FAQ
Hello Sir/Mam,


Could you please help me with my current research ? Am implementing the
concept in python language.
My doubts are :
1) Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?
2) Is it possible to Delete the Address of the Variable and create a new
dynamic address inside the compiler/interpreter itself ?
3) Is it easy to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric
String ?
4) Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence ?


Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
queries) ?
Your reply counts a lot for me and my research ! I love to explore more in
python.


Awaiting for your Response (Please reply ASAP).


Best,
Bharath
(+91 9025338332)
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  • Roy Smith at Nov 22, 2013 at 1:56 pm
    In article <mailman.3038.1385125611.18130.python-list@python.org>,
      Bharath Kummar wrote:

    Could you please help me with my current research ? Am implementing the
    concept in python language.
    My doubts are :

    [Note to readers of American/British English; Indian English uses
    "doubt" the same way we would use "question"]

    1) Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?

    No. One of the fundamental concepts of Python is that it completely
    hides the physical memory. Sure, at some point, when you write


    x = 42


    it allocates some piece of memory and puts the integer 42 into it, but
    all those details are hidden from you (and are implementation specific).



    3) Is it easy to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric
    String ?

    I think what you're talking about is the ord() function. Given a single
    character (i.e. a string of length 1), it returns the unicode value for
    that character. Thus:

    ord('X')
    88


    You could iterate over the characters in a string to find that for each
    one:

    [ord(c) for c in "My string"]
    [77, 121, 32, 115, 116, 114, 105, 110, 103]



    4) Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence ?

    This is starting to sound like a homework problem, or possibly an
    interview question :-)
  • Steven D'Aprano at Nov 22, 2013 at 2:12 pm

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:


    1) Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?

    No. Variables in Python are not at fixed addresses, like in Pascal or C,
    they are names in a namespace.


    You can read this post for some more information about the difference
    between C variables and Python variables, and calling conventions across
    different languages:


    https://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2010-December/080505.html


    It's a long post, but to summarise the part about variables:


    In languages like Pascal or C, the compiler keeps a table mapping
    variable names to fixed memory addresses, like this:


    Variable Address
    ======== =======
    x 10234
    y 10238
    z 10242


    The command "x = 42" stores the value 42 into memory address 10234. If
    you ask the compiler for the address of x, it can say 10234. That's how
    variables work in languages like Pascal, C, Fortran, and similar.


    With the Pascal or C style variable, the variable address exists even
    before you give it a value.


    But languages like Python don't work that way. There is no table of
    variable:address available to the compiler, and variables don't have an
    address. Python's variables are *name bindings*, not fixed memory
    addresses. The Python runtime keeps a global dictionary which maps names
    to their values:


    {'x': <integer object 42>,
      'y': <string object 'hello world'>,
      'z': <list object [1,2,3]>,
    }


    The general name for this is "namespace". In Python you can access the
    global namespace with the globals() function, and a read-only copy of the
    local namespace with the locals() function.


    Entries in the namespace cannot be blank. So names don't exist before
    they are bound to a value.



    2)
    Is it possible to Delete the Address of the Variable and create a new
    dynamic address inside the compiler/interpreter itself ?

    I don't understand this question.


    Since variables don't have addresses, you can't delete what doesn't exist.



    3) Is it easy
    to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric String ?

    Which binary equivalence are you referring to? Again, I don't understand
    your question. I can do this:


    py> astring = "1234"
    py> int(astring).to_bytes(4, 'big')
    b'\x00\x00\x04\xd2'
    py> int(astring).to_bytes(4, 'little')
    b'\xd2\x04\x00\x00'




    Or I can do this:


    py> astring = "Alpha1234 ????"
    py> astring.encode('utf-8')
    b'Alpha1234 \xce\xb4\xce\xb8\xd0\x96\xe2\x88\x9e'




    Or I can do this:


    py> import binascii
    py> binascii.hexlify(b'Hello World!')
    b'48656c6c6f20576f726c6421'




    And many other string -> binary equivalences. Which ones did you have in
    mind?



    4) Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence
    ?

    Of course. First decide which binary equivalence you want, then decide
    what you mean by "count the number of 1s" (do you mean the byte with
    value 1, or the ASCII code for 1, or the bit 1?), then count them.



    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?

    If you explain your question in more detail, we can give more detailed
    answers.






    --
    Steven
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 22, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    On 2013-11-22, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:

    1) Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?
    No. Variables in Python are not at fixed addresses, like in Pascal or C,
    they are names in a namespace.

    You can read this post for some more information about the difference
    between C variables and Python variables, and calling conventions across
    different languages:

    https://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2010-December/080505.html

    It's a long post, but to summarise the part about variables:

    In languages like Pascal or C, the compiler keeps a table mapping
    variable names to fixed memory addresses, like this:

    Variable Address
    ======== =======
    x 10234
    y 10238
    z 10242

    FWIW, that's only true for some sorts of variables. Other variables
    have an address that is relative to a stack or frame pointer.


    --
    Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! PEGGY FLEMMING is
                                       at stealing BASKET BALLS to
                                   gmail.com feed the babies in VERMONT.
  • Rusi at Nov 22, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:22:29 PM UTC+5:30, Bharath Kummar wrote:
    Hello Sir/Mam,?
    Could you please help me with my current research ? ?Am implementing the concept in python language.?
    My doubts are :
    1) ?Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?
    2) ?Is it possible to Delete the Address of the Variable and create a new dynamic address inside the compiler/interpreter itself ??
    3) ?Is it easy to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric String ?
    4) ?Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence ??
    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked queries) ??
    Your reply counts a lot for me and my research ! ?I love to explore more in python.

