FAQ
Howdy all,

I've put together an RFC for the new Catalyst::Helper API.
The body text is located below, but it is also available here in a pretty
formatted version:
http://www.codedright.net/2009/06/rfc-catalysthelper-api.html

For the improvement of the Catalyst::Helper API and Catalyst development in
general, comments are of the utmost importance. The more feedback
I can get, the better and quicker the API will be completed.

Thank you kindly!

-dhoss

*Intro:
*This document is to get opinions on a new, up to date set up and
refactoring of the Catalyst::Helper API.

*What We Have*
Currently, all template/image data is hideously store inline with code in
the __DATA__ section of Catalyst::Helper.pm. The API is designed to handle
data this way, which is wrong wrong wrong for a number of reasons:

1. You have to actually delve into Catalyst internals to edit any of
these files
2. If you create a helper, your data must be inline as well.
3. Its current layout does not reflect the directory hierarchy of a
Catalyst application, thus making it pretty dang hard to expand
upon/upgrade.

There are no methods to allow you to edit previously created files, unless
you want to create your own helper and feverishly create your own file
modification method(s).
I can attest to the stress this causes, as I've been doing a good deal of
yak shaving cleaning this code up and creating the proper tests for it.
It's not a very fun ordeal at this point.

*What we want*
From the feedback I've gathered thus far:
We *do* want previously created helper files to be modifiable via
Catalyst::Helpers. For instance, updating Makefile.PL, updating myapp.conf
to reflect changes, updating DBIC schema files to reflect database changes
(with minimal pain). Also, add an infrastructure for modifying existing
catalyst code, e.g. moving Catalyst::Helper::AuthDBIC from an experimental
proof of concept to something that people might actually want to use for
their own stuff.

We *do* want to be able to remove a good deal of the boilerplate code that
still seems to need to be created manually, for each app, even though it's
the exact same code for each instance.

We *do* want to set up the helper files in the hierarchy that a Catalyst
application is created in, thus cutting quickly to the chase in the way of
creating an app. It's a simple name and Template::Toolkit variable
translation, then writing the file to the filesystem process then. This
gets our binary data out of the API code, the template data out of the API
code, and generally makes every one more happy.

With this said, here are some more specific ideas that have been passed my
way that I think would really help further advance our precious Helper API:


1. Beat up MooseX::Getopt to deal with pass-through options, so you can
deal with passing data structures as arguments easier. Not to mention
actually start USING it in the Helper API.
2. Add a feature to write out DBIC schema files for deployment. Yes,
make_schema_at does this, but you have to write your own little script to
enjoy this morsel of functionality. It would be nice to have it packaged up
and ready to go for you.
3. Have something like TTSite, but less sucky. Perhaps there could be a
default layout that can be created, or you can create your own sort of skin
and have that the default generation. Or, better yet, packaged skins that
users can submit to $somewhere and have the author choose a "theme" for
their app. For instance, using $javascript framework and $css framework to
do so, like in chapt 11 of the upcoming book (Example usage:
http://www.uow.edu.au/~kd21/ <http://www.uow.edu.au/%7Ekd21/>)

These are the current ideas I have, and that others have submitted. Sure
this RFC is a bit bare, but we don't have a whole ton to work with at the
moment with Catalyst::Helper, so we need more feedback to beef things up.


--
Devin Austin
http://www.codedright.net
http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost!
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  • Francesc Romà i Frigolé at Jun 5, 2009 at 11:00 am

    On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Devin Austin wrote:

    Howdy all,

    I've put together an RFC for the new Catalyst::Helper API.
    The body text is located below, but it is also available here in a pretty
    formatted version:
    http://www.codedright.net/2009/06/rfc-catalysthelper-api.html

    Hi Devin,

    Thanks for working on this. I think you are on the right path :)

    This are two examples of things I think Catalyst::Helper should do, and it
    looks like it would, if your RFC where implemented:

    1) It should be possible to create an application with catalyst version X
    and then run the catalyst helper again on catalyst version < X (assuming it
    doesn't use any feature of the newer version). Right now if an application
    has been created with Catalyst 5.8, running it with 5.7 is not just a matter
    of changing the line "use Catalyst::Runtime 5.80;"

    2) It should be possible to incrementally change parts of the themes both
    for a specific application, or in general, for all the applications that I'm
    developing.

    For example, a possible approach could be, if I do catalyst.pl MyApp -theme
    cheesy, and I have a local theme configuration, let's say I have the files
    wrapper.tt and css/forms.css in the directory ~/.catalyst/themes/cheesy. In
    this case it should use the default catalyst configuration files for the
    theme "cheesy" except for my local theme files. Also, if MyApp already
    exists, it should respect the local changes made to the theme for that
    application.

