

    And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press
    release and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc):
    http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease

    I could really use your feedback. This version has some placeholders for
    data I am trying to get but the verbiage is a bit too long I think.
    Anyway, please take a look, keep in mind this is something aimed for
    general release. It's probably still too technical. Thoughts,
    suggestions, abuse welcome.

    When it's done, I am hope we can get lots of people linking to it as far
    and wide as possible. We put a lot of effort into this code and we
    deserve recognition.

    John




    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 23, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Octavian R?snita wrote:

    From: Octavian R?snita <orasnita@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: "The elegant MVC web framework" <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 1:23 PM
    Hi,

    I think that these announcements about Catalyst 5.8 would
    have a bigger effect if those who aren't Moose users already
    would understand a little which are the advantages of this
    new version of this framework.

    These announcement is OK, but I think it would be very
    helpful to also put a link to another page with some simple
    examples about how to use Moose in Catalyst for doing things
    that were not possible until this version.

    Show how to use attributes that couldn't be used without
    Moose, tell about other benefits offered by Moose in a
    Catalyst app, tell about how the speed of a Catalyst app is
    affected...

    Octavian
    Okay,

    So I tightened up some of the words, reduced the length and adjusted the formatting. We definitely need more on the Moose side. However, I don't think I should just cut and paste links. What I did was create a page for Catalyst-Moose advocacy and linked to the Moose homepage.

    This is definitely a great opportunity for the Moose group to get a little 'free' publicity and I hope we can find a way to get the most out of all this work we did.

    Please check out the lastest on the wiki. Thanks!

    john
    ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Napiorkowski"
    <jjn1056@yahoo.com>
    To: <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:46 PM
    Subject: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and
    announcement homepage

    Hi,

    I'm seeking feedback on: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements

    And in particular my first swing at something we can
    use as a press release and send to all the usual suspect
    (Slashdot, Digg, etc): http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
    I could really use your feedback.? This version
    has some placeholders for data I am trying to get but the
    verbiage is a bit too long I think. Anyway, please take a
    look, keep in mind this is something aimed for general
    release.? It's probably still too technical.?
    Thoughts, suggestions, abuse welcome.
    When it's done, I am hope we can get lots of people
    linking to it as far and wide as possible.? We put a
    lot of effort into this code and we deserve recognition.
    John




    _______________________________________________
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    Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/

    _______________________________________________
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  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 23, 2009 at 7:01 pm

    --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Hans Dieter Pearcey wrote:

    From: Hans Dieter Pearcey <hdp.perl.catalyst.users@weftsoar.net>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 1:34 PM
    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:19:50AM
    -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    I'm not sure what you mean by tl;dr
    "too long, didn't read".? Big blocks of text.?
    You could probably split each of
    those paragraphs up so that people's eyes don't get lost in
    the middle.
    Moose Object Development Environment: huh? does
    anyone call
    it that anywhere?
    We really need something, since "Moose" alone mean
    nothing to most of the
    world.? Willing to hear suggestions.? I'll
    bring it to the Moose channels as
    well.
    'the Moose object system' -- that's its name and what it
    is.? If that's not
    good enough, well, you already know where to find people to
    discuss it with.

    Ranting at me about how this is really important is a
    little odd since you left
    this to be discovered in a Catalyst press release rather
    than, say, bringing it
    up on #moose or moose@perl.org --
    it's not like you've been trying to get us to
    decide on a name for months or something, and have now
    given up.

    hdp.
    I'm sorry if you think this was a rant aimed at you. It's not. I do think the release of Catalyst is a great opportunity to help Moose raise awareness. Part of this copy was hucked down onto my laptop while riding the train between work and home, no particular text is intended to aggrieve anyone.

    On the other hand, if I'm willing to take a few body blows if that's what it takes to cause some discussion.