    1) id will give you addresses. Except that
        - not portable ie not guaranteed to be a m/c address
        - its of an object not a variable
        - if you are thinking C, its mostly useless


    2) del will delete objects -- like free in C
        Except that like above, thinking in C will cause more problems than it solves


    3,4 I cant make out what you mean
  • Ian Kelly at Nov 22, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:13 AM, rusi wrote:
    2) del will delete objects -- like free in C
    Except that like above, thinking in C will cause more problems than it solves

    No, del will only delete name bindings. Whether the bound object is
    also deleted depends on whether it is still referenced, and the timing
    by which the bound object may be deleted varies between
    implementations.
  • Ned Batchelder at Nov 22, 2013 at 3:18 pm

    On Friday, November 22, 2013 9:13:50 AM UTC-5, rusi wrote:
    On Friday, November 22, 2013 6:22:29 PM UTC+5:30, Bharath Kummar wrote:
    Hello Sir/Mam,?
    Could you please help me with my current research ? ?Am implementing the concept in python language.?
    My doubts are :
    1) ?Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?
    2) ?Is it possible to Delete the Address of the Variable and create a new dynamic address inside the compiler/interpreter itself ??
    3) ?Is it easy to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric String ?
    4) ?Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence ??
    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked queries) ??
    Your reply counts a lot for me and my research ! ?I love to explore more in python.
    1) id will give you addresses. Except that
    - not portable ie not guaranteed to be a m/c address
    - its of an object not a variable
    - if you are thinking C, its mostly useless

    2) del will delete objects -- like free in C
    Except that like above, thinking in C will cause more problems than it solves

    Not true: del doesn't delete objects. It merely removes references to objects. Only if the object has no more references is the object deleted.


    I tried my hand at explaining how names and values work in Python: http://nedbatchelder.com/text/names.html Some people have found it helpful.


    --Ned.
  • Denis McMahon at Nov 23, 2013 at 1:55 am

    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:


    Could you please help me with my current research ? Am implementing the
    concept in python language.
    My doubts are :
    1) Is it possible to Retrieve the address of a variable in python ?
    2) Is it possible to Delete the Address of the Variable and create a
    new dynamic address inside the compiler/interpreter itself ?
    3) Is it easy to find the Binary equivalence of a given Alphanumeric
    String ?
    4) Is it possible to count the number of 1's in the Binary equivalence
    ?
    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?

    The codes are:


    1) 7373a28109a7c4473a475b2137aa92d5
    2) f2fae9a4ad5ded75e4d8ac34b90d5c9c
    3) 935544894ca6ad7239e0df048b9ec3e5
    4) b1bc9942d029a4a67e4b368a1ff8d883


    Please contact your local government eavesdropping agency for assistance
    on decoding the codes.


    --
    Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com
  • Steven D'Aprano at Nov 23, 2013 at 2:18 am

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:55:44 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:


    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:
    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?
    The codes are:

    1) 7373a28109a7c4473a475b2137aa92d5
    2) f2fae9a4ad5ded75e4d8ac34b90d5c9c
    3) 935544894ca6ad7239e0df048b9ec3e5
    4) b1bc9942d029a4a67e4b368a1ff8d883

    Please contact your local government eavesdropping agency for assistance
    on decoding the codes.

    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".


    In other words, in UK/US English, "code" in the sense of programming code
    is an uncountable noun, like "rice" or "air", while in Indian English it
    is a countable noun like cats or programs. We have to say "give me two
    samples of code", or perhaps "two code samples", while an Indian speaker
    might say "give me two codes".


    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.


    Aside: I love the fact that pea, as in green peas or black-eyed peas, is
    a back-formation from an uncountable noun. Originally English had the
    word "pease", as in "pease porridge hot" from the nursery rhyme. Like
    wheat, rice, barley and others, You would have to say something like
    "give me a grain of pease" if you only wanted one. Eventually, people
    began to assume that "pease", or "peas", was the plural and therefore
    "pea" must be the singular. I look forward to the day that "rice" is the
    plural of "ri" :-)




    --
    Steven
  • Ian Kelly at Nov 23, 2013 at 6:42 am

    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    I wouldn't necessarily even consider it an Indian thing, as I've known
    Americans to use the same phrase.




    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
    wrote:
    On 23 Nov 2013 02:18:03 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
    <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
    Aside: I love the fact that pea, as in green peas or black-eyed peas, is
    a back-formation from an uncountable noun. Originally English had the
    word "pease", as in "pease porridge hot" from the nursery rhyme. Like
    wheat, rice, barley and others, You would have to say something like
    "give me a grain of pease" if you only wanted one. Eventually, people
    began to assume that "pease", or "peas", was the plural and therefore
    "pea" must be the singular. I look forward to the day that "rice" is the
    plural of "ri" :-)
    Rice is the plural of rouse

    Not according to the dictionary. But it does seem a more likely
    candidate for a hypothetical back formation than "ri", which perhaps
    was your point.
  • William Ray Wing at Nov 23, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    On Nov 23, 2013, at 1:42 AM, Ian Kelly wrote:


    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano
    wrote:
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".
    I wouldn't necessarily even consider it an Indian thing, as I've known
    Americans to use the same phrase.

    Yes - when I arrived at a Department of Energy national laboratory in the late 1960s, code, to code, and coding were pretty much the accepted verb forms. To the best of my knowledge, the word program didn't start to creep in until later. I'm guessing, but I'd assume it started to arrive with the first computer science graduates.


    -Bill
  • Steve Simmons at Nov 23, 2013 at 4:34 pm
  • Tim Chase at Nov 23, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    On 2013-11-23 10:44, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 23:42:44 -0700, Ian Kelly
    <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
    wrote:
    Rice is the plural of rouse
    Not according to the dictionary. But it does seem a more likely
    candidate for a hypothetical back formation than "ri", which
    perhaps was your point.
    Mice/Mouse <> Rice/*Rouse

    Wordplay is one of my worst vouse. ;-)


    -tkc
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 23, 2013 at 4:35 pm

    On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Tim Chase wrote:
    Mice/Mouse <> Rice/*Rouse
    Wordplay is one of my worst vouse. ;-)

    Yeah, some people can come up with bad puns in a trouse.


