FAQ
This silly google-groups does not reflect changed subject lines!!
That means that GG users who may want to read this may not see it.
So reposting as a new thread:
--------------------------------------
Here's what I do to manage the GG-headaches:


1. Firefox needs to have the "Its all text" addon installed
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/its-all-text/


2. Set the editor in "Its all text" to emacs
    [You can use anything? including pure python? more on that below]


3. Put the following into your emacs init
-----------------
;; Clean up Google Groups extra newlines containing only "> "


(defun clean-gg ()
   (interactive)
   (replace-regexp "^> *\n> *\n> *$" "-=\=-" nil 0 (point-max))
   (flush-lines "> *$" 0 (point-max))
   (replace-regexp "-=\=-" "" nil 0 (point-max))
; (save-buffers-kill-terminal t)
)




(global-set-key (kbd "<f9>") 'clean-gg)


;(push 'clean-gg find-file-hook)
----------------


Now firefox will show a small new "edit" edit button in the text window.
Clicking that puts you into emacs with the text of the message.


F9 will cleanup the double-spaces.


Depending on whether you are comfortable with emacs or not you can do
either of:


1. Continue editing in emacs.
    M-q and/or auto-fill-mode will clean up long-line paras
    Save-quit will put you back into firefox with cleaned up text


2. Not comfortable with emacs? Just F9 and save-quit will get you back
    to emacs with cleaned up double-spaced text.
    The long lines problem remains in this case.


Dont like emacs?


1. If you know how to write similar code for vi (or whatever) you are
    set.
2. You can also setup emacs to cleanup and close immediately
3. You can also setup your 'editor' to be a pure python script
    [Ive not got round to doing it because I'm not sure how to
    catch-report errors in a proper cross-platform way.]
4. If you are a javascript/greasemonkey expert I guess you can convert
    the emacs-code to JS/GM code and that would be a zero-click
    solution.


Usually use emacs? (ie have it running usually)
You may prefer emacsclient to emacs for the editor.
It will be more instantaneous.

Search Discussions

  • Chris Angelico at Nov 28, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:52 AM, rusi wrote:
    Here's what I do to manage the GG-headaches:

    Useful tips, I am sure, but they solve the problem only for you.
    Everyone who reads python-list/c.l.p will have to implement equivalent
    patches. Every archive of the newsgroup or mailing list suffers from
    the same problems, too, and it's not going to be easy to solve that
    for people.


    The true solution is either to fix Google Groups or to not use it.


    ChrisA
  • Rusi at Nov 28, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    On Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:28:14 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:52 AM, rusi wrote:
    Here's what I do to manage the GG-headaches:
    Useful tips, I am sure, but they solve the problem only for you.
    Everyone who reads python-list/c.l.p will have to implement equivalent
    patches. Every archive of the newsgroup or mailing list suffers from
    the same problems, too, and it's not going to be easy to solve that
    for people.

    The problems with GG as I understand are
    1. Double spacing
    2. Long lines


    As far as I can see both are cured with the method outlined.
    If its not for others and only for me, I'd like to know.
    That 2 is a problem was only brought to my notice recently.
    And so my fix for it is recent.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 28, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:17 AM, rusi wrote:
    The problems with GG as I understand are
    1. Double spacing
    2. Long lines

    As far as I can see both are cured with the method outlined.
    If its not for others and only for me, I'd like to know.
    That 2 is a problem was only brought to my notice recently.
    And so my fix for it is recent.

    Yes. Those are the problems. Are you suggesting this as a way to post
    via GG without it being a nuisance, or to read news without seeing
    those problems? If the former, it is surely far FAR easier to just
    read and write mail on python-list, or use Thunderbird, or somesuch,
    than to go through these hoops just to be able to keep using buggy
    software. People won't do it. And if the latter, well, that's my point
    about it solving things only for you.


    In fact, either way, it solves things only for you. The problem is
    that there are a huge number of users who are not you.


    ChrisA
  • Rusi at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    On Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:55:52 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:17 AM, rusi wrote:
    The problems with GG as I understand are
    1. Double spacing
    2. Long lines
    As far as I can see both are cured with the method outlined.
    If its not for others and only for me, I'd like to know.
    That 2 is a problem was only brought to my notice recently.
    And so my fix for it is recent.
    Yes. Those are the problems. Are you suggesting this as a way to post
    via GG without it being a nuisance, or to read news without seeing
    those problems?

    The former.