    Changes made to the wiki, hopefully it's closer. Would be great to get some more details in responses, such as more particular words or sentences we don't feel is right.

    peace,
    John
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  • Joakim Lagerqvist at Apr 23, 2009 at 7:53 pm
    2009/4/23 John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com>:

    Changes made to the wiki, hopefully it's closer. ?Would be great to get some more details in responses, such as more particular words or sentences we don't feel is right.
    Great job John! I think it is very good but here are a couple of
    things that came to mind when I read the latest version:

    The third sentence under "Announcing Catalyst 5.8!". Perhaps it would
    be better to put bug fixes earlier so the "stress" of the sentence
    focuses on improved documentation and features:

    The Catalyst 5.8 series comprises countless bug fixes, improved
    documentation and many time saving new features.

    Then it might also connect better with the following sentence ("These
    evolutionary changes...").

    The "It is available..." on the second sentence on the following
    paragraph could be replaced by "Catalyst is available..." to give
    Catalyst a stronger focus.

    My next stop is at the third sentence under "About Catalyst", it
    starts out good but I get a bit confused after the comma. One idea
    could be to explain the "gives" once again:

    We have enabled many new features which gives you more power when
    building applications, these new features also gives the Catalyst team
    a better base for extending the framework into the future.

    The first sentence in following paragraph could be explained a bit
    more. Why are all these companies turning to Catalyst?

    More companies are turning to Catalyst as a core web application
    technology to benefit from its simplicity, extendability, and power.

    Cheers,
    Joakim
  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 23, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Joakim Lagerqvist wrote:

    From: Joakim Lagerqvist <joakim.lagerqvist@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: "The elegant MVC web framework" <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 3:53 PM
    2009/4/23 John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com>:

    Changes made to the wiki, hopefully it's closer.
    ?Would be great to get some more details in responses, such
    as more particular words or sentences we don't feel is
    right.
    Great job John! I think it is very good but here are a
    couple of
    things that came to mind when I read the latest version:

    The third sentence under "Announcing Catalyst 5.8!".
    Perhaps it would
    be better to put bug fixes earlier so the "stress" of the
    sentence
    focuses on improved documentation and features:

    ? The Catalyst 5.8 series comprises countless bug
    fixes, improved
    documentation and many time saving new features.

    Then it might also connect better with the following
    sentence ("These
    evolutionary changes...").

    The "It is available..." on the second sentence on the
    following
    paragraph could be replaced by "Catalyst is available..."
    to give
    Catalyst a stronger focus.

    My next stop is at the third sentence under "About
    Catalyst", it
    starts out good but I get a bit confused after the comma.
    One idea
    could be to explain the "gives" once again:

    ? We have enabled many new features which gives you
    more power when
    building applications, these new features also gives the
    Catalyst team
    a better base for extending the framework into the future.

    The first sentence in following paragraph could be
    explained a bit
    more. Why are all these companies turning to Catalyst?

    ? More companies are turning to Catalyst as a core web
    application
    technology to benefit from its simplicity, extendability,
    and power.

    Cheers,
    Joakim
    Thanks these are great additions. I modified the wiki page with these and a few other tweaks I got from reviewing several other press releases

    Lastest at: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
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  • Zbigniew Lukasiak at Apr 23, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:03 PM, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    Thanks these are great additions. ?I modified the wiki page with these and a few other tweaks I got from reviewing several other press releases

    Lastest at: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most advanced Object
    Oriented framework for any major scripting language

    I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less flame
    igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more advanced
    Object system).
  • Hans Dieter Pearcey at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:15 am

    On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:14:00AM +0200, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most advanced Object
    Oriented framework for any major scripting language

    I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less flame
    igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more advanced
    Object system).
    Is there anything for Ruby, Python, or PHP that's comparable? I mean, those
    are the other major scripting languages.

    Perl 6 is not a "major" scripting language.

    I think John's version is fine.

    hdp.
  • Kevin montuori at Apr 24, 2009 at 11:43 am

    "ZL" == Zbigniew Lukasiak writes:
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most advanced
    Object Oriented framework for any major scripting language
    ZL> I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less flame
    ZL> igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more
    ZL> advanced Object system).