    ChrisA
  • Steve Simmons at Nov 23, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    On 23/11/2013 17:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Tim Chase
    wrote:
    Mice/Mouse <> Rice/*Rouse
    Wordplay is one of my worst vouse. ;-)
    Yeah, some people can come up with bad puns in a trouse.

    ChrisA
    Well! That wasn't very nouse!
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 23, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    On 23/11/2013 02:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    In other words, in UK/US English,

    UK English? Clearly you've never been to Newcastle upon Tyne or Glasgow :)


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Denis McMahon at Nov 23, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:18:03 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:55:44 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:
    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?
    The codes are:
    1) 7373a28109a7c4473a475b2137aa92d5 2) f2fae9a4ad5ded75e4d8ac34b90d5c9c
    3) 935544894ca6ad7239e0df048b9ec3e5 4) b1bc9942d029a4a67e4b368a1ff8d883
    Please contact your local government eavesdropping agency for
    assistance on decoding the codes.
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK
    and US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    Sorry, I should obviously have replied to the OP as follows:


    We don't write your python code for you, we help you to fix your python
    code. Please post the code you have developed to solve your problem, and
    explain what you expect it to do, and then we will try and explain to you
    why it's doing what it does instead of what you want it to.


    --
    Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com
  • Rick Johnson at Nov 23, 2013 at 10:00 pm

    On Friday, November 22, 2013 8:18:03 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    [snip] I look forward to the day that "rice" is the plural of "ri"

    Yes and i look forward to the day when "thread hijacking" perpetrated under the guise of "exploring linguistic minutia" perpetrated under the guise of "vanity" is frowned upon.


    PS: The only method chaining going on here is via the .brown_nosing() method.
  • Rick Johnson at Nov 23, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    On Friday, November 22, 2013 8:18:03 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.

    I don't thank so. What purpose does that serve?


    If we allow people to speak INCORRECT English under the
    guise of "political correctness" then no one will benefit.
    The speaker will continue using the language improperly and
    his audience will continue to be confused.


      "But Rick, we don't want to offend people!"


    Piss off you spineless invertebrate!I would be more offended
    if people did NOT correct me. People "correct" you when they
    WANT you to learn, likewise, people "tolerate" you when they
    want you to remain inferior.


      "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society"


    Only those societies with a vision for the future will
    survive, that is, until they inevitably grow tired from the
    intense competition and lose their vision THEN apathy sets
    in and a NEW society steps in to fill the vacuum.


      "Competition is the engine that drives the cogs of evolution"


    You are all but pawns in a greater game. It is better to die
    fighting for SOMETHING, then to wither away intolerant of
    NOTHING. There exists no utopia. And any pursuit of such
    ends is foolish.


    Have you ever even considered what sort of disgusting filth
    humans would degenerate into if we achieved a utopia free
    from competition? What would we do all day? What purpose
    would our lives fulfill?


      "Would you eat if you were never hungry?"


    Evolution will NEVER allow such a dismal state to prosper,
    no, it will stamp out every attempt by convincing the strong
    to conquer the weak -- and to do so with extreme prejudice!


    The system abhors the weak; the system ridicules the weak;
    because the weak serve no end but their own selfish and feeble
    attempts to convince themselves they are not but lowly pawns.


      "Time to pull your head out of the sand!"


    People like you don't want to accept the truth, you want to
    believe that "living in harmony" is the answer. No, harmony
    is a death wish. If you wish to reach a state of harmony,
    then not only are you suicidal but you're homicidal also
    because you obviously don't care about your fellow human
    beings future progression.


    If however, you cared about what really matters, you would
    advise our Indian friend to speak better English. By
    learning proper English he can become a productive member of
    this society -- maybe one day even contributing something
    remarkable.


    But until his communication can rise above the level of a
    3rd grade public school student in rural Kentucky, he is
    draining resources instead of creating them!I WANT our Indian
    friend to become proficient so that he *might* one day be a
    *worthy* advisory for me to challenge.


    Anyone can defeat the weak, only the strong have a snowballs
    chance in hell to defeat the strong.


      "Who said chivalry was dead?"
  • Tim Chase at Nov 23, 2013 at 11:22 pm

    On 2013-11-23 15:06, Rick Johnson wrote:
    I don't thank so. What purpose does that serve?

    If we allow people to speak INCORRECT English under the
    guise of "political correctness" then no one will benefit.

    "I don't thank so"?


    talk about the plank in your own eye...


    -tkc
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 23, 2013 at 11:30 pm

    On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Rick Johnson wrote:
    On Friday, November 22, 2013 8:18:03 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't thank so. What purpose does that serve?
    ...
    Anyone can defeat the weak, only the strong have a snowballs
    chance in hell to defeat the strong.

    Think. Snowball's. Welcome to Muphry's Law.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law


    ChrisA
  • Steven D'Aprano at Nov 24, 2013 at 1:38 am

    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 15:06:42 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

    On Friday, November 22, 2013 8:18:03 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't thank so. What purpose does that serve?

    If we allow people to speak INCORRECT English under the guise of
    "political correctness" then no one will benefit.
    [...]


    Thank you for the lesson in the virtues of bluntness, and why politeness
    and political correctness is a vice. Never let it be said that I'm not
    willing to learn from you Rick, so keeping everything you said in mind,
    let me say this:


    It's not INCORRECT English, you small-minded little git. That was the
    point of my post, which clearly was too difficult for your feeble little
    thought processes to comprehend. Where do you, an American, get off
    telling others that their regional variety of English is incorrect?