    If the former, it is surely far FAR easier to just
    read and write mail on python-list, or use Thunderbird, or somesuch,
    than to go through these hoops just to be able to keep using buggy
    software.

    Its a one time setup -- as is thunderbird.


    Its really quite unclear to me why GG is a problem if all the problems
    of GG are obviated.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rusi wrote:
    Its really quite unclear to me why GG is a problem if all the problems
    of GG are obviated.

    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With
    your setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it
    to work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this
    works straight off, no setup necessary.


    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.


    ChrisA
  • Michael Torrie at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    On 11/28/2013 08:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With
    your setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it
    to work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this
    works straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.

    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail. Python is the only list I'm on that has a
    usenet gateway.


    I used to love usenet back in the day, but in the present internet
    climate makes it unworkable, though I concede that e-mail is reaching
    the end of its usefulness as well.


    I wouldn't oppose a dual e-mail list and web-based forum system,
    provided the forum system supported threaded conversations in a clean
    and useful way (maybe like google wave used to).
  • Travis Griggs at Nov 28, 2013 at 4:23 pm
    Sent from my iPhone

    On Nov 28, 2013, at 7:40, Michael Torrie wrote:

    On 11/28/2013 08:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With
    your setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it
    to work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this
    works straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail. Python is the only list I'm on that has a
    usenet gateway.

    I used to love usenet back in the day, but in the present internet
    climate makes it unworkable, though I concede that e-mail is reaching
    the end of its usefulness as well.

    I wouldn't oppose a dual e-mail list and web-based forum system,
    provided the forum system supported threaded conversations in a clean
    and useful way (maybe like google wave used to).
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

    Here! Here! Well said and amen. My thoughts exactly.
  • Ned Batchelder at Nov 28, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    On 11/28/13 11:23 AM, Travis Griggs wrote:

    Sent from my iPhone
    On Nov 28, 2013, at 7:40, Michael Torrie wrote:

    On 11/28/2013 08:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With
    your setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it
    to work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this
    works straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail. Python is the only list I'm on that has a
    usenet gateway.

    I used to love usenet back in the day, but in the present internet
    climate makes it unworkable, though I concede that e-mail is reaching
    the end of its usefulness as well.

    I wouldn't oppose a dual e-mail list and web-based forum system,
    provided the forum system supported threaded conversations in a clean
    and useful way (maybe like google wave used to).
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
    Here! Here! Well said and amen. My thoughts exactly.

    Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this
    as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to
    being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate
    topologies.


    --Ned.
  • Michael Torrie at Nov 28, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this
    as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to
    being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate
    topologies.

    That may well be the majority sentiment here. I only state my opinion.


    Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
    usenet side of things. Such as trolls or spam. For example a certain
    iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats from half a
    dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all. Despite many calls
    to banish him from the list for his blatant disregard for list
    etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible. Although I'm sure some
    would argue that's a good thing to be unable to kick offenders off the list.


    I've used mailing lists for many years and they seem to be a good
    compromise between an open community and a controlled forum.
  • Terry Reedy at Nov 28, 2013 at 10:44 pm

    On 11/28/2013 1:29 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:


    Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
    usenet side of things. Such as trolls or spam. ...
    Despite many calls to banish [such] ...
    with usenet it's just not possible.

    The usenet gateway has been changed recently to no longer pass
    everything to python-list (and on to gmane) without question. If you
    want the benefit of such moderation as there is, use either of those two.


    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
  • Rusi at Nov 28, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this
    as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to
    being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate
    topologies.
    That may well be the majority sentiment here. I only state my opinion.

    Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
    usenet side of things. Such as trolls or spam. For example a certain
    iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats from half a
    dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all. Despite many calls
    to banish him from the list for his blatant disregard for list
    etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible. Although I'm sure some
    would argue that's a good thing to be unable to kick offenders off the list.

    Do you realize that that person was not using GG?


    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
        spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
  • Michael Torrie at Nov 28, 2013 at 6:50 pm

    On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
    Do you realize that that person was not using GG?

    I do but he was using usenet.

    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.

    What they have in common is usenet. Ditching usenet would solve both
    problems.
  • Rusi at Nov 28, 2013 at 7:00 pm

    On Friday, November 29, 2013 12:07:29 AM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
    On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this
    as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to
    being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate
    topologies.
    That may well be the majority sentiment here. I only state my opinion.

    Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
    usenet side of things. Such as trolls or spam. For example a certain
    iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats from half a
    dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all. Despite many calls
    to banish him from the list for his blatant disregard for list
    etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible. Although I'm sure some
    would argue that's a good thing to be unable to kick offenders off the list.
    Do you realize that that person was not using GG?

    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.

    To add to that:
    1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post
    2. In an adjacent thread there is the mess due to html mail
    3. Sometime ago there was a long argument around the old and unsettled:
        Reply vs Reply-all debate


    All these are due to NON use of GG.
    Does that mean everyone should use GG?
    Heck no!


    Just this: Technology will occasionally have problems and these can
    usually be solved technically.
  • Walter Hurry at Nov 28, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:00:22 -0800, rusi wrote:

    On Friday, November 29, 2013 12:07:29 AM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
    On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie
    wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep
    this as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but
    I'll admit to being confused about what people have been proposing
    for alternate topologies.
    That may well be the majority sentiment here. I only state my
    opinion.

    Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
    usenet side of things. Such as trolls or spam. For example a
    certain iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats
    from half a dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all.
    Despite many calls to banish him from the list for his blatant
    disregard for list etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible.
    Although I'm sure some would argue that's a good thing to be unable
    to kick offenders off the list.
    Do you realize that that person was not using GG?

    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve 2. All
    kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there
    are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    To add to that:
    1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post 2. In an adjacent
    thread there is the mess due to html mail 3. Sometime ago there was a
    long argument around the old and unsettled:
    Reply vs Reply-all debate

    All these are due to NON use of GG.
    Does that mean everyone should use GG?
    Heck no!

    Just this: Technology will occasionally have problems and these can
    usually be solved technically.

    All true, but the fact remains that the vast majority of GG posters can't
    be bothered to do the necessary, or are too stupid, or simply don't care.


    You are the exception which proves the rule. I'm with Chris Angelico on
    this one.
  • Michael Torrie at Nov 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm
    My point was that the list problems in general seem to be related to
    usenet. GG formatting, spam, trolls. I guess I should have changed the
    subject line. Ditching usenet solves the GG problem and a number of
    other problems as well.

    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    To add to that:
    1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post

    Again, sure this was not due to GG, but it was due to a usenet client.
    So again, while usenet isn't the problem per se here, moving away from
    usenet would have prevented that particular problem.

    2. In an adjacent thread there is the mess due to html mail

    Guess I never see this since I use thunderbird and I can configure it to
    always show plain text.

    3. Sometime ago there was a long argument around the old and unsettled:
    Reply vs Reply-all debate

    I think the debate was not that but rather should the list messages
    default to reply to list or reply to sender. And I haven't seen that
    argument in many years now. Certainly not in the context of usenet vs
    e-mail, which I was addressing.
  • Walter Hurry at Nov 28, 2013 at 8:39 pm

    On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:50:47 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

    On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
    Do you realize that that person was not using GG?
    I do but he was using usenet.
    IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
    1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve 2. All
    kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there
    are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    What they have in common is usenet. Ditching usenet would solve both
    problems.

    Sledgehammer to crack a nut IMO. It's only Alister who appears to suffer
    from these "multiple post" problems. And Pan is not the culprit - I'm
    using Pan on both Linux and FreeBSD without issues, as doubtless are many
    others.
  • Arif Khokar at Nov 29, 2013 at 12:46 am

    On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    What they have in common is usenet. Ditching usenet would solve both
    problems.

    The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e.,
    killfiles). I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated
    groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through). I'm sure
    that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts
    on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have
    those problems.


    The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult to
    browse archived posts to this group. After I subscribed to this group
    (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately browse
    posts made as far back as April.
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 29, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    On 29/11/2013 00:46, Arif Khokar wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:

    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones
    there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    What they have in common is usenet. Ditching usenet would solve both
    problems.
    The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e.,
    killfiles). I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated
    groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through). I'm sure
    that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts
    on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have
    those problems.

    Read through gmane, it's effectively spam free.


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 29, 2013 at 4:17 pm

    On 2013-11-29, Arif Khokar wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:

    2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
    What they have in common is usenet. Ditching usenet would solve both
    problems.
    The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e.,
    killfiles). I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated
    groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through). I'm sure
    that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts
    on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have
    those problems.

    The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult to
    browse archived posts to this group. After I subscribed to this group
    (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately browse
    posts made as far back as April.