    Why not something like "... the most productive ..." -- Moose is great
    but not exactly advancing the state of the art; indeed, it's
    implementing a technique/protocol that's been around a long time now.

    Also, why does Perl have to be a "scripting language"? I don't write
    scripts (particularly with Moose), I write programs. If you're
    uncomfortable with "any major language" (or, better, "any popular
    language") how about substituting "interpreted" for "scripting"?

    Just a thought. It's nice to see someone publicizing Catalyst!


    k.



    --
    kevin montuori
    montuori@gmail.com
  • Kiffin Gish at Apr 24, 2009 at 11:55 am
    I prefer just 'programming language'

    --
    Kiffin Gish <kiffin.gish@planet.nl>

    On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 07:43 -0400, kevin montuori wrote:
    "ZL" == Zbigniew Lukasiak <zzbbyy@gmail.com> writes:
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most advanced
    Object Oriented framework for any major scripting language
    ZL> I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less flame
    ZL> igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more
    ZL> advanced Object system).

    Why not something like "... the most productive ..." -- Moose is great
    but not exactly advancing the state of the art; indeed, it's
    implementing a technique/protocol that's been around a long time now.

    Also, why does Perl have to be a "scripting language"? I don't write
    scripts (particularly with Moose), I write programs. If you're
    uncomfortable with "any major language" (or, better, "any popular
    language") how about substituting "interpreted" for "scripting"?

    Just a thought. It's nice to see someone publicizing Catalyst!


    k.

  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:04 am

    --- On Thu, 4/23/09, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    From: Zbigniew Lukasiak <zzbbyy@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: "The elegant MVC web framework" <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Date: Thursday, April 23, 2009, 6:14 PM
    On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:03 PM,
    John Napiorkowski wrote:
    Thanks these are great additions. ?I modified the
    wiki page with these and a few other tweaks I got from
    reviewing several other press releases
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most
    advanced Object
    Oriented framework for any major scripting language

    I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less
    flame
    igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more
    advanced
    Object system).
    I really want to agree but then I read some of the crazy hype coming out of pretty much every other system and I ask myself if our modesty hurts us? I mean I'd rather go to the mat and try to argue Moose is the best thing ever and stir some controversy than to keep being ignored as we have been.

    Any other thoughts or feelings? My first version of this was even more strongly worked, but I toned it down a bit. Still, I figured at least one person would call me out on one or two bits. I'll mellow it out if people think I should.

    I'd rather not get into a Perl6 discussion though, I know that's going start the flames :)

    John

    --
    Zbigniew Lukasiak
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

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  • Kieren Diment at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:26 am

    I really want to agree but then I read some of the crazy hype coming
    out of pretty much every other system and I ask myself if our
    modesty hurts us? I mean I'd rather go to the mat and try to argue
    Moose is the best thing ever and stir some controversy than to keep
    being ignored as we have been.
    +1

    Did a minor edits: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease.view?rev
    Any other thoughts or feelings? My first version of this was even
    more strongly worked, but I toned it down a bit. Still, I figured
    at least one person would call me out on one or two bits. I'll
    mellow it out if people think I should.

    I'd rather not get into a Perl6 discussion though, I know that's
    going start the flames :)

    John

    --
    Zbigniew Lukasiak
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

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    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/



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  • Jesse Sheidlower at Apr 24, 2009 at 8:28 am

    On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 12:26:53PM +1000, Kieren Diment wrote:
    Did a minor edits: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease.view?rev
    This still needs a copy edit. When's it going live? Where's the source, or
    to whom can I send comments?

    Jesse
  • Kiffin Gish at Apr 26, 2009 at 9:18 am
    I had a couple issues when running cpan Catalyst::Runtime, namely I
    first had to install manually:

    - Class:MOP
    - Moose

    Perhaps it'd be a good idea to make sure that the installation runs
    without errors before making the announcement public?