    After criticising me for hijacking threads, the hypocrisy and cheek of
    you doing the same thing with your odious and naive social Darwinism is
    breathtaking. Sod off and take your despicable little Randian pseudo-
    philosophy with you.




    --
    Steven
  • Devin Jeanpierre at Nov 24, 2013 at 7:32 am

    On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    Thank you for the lesson in the virtues of bluntness, and why politeness
    and political correctness is a vice. Never let it be said that I'm not
    willing to learn from you Rick, so keeping everything you said in mind,
    let me say this:

    --[tirade of insults]--

    No, please don't.


    If Rick is that annoying and harmful to discussion (he is), rather
    than blowing up at him, can we please ban him from the ML? I know that
    usenet cannot be affected, but anyone that cares about productive
    discussions can either maintain a killfile or use the mailing list.
    The state of discussion here as it stands is absurd, what with the
    trolling and irrelevant rants and subsequent explosions of hate.


    This list needs stronger moderation. Please.


    -- Devin
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 24, 2013 at 7:49 am

    On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
    On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Steven D'Aprano
    wrote:
    Thank you for the lesson in the virtues of bluntness, and why politeness
    and political correctness is a vice. Never let it be said that I'm not
    willing to learn from you Rick, so keeping everything you said in mind,
    let me say this:

    --[tirade of insults]--
    No, please don't.

    If Rick is that annoying and harmful to discussion (he is), rather
    than blowing up at him, can we please ban him from the ML? I know that
    usenet cannot be affected, but anyone that cares about productive
    discussions can either maintain a killfile or use the mailing list.
    The state of discussion here as it stands is absurd, what with the
    trolling and irrelevant rants and subsequent explosions of hate.

    This list needs stronger moderation. Please.

    I think this was a case of misrecognized humour... Rick was saying
    that it's better to offend people than to let them be wrong, so Steven
    took that style to its obvious extreme.


    Also, Rick clearly went into Room 12, when he should have gone to 12A,
    next door.[1]


    ChrisA


    [1] http://www.montypython.net/scripts/argument.php
  • xDog Walker at Nov 24, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    On Saturday 2013 November 23 23:32, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
    This list needs stronger moderation

    Rule #1: The ML should not disseminate any message which contains an
    unquoted "please".


    --
    Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque wet
    strainers.
  • Rick Johnson at Nov 25, 2013 at 7:32 pm

    On Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:38:47 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    Where do you, an American,

    What the hell makes you believe I'm an American? Because i
    speak fluent English? Because i embrace capitalism? Because
    i wish to be free of tyranny? Well, if that's all it takes
    to be an American, then count me in!


         America.append("RickJohnson")

    get off telling others that their regional variety of
    English is incorrect?

    Because with the ALREADY excessive polysemous nature of the
    English language, why would we want to PURPOSELY inject more
    inconsistency?.. especially when the sole purpose of the
    change is driven by selfishness?


    Do you remember your thread titled: "The narcissism of small
    code differences"? Do you remember how the author warned
    against the dangers of re-writing old code for fear of
    enduring lengthy de-bugging trials?


    Okay, with that synopsis in mind, now you want us to believe
    that injecting polysemy into the English language JUST for
    the mere PRIDE of "regional groups" is not:


       destructive?
       or at least harmful?
       or at minimum, non-productive?

    Sod off and take your despicable little Randian pseudo-
    philosophy with you.

    Yes because women couldn't *possibly* be "legitimate"
    philosophers -- is that correct? Or is your chauvinist anger
    towards Ayn merely a mask to disguise the *real* source of
    hatred: the defection of a fellow "comrade" to the
    capitalist system?


    How dare people allow themselves to be free!


    HOW DARE THEY!


    ...who's the fascist now?
  • Ned Batchelder at Nov 25, 2013 at 8:10 pm

    On Monday, November 25, 2013 2:32:12 PM UTC-5, Rick Johnson wrote:
    On Saturday, November 23, 2013 7:38:47 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    Where do you, an American,
    What the hell makes you believe I'm an American? Because i
    speak fluent English? Because i embrace capitalism? Because
    i wish to be free of tyranny? Well, if that's all it takes
    to be an American, then count me in!

    America.append("RickJohnson")
    get off telling others that their regional variety of
    English is incorrect?
    Because with the ALREADY excessive polysemous nature of the
    English language, why would we want to PURPOSELY inject more
    inconsistency?.. especially when the sole purpose of the
    change is driven by selfishness?

    Do you remember your thread titled: "The narcissism of small
    code differences"? Do you remember how the author warned
    against the dangers of re-writing old code for fear of
    enduring lengthy de-bugging trials?

    Okay, with that synopsis in mind, now you want us to believe
    that injecting polysemy into the English language JUST for
    the mere PRIDE of "regional groups" is not:

    destructive?
    or at least harmful?
    or at minimum, non-productive?
    Sod off and take your despicable little Randian pseudo-
    philosophy with you.
    Yes because women couldn't *possibly* be "legitimate"
    philosophers -- is that correct? Or is your chauvinist anger
    towards Ayn merely a mask to disguise the *real* source of
    hatred: the defection of a fellow "comrade" to the
    capitalist system?

    How dare people allow themselves to be free!

    HOW DARE THEY!

    ...who's the fascist now?

    Rick, I've never understood how much your rants are tongue-in-cheek, or intended to amuse, and how much they accurately represent your philosophy and mindset. Most of your rants had to do with programming at least. Let's please avoid veering off into rants about language and philosophy now.


    --Ned.
  • Gregory Ewing at Nov 25, 2013 at 11:12 pm

    Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Let's please avoid veering off into rants about language
    and philosophy now.

    Philosophy is totally on topic for this group:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gJamguN04


    --
    Greg
  • Larry Martell at Nov 25, 2013 at 11:27 pm

    On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:


    Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Let's please avoid veering off into rants about language

    and philosophy now.
    Philosophy is totally on topic for this group:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gJamguN04

    A classic! I hadn't seen that in many years.
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  • Rick Johnson at Nov 26, 2013 at 3:33 am

    On Monday, November 25, 2013 2:10:04 PM UTC-6, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Let's please avoid veering off into rants about language
    and philosophy now.

    Hello Ned. I respect the fact that you want to keep threads
    on-topic, and i greatly appreciate the humbleness of your
    request.


    However, i feel as though i am being unfairly treated when
    other people (who shall remain unnamed) started the
    discussion in an off-topic direction long before i chimed
    in.


    And to be fair, i was merely retorting a hasty assertion by
    our friend Steven. Yes, i might have gotten a bit
    philosophical in the process, but the reply itself was
    germane to the sub-topic that Steven propagated up.


    Furthermore, I don't believe that applying ridged rules of
    topicality are to the benefit of anyone. Conversations of
    any topic are destined to spin-off in many seemingly
    unrelated directions -- and this is healthy!


    As a spectator (or a participant) you can choose to stop
    listening (or participating) at anytime the conversation
    becomes uninteresting to you.


    Some of the greatest debates that i have participated
    in (those that result in epiphany or even catharsis) had
    initially sprung out of seemingly unrelated subject matters
    which slowly built to a crescendo of maximum intensity.


    I don't think we should attempt to restrict debate since it
    is this very debate that results in evolution of not only
    the participants, but also the spectators.


         "Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is
         given to him, survival is not. His body is given to
         him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to
         him, its content is not"


         [...]


         "Reason does not work automatically; thinking is not
         a mechanical process; the connections of logic are
         not made by instinct. The function of your stomach,
         lungs or heart is automatic; the function of your
         mind is not."


         "In any hour and issue of your life, you are free to
         think or to evade that effort. But you are not free
         to escape from your nature, from the fact that
         reason is your means of survival -- so that for you,
         who are a human being, the question "to be or not to
         be" is the question "to think or not to think."


         -- Ayn Rand
  • Ned Batchelder at Nov 26, 2013 at 11:40 am

    On 11/25/13 10:33 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:> On Monday, November 25, 2013 2:10:04 PM UTC-6, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    Let's please avoid veering off into rants about language
    and philosophy now.
    Hello Ned. I respect the fact that you want to keep threads
    on-topic, and i greatly appreciate the humbleness of your
    request.

    However, i feel as though i am being unfairly treated when
    other people (who shall remain unnamed) started the
    discussion in an off-topic direction long before i chimed
    in.

    And to be fair, i was merely retorting a hasty assertion by
    our friend Steven. Yes, i might have gotten a bit
    philosophical in the process, but the reply itself was
    germane to the sub-topic that Steven propagated up.

    I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I don't mean to single
    you out. Threads that get too far off-track are rarely
    identified at the actual point they left the arena. Usually
    it isn't until they are clearly outside, and far enough
    outside that they aren't coming back, that a comment is made.


    In particular, I chose to comment on yours because it had
    a combination of non-Pythonness, strong language, and no
    clear markers of satire.

    Furthermore, I don't believe that applying ridged rules of
    topicality are to the benefit of anyone. Conversations of
    any topic are destined to spin-off in many seemingly
    unrelated directions -- and this is healthy!

    I agree.

    As a spectator (or a participant) you can choose to stop
    listening (or participating) at anytime the conversation
    becomes uninteresting to you.

    True, but that attitude taken to the extreme is, "anything goes,
    and if you are only interested in Python, then only read the xx% of
    messages that are about Python." We also need the list to have
    a purpose (Python) and a tone (welcoming). When posts or threads
    stray too far on both, I start to get concerned.

    Some of the greatest debates that i have participated
    in (those that result in epiphany or even catharsis) had
    initially sprung out of seemingly unrelated subject matters
    which slowly built to a crescendo of maximum intensity.

    I don't think we should attempt to restrict debate since it
    is this very debate that results in evolution of not only
    the participants, but also the spectators.

    Again, thanks for your thoughtful approach to this, and also for
    using only one exclamation point, and no all-caps. :)


    --Ned.
  • Gregory Ewing at Nov 23, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
    wrote:
    Rice is the plural of rouse

    And spice is the plural of spouse. :-)


    --
    Greg
  • Gregory Ewing at Nov 23, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    Ian Kelly wrote:
    I wouldn't necessarily even consider it an Indian thing, as I've known
    Americans to use the same phrase.

    In my experience it seems to be a scientific community
    vs. computer science community thing. I often hear Fortran
    people talk about "a code" where we would say "a library"
    or "a piece of code".


    --
    Greg
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    On 2013-11-23, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:55:44 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:

    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?
    The codes are:

    1) 7373a28109a7c4473a475b2137aa92d5
    2) f2fae9a4ad5ded75e4d8ac34b90d5c9c
    3) 935544894ca6ad7239e0df048b9ec3e5
    4) b1bc9942d029a4a67e4b368a1ff8d883

    Please contact your local government eavesdropping agency for assistance
    on decoding the codes.
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    I think Dennis was taking aim at the OP's request that somebody do his
    homework assignment for him rather than at his incorrect (in US
    "standard" English) use of the mass noun "code".


    Mass nouns seem to be a common tripping point for people learning
    English as a second language (and for some with English as their first
    language). I'm not sure if that's because their first language doesn't
    have something that corresponds to countable vs. mass nouns, or if
    it's just the usual problem of English being so random and irregular
    that it can only be learned easily by a toddler.


    --
    Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I like the way ONLY
                                       at their mouths move ... They
                                   gmail.com look like DYING OYSTERS
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 25, 2013 at 7:53 pm

    Op 23-11-13 03:18, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
    On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:55:44 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:22:29 +0530, Bharath Kummar wrote:

    Could you PLEASE provide me with the codes (codes only for the asked
    queries) ?
    The codes are:

    1) 7373a28109a7c4473a475b2137aa92d5
    2) f2fae9a4ad5ded75e4d8ac34b90d5c9c
    3) 935544894ca6ad7239e0df048b9ec3e5
    4) b1bc9942d029a4a67e4b368a1ff8d883

    Please contact your local government eavesdropping agency for assistance
    on decoding the codes.
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    In other words, in UK/US English, "code" in the sense of programming code
    is an uncountable noun, like "rice" or "air", while in Indian English it
    is a countable noun like cats or programs. We have to say "give me two
    samples of code", or perhaps "two code samples", while an Indian speaker
    might say "give me two codes".

    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.

    I don't see how that follows. I would say on the contrary. This being
    an international forum people should try to reframe from burdening
    lots of other people with expressions most people will not understand
    or even misunderstand.


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Ethan Furman at Nov 25, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    On 11/25/2013 11:53 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
    Op 23-11-13 03:18, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't see how that follows. I would say on the contrary. This being
    an international forum people should try to reframe from burdening
    lots of other people with expressions most people will not understand
    or even misunderstand.

    So we can assume you've made a comprehensive study of the different varieties of English and created a compendium of
    which words and/or phrases can be easily misunderstood? Please share that with us, it would be quite helpful.


    --
    ~Ethan~
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 26, 2013 at 7:32 am

    Op 25-11-13 21:00, Ethan Furman schreef:
    On 11/25/2013 11:53 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
    Op 23-11-13 03:18, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't see how that follows. I would say on the contrary. This being
    an international forum people should try to reframe from burdening
    lots of other people with expressions most people will not understand
    or even misunderstand.
    So we can assume you've made a comprehensive study of the different
    varieties of English and created a compendium of which words and/or
    phrases can be easily misunderstood? Please share that with us, it
    would be quite helpful.

    Well I can't stop you from assuming something like that, however it
    wasn't implied by what I wrote.


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Joel Goldstick at Nov 25, 2013 at 8:05 pm

    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    In other words, in UK/US English, "code" in the sense of programming code
    is an uncountable noun, like "rice" or "air", while in Indian English it
    is a countable noun like cats or programs. We have to say "give me two
    samples of code", or perhaps "two code samples", while an Indian speaker
    might say "give me two codes".

    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't see how that follows. I would say on the contrary. This being
    an international forum people should try to reframe from burdening
    lots of other people with expressions most people will not understand
    or even misunderstand.

    --
    Antoon Pardon
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



    I see the different idioms as kind of interesting, and funny
    sometimes, but I don't think they pose a big barrier. Mostly, people
    don't provide OS or python version, or explain what they done and what
    happens. That makes it harder to respond than figuring out how
    different people around the world say stuff. I'm from US and I have
    done lots of phone calls with Indian developers. To me it sounds
    strange to talk about codes, but I totally understand what they mean.
    A bigger problem I have had is in understanding accents during multi
    person phone calls with people from other countries. Different
    'English' speakers actually speak more differently than we write. At
    least here we can read the words, even if they are different.
    --
    Joel Goldstick
    http://joelgoldstick.com
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 26, 2013 at 7:47 am

    Op 25-11-13 21:05, Joel Goldstick schreef:
    I'm not an expert on Indian English, but I understand that in that
    dialect it is grammatically correct to say "the codes", just as in UK and
    US English it is grammatically correct to say "the programs".

    In other words, in UK/US English, "code" in the sense of programming code
    is an uncountable noun, like "rice" or "air", while in Indian English it
    is a countable noun like cats or programs. We have to say "give me two
    samples of code", or perhaps "two code samples", while an Indian speaker
    might say "give me two codes".

    As this is an international forum, it behoves us all to make allowances
    for slight difference in dialect.
    I don't see how that follows. I would say on the contrary. This being
    an international forum people should try to reframe from burdening
    lots of other people with expressions most people will not understand
    or even misunderstand.

    --
    Antoon Pardon
    --
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

    I see the different idioms as kind of interesting, and funny
    sometimes, but I don't think they pose a big barrier.

    IMO that is because the differences in idoms you have seen here
    are very minor and yet Roy already found it necessary to explain
    the specific use of "doubt" by the OP.


    Not that I mind that much but as has been said multiple times, a
    contribution is only written once and read many times. So I think
    we may expect more effort from the writer in trying to be
    understandable than from the readers in trying to understand. And
    that includes idiom use.

    Mostly, people
    don't provide OS or python version, or explain what they done and what
    happens. That makes it harder to respond than figuring out how
    different people around the world say stuff. I'm from US and I have
    done lots of phone calls with Indian developers. To me it sounds
    strange to talk about codes, but I totally understand what they mean.

    That is fine for you. But can you expect a random reader from
    comp.lang.python to understand that without any explanation?


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Roy Smith at Nov 26, 2013 at 2:37 pm
    In article <mailman.3219.1385452076.18130.python-list@python.org>,
      Antoon Pardon wrote:

    So I think we may expect more effort from the writer in trying to be
    understandable than from the readers in trying to understand. And
    that includes idiom use.

    We live in an international world (otherwise we wouldn't need that
    annoying unicode stuff). When you say, "effort to be understandable",
    what you're really saying is, "everybody should be just like me".


    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Or maybe fortunately, since
    variety and exploring different cultures is part of what makes life
    interesting.


    Keep in mind, there's a lot of native Mandarin speakers who are
    wondering why they need to bother learning English at all.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 26, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:37 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
    We live in an international world (otherwise we wouldn't need that
    annoying unicode stuff). When you say, "effort to be understandable",
    what you're really saying is, "everybody should be just like me".

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Or maybe fortunately, since
    variety and exploring different cultures is part of what makes life
    interesting.

    That said, though, there are a few phrases that we all learn to avoid.
    I'm used to talking about "knocking up" a rough prototype, but when I
    started communicating internationally more, I consciously started
    saying "knocking together" instead, to avoid confusing certain groups
    of people...


    ChrisA
  • Alister at Nov 26, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:52:11 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:37 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
    We live in an international world (otherwise we wouldn't need that
    annoying unicode stuff). When you say, "effort to be understandable",
    what you're really saying is, "everybody should be just like me".

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Or maybe fortunately, since
    variety and exploring different cultures is part of what makes life
    interesting.
    That said, though, there are a few phrases that we all learn to avoid.
    I'm used to talking about "knocking up" a rough prototype, but when I
    started communicating internationally more, I consciously started saying
    "knocking together" instead, to avoid confusing certain groups of
    people...

    ChrisA

    still no chance of bumming a fag then?






    --
    Appendix:
      A portion of a book, for which nobody yet has discovered any use.
  • Gene Heskett at Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    On Tuesday 26 November 2013 10:49:07 Alister did opine:

    On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:52:11 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:37 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
    We live in an international world (otherwise we wouldn't need that
    annoying unicode stuff). When you say, "effort to be
    understandable", what you're really saying is, "everybody should be
    just like me".

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Or maybe fortunately,
    since variety and exploring different cultures is part of what makes
    life interesting.
    That said, though, there are a few phrases that we all learn to avoid.
    I'm used to talking about "knocking up" a rough prototype, but when I
    started communicating internationally more, I consciously started
    saying "knocking together" instead, to avoid confusing certain groups
    of people...

    ChrisA
    still no chance of bumming a fag then?

    Chuckle... Haven't heard that expression since the late '50's. Haven't
    even carried a pack since '89.


    Cheers, Gene
    --
    "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
      soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
    -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
    Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


    The duration of passion is proportionate with the original resistance
    of the woman.
       -- Honor'e DeBalzac
    A pen in the hand of this president is far more
    dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
              law-abiding citizens.
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 26, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Op 26-11-13 15:37, Roy Smith schreef:
    In article <mailman.3219.1385452076.18130.python-list@python.org>,
    Antoon Pardon wrote:
    So I think we may expect more effort from the writer in trying to be
    understandable than from the readers in trying to understand. And
    that includes idiom use.
    We live in an international world (otherwise we wouldn't need that
    annoying unicode stuff). When you say, "effort to be understandable",
    what you're really saying is, "everybody should be just like me".

    Are you sure? I certainly hope not. That would be horrible!

    Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Or maybe fortunately, since
    variety and exploring different cultures is part of what makes life
    interesting.

    So I can now ask my questions in dutch and expect others to try and
    understand me instead of me asking them in english? Or can I use
    literal translations of dutch idioms even if I suspect that such
    a literal translation could be misunderstood and even be insulting?

    Keep in mind, there's a lot of native Mandarin speakers who are
    wondering why they need to bother learning English at all.

    So what is your point? Do you think they can just come and ask
    there questions here in Mandarin or do you expect them to do
    an effort to be understandable in english?


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Tim Delaney at Nov 26, 2013 at 9:42 pm
    On 27 November 2013 03:57, Antoon Pardon wrote:

    So I can now ask my questions in dutch and expect others to try and
    understand me instead of me asking them in english? Or can I use
    literal translations of dutch idioms even if I suspect that such
    a literal translation could be misunderstood and even be insulting?



    1. No, because this is stated to be an English-speaking list/newsgroup. It
    just doesn't specify what dialect of English.


    2. If you suspect that the literal translation could be misunderstood or
    insulting, then I would expect you to make an effort to find a better
    translation. If someone I didn't know posted it, I'd be willing to give
    them leeway if the rest of their message indicated that they are used to
    another dialect or language. If *you* posted it, I'd probably assume you
    meant it, because I know your command of the english language is pretty
    extensive ...


    Participants are expected to attempt to be understandable in English, but I
    personally expect responders to make an effort to work with multiple
    dialects. If you're too unfamiliar with a dialect that you cannot respond,
    either don't respond, or respond saying something like "I think I can help
    here, but I'm confused about <unfamiliar phrase> - could you or someone
    else clarify please?"


    And if an unfamiliar dialect annoys you, killfile the person. No skin off
    my nose.


    Tim Delaney
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  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 27, 2013 at 8:16 am

    Op 26-11-13 22:42, Tim Delaney schreef:
    On 27 November 2013 03:57, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be
    wrote:


    So I can now ask my questions in dutch and expect others to try and
    understand me instead of me asking them in english? Or can I use
    literal translations of dutch idioms even if I suspect that such
    a literal translation could be misunderstood and even be insulting?


    1. No, because this is stated to be an English-speaking list/newsgroup.
    It just doesn't specify what dialect of English.

    Well so much for this group being an international group with only one
    language allowed.


    However that second sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Modern
    languages contain a subset that is called the standard language. This
    is the subset that is generally taught. Especially to those for whom
    the language is foreign. So when you define a specific language to
    use on an international forum, it is strongly suggested that people
    limit themselves to the standard subset and don't use dialects since
    "dialect" AFAIU means it is outside this standard.


    Yes I accept that everyone deviates from this standard language and that
    it isn't always easy to know what is and what is not within the standard
    language and that we should allow each other some leeway. However there
    is a difference between saying standard usage is something to aspire to
    and then be tolerant for deviations on the one hand and saying any
    dialect is allowed on the other hand.


    So this being an international forum in which for a significant number
    of members english is not their first language, I think it would be
    prudent for those who have englisch as a mother tongue, to try and
    stick to standard english, so as not to burden the first group even
    more.


    Doing otherwise IMO doesn't show much respect for that first group, from
    whom is expected they adapt to a (for them) foreign language and then to
    learn that those for which english is their mother tongue don't feel an
    obligation to be helpful by limiting themselves to that part of the
    language that is most likely to be understood by the first group.

    Participants are expected to attempt to be understandable in English,
    but I personally expect responders to make an effort to work with
    multiple dialects.

    Why do you expect from people who already had to learn a foreign
    language to familiarize themselves with dialects. The variations
    within the standard are already plentyful enough, that you shouldn't
    burden these peoples with dialects too.


    You seem to suggest that we can hardly expect from people for whom
    english is their mother tongue to do a serious effort in making
    themselves understandable to others by trying to express themselves
    in standard english.


    And that in what is accepted to be an international forum so in which
    we can expect a significant number of people for whom english is not
    their mother tongue.


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 27, 2013 at 8:19 am

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
    However that second sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Modern
    languages contain a subset that is called the standard language. This
    is the subset that is generally taught. Especially to those for whom
    the language is foreign. So when you define a specific language to
    use on an international forum, it is strongly suggested that people
    limit themselves to the standard subset and don't use dialects since
    "dialect" AFAIU means it is outside this standard.

    Do you mean standard British English, standard American English,
    standard Australian English, or some other?


    ChrisA
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 27, 2013 at 8:31 am

    Op 27-11-13 09:19, Chris Angelico schreef:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Antoon Pardon
    wrote:
    However that second sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Modern
    languages contain a subset that is called the standard language. This
    is the subset that is generally taught. Especially to those for whom
    the language is foreign. So when you define a specific language to
    use on an international forum, it is strongly suggested that people
    limit themselves to the standard subset and don't use dialects since
    "dialect" AFAIU means it is outside this standard.
    Do you mean standard British English, standard American English,
    standard Australian English, or some other?

    Does that significantly matter or are you just looking for details
    you can use to disagree? As far as I understand the overlap between
    standard British English and standard American English is so large
    that it doesn't really matter for those who had to learn the language.
    Likewise for the overlap with standard Australian English.


    --
    Antoon
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 27, 2013 at 8:36 am

    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
    Op 27-11-13 09:19, Chris Angelico schreef:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Antoon Pardon
    wrote:
    However that second sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Modern
    languages contain a subset that is called the standard language. This
    is the subset that is generally taught. Especially to those for whom
    the language is foreign. So when you define a specific language to
    use on an international forum, it is strongly suggested that people
    limit themselves to the standard subset and don't use dialects since
    "dialect" AFAIU means it is outside this standard.
    Do you mean standard British English, standard American English,
    standard Australian English, or some other?
    Does that significantly matter or are you just looking for details
    you can use to disagree? As far as I understand the overlap between
    standard British English and standard American English is so large
    that it doesn't really matter for those who had to learn the language.
    Likewise for the overlap with standard Australian English.

    It matters hugely when your point depends on their being a single
    "standard English". The overlap may be large, but all you've done is
    either change the terms without solving the problem (because there are
    still multiple language variants being used) or create a new language
    (the common subset of English across all usages, which is an
    impossible target to aim for).


    ChrisA
  • Antoon Pardon at Nov 27, 2013 at 9:12 am

    Op 27-11-13 09:36, Chris Angelico schreef:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Antoon Pardon
    wrote:
    Op 27-11-13 09:19, Chris Angelico schreef:
    On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Antoon Pardon
    wrote:
    However that second sentence doesn't make much sense to me. Modern
    languages contain a subset that is called the standard language. This
    is the subset that is generally taught. Especially to those for whom
    the language is foreign. So when you define a specific language to
    use on an international forum, it is strongly suggested that people
    limit themselves to the standard subset and don't use dialects since
    "dialect" AFAIU means it is outside this standard.
    Do you mean standard British English, standard American English,
    standard Australian English, or some other?
    Does that significantly matter or are you just looking for details
    you can use to disagree? As far as I understand the overlap between
    standard British English and standard American English is so large
    that it doesn't really matter for those who had to learn the language.
    Likewise for the overlap with standard Australian English.
    It matters hugely when your point depends on their being a single
    "standard English". The overlap may be large, but all you've done is
    either change the terms without solving the problem (because there are
    still multiple language variants being used) or create a new language
    (the common subset of English across all usages, which is an
    impossible target to aim for).

    You are nitpicking. I didn't say nor implied their is a perfect
    solution. However that there is no perfect solution doesn't imply
    we can't expect some effort from those with english as a mother
    tongue to search for ways in which to express themselves that are
    more likely to be understood by those who had to learn english
    as a foreign language than just to use their local idiom/dialect.


    I think that is basic respect for those who had to learn the language.


    --
    Antoon Pardon
  • Rusi at Nov 27, 2013 at 9:32 am

    On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:41:54 AM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
    On 11/26/13 8:26 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

    <Classic Rick Rant>

    And will you be here to explain to time-travelling Shakespeare why we
    are all of us speaking English completely wrong (to his ears)?

    And to my (Indian!!) ears when Tim says 'plank in the eye' where King James
    says 'beam' it does not cut it.


    Propositionally: Its a distinction without a difference
    Poetically: Well its subjective... to me its a real difference


    Likewise in programming:
    Propositionally: All languages are equal -- Turing complete -- and people
    discussing/inventing new ones are just wasting their and others' time


    Poetically: Like all artistic questions this is not settle-able once
    and for all and I must preface the following with an "I find that..."
    C is artistic in a very different way from Python and assembly
    and Haskell. And C++ is frighteningly unartistic


    It is my impression that the arguments that happen in/around programming languages are more-heat-less-light than in typical art/science because artistic

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