    You're assuming that Usenet === NNTP. You can point your news client
    at gmane.org's NNTP server and get all the benefits of "news" for
    regular mailing lists.


    --
    Grant
  • Cameron Simpson at Dec 4, 2013 at 12:38 am

    On 28Nov2013 19:46, Arif Khokar wrote:
    The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult
    to browse archived posts to this group. After I subscribed to this
    group (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately
    browse posts made as far back as April.

    I vastly prefer email.


    My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
    archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
    mailman at least.


    Example:


       get-mailman-archive http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/ >python-mac.mbox


    I then suck the whole thing into the folder to which future list
    posts will get filed. That way I have the whole archive, and it is
    local, and I can examine it with whatever tools take my fancy
    (mairix, mutt, grep, etc).


    Most mailman lists make their archives readily available.


    This cannot be said for the travesty that is Google Groups, and in
    fact almost any other list/group/forum run with other software.


    Really, most mailing list archives are easily small enough to do
    this routinely.


    Happy to assist anyone with scripts etc.


    Cheers,
    --
    Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>


    Carpe Daemon - Seize the Background Process
             - Paul Tomblin <ab401@freenet2.carleton.ca>
  • Rusi at Dec 4, 2013 at 1:39 am

    On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
    Dennis Lee Bieber writes:
    [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
    NNTP clients
    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
    - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch



    In a similar vein, most phones nowadays are just computers
    with a pocket-size form-factor and some wireless networking.


    So when you say?

    My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
    archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
    mailman at least.

    and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
    functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
    all your mailing-lists with all of them?


    I know friends who have installed a home-data-store?


    [Ive been resisting getting something like a NAS because each new
    thingabob I own is one more thing to maintain. I also know from
    past experience that such luddite battles are in the end always
    lost -- Im no technophile but I expect to live and die a techie]


    And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
    to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own. What then?


    The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
    (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
    functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.


    Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
    Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
    on one's own computer? heck no!


    But in the end, uniform access will trump all that -- compare the
    number of vi+emacs+eclipse users with google-doc users?


    So to come back full-circle:


    Earlier (your quote paraphrased)
    Emacs is a full-blown OS -- only lacks a good editor.
    Now: replace 'emacs' with 'firefox'.
  • Chris Angelico at Dec 4, 2013 at 2:03 am

    On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:39 PM, rusi wrote:
    The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
    (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
    functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.

    Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
    Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
    on one's own computer? heck no!

    The solution often is to run your own central server and have all
    devices connect to that. You get full control and still allow any
    device to access the same content.


    ChrisA
  • Cameron Simpson at Dec 4, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
    My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
    archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
    mailman at least.
    and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
    functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
    all your mailing-lists with all of them?

    No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
    lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
    my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
    account accessed by my phone.


    I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
    transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
    when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.


    So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
    a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
    my phone.


    [...]
    And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
    to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own. What then?

    Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
    can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
    about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
    for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
    laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
    can consult what's queuing up.

    The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
    (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
    functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
    Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
    Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
    on one's own computer? heck no!

    I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
    on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
    software.


    Cheers,
    --
    Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>


    All it takes is working on someone elses program to understand why they call
    it "code". - Henry O. Farad <lrc@netcom.com>
  • Rusi at Dec 6, 2013 at 7:42 am

    On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:17:11 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
    On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
    My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
    archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
    mailman at least.
    and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
    functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
    all your mailing-lists with all of them?
    No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
    lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
    my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
    account accessed by my phone.
    I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
    transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
    when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.
    So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
    a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
    my phone.
    [...]
    And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
    to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own. What then?
    Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
    can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
    about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
    for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
    laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
    can consult what's queuing up.
    The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
    (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
    functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
    Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
    Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
    on one's own computer? heck no!
    I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
    on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
    software.

    Thanks Cameron. I am not sure how to parse the last sentence but on the
    whole thanks for a fair balanced and honest review.


    I think I have similar sentiments, viz. I am not one to gush about
    the latest gizmodic blissiness, however whenever Ive resisted and been
    a late adopter -- color monitor, laptop, cellphone, credit card etc
    etc -- in the end Ive had to move with the time and not been
    better-off for my earlier resistance.
  • Zero Piraeus at Nov 28, 2013 at 4:29 pm
    :

    On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 08:40:47AM -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail.

    +1 Hell yes.