    -
    Kiffin Gish <Kiffin.Gish@planet.nl>
    Gouda, The Netherlands


    On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 12:26 +1000, Kieren Diment wrote:
    I really want to agree but then I read some of the crazy hype coming
    out of pretty much every other system and I ask myself if our
    modesty hurts us? I mean I'd rather go to the mat and try to argue
    Moose is the best thing ever and stir some controversy than to keep
    being ignored as we have been.
    +1

    Did a minor edits: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease.view?rev
    Any other thoughts or feelings? My first version of this was even
    more strongly worked, but I toned it down a bit. Still, I figured
    at least one person would call me out on one or two bits. I'll
    mellow it out if people think I should.

    I'd rather not get into a Perl6 discussion though, I know that's
    going start the flames :)

    John

    --
    Zbigniew Lukasiak
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

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  • Kieren Diment at Apr 26, 2009 at 9:23 am

    On 26/04/2009, at 7:18 PM, Kiffin Gish wrote:

    I had a couple issues when running cpan Catalyst::Runtime, namely I
    first had to install manually:

    - Class:MOP
    - Moose

    Perhaps it'd be a good idea to make sure that the installation runs
    without errors before making the announcement public?

    Odd, I just installed Catalyst-Runtime on a clean Ubuntu system and
    had no problems.
  • Kiffin Gish at Apr 26, 2009 at 9:45 am
    Guess it's been fixed then, rumor had it that there might have been some
    problem with the local mirror I was using?
    -
    Kiffin Gish <Kiffin.Gish@planet.nl>
    Gouda, The Netherlands


    On Sun, 2009-04-26 at 19:23 +1000, Kieren Diment wrote:
    On 26/04/2009, at 7:18 PM, Kiffin Gish wrote:

    I had a couple issues when running cpan Catalyst::Runtime, namely I
    first had to install manually:

    - Class:MOP
    - Moose

    Perhaps it'd be a good idea to make sure that the installation runs
    without errors before making the announcement public?

    Odd, I just installed Catalyst-Runtime on a clean Ubuntu system and
    had no problems.

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  • Octavian Rasnita at Apr 24, 2009 at 5:17 am
    From: "John Napiorkowski" <jjn1056@yahoo.com>
    ... the revolutionary Moose Object system, the most
    advanced Object
    Oriented framework for any major scripting language

    I would change that to 'one of the most advanced' - less
    flame
    igniting (and by the way Perl 6 probably does have a more
    advanced
    Object system).
    I really want to agree but then I read some of the crazy hype coming out
    of pretty much every other system and I ask myself if our modesty hurts >
    us? I mean I'd rather go to the mat and try to argue Moose is the best
    thing ever and stir some controversy than to keep being ignored as we
    have been.

    Any other thoughts or feelings? My first version of this was even more
    strongly worked, but I toned it down a bit. Still, I figured at least one
    person would call me out on one or two bits. I'll mellow it out if people
    think I should.
    You can say that Moose is the best, but in that case I think it would be
    elegant (and helpful) to also say why.
    If we don't even know if it (and why) it is the best... I think you should
    not tell that.

    Octavian
  • Jonathan Rockway at Apr 24, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    * On Thu, Apr 23 2009, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    I really want to agree but then I read some of the crazy hype coming
    out of pretty much every other system and I ask myself if our modesty
    hurts us? I mean I'd rather go to the mat and try to argue Moose is
    the best thing ever and stir some controversy than to keep being
    ignored as we have been.
    +1 here. It's sad to say, but I think modesty is killing the Perl
    community. Members of the other language communities like to hype up
    things that aren't even true ("PHP is the fastest language"), and then
    people believe them and make decisions based on the hype. Arguably
    these people are morons that would step off a cliff if a blog told them
    they could levitate, but I don't see any harm in steering them in the
    right direction. Moose *is* the best object system in any language.
    Catalyst is one of the best web frameworks for building complex
    applications. If we tell people that, perhaps they will have a look.

    If we hem and haw around the issue, "oh it's kind of nice", then they
    will just use PHP instead, and that doesn't help *anyone*.