    I don't understand the part about generating DBIC schemas. Right now when I
    need to change the schema because the sql has changed during development I
    do this:

    rm seminar.db
    sqlite3 seminar.db < seminar.sql
    ./script/seminar_create.pl model DB DBIC::Schema Seminar::Schema
    create=static components=InflateColumn::FS dbi:SQLite:seminar.db

    What are you proposing to change/improve?

    regards,
    Francesc
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  • Zbigniew Lukasiak at Jun 5, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Devin Austinwrote:
    Howdy all,

    I've put together an RFC for the new Catalyst::Helper API.
    The body text is located below, but it is also available here in a pretty
    formatted
    version:http://www.codedright.net/2009/06/rfc-catalysthelper-api.html

    For the improvement of the Catalyst::Helper API and Catalyst development in
    general, comments are of the utmost importance.? The more feedback
    I can get, the better and quicker the API will be completed.

    Thank you kindly!

    -dhoss

    Intro:
    This document is to get opinions on a new, up to date set up? and
    refactoring of the Catalyst::Helper API.

    What We Have
    Currently, all template/image data is hideously store inline with code in
    the __DATA__ section of Catalyst::Helper.pm.? The API is designed to handle
    data this way, which is wrong wrong wrong for a number of reasons:

    ?You have to actually delve into Catalyst internals to edit any of these
    files
    ?If you create a helper, your data must be inline as well.
    ?Its current layout does not reflect the directory hierarchy of a Catalyst
    application, thus making it pretty dang hard to expand upon/upgrade.

    There are no methods to allow you to edit previously created files, unless
    you want to create your own helper and feverishly create your own file
    modification method(s).
    I can attest to the stress this causes, as I've been doing a good deal of
    yak shaving cleaning this code up and creating the proper tests for it.
    It's not a very fun ordeal at this point.

    What we want
    From the feedback I've gathered thus far:

    We do want previously created helper files to be modifiable via
    Catalyst::Helpers.? For instance, updating Makefile.PL, updating myapp.conf
    to reflect changes, updating DBIC schema files to reflect database changes
    (with minimal pain). Also, add an infrastructure for modifying existing
    catalyst code, e.g. moving Catalyst::Helper::AuthDBIC from an? experimental
    proof of concept to something that people might actually want to use for
    their own stuff.

    We do want to be able to remove a good deal of the boilerplate code that
    still seems to need to be created manually, for each app, even though it's
    the exact same code for each instance.

    We do want to set up the helper files in the hierarchy that a Catalyst
    application is created in, thus cutting quickly to the chase in the way of
    creating an app.? It's a simple name and Template::Toolkit variable
    translation, then writing the file to the filesystem process then.? This
    gets our binary data out of the API code, the template data out of the API
    code, and generally makes every one more happy.

    With this said, here are some more specific ideas that have been passed my
    way that I think would really help further advance our precious Helper API:

    ?Beat up MooseX::Getopt to deal with pass-through options, so you can deal
    with passing data structures as arguments easier. Not to mention actually
    start USING it in the Helper API.
    Add a feature to write out DBIC schema files for deployment.? Yes,
    make_schema_at does this, but you have to write your own little script to
    enjoy this morsel of functionality.? It would be nice to have it packaged up
    and ready to go for you.
    Have something like TTSite, but less sucky.? Perhaps there could be a
    default layout that can be created, or you can create your own sort of skin
    and have that the default generation.? Or, better yet, packaged skins that
    users can submit to $somewhere and have the author choose a "theme" for
    their app. For instance, using $javascript framework and $css framework to
    do so, like in chapt 11 of the upcoming book (Example usage:
    http://www.uow.edu.au/~kd21/)

    These are the current ideas I have, and that others have submitted.? Sure
    this RFC is a bit bare, but we don't have a whole ton to work with at the
    moment with Catalyst::Helper, so we need more feedback to beef things up.
    Hi,

    All that you mention above are great steps ahead - and it'll be
    wonderful if they are implemented. If I may add something to that
    list - it is a possibility to run the helpers in aggregation - so that
    you could define the configuration once for all the parts and then run
    catalyst.pl to generate the whole application in one step. Currently
    you run catalyst.pl from the outside - and then you go into the
    generated directory and use one of the generated scripts to generate
    the further components. In theory it should be possible that all that
    generation is done by catalyst.pl.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
  • Devin Austin at Jun 6, 2009 at 3:22 am

    On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Devin Austinwrote:
    Howdy all,

    I've put together an RFC for the new Catalyst::Helper API.
    The body text is located below, but it is also available here in a pretty
    formatted
    version:http://www.codedright.net/2009/06/rfc-catalysthelper-api.html

    For the improvement of the Catalyst::Helper API and Catalyst development in
    general, comments are of the utmost importance. The more feedback
    I can get, the better and quicker the API will be completed.