    --
    Zero Piraeus: coram publico
    http://etiol.net/pubkey.asc
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 29, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    On 28/11/2013 16:29, Zero Piraeus wrote:
    :
    On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 08:40:47AM -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail.
    +1 Hell yes.

    I'd happily use semaphore but given time you're bound to find someone
    who could screw that up. So I'll stick with Thunderbird and gmane,
    reading some 40-ish Python lists and blogs. Well, I think they're blogs :)


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Terry Reedy at Nov 28, 2013 at 10:32 pm

    On 11/28/2013 10:40 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 11/28/2013 08:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With
    your setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it
    to work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this
    works straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in

    I am beginning to think this also.

    and just go straight e-mail.

    email + gmane newsgroup mirror

    Python is the only list I'm on that has a usenet gateway.

    1000 of techical mlists have a gmane mirror. There are over 200 just for
    Python.


    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 29, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    On 2013-11-28, Zero Piraeus wrote:
    :
    On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 08:40:47AM -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:
    My opinion is that the Python list should dump the Usenet tie-in and
    just go straight e-mail.
    +1 Hell yes.

    I'd have to reluctantly agree. I've been using Usenet for 25 years,
    and I still read this as comp.lang.python, but this is practically the
    only Usenet group left that I follow. There are a number of mailing
    lists I follow via gmane's NNTP server, and I can certainly do the
    same for this one.


    I've been filtering out all postings from GG for years, so it doesn't
    really matter to me, but apparently there are a lot of people with
    defective mail/news clients for whom that's apparently not possible?
    [Otherwise, I don't understand what all the complaining is about.]


    --
    Grant
  • Alister at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 02:08:17 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rusi wrote:
    Its really quite unclear to me why GG is a problem if all the problems
    of GG are obviated.
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With your
    setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it to
    work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this works
    straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.

    ChrisA

    Whilst I agree with Chris A's main points I would at least say thankyou
    for :-


    A) finding a solution that works for you.
    B) Posting it so that others can try it to see if it works for them.


    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google with bug
    reports (preferably typed with extra long lines & double spaced as that
    is clearly what they are used to & we would not want to upset them would
    we? )








    --
    It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be
    coming up it.
       -- Henry Allen
  • Alister at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:49 pm

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 02:08:17 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rusi wrote:
    Its really quite unclear to me why GG is a problem if all the problems
    of GG are obviated.
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With your
    setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it to
    work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this works
    straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.

    ChrisA

    Whilst I agree with Chris A's main points I would at least say thankyou
    for :-


    A) finding a solution that works for you.
    B) Posting it so that others can try it to see if it works for them.


    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google with bug
    reports (preferably typed with extra long lines & double spaced as that
    is clearly what they are used to & we would not want to upset them would
    we? )








    --
    It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be
    coming up it.
       -- Henry Allen
  • Alister at Nov 28, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 02:08:17 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rusi wrote:
    Its really quite unclear to me why GG is a problem if all the problems
    of GG are obviated.
    Which is easier, fiddling around with your setup so you can post
    reasonably on Google Groups, or just getting a better client? With your
    setup, you have to drop out to another editor and press F9 for it to
    work. With pretty much any other newsreader on the planet, this works
    straight off, no setup necessary.

    I'm still going to advise people to stop using buggy rubbish.

    ChrisA

    Whilst I agree with Chris A's main points I would at least say thankyou
    for :-


    A) finding a solution that works for you.
    B) Posting it so that others can try it to see if it works for them.


    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google with bug
    reports (preferably typed with extra long lines & double spaced as that
    is clearly what they are used to & we would not want to upset them would
    we? )








    --
    It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be
    coming up it.
       -- Henry Allen
  • Roy Smith at Nov 28, 2013 at 4:43 pm
    In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
      Alister wrote:

    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google with bug
    reports (preferably typed with extra long lines & double spaced as that
    is clearly what they are used to & we would not want to upset them would
    we? )

    It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups. Or, at
    least, they don't care that it interacts badly with newsgroups, and in
    particular with bidirectional newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.


    The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their site, which
    it does just fine. Making it behave better with newsgroups won't change
    that, so there's no incentive for them to do so.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 28, 2013 at 5:29 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
    The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their site, which
    it does just fine. Making it behave better with newsgroups won't change
    that, so there's no incentive for them to do so.

    Which is why the solution is to tell people to get off it. So long as
    people still use it, Google has no incentive to make it better.