    (One thing that might make things complicated here is that Moose and
    Catalyst are most useful for experienced developers. There is nothing
    shiny that encourages one to get started with them. I think this is a
    good thing, since all the shininess of Ruby and Rails makes it really
    hard to actually do something useful ... however, most people don't want
    to do something useful, since that would involve actual work.)

    Anyway, enough amateur psychoanalysis from me. Advocate what you
    believe in, and let other people decide for themselves.
    Any other thoughts or feelings? My first version of this was even
    more strongly worked, but I toned it down a bit. Still, I figured at
    least one person would call me out on one or two bits. I'll mellow it
    out if people think I should.
    Like I said, no need to tone it down.

    Regards,
    Jonathan Rockway

    --
    print just => another => perl => hacker => if $,=$"
  • Iain at Apr 24, 2009 at 7:56 am

    On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 08:46 -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    Hi,

    I'm seeking feedback on: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements

    And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press release and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc): http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease

    I could really use your feedback. This version has some placeholders for data I am trying to get but the verbiage is a bit too long I think. Anyway, please take a look, keep in mind this is something aimed for general release. It's probably still too technical. Thoughts, suggestions, abuse welcome.

    When it's done, I am hope we can get lots of people linking to it as far and wide as possible. We put a lot of effort into this code and we deserve recognition.

    John
    If you are aiming for a wide audience you need to assume that they have
    never heard of catalyst let alone version 5.8. Therefore they will want
    to know what it is and who is using it in the first few lines.

    so

    "Catalyst is the premier web development framework for Perl"

    and

    "More and more companies are turning to Catalyst as a core web
    application technology. Many of these websites, such as XXX, comfortable
    scale to XXX unique page views daily"

    would be good hooks to draw people in.

    <2p/>

    Iain.
  • Kiffin Gish at Apr 24, 2009 at 8:31 am
    Seems to me a bit odd that the link
    "http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease/whymoose"

    follows the line "These new features also give the Catalyst team a
    better base for extending the framework into the future."

    Why confuse things with moose when the focus is a new and improved
    version of catalyst?


    --
    Kiffin Gish <kiffin.gish@planet.nl>


    On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 08:56 +0100, Iain wrote:
    On Thu, 2009-04-23 at 08:46 -0700, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    Hi,

    I'm seeking feedback on: http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements

    And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press release and send to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc): http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease

    I could really use your feedback. This version has some placeholders for data I am trying to get but the verbiage is a bit too long I think. Anyway, please take a look, keep in mind this is something aimed for general release. It's probably still too technical. Thoughts, suggestions, abuse welcome.

    When it's done, I am hope we can get lots of people linking to it as far and wide as possible. We put a lot of effort into this code and we deserve recognition.

    John
    If you are aiming for a wide audience you need to assume that they have
    never heard of catalyst let alone version 5.8. Therefore they will want
    to know what it is and who is using it in the first few lines.

    so

    "Catalyst is the premier web development framework for Perl"

    and

    "More and more companies are turning to Catalyst as a core web
    application technology. Many of these websites, such as XXX, comfortable
    scale to XXX unique page views daily"

    would be good hooks to draw people in.

    <2p/>

    Iain.


    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
  • Ian Wells at Apr 24, 2009 at 10:40 am

    2009/4/23 John Napiorkowski <jjn1056@yahoo.com>:
    And in particular my first swing at something we can use as a press release and send
    to all the usual suspect (Slashdot, Digg, etc):
    http://dev.catalystframework.org/wiki/releaseannouncements/58pressrelease
    Doesn't work for me.

    I'm coming from someone who found out about Catalyst only a month or
    two ago, which is roughly equivalent to the background knowledge of
    the people you're talking to here. You're introducing the buzzwords
    'Catalyst' and 'Moose' as if people should (a) know what they are
    already or (b) take it on trust that they're great and they need to
    find out. Moose can be a selling point to people who know what it is,
    but to people who don't, you're saying 'now with extra Omega-17!'