    Thank you kindly!

    -dhoss

    Intro:
    This document is to get opinions on a new, up to date set up and
    refactoring of the Catalyst::Helper API.

    What We Have
    Currently, all template/image data is hideously store inline with code in
    the __DATA__ section of Catalyst::Helper.pm. The API is designed to handle
    data this way, which is wrong wrong wrong for a number of reasons:

    You have to actually delve into Catalyst internals to edit any of these
    files
    If you create a helper, your data must be inline as well.
    Its current layout does not reflect the directory hierarchy of a Catalyst
    application, thus making it pretty dang hard to expand upon/upgrade.

    There are no methods to allow you to edit previously created files, unless
    you want to create your own helper and feverishly create your own file
    modification method(s).
    I can attest to the stress this causes, as I've been doing a good deal of
    yak shaving cleaning this code up and creating the proper tests for it.
    It's not a very fun ordeal at this point.

    What we want
    From the feedback I've gathered thus far:

    We do want previously created helper files to be modifiable via
    Catalyst::Helpers. For instance, updating Makefile.PL, updating
    myapp.conf
    to reflect changes, updating DBIC schema files to reflect database changes
    (with minimal pain). Also, add an infrastructure for modifying existing
    catalyst code, e.g. moving Catalyst::Helper::AuthDBIC from an
    experimental
    proof of concept to something that people might actually want to use for
    their own stuff.

    We do want to be able to remove a good deal of the boilerplate code that
    still seems to need to be created manually, for each app, even though it's
    the exact same code for each instance.

    We do want to set up the helper files in the hierarchy that a Catalyst
    application is created in, thus cutting quickly to the chase in the way of
    creating an app. It's a simple name and Template::Toolkit variable
    translation, then writing the file to the filesystem process then. This
    gets our binary data out of the API code, the template data out of the API
    code, and generally makes every one more happy.

    With this said, here are some more specific ideas that have been passed my
    way that I think would really help further advance our precious Helper API:
    Beat up MooseX::Getopt to deal with pass-through options, so you can deal
    with passing data structures as arguments easier. Not to mention actually
    start USING it in the Helper API.
    Add a feature to write out DBIC schema files for deployment. Yes,
    make_schema_at does this, but you have to write your own little script to
    enjoy this morsel of functionality. It would be nice to have it packaged up
    and ready to go for you.
    Have something like TTSite, but less sucky. Perhaps there could be a
    default layout that can be created, or you can create your own sort of skin
    and have that the default generation. Or, better yet, packaged skins that
    users can submit to $somewhere and have the author choose a "theme" for
    their app. For instance, using $javascript framework and $css framework to
    do so, like in chapt 11 of the upcoming book (Example usage:
    http://www.uow.edu.au/~kd21/ <http://www.uow.edu.au/%7Ekd21/>)

    These are the current ideas I have, and that others have submitted. Sure
    this RFC is a bit bare, but we don't have a whole ton to work with at the
    moment with Catalyst::Helper, so we need more feedback to beef things up.
    Hi,

    All that you mention above are great steps ahead - and it'll be
    wonderful if they are implemented. If I may add something to that
    list - it is a possibility to run the helpers in aggregation - so that
    you could define the configuration once for all the parts and then run
    catalyst.pl to generate the whole application in one step. Currently
    you run catalyst.pl from the outside - and then you go into the
    generated directory and use one of the generated scripts to generate
    the further components. In theory it should be possible that all that
    generation is done by catalyst.pl.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

    _______________________________________________
    Catalyst-dev mailing list
    Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
    http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
    Hi Zbigniew,

    Thanks for the input! (Thanks to Francesc as well, I didn't thank you in my
    last email).

    Perhaps you could flesh out your idea some? Give me an example of how it
    would look in usage, I think I'm visualizing it properly, but some concrete
    examples would be superb.

    Thanks again!

    -Devin

    --
    Devin Austin
    http://www.codedright.net
    http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost!
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  • Zbigniew Lukasiak at Jun 17, 2009 at 11:00 am
    On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Devin Austin wrote:
    On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:51 AM, Devin Austin<devin.austin@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    Howdy all,

    I've put together an RFC for the new Catalyst::Helper API.
    The body text is located below, but it is also available here in a pretty
    formatted
    version:http://www.codedright.net/2009/06/rfc-catalysthelper-api.html

    For the improvement of the Catalyst::Helper API and Catalyst development in
    general, comments are of the utmost importance. The more feedback
    I can get, the better and quicker the API will be completed.

    Thank you kindly!

    -dhoss

    Intro:
    This document is to get opinions on a new, up to date set up and
    refactoring of the Catalyst::Helper API.

    What We Have
    Currently, all template/image data is hideously store inline with code in
    the __DATA__ section of Catalyst::Helper.pm. The API is designed to handle
    data this way, which is wrong wrong wrong for a number of reasons:

    You have to actually delve into Catalyst internals to edit any of these
    files
    If you create a helper, your data must be inline as well.
    Its current layout does not reflect the directory hierarchy of a Catalyst
    application, thus making it pretty dang hard to expand upon/upgrade.

    There are no methods to allow you to edit previously created files, unless
    you want to create your own helper and feverishly create your own file
    modification method(s).
    I can attest to the stress this causes, as I've been doing a good deal of
    yak shaving cleaning this code up and creating the proper tests for it.
    It's not a very fun ordeal at this point.

    What we want
    From the feedback I've gathered thus far:

    We do want previously created helper files to be modifiable via
    Catalyst::Helpers. For instance, updating Makefile.PL, updating
    myapp.conf
    to reflect changes, updating DBIC schema files to reflect database changes
    (with minimal pain). Also, add an infrastructure for modifying existing
    catalyst code, e.g. moving Catalyst::Helper::AuthDBIC from an
    experimental
    proof of concept to something that people might actually want to use for
    their own stuff.

    We do want to be able to remove a good deal of the boilerplate code that
    still seems to need to be created manually, for each app, even though it's
    the exact same code for each instance.

    We do want to set up the helper files in the hierarchy that a Catalyst
    application is created in, thus cutting quickly to the chase in the way of
    creating an app. It's a simple name and Template::Toolkit variable
    translation, then writing the file to the filesystem process then. This
    gets our binary data out of the API code, the template data out of the API
    code, and generally makes every one more happy.

    With this said, here are some more specific ideas that have been passed my
    way that I think would really help further advance our precious Helper API:
    Beat up MooseX::Getopt to deal with pass-through options, so you can deal
    with passing data structures as arguments easier. Not to mention actually
    start USING it in the Helper API.
    Add a feature to write out DBIC schema files for deployment. Yes,
    make_schema_at does this, but you have to write your own little script to
    enjoy this morsel of functionality. It would be nice to have it
    packaged up
    and ready to go for you.
    Have something like TTSite, but less sucky. Perhaps there could be a
    default layout that can be created, or you can create your own sort of skin
    and have that the default generation. Or, better yet, packaged skins that
    users can submit to $somewhere and have the author choose a "theme" for
    their app. For instance, using $javascript framework and $css framework to
    do so, like in chapt 11 of the upcoming book (Example usage:
    http://www.uow.edu.au/~kd21/ <http://www.uow.edu.au/%7Ekd21/>)

    These are the current ideas I have, and that others have submitted. Sure
    this RFC is a bit bare, but we don't have a whole ton to work with at the
    moment with Catalyst::Helper, so we need more feedback to beef things
    up.

    Hi,

    All that you mention above are great steps ahead - and it'll be
    wonderful if they are implemented. If I may add something to that
    list - it is a possibility to run the helpers in aggregation - so that
    you could define the configuration once for all the parts and then run
    catalyst.pl to generate the whole application in one step. Currently
    you run catalyst.pl from the outside - and then you go into the
    generated directory and use one of the generated scripts to generate
    the further components. In theory it should be possible that all that
    generation is done by catalyst.pl.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/

    _______________________________________________
    Catalyst-dev mailing list
    Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
    http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
    Hi Zbigniew,

    Thanks for the input! (Thanks to Francesc as well, I didn't thank you in
    my last email).

    Perhaps you could flesh out your idea some? Give me an example of how it
    would look in usage, I think I'm visualizing it properly, but some concrete
    examples would be superb.

    I think the beginning would be to just let catalyst.pl run all the other
    helpers.
    Like:

    catalyst.pl MyApp model CatalystModelName DBIC::Schema MyApp::SchemaClass

    So you just add the MyApp at the start - and the rest goes just like it was
    my_app_create.pl.

    If that is done - this should open the possibilities for all the other
    modifications.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew

    Thanks again!

    -Devin


    --
    Devin Austin
    http://www.codedright.net
    http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost!

    _______________________________________________
    Catalyst-dev mailing list
    Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
    http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev

    --
    Zbigniew Lukasiak
    http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
    http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
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  • Tomas Doran at Jun 17, 2009 at 11:05 pm

    On 17 Jun 2009, at 12:00, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:
    I think the beginning would be to just let catalyst.pl run all the
    other helpers.
    Like:

    catalyst.pl MyApp model CatalystModelName DBIC::Schema
    MyApp::SchemaClass

    So you just add the MyApp at the start - and the rest goes just
    like it was my_app_create.pl.

    If that is done - this should open the possibilities for all the
    other modifications.
    I don't see how this helps or hinders?

    Surely it means that catalyst.pl checks if it can 'cd' into the
    directory named by its first argument, then executes script/
    myapp_create.pl @ARGV[1..$#ARGV];

    ??

    Please point out what I'm missing....

    Cheers
    t0m
  • Zbigniew Lukasiak at Jun 18, 2009 at 6:25 am
    On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:05 AM, Tomas Doran wrote:
    On 17 Jun 2009, at 12:00, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    I think the beginning would be to just let catalyst.pl run all the other
    helpers.
    Like:

    catalyst.pl MyApp model CatalystModelName DBIC::Schema MyApp::SchemaClass

    So you just add the MyApp at the start - and the rest goes just like it
    was my_app_create.pl.

    If that is done - this should open the possibilities for all the other
    modifications.
    I don't see how this helps or hinders?

    Surely it means that catalyst.pl checks if it can 'cd' into the directory
    named by its first argument, then executes script/myapp_create.pl
    @ARGV[1..$#ARGV];
    Hmm - I was thinking that running the helpers directly in Perl gives you
    more control, but maybe you are right and it is more pragmatic to just
    execute them via shell.
  • Tomas Doran at Jun 18, 2009 at 8:03 am

    On 18 Jun 2009, at 07:25, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:
    Hmm - I was thinking that running the helpers directly in Perl
    gives you more control, but maybe you are right and it is more
    pragmatic to just execute them via shell.
    But, you're running script/myapp_create.pl Foo Bar anyway - no shell
    involved, and we can already change the behavior of that script?

    Cheers
    t0m
  • Zbigniew Lukasiak at Jul 27, 2009 at 6:17 pm
    On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Tomas Doranwrote:
    On 18 Jun 2009, at 07:25, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    Hmm - I was thinking that running the helpers directly in Perl gives you
    more control, but maybe you are right and it is more pragmatic to just
    execute them via shell.
    But, you're running script/myapp_create.pl Foo Bar anyway - no shell
    involved, and we can already change the behavior of that script?
    I am using:

    $helper->mk_app( $appname ) # this one works
    ...
    $helper->mk_component ( # this one is where the problem is

    i.e. I use the helper API. Unfortunately this checks $FindBin::Bin -
    so it can be only run by a script in the right place (and that place
    does not exists before the app is created) or else it requires an ugly
    hack. What I would like to have is mk_component that would work
    independently from where the binary is.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew
  • Devin Austin at Jul 27, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Tomas Doranwrote:
    On 18 Jun 2009, at 07:25, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote:

    Hmm - I was thinking that running the helpers directly in Perl gives you
    more control, but maybe you are right and it is more pragmatic to just
    execute them via shell.
    But, you're running script/myapp_create.pl Foo Bar anyway - no shell
    involved, and we can already change the behavior of that script?
    I am using:

    $helper->mk_app( $appname ) # this one works
    ...
    $helper->mk_component ( # this one is where the problem is

    i.e. I use the helper API. Unfortunately this checks $FindBin::Bin -
    so it can be only run by a script in the right place (and that place
    does not exists before the app is created) or else it requires an ugly
    hack. What I would like to have is mk_component that would work
    independently from where the binary is.

    Cheers,
    Zbigniew

    _______________________________________________
    Catalyst-dev mailing list
    Catalyst-dev@lists.scsys.co.uk
    http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/catalyst-dev
    Zbigniew:

    I am working as we speak on unfucking Catalyst::Helper, ie Moosificating,
    and making it much much much more sane to use as an API. Bear with me, but
    please keep the notes coming on what's not working.

    Thanks,

    -Devin

    --
    Devin Austin
    http://www.codedright.net
    http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?326568/hosting.html - Host with DreamHost!
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postedJun 4, '09 at 2:51a
activeJul 27, '09 at 9:56p
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