FAQ
Hey,

There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto" here:
http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html

I've written a comment in the article suggesting that this is a pretty major
ommission and that he might want to evaluate Catalyst and do an update. The
author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable to me, so how bout it
guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake too?
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  • John Napiorkowski at Jan 2, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    --- Kieren Diment wrote:

    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto" here:
    http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html
    I've written a comment in the article suggesting
    that this is a pretty major
    ommission and that he might want to evaluate
    Catalyst and do an update. The
    author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable to
    me, so how bout it
    guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake
    too?
    This is actually quite an interesting thoughtdump on
    what we'd like in a web development framework. Some
    of the things mentioned, such as a great dispatching
    system, straightforward ORM support and easy to extend
    APIS (Plugins, customized Controllers, Views or
    Models) we have. However some of the things mentioned
    I don't see as current strong points of Catalyst, such
    as the idea of web pages being highly componentized
    and capable of managing their own state. This could
    just be my ignorance though.

    The article is big on continuations. Catalyst has a
    plugin for this but I'm not sure many people know what
    to do with it or what the advantages could be. To be
    honest I'm not someone that could answer that
    question.

    One thing not mentioned as a strong point for a
    framework is something that is a big plus for perl,
    which is the size of CPAN.

    --john


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  • Daniel McBrearty at Jan 2, 2007 at 3:10 pm
    I tried a few times to figure what continuations are, and why I might
    want them, and I never succeeded. I usually like things as simple as
    possible ... but I'd still like to "get" it.

    On 1/2/07, John Napiorkowski wrote:

    --- Kieren Diment wrote:
    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto" here:
    http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html
    I've written a comment in the article suggesting
    that this is a pretty major
    ommission and that he might want to evaluate
    Catalyst and do an update. The
    author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable to
    me, so how bout it
    guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake
    too?
    This is actually quite an interesting thoughtdump on
    what we'd like in a web development framework. Some
    of the things mentioned, such as a great dispatching
    system, straightforward ORM support and easy to extend
    APIS (Plugins, customized Controllers, Views or
    Models) we have. However some of the things mentioned
    I don't see as current strong points of Catalyst, such
    as the idea of web pages being highly componentized
    and capable of managing their own state. This could
    just be my ignorance though.

    The article is big on continuations. Catalyst has a
    plugin for this but I'm not sure many people know what
    to do with it or what the advantages could be. To be
    honest I'm not someone that could answer that
    question.

    One thing not mentioned as a strong point for a
    framework is something that is a big plus for perl,
    which is the size of CPAN.

    --john


    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org
    Listinfo:
    http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com

    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org
    Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/

    --
    Daniel McBrearty
    email : danielmcbrearty at gmail.com
    www.engoi.com : the multi - language vocab trainer
    BTW : 0873928131
  • Matt S Trout at Jan 2, 2007 at 3:32 pm

    On 2 Jan 2007, at 14:33, John Napiorkowski wrote:
    --- Kieren Diment wrote:
    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto" here:
    http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-
    Manifesto.html
    I've written a comment in the article suggesting
    that this is a pretty major
    ommission and that he might want to evaluate
    Catalyst and do an update. The
    author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable to
    me, so how bout it
    guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake
    too?
    This is actually quite an interesting thoughtdump on
    what we'd like in a web development framework. Some
    of the things mentioned, such as a great dispatching
    system, straightforward ORM support and easy to extend
    APIS (Plugins, customized Controllers, Views or
    Models) we have. However some of the things mentioned
    I don't see as current strong points of Catalyst, such
    as the idea of web pages being highly componentized
    and capable of managing their own state. This could
    just be my ignorance though.
    I don't really think that belongs in Catalyst base; I'm implementing
    highly componentised UI development with automatic state management
    in Reaction and I'm not finding doing so "on top" of Catalyst any
    harder than it'd be to hack it into the core.
    The article is big on continuations. Catalyst has a
    plugin for this but I'm not sure many people know what
    to do with it or what the advantages could be. To be
    honest I'm not someone that could answer that
    question.
    Web development is effectively stateless - or at least HTTP is. I
    tend to find continuation usage is almost invariably an XY problem -
    i.e. if you need continuations to implement your design, you should
    probably rethink it.

    --
    Matt S Trout, Technical Director, Shadowcat Systems Ltd.
    Offering custom development, consultancy and support contracts for
    Catalyst,
    DBIx::Class and BAST. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for
    details.
    + Help us build a better perl ORM: http://dbix-
    class.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ +
  • John Napiorkowski at Jan 2, 2007 at 4:25 pm
    --- Matt S Trout wrote:
    On 2 Jan 2007, at 14:33, John Napiorkowski wrote:


    --- Kieren Diment wrote:
    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto"
    here:
    http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-
    Manifesto.html
    I've written a comment in the article suggesting
    that this is a pretty major
    ommission and that he might want to evaluate
    Catalyst and do an update. The
    author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable
    to
    me, so how bout it
    guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake
    too?
    This is actually quite an interesting thoughtdump on
    what we'd like in a web development framework. Some
    of the things mentioned, such as a great
    dispatching
    system, straightforward ORM support and easy to extend
    APIS (Plugins, customized Controllers, Views or
    Models) we have. However some of the things mentioned
    I don't see as current strong points of Catalyst, such
    as the idea of web pages being highly
    componentized
    and capable of managing their own state. This could
    just be my ignorance though.
    I don't really think that belongs in Catalyst base;
    I'm implementing
    highly componentised UI development with automatic
    state management
    in Reaction and I'm not finding doing so "on top" of
    Catalyst any
    harder than it'd be to hack it into the core.
    The article is big on continuations. Catalyst has a
    plugin for this but I'm not sure many people know what
    to do with it or what the advantages could be. To be
    honest I'm not someone that could answer that
    question.
    Web development is effectively stateless - or at
    least HTTP is. I
    tend to find continuation usage is almost invariably
    an XY problem -
    i.e. if you need continuations to implement your
    design, you should
    probably rethink it.
    I've been thinking similar things, I tend to want to
    build my applications an interface on top of a REST
    inspired service. I'm finding the ATOM API to be
    great inspiration for this and for those things that
    don't fit into REST well there is XMLRPC, which is
    well supported in Catalyst.

    I'm thinking this might actually have some value for
    narrow needs; people seem to suggest continuations
    make creating context sensitive wizard style forms
    more straightforward. However the effort required to
    understand the approach makes me wonder if it's worth
    the time to figure it out. I don't make a lot of
    wizard like web forms.

    --john
    --
    Matt S Trout, Technical Director, Shadowcat Systems
    Ltd.
    Offering custom development, consultancy and support
    contracts for
    Catalyst,
    DBIx::Class and BAST. Contact mst (at)
    shadowcatsystems.co.uk for
    details.
    + Help us build a better perl ORM: http://dbix-
    class.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ +



    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org
    Listinfo:
    http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/

    __________________________________________________
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  • John Napiorkowski at Jan 2, 2007 at 4:39 pm
    --- Matt S Trout wrote:
    On 2 Jan 2007, at 14:33, John Napiorkowski wrote:


    --- Kieren Diment wrote:
    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto"
    here:
    http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-
    Manifesto.html
    I've written a comment in the article suggesting
    that this is a pretty major
    ommission and that he might want to evaluate
    Catalyst and do an update. The
    author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable
    to
    me, so how bout it
    guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake
    too?
    This is actually quite an interesting thoughtdump on
    what we'd like in a web development framework. Some
    of the things mentioned, such as a great
    dispatching
    system, straightforward ORM support and easy to extend
    APIS (Plugins, customized Controllers, Views or
    Models) we have. However some of the things mentioned
    I don't see as current strong points of Catalyst, such
    as the idea of web pages being highly
    componentized
    and capable of managing their own state. This could
    just be my ignorance though.
    I don't really think that belongs in Catalyst base;
    I'm implementing
    highly componentised UI development with automatic
    state management
    in Reaction and I'm not finding doing so "on top" of
    Catalyst any
    harder than it'd be to hack it into the core.
    There wouldn't happen to be any examples of that
    floating around that would be okay to share? I've
    spent a lot of time reading the Reaction source so I
    think I have the basic idea, but the example CRUD
    application doesn't really click for me in terms of
    how I could use this to build a componentised webpage,
    since it's only a few pages. I mean I see how the
    forms get composed of the different peices but for me
    there isn't a critical mass of documentation/examples
    in this for me to be able to use it and to contribute
    meaningfully. This is something I'd definitely like
    to contribute to if possible since user interface has
    been main development focus for a long time. Just
    right now before I can contribute I am sure I'd need
    50 questions answered and lots of hand holding that I
    know nobody has time for. I am sure there are a bunch
    of other catalyst developers that would be eager to
    join in as well if only we could get past the initial
    conceptual curve.

    thanks,
    John
    The article is big on continuations. Catalyst has a
    plugin for this but I'm not sure many people know what
    to do with it or what the advantages could be. To be
    honest I'm not someone that could answer that
    question.
    Web development is effectively stateless - or at
    least HTTP is. I
    tend to find continuation usage is almost invariably
    an XY problem -
    i.e. if you need continuations to implement your
    design, you should
    probably rethink it.

    --
    Matt S Trout, Technical Director, Shadowcat Systems
    Ltd.
    Offering custom development, consultancy and support
    contracts for
    Catalyst,
    DBIx::Class and BAST. Contact mst (at)
    shadowcatsystems.co.uk for
    details.
    + Help us build a better perl ORM: http://dbix-
    class.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ +



    _______________________________________________
    List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org
    Listinfo:
    http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst
    Searchable archive:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/
    Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail.yahoo.com
  • Kieren Diment at Jan 2, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    On 02/01/07, Kieren Diment wrote:
    Hey,

    There's an article, "Web Framework Manifesto" here: http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/archives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html


    I've written a comment in the article suggesting that this is a pretty
    major ommission and that he might want to evaluate Catalyst and do an
    update. The author seems coherent and reasonably knowledgable to me, so how
    bout it guys? Maybe you should let him know his mistake too?

    Ah well, that worked :-) . From the Author:

    "I think you're absolutely right!

    I'll look at Catalyst.

    Thanks and Happy New Year!"
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groupcatalyst @
categoriescatalyst, perl
postedJan 2, '07 at 5:54a
activeJan 2, '07 at 8:55p
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websitecatalystframework.org
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