    You have to have an answer to the question 'if it's so great why have
    I never heard of it before?' Particularly since the people you're
    aiming at (/. and digg readers) are exactly the people who judge the
    merits of something based on how much they hear about it.

    Of what you have, I'd go with an argument structure like:

    - here's Catalyst
    - it's great (despite the fact you've never heard of it)
    * it's different to other frameworks
    * it's good that it's in Perl
    * it's actively developed
    * it's been widely adopted
    * it's proven in use

    (Also, iPlayer is a strong selling point. Don't hide it behind a link.)


    --
    Ian.
  • Chris at Apr 24, 2009 at 11:27 am

    You have to have an answer to the question 'if it's so great why have
    I never heard of it before?' ?Particularly since the people you're
    aiming at (/. and digg readers) are exactly the people who judge the
    merits of something based on how much they hear about it.
    Kudos to John for putting in the effort to put together this PR, but
    my thoughts were pretty similar to Ian - it needs to immediately
    address the question 'why should I care'. It probably doesn't matter
    to newcomers that the project was coordinated by IRC/mailing
    lists/etc.

    Following Ian's structure:

    * Here's Catalyst!

    * Developers, Catalyst will make your life great because the
    technology is amazing, adaptable, fun to work with because it's so
    productive, and proven - look at all these high-profile projects using
    Catalyst.

    * If you haven't used Perl before, or haven't looked at it for a while
    - time to look again. Perl is hot - Moose+Catalyst+DBIx::Class are
    building the new web.

    * Managers, Catalyst is the safe and obvious choice because the
    technology is proven, robust, and your team will be highly productive
    and can leverage power of CPAN (and look at these high-profile success
    stories using Catalyst)

    * Catalyst (and Perl) has a vibrant and active community, lots of
    support, and is going places. There are Catalyst books, websites,
    blogs and forums - you should really jump on board.

    * (Now you've captured attention, you can stick in some references to
    the technical detail)

    * "Catch the leading edge of successful web development - get
    Catalyzed" etc, etc


    Go for it John - make us wildly keen to find out more about Catalyst!

    - Chris
  • Jesse Sheidlower at Apr 24, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 09:27:42PM +1000, Chris wrote:
    You have to have an answer to the question 'if it's so great why have
    I never heard of it before?' ?Particularly since the people you're
    aiming at (/. and digg readers) are exactly the people who judge the
    merits of something based on how much they hear about it.
    Kudos to John for putting in the effort to put together this PR, but
    my thoughts were pretty similar to Ian - it needs to immediately
    address the question 'why should I care'. It probably doesn't matter
    to newcomers that the project was coordinated by IRC/mailing
    lists/etc.
    I've restructured the press release based on comments from
    John, Chris, and others. Still some XXX's to fill in, but I
    wanted to get it in more decent shape. Can one of you guys who
    knows the benchmarks of iPlayer and so forth bang on it for a
    bit?

    Jesse
  • Tomas Doran at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
    I've restructured the press release based on comments from
    John, Chris, and others.
    Nice work, starting to come together really well IMO.

    Cheers
    t0m
  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    --- On Fri, 4/24/09, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

    From: Jesse Sheidlower <jester@panix.com>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: "The elegant MVC web framework" <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 9:55 AM
    On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 09:27:42PM
    +1000, Chris wrote:
    You have to have an answer to the question 'if
    it's so great why have
    I never heard of it before?' ?Particularly since
    the people you're
    aiming at (/. and digg readers) are exactly the
    people who judge the
    merits of something based on how much they hear
    about it.
    Kudos to John for putting in the effort to put
    together this PR, but
    my thoughts were pretty similar to Ian - it needs to
    immediately
    address the question 'why should I care'. It probably
    doesn't matter
    to newcomers that the project was coordinated by
    IRC/mailing
    lists/etc.
    I've restructured the press release based on comments from
    John, Chris, and others. Still some XXX's to fill in, but
    I
    wanted to get it in more decent shape. Can one of you guys
    who
    knows the benchmarks of iPlayer and so forth bang on it for
    a
    bit?

    Jesse
    Jesse,

    These changes look great, definitely it's improving. I emailed the iplayer people yesterday asking for permission to mention them and for some official statistic but haven't heard back yet. If anyone on the list works there (or knows a person that knows a person) would be great to get an email introduction.

    Ideally we'd get this out shortly, because releasing it on the weekend is just going to sap the impact. If we can't get it in shape soon, we'll have to do it on Monday.

    I'm working on gathering some testing stats. For the first pass I'll just like the number of tests that get run when you install Catalyst, but later I'd like the testing advocacy page to be more of a comparison between the testing levels of Catalyst, RoR and some other systems. The testing coverage for CPAN a a key differentiator I think, and something that makes good PR. This is one way to try and turn the 'Perl is old and busted' around to 'Perl is mature and well tested, with know performance and scalability profiles'.

    For the scalability advocacy page, I may drop that if we can release the PR today, since I'm a little time limited and I think the iplayer link/quote would cover it for this time. If we do this on Monday, I might (or maybe some other volunteer) get to it on Sunday.

    Thanks for all the feedback and revisions from everyone so far!

    jnapiorkowski
    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
  • Kieren Diment at Apr 24, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    On 25/04/2009, at 12:16 AM, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    Jesse,

    These changes look great, definitely it's improving. I emailed the
    iplayer people yesterday asking for permission to mention them and
    for some official statistic but haven't heard back yet. If anyone
    on the list works there (or knows a person that knows a person)
    would be great to get an email introduction.
    I Filled in some more blanks on the page. iPlayer/catalyst is public
    knowledge now, and apparently there's bbc approved info to be
    disemminated: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_day_performance_tricks.html

    It's already the weekend on this side of the date line, maybe release
    Monday at this stage.
    Ideally we'd get this out shortly, because releasing it on the
    weekend is just going to sap the impact. If we can't get it in
    shape soon, we'll have to do it on Monday.

    I'm working on gathering some testing stats. For the first pass
    I'll just like the number of tests that get run when you install
    Catalyst, but later I'd like the testing advocacy page to be more of
    a comparison between the testing levels of Catalyst, RoR and some
    other systems. The testing coverage for CPAN a a key differentiator
    I think, and something that makes good PR. This is one way to try
    and turn the 'Perl is old and busted' around to 'Perl is mature and
    well tested, with know performance and scalability profiles'.

    For the scalability advocacy page, I may drop that if we can release
    the PR today, since I'm a little time limited and I think the
    iplayer link/quote would cover it for this time. If we do this on
    Monday, I might (or maybe some other volunteer) get to it on Sunday.

    Thanks for all the feedback and revisions from everyone so far!

    jnapiorkowski
    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
    Listinfo: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/



    _______________________________________________
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    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
  • John Napiorkowski at Apr 27, 2009 at 1:39 am

    --- On Sun, 4/26/09, Kieren Diment wrote:

    From: Kieren Diment <kieren@diment.org>
    Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: Sample press release and announcement homepage
    To: "The elegant MVC web framework" <catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk>
    Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 5:23 AM
    On 26/04/2009, at 7:18 PM, Kiffin Gish wrote:

    I had a couple issues when running cpan
    Catalyst::Runtime, namely I
    first had to install manually:

    - Class:MOP
    - Moose

    Perhaps it'd be a good idea to make sure that the
    installation runs
    without errors before making the announcement public?

    Odd, I just installed Catalyst-Runtime on a clean Ubuntu
    system and?
    had no problems.
    Offtopic, but found a similar issue when trying to install to my Macbook Pro. I had a version of Moose that was a few versions back and when I upgraded Moose to the newest was able to install. I didn't mention it because I wasn't sure if it was my borked up setup (I work on Moose an have a few different version in different local libs and my setup is far from clean)

    I haven't had time to fully debug, but if other people get it could be a situation were they have a version of Moose already but it's an older version that is meeting the Makefile requirement but nothing meeting some other requirement.

    That would account for it installing cleanly from a empty lib. But that's a guess.

    John
    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
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