FAQ
I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate
Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion
about how can I do this? From now, thanks.
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  • Bob gailer at Nov 3, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    On 11/3/2013 11:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:
    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this?
    You could start by explaining what those terms mean. They have no direct
    relationship to Python.


    Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum theory? Telephony?


    P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?


    Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.


    --
    Bob Gailer
    919-636-4239
    Chapel Hill NC
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 3, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    On 03/11/2013 21:22, bob gailer wrote:
    On 11/3/2013 11:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:
    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this?
    You could start by explaining what those terms mean. They have no direct
    relationship to Python.

    Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum theory? Telephony?

    P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?

    Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.

    According to http://www.acronymfinder.com there are only 85 meanings for
    PV, 75 for MV and a mere 290 for SP so simply take your pick :)


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • MRAB at Nov 3, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    On 03/11/2013 21:53, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 03/11/2013 21:22, bob gailer wrote:
    On 11/3/2013 11:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:
    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this?
    You could start by explaining what those terms mean. They have no direct
    relationship to Python.

    Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum theory? Telephony?

    P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?

    Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.
    According to http://www.acronymfinder.com there are only 85 meanings for
    PV, 75 for MV and a mere 290 for SP so simply take your pick :)
    If you put all "PV MV SP" into Google you get results about Process
    Dynamics/Control. Does that help? :-)
  • Bob gailer at Nov 4, 2013 at 12:16 am
    Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his problem so we
    can offer solutions.


    --
    Bob Gailer
    919-636-4239
    Chapel Hill NC
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 4, 2013 at 9:10 am

    On 04/11/2013 00:16, bob gailer wrote:
    Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his problem so we
    can offer solutions.

    It's also the job of the responder to help if possible, e.g. by
    providing some context with their messages, which is clearly absent above.


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Rick Johnson at Nov 14, 2013 at 4:30 am

    bob gailer wrote:
    Does this have anything to do with statistics? Quantum
    theory? Telephony?

    P = Pluto, V = Venus, S = Saturn?

    Help us understand - then we *might* be able to help you.

    bob later gailer wrote:
    Oh ... will you please explain in good English and a lot
    more detail. I can only begin to guess from that what you
    want. Guessing wastes all our time.

    bob even later gailer wrote:
    Let's remember that it is the job of the OP to explain his
    problem so we can offer solutions.

    bob gailer always writes:
    Bob Gailer
    XXX-XXX-XXXX
    XXXXXX XXXX XX

    Urm Bob, i'm see you're getting off to a "wonderful" start
    here, but it might behoove you to know that including any
    personal contact information in your emails in not a good
    idea. In fact it's quite dangerous.


    This is a PUBLIC group after all, and not only is that
    information available to ALL group members (for better or
    worse) but it's available to everyone on the internet.


    Just uh, FYI there fella.


    Cheers.
  • Johannes Findeisen at Nov 3, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 14:19:48 -0200 Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:


    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate
    Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion
    about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

    Did you looked at http://www.python-excel.org/ ?


    May this can help you solving your problem. Since you are not
    explaining what you want to do I can really not help you more. And I
    don't use Excel too.


    And maybe ask the people over at
    http://groups.google.com/group/python-excel if they can help you.


    Regards,
    Johannes
  • Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira at Nov 3, 2013 at 9:48 pm
    http://pastebin.com/N9dgaHTx


    With this program I can read a csv file with 3 columns, in one of these columns I need to read the value more high and multiply by 0.632 and with result, search in the same column by a value that aproximate with this result, and then return the vector position.
  • Bob gailer at Nov 3, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    On 11/3/2013 4:48 PM, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira at gmail.com wrote:
    http://pastebin.com/N9dgaHTx

    With this program I can read a csv file with 3 columns, in one of these columns I need to read the value more high and multiply by 0.632 and with result, search in the same column by a value that aproximate with this result, and then return the vector position.
    Oh ... will you please explain in good English and a lot more detail. I
    can only begin to guess from that what you want. Guessing wastes all our
    time.


