Hello group,
First a compliment - this software is great how it just works out of the box! I know it has taken you all a while to get it there, but it is much appreciated by newbies like myself.

In my research I have a need for federating several brokers together. So I have some experiments I have been doing to learn the ins and outs of how it all works. For now I have 3 systems each with 1 broker. The idea is this represents a hierarchy that is 3 deep [not very broad at the moment 8-) ]. In my experiments I am wanting a "shared bus" for logging. This means that for clients on any machine, messages to the federated log exchange will be seen on all other machines, including itself. As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.

I played around with the hop count, but that did not really solve any problems other than eventually stopping the forwarding of a given message...as it should. So I am starting to think of alternative configurations that can give me the behavior of 1 msg to a client, distributing the message to all nodes in the network, be efficient of course, and also minimize the knowledge required at each of the nodes/clients so as to allow easy administration as the network grows. I would hate to have to be reconfiguring existing clients and brokers each time a new node is added to grow the overall network.

I have thought of introducing 'flow-up' exchanges and other means of directing the flow up/down the tree...these mental gynastics lead me to duplicate messages or too much topology information being needed. I also considered routing rules where perhaps the node name is used as the first word in the route [node2.log.critical]...to work I would define an exchange/queue binding that did a match on everything EXCEPT my node. Alas I could not find anything that allowed 'not' matching part of a route. It is also likely that we may not settle on a tree hierarchy but may allow a graph so as to allow path duplication; but that decision is still open.

I've looked through all posts since June 22 to see what others are encountering with federation...sadly not too many people seem to be using it. So, is there any hope for me?

Thanks in advance...

John Letourneau, DMTS topgun at bell-labs.com

http://ect-bell-labs.com/who/topgun/
Applications Research Domain
Bell Labs

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  • Busoli, Simone at Jan 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm
    Hi John, I'm not sure about this:

    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.

    It shouldn't be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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  • Letourneau, John P (John) at Jan 3, 2012 at 3:51 pm
    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)
    3 nodes...call them N1, N2, N3.
    On each I have federation configured.
    N2 - exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log
    N3 - exchange log, connects to N2/log
    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to N2/log; will need to find out why sometime.
    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log message is, everyone everywhere will see it.

    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent layers...N2 being the busy one with a layer above and below.
    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go to N2 and not N3 [this is correct].
    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3...it will also be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg AND the one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also for a total of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3...the message took a total of 4 hops.

    So, this is what I mean by 'one might expect' 8-)
    -John

    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages

    Hi John, I'm not sure about this:

    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.

    It shouldn't be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Questo messaggio e da intendersi esclusivamente ad uso del destinatario e puo contenere informazioni che sono di natura privilegiata, confidenziale
    o non divulgabile secondo le leggi vigenti. Se il lettore del presente messaggio non e il destinatario designato, o il dipendente/agente responsabile
    per la consegna del messaggio al destinatario designato, si informa che ogni disseminazione, distribuzione o copiatura di questa comunicazione e
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  • Simone Busoli at Jan 3, 2012 at 8:16 pm
    Inline
    On Jan 3, 2012 4:52 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)" wrote:

    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)

    3 nodes?call them N1, N2, N3.

    On each I have federation configured.

    N2 ? exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log

    N3 ? exchange log, connects to N2/log

    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to N2/log;
    will need to find out why sometime.
    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log
    message is, everyone everywhere will see it.

    If this is your aim, can't you simply federate the log exchange on each
    broker with the other two and set max hops to 1?


    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent layers?N2
    being the busy one with a layer above and below.
    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go to
    N2 and not N3 [this is correct].
    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3?it will also
    be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg AND the
    one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also for a total
    of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3?the message took a total of 4
    hops.


    So, this is what I mean by ?one might expect? 8-)

    -John



    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages



    Hi John, I?m not sure about this:



    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1
    time at some clients.


    It shouldn?t be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e.
    disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Questo messaggio e da intendersi esclusivamente ad uso del destinatario e
    puo contenere informazioni che sono di natura privilegiata, confidenziale
    o non divulgabile secondo le leggi vigenti. Se il lettore del presente
    messaggio non e il destinatario designato, o il dipendente/agente
    responsabile
    per la consegna del messaggio al destinatario designato, si informa che
    ogni disseminazione, distribuzione o copiatura di questa comunicazione e
    strettamente proibita anche ai sensi del decreto legislativo 196/03 . Se
    avete ricevuto questo messaggio per errore, vi preghiamo di notificarcelo
    immediatamente a mezzo e-mail di risposta e successivamente di procedere
    alla cancellazione di questa e-mail e relativi allegati dal vostro sistema.
    >
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    contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
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  • Letourneau, John P (John) at Jan 4, 2012 at 11:54 am
    Simone,
    If I were to set hops=1, then a message posted at N1 would go to N2 but will NOT go to N3. This has been verified.
    Similarly a message posted at N3 would go to N2 but NOT go to N1.

    -John

    From: Simone Busoli [mailto:simone.busoli at gmail.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:16 PM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John)
    Cc: Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages


    Inline

    On Jan 3, 2012 4:52 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)" <john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.comwrote:
    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)

    3 nodes...call them N1, N2, N3.

    On each I have federation configured.

    N2 - exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log

    N3 - exchange log, connects to N2/log

    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to N2/log; will need to find out why sometime.

    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log message is, everyone everywhere will see it.
    If this is your aim, can't you simply federate the log exchange on each broker with the other two and set max hops to 1?


    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent layers...N2 being the busy one with a layer above and below.

    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go to N2 and not N3 [this is correct].

    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3...it will also be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg AND the one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also for a total of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3...the message took a total of 4 hops.



    So, this is what I mean by 'one might expect' 8-)

    -John



    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com<mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com>]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com<mailto:rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com>
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages



    Hi John, I'm not sure about this:



    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.



    It shouldn't be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Questo messaggio e da intendersi esclusivamente ad uso del destinatario e puo contenere informazioni che sono di natura privilegiata, confidenziale
    o non divulgabile secondo le leggi vigenti. Se il lettore del presente messaggio non e il destinatario designato, o il dipendente/agente responsabile
    per la consegna del messaggio al destinatario designato, si informa che ogni disseminazione, distribuzione o copiatura di questa comunicazione e
    strettamente proibita anche ai sensi del decreto legislativo 196/03 . Se avete ricevuto questo messaggio per errore, vi preghiamo di notificarcelo
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    This message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
    disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the
    message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
    prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and all attachments from
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  • Busoli, Simone at Jan 4, 2012 at 12:01 pm
    That's true with your current configuration, but if you federate each broker with the other two like I suggested it is going to work.

    From: Letourneau, John P (John) [mailto:john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.com]
    Sent: mercoled? 4 gennaio 2012 12:54
    To: Simone Busoli
    Cc: Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: RE: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages

    Simone,
    If I were to set hops=1, then a message posted at N1 would go to N2 but will NOT go to N3. This has been verified.
    Similarly a message posted at N3 would go to N2 but NOT go to N1.

    -John

    From: Simone Busoli [mailto:simone.busoli at gmail.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:16 PM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John)
    Cc: Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages


    Inline

    On Jan 3, 2012 4:52 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)" <john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.comwrote:
    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)

    3 nodes...call them N1, N2, N3.

    On each I have federation configured.

    N2 - exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log

    N3 - exchange log, connects to N2/log

    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to N2/log; will need to find out why sometime.

    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log message is, everyone everywhere will see it.
    If this is your aim, can't you simply federate the log exchange on each broker with the other two and set max hops to 1?


    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent layers...N2 being the busy one with a layer above and below.

    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go to N2 and not N3 [this is correct].

    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3...it will also be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg AND the one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also for a total of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3...the message took a total of 4 hops.



    So, this is what I mean by 'one might expect' 8-)

    -John



    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com<mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com>]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com<mailto:rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com>
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages



    Hi John, I'm not sure about this:



    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.



    It shouldn't be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Questo messaggio e da intendersi esclusivamente ad uso del destinatario e puo contenere informazioni che sono di natura privilegiata, confidenziale
    o non divulgabile secondo le leggi vigenti. Se il lettore del presente messaggio non e il destinatario designato, o il dipendente/agente responsabile
    per la consegna del messaggio al destinatario designato, si informa che ogni disseminazione, distribuzione o copiatura di questa comunicazione e
    strettamente proibita anche ai sensi del decreto legislativo 196/03 . Se avete ricevuto questo messaggio per errore, vi preghiamo di notificarcelo
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    disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the
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    prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and all attachments from
    your system.
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  • Letourneau, John P (John) at Jan 4, 2012 at 12:27 pm
    Simone,
    Ah, sorry I missed the suggestion to configure a fully interconnected network.
    Yes that would work. However it becomes an administrative nightmare as nodes are added to the network.
    Therefore I don't think this is viable.
    -John

    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:02 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); Simone Busoli
    Cc: rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: RE: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages

    That's true with your current configuration, but if you federate each broker with the other two like I suggested it is going to work.

    From: Letourneau, John P (John) [mailto:john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.com]
    Sent: mercoled? 4 gennaio 2012 12:54
    To: Simone Busoli
    Cc: Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: RE: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages

    Simone,
    If I were to set hops=1, then a message posted at N1 would go to N2 but will NOT go to N3. This has been verified.
    Similarly a message posted at N3 would go to N2 but NOT go to N1.

    -John

    From: Simone Busoli [mailto:simone.busoli at gmail.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:16 PM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John)
    Cc: Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    Subject: Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages


    Inline

    On Jan 3, 2012 4:52 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)" <john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.comwrote:
    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)

    3 nodes...call them N1, N2, N3.

    On each I have federation configured.

    N2 - exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log

    N3 - exchange log, connects to N2/log

    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to N2/log; will need to find out why sometime.

    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log message is, everyone everywhere will see it.
    If this is your aim, can't you simply federate the log exchange on each broker with the other two and set max hops to 1?


    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent layers...N2 being the busy one with a layer above and below.

    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go to N2 and not N3 [this is correct].

    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3...it will also be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg AND the one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also for a total of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3...the message took a total of 4 hops.



    So, this is what I mean by 'one might expect' 8-)

    -John



    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com<mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com>]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com<mailto:rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com>
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages



    Hi John, I'm not sure about this:



    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen >1 time at some clients.



    It shouldn't be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Questo messaggio e da intendersi esclusivamente ad uso del destinatario e puo contenere informazioni che sono di natura privilegiata, confidenziale
    o non divulgabile secondo le leggi vigenti. Se il lettore del presente messaggio non e il destinatario designato, o il dipendente/agente responsabile
    per la consegna del messaggio al destinatario designato, si informa che ogni disseminazione, distribuzione o copiatura di questa comunicazione e
    strettamente proibita anche ai sensi del decreto legislativo 196/03 . Se avete ricevuto questo messaggio per errore, vi preghiamo di notificarcelo
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    disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the
    message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
    prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete this e-mail and all attachments from
    your system.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    _______________________________________________
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    rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com<mailto:rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com>
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  • Simon MacMullen at Jan 5, 2012 at 10:44 am
    We'd like to make managing big federated networks easier. At some point
    we will want to make it possible to modify the federation config of a
    broker without restarting it. In terms of managing the federation as a
    whole, you may want to look into something like puppet or chef.

    Another thing we'd like to add in the future (as always, subject to
    resource constraints) is loop detection in federation - this would
    alleviate your problem I imagine.

    Cheers, Simon
    On 04/01/12 12:27, Letourneau, John P (John) wrote:
    Simone,

    Ah, sorry I missed the suggestion to configure a fully interconnected
    network.

    Yes that would work. However it becomes an administrative nightmare as
    nodes are added to the network.

    Therefore I don?t think this is viable.

    -John

    *From:*Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com]
    *Sent:* Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:02 AM
    *To:* Letourneau, John P (John); Simone Busoli
    *Cc:* rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    *Subject:* RE: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate
    Messages

    That?s true with your current configuration, but if you federate each
    broker with the other two like I suggested it is going to work.

    *From:*Letourneau, John P (John)
    [mailto:john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.com]
    *Sent:* mercoled? 4 gennaio 2012 12:54
    *To:* Simone Busoli
    *Cc:* Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    *Subject:* RE: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate
    Messages

    Simone,

    If I were to set hops=1, then a message posted at N1 would go to N2 but
    will NOT go to N3. This has been verified.

    Similarly a message posted at N3 would go to N2 but NOT go to N1.

    -John

    *From:*Simone Busoli [mailto:simone.busoli at gmail.com]
    *Sent:* Tuesday, January 03, 2012 3:16 PM
    *To:* Letourneau, John P (John)
    *Cc:* Busoli, Simone; rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    *Subject:* Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] Federation Configuration and Duplicate
    Messages

    Inline

    On Jan 3, 2012 4:52 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)"
    <john.letourneau at alcatel-lucent.com
    wrote:
    Well, perhaps a bit more about my configuration 8-)

    3 nodes?call them N1, N2, N3.

    On each I have federation configured.

    N2 ? exchange log, connects to N1/log and N3/log

    N3 ? exchange log, connects to N2/log

    Right now I cannot seem to have the N1 exchange log connect to
    N2/log; will need to find out why sometime.
    I do it this way so that regardless of where the producer of the log
    message is, everyone everywhere will see it.

    If this is your aim, can't you simply federate the log exchange on each
    broker with the other two and set max hops to 1?


    Each layer in the hierarchy only knows about nodes in adjacent
    layers?N2 being the busy one with a layer above and below.
    If everyone has hops=1, sending a log message to N1/log will only go
    to N2 and not N3 [this is correct].
    Setting hops=4, sending a log to N1/log will go to N2 and N3?it will
    also be returned to N2 thus a consumer on N2 will see the original msg
    AND the one sent via N2/N3 federation link. Also N3 sees it twice also
    for a total of once on N1, twice on N2, and twice on N3?the message took
    a total of 4 hops.


    So, this is what I mean by ?one might expect? 8-)

    -John



    From: Busoli, Simone [mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com
    <mailto:Simone.Busoli at ferrari.com>]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:23 AM
    To: Letourneau, John P (John); rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com
    <mailto:rabbitmq-discuss at lists.rabbitmq.com>
    Subject: RE: Federation Configuration and Duplicate Messages



    Hi John, I?m not sure about this:



    As one might expect, this sometimes results in the message being seen
    1 time at some clients.



    It shouldn?t be the expected behavior except for certain scenarios
    (i.e. disconnection of the brokers). Am I missing something perhaps?
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  • Simone Busoli at Jan 4, 2012 at 9:16 pm
    Hi John, I understand your purpose now, and unfortunately I don't think
    it's going to be easy to achieve that if you don't federate the brokers
    with each other in a symmetric fashion.
    I am also wondering if that would be advisable at all nonetheless, it would
    become quite difficult to visualize how messages are flowing around.

    Anyway keep in mind that federated exchanges can also be configured
    dynamically over AMQP, therefore as long as you keep the hosts fixed (those
    need to be in the configuration files) you can federate more exchanges as
    you go.
    I'm not sure this satisfies your requirements by the way.
    On Jan 4, 2012 1:27 PM, "Letourneau, John P (John)" wrote:
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