    ChrisA
  • Neil Cerutti at Dec 2, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith wrote:
    In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
    Alister wrote:
    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
    with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
    double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
    would not want to upset them would we? )
    It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups. Or,
    at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
    newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
    newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.

    The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
    site, which it does just fine. Making it behave better with
    newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
    to do so.

    The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
    people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
    The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.


    I wish they'd never bought dejanews.


    --
    Neil Cerutti
  • Michael Torrie at Dec 3, 2013 at 1:17 am

    On 12/02/2013 06:03 AM, Neil Cerutti wrote:
    I wish they'd never bought dejanews.

    I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things. Seems like they bye up a
    lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
    apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
    the unwashed masses. And add "social" to it. Great for their bottom
    line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.


    Besides the dejanews thing, another one is Google Voice. Used to be a
    great tool but now they are trying to integrate it with Google Hangouts,
    reduce its functionality, reduce interoperability, and otherwise ruin
    it. I fear next year is the last year for Google Voice in any usable
    form for me. Might just have to bite the bullet and set up my own PBX
    and pay for a voip provider and port my google voice number over to it.
      I'd hate to lose the number; I've used it since Grand Central times.


    And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me. I don't want to use
    hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine. But alas that's
    disappearing.


    And the list goes on.
  • Mark Lawrence at Dec 3, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    On 03/12/2013 01:17, Michael Torrie wrote:
    And the list goes on.

    The love of money...


    --
    My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
    what you can do for our language.


    Mark Lawrence
  • Roy Smith at Dec 3, 2013 at 1:43 am
    In article <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>,
      Michael Torrie wrote:

    I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things. Seems like they bye up a
    lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
    apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
    the unwashed masses. And add "social" to it. Great for their bottom
    line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.

    And this is surprising, why?
  • Rusi at Dec 3, 2013 at 2:27 am

    On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:13:03 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
    Michael Torrie wrote:
    I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things. Seems like they bye up a
    lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
    apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
    the unwashed masses. And add "social" to it. Great for their bottom
    line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.
    And this is surprising, why?

    Something floating around here (was it Ben Finney's footer??) went
    something like:


    We must expect it; else we would be surprised


    Put differently: One evidence of being awake (and not in dreamland) is
    surprise


    A directly related piece by Nicholas Carr
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/


    Relevant at a deeper level is his "IT doesn't matter"
    http://www.roughtype.com/?pd4


    We software professionals cannot agree with this and keep our self-respect/sanity/identity. However its true; so denial remains the
    only option.
  • Michael Torrie at Dec 3, 2013 at 3:09 am

    On 12/02/2013 06:43 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
    In article <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>,
    Michael Torrie wrote:
    I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things. Seems like they bye up a
    lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
    apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
    the unwashed masses. And add "social" to it. Great for their bottom
    line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.
    And this is surprising, why?

    Well back when Google was a young hip company they billed themselves as
    a bunch of nerds making stuff for nerds. But yes we should have seen
    this coming.
  • Rusi at Dec 3, 2013 at 3:26 am

    On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:39:02 AM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 12/02/2013 06:43 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
    And this is surprising, why?
    Well back when Google was a young hip company they billed themselves as
    a bunch of nerds making stuff for nerds. But yes we should have seen
    this coming.

    So were Bill Gates and Jobs -- nerdy youths.
    We tend to not think them so because they are an earlier generation.
  • Grant Edwards at Dec 3, 2013 at 4:27 am

    On 2013-12-03, Michael Torrie wrote:
    On 12/02/2013 06:03 AM, Neil Cerutti wrote:
    I wish they'd never bought dejanews.
    I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things. Seems like they bye up a
    lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
    apps that do less and do it poorly,

    Or they just shut them down. I still wish SageTv was in business. My
    SageTv stuff is still running fine, but I don't know what I'm going to
    do when it dies. I guess I'll have to go back to Mytv and the
    associated huge, loud, noisy front-end boxes.


    That said, I'm still pretty happy with Gmail (I use it mostly via
    mutt/IMAP rather than the WebUI), and it sure beats the e-mail service
    I paid for in the past [it's certainly _way_ better than the Outlook
    server they run at work]. The Google search engine still works fine
    for me, and my Nexus Galaxy phone has been great.


    --
    Grant
  • Chris Angelico at Dec 3, 2013 at 7:01 am

    On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
    That said, I'm still pretty happy with Gmail (I use it mostly via
    mutt/IMAP rather than the WebUI), and it sure beats the e-mail service
    I paid for in the past [it's certainly _way_ better than the Outlook
    server they run at work]. The Google search engine still works fine
    for me, and my Nexus Galaxy phone has been great.

    Things Google does well are those that take advantage of the corpus of
    searchable data - like Translate. I wouldn't bother with any other
    online translation tool than Google Translate.


    ChrisA
  • Alex23 at Dec 3, 2013 at 6:30 am

    On 3/12/2013 11:17 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me. I don't want to use
    hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine. But alas that's
    disappearing.

    I really hate Hangouts. If I wanted to use Skype I would be using Skype.


    I'm also still unable to understand why Google scrapped Reader and kept
    Groups, although I suspect it's because the latter will eventually
    integrate more closely with Plus & Hangouts.
  • Steven D'Aprano at Dec 3, 2013 at 7:13 am

    On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:30:05 +1000, alex23 wrote:

    On 3/12/2013 11:17 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
    And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me. I don't want to use
    hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine. But alas that's
    disappearing.
    I really hate Hangouts. If I wanted to use Skype I would be using Skype.

    I'm also still unable to understand why Google scrapped Reader and kept
    Groups, although I suspect it's because the latter will eventually
    integrate more closely with Plus & Hangouts.



    Not aimed specifically at either Michael or Alex, but a general
    observation aimed at you all.


    You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control of the
    tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives are not your
    incentives.


    I mean, Microsoft was bad enough, but they could never reach through the
    aether into your computer and remove software they no longer wanted you
    to use. The worst that could happen was that they would stop supporting
    it and you'd be stuck with old obsolete hardware running old obsolete
    software that nevertheless did exactly what you want. Google, on the
    other hand, can and will take away software that you use.




    --
    Steven
  • Alex23 at Dec 4, 2013 at 12:23 am

    On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control of the
    tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives are not your
    incentives.

    To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to purchase
    convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(
  • Neil Cerutti at Dec 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm

    On 2013-12-04, alex23 wrote:
    On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control
    of the tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives
    are not your incentives.
    To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to
    purchase convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(

    But Franklin's quote doesn't apply when free alternatives exist.
    I can use a non-open email system until I don't want to any more,
    and switch out when it no longer please me.


    The cost of switching isn't zero, but it's much easier than
    emmigrating from a police state.


    Moreover, I'll always feel that I deserve more than I actually
    do deserve.


    --
    Neil Cerutti
  • Mark Lawrence at Dec 4, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    On 04/12/2013 14:34, Neil Cerutti wrote:
    On 2013-12-04, alex23 wrote:
    On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control
    of the tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives
    are not your incentives.
    To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to
    purchase convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(
    But Franklin's quote doesn't apply when free alternatives exist.

    Free at the point of delivery, someone, somewhere, has given blood,
    toil, tears and sweat.


    --
    My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
    what you can do for our language.


    Mark Lawrence
  • Roy Smith at Dec 2, 2013 at 1:29 pm
    In article <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>,
      Neil Cerutti wrote:

    On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith wrote:
    In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
    Alister wrote:
    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
    with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
    double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
    would not want to upset them would we? )
    It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups. Or,
    at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
    newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
    newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.

    The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
    site, which it does just fine. Making it behave better with
    newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
    to do so.
    The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
    people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
    The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.

    If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use usenet
    groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you don't understand
    the scale on which Google operates.
  • Neil Cerutti at Dec 2, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    On 2013-12-02, Roy Smith wrote:
    In article <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>,
    Neil Cerutti wrote:
    On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith wrote:
    In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
    Alister wrote:
    Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
    with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
    double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
    would not want to upset them would we? )
    It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups. Or,
    at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
    newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
    newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.

    The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
    site, which it does just fine. Making it behave better with
    newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
    to do so.
    The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
    people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
    The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.
    If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use
    usenet groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you
    don't understand the scale on which Google operates.

    It's probably hard to even visualize.


    --
    Neil Cerutti
  • Rusi at Dec 2, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    On Monday, December 2, 2013 7:34:33 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
    On 2013-12-02, Roy Smith wrote:
    The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
    people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
    The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.
    If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use
    usenet groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you
    don't understand the scale on which Google operates.
    It's probably hard to even visualize.

    I was dreaming about in an alternate surreal world?
    And now you guys have crashed me back to planet-earth-2013


        !MEAN!

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