    --
    Bob Gailer
    919-636-4239
    Chapel Hill NC
  • Denis McMahon at Nov 3, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 14:19:48 -0200, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:


    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

    Why use Python? Why not simply write excel to do the calculations?


    Assuming PV, MV and SP are in columns, you simply need to write your
    equations for Kp, Ki and Kd so that they reference the relevant columns,
    and then past them down the whole spreadsheet.


    Seems to me like you're using a sledgehammer to shell a peanut.


    --
    Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com
  • Denis McMahon at Nov 4, 2013 at 11:39 am

    On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 23:32:46 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:

    On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 14:19:48 -0200, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:

    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this? From now, thanks.
    Why use Python? Why not simply write excel to do the calculations?

    Assuming PV, MV and SP are in columns, you simply need to write your
    equations for Kp, Ki and Kd so that they reference the relevant columns,
    and then past them down the whole spreadsheet.

    Seems to me like you're using a sledgehammer to shell a peanut.

    For some reason OP is now continuing the conversation with my by email
    and adding me to his social networks.


    To the OP - observation - in the original post you said .xls file,
    not .csv file. If your data is in .csv format, you should have said so,
    not called it an .xls file.


    If you ant to convert your .csv containing columns a, b and c into a .csv
    containing columns a, b, c, x, y and z, then the solution is to read your
    existing .csv file one line at a time, calculate the extra values x, y
    and z, and then write the 6 values to a new file.


    You might want to delete the old file and rename the new one to the old
    name when you finish, that might be part of the implementation
    requirements.


    --
    Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com
  • Rick Johnson at Nov 14, 2013 at 4:18 am

    On Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:32:46 PM UTC-6, Denis McMahon wrote:
    Seems to me like you're using a sledgehammer to shell a peanut.

    And hopefully he knows whether or not he has a peanut allergy
    before he commits to enjoying the fruits of his labor.
  • Rusi at Nov 4, 2013 at 4:25 am

    On Sunday, November 3, 2013 9:49:48 PM UTC+5:30, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:
    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to
    calculate Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any
    suggestion about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

    You need something like this?


    http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5425210/shortcut-to-apply-a-formula-to-an-entire-column-in-excel
  • Dan Stromberg at Nov 4, 2013 at 4:35 am

    On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira wrote:


    I have one .xls file with the values of PV MV and SP, I wanna to calculate
    Kp Ki Kd with python from this file, can anyone give me any suggestion
    about how can I do this? From now, thanks.

    You're being rather vague, so my answer is vague too. I won't attempt to
    deal with the formulas for your conversions - apparently that's your
    business.


    But for dealing with xls files, I recommend saving to and reading from .csv
    files; Python deals great with these.


    If you're not concerned about getting (further) locked into a dying,
    binary-only platform, you could use xlrd and xlwt though.


    It looks like xlrd runs on 2.x and 3.x, while xlwt is still 2.x only -
    that's another reason to go with csv, which works well with 2.x and 3.x for
    reading and writing.
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  • Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira at Nov 14, 2013 at 3:56 am
    Thanks for all the help, I finished the program, follow the download link and a brief explanation of the same (in Portuguese, my native language), I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.


    http://mundodacana.blogspot.com.br/2013/11/programa-para-calculo-de-constantes-pid.html


    Python commands :D
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 14, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira at gmail.com wrote:
    I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.

    I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
    extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
    pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
    should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Alister at Nov 14, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:10:02 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

    On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira at gmail.com wrote:
    I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have
    generated.
    I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
    extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
    pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
    should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)

    As a native of England I have to agree
    it is far to arrogant to expect everyone else to be able to speak good
    English when I can barley order a beer in any other language.
    (even or especially in the USA)








    --
    Only through hard work and perseverance can one truly suffer.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 14, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Alister wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:10:02 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira at gmail.com wrote:
    I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have
    generated.
    I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
    extremely difficult language. IIRC there are eight different ways of
    pronouncing the vowel combination au. Whatever happened to "There
    should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)
    As a native of England I have to agree
    it is far to arrogant to expect everyone else to be able to speak good
    English when I can barley order a beer in any other language.
    (even or especially in the USA)

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeparatedByACommonLanguage


    ChrisA
  • Steven D'Aprano at Nov 15, 2013 at 6:25 am

    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:


    As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant to expect
    everyone else to be able to speak good English when I can barley order a
    beer in any other language. (even or especially in the USA)

    Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)


    No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error to make.
    The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain similar to wheat or
    oats. Also "far too arrogant".


    But yes, English is a tricky language. Who would imagine that "ghoti"
    could legitimately be pronounced "fish"?


    "gh" sounds like F, as in "enough" (enuf)


    "o" sounds like I, as in "women" (wimmin)


    "ti" sounds like SH, as in "station" (stayshun)






    --
    Steven
  • Neil Cerutti at Nov 15, 2013 at 4:53 pm

    On 2013-11-15, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:
    As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant
    to expect everyone else to be able to speak good English when
    I can barley order a beer in any other language. (even or
    especially in the USA)
    Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)

    No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error
    to make. The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain
    similar to wheat or oats. Also "far too arrogant".

    I just learned about this kind of error yesterday while browsing
    the programming reddit!


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law


    --
    Neil Cerutti
  • Alister at Nov 15, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:53:58 +0000, Neil Cerutti wrote:

    On 2013-11-15, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:
    As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant to expect
    everyone else to be able to speak good English when I can barley order
    a beer in any other language. (even or especially in the USA)
    Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)

    No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error to make.
    The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain similar to wheat
    or oats. Also "far too arrogant".

    Damn Spell checker, at least it chose a good pun I could almost get away
    with claiming it was deliberate ;-)


    But also proves the point that if an Englishman can make simple mistakes
    after nearly half a century of usage then the no native speakers should
    be admired for doing as well as they do,
    I just learned about this kind of error yesterday while browsing the
    programming reddit!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

    except I was not correcting/criticising a grammatical error but defending
    those than make them.










    --
    Lawrence Radiation Laboratory keeps all its data in an old gray trunk.
  • Alister at Nov 15, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:12:27 +0000, Alister wrote:

    On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:53:58 +0000, Neil Cerutti wrote:

    On 2013-11-15, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
    wrote:
    On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:03:44 +0000, Alister wrote:
    As a native of England I have to agree it is far to arrogant to
    expect everyone else to be able to speak good English when I can
    barley order a beer in any other language. (even or especially in the
    USA)
    Apparently you can "barley" write UK English either :-)

    No offence intended, I just thought that was an amusing error to make.
    The word you're after is "barely", barley is a grain similar to wheat
    or oats. Also "far too arrogant".
    Damn Spell checker, at least it chose a good pun I could almost get away
    with claiming it was deliberate ;-)

    But also proves the point that if an Englishman can make simple mistakes
    after nearly half a century of usage then the no native speakers should
    be admired for doing as well as they do,
    I just learned about this kind of error yesterday while browsing the
    programming reddit!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law
    except I was not correcting/criticising a grammatical error but
    defending those than make them.

    and if you haven't seen it before :-


    Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
    waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
    the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
    mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn
    mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.










    --
    Liar:
      one who tells an unpleasant truth.
       -- Oliver Herford
  • Ian Kelly at Nov 19, 2013 at 8:53 am

    On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Alister wrote:
    and if you haven't seen it before :-

    Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
    waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
    the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
    mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn
    mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

    And the obligatory response:


    Iltnsegnetiry I'm sdutynig tihs crsrootaivnel pnoheenmon at the
    Dptmnearet of Liuniigctss at Absytrytewh Uivsreitny and my
    exartrnairdoy doisiervecs waleoetderhlhy cndairotct the picsbeliud
    fdnngiis rrgdinaeg the rtlvaeie dfuictlify of ialtnstny ttalrisanng
    sentences. My rsceeerhars deplveeod a cnionevent ctnoiaptorn at
    hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il taht dosnatterems that the
    hhpsteyios uuiqelny wrtaarns criieltidby if the aoussmpitn that the
    prreoecandpne of your wrods is not eendetxd is uueniqtolnabse.
    Aoilegpos for aidnoptg a cdocianorttry vwpiienot but, ttoheliacrley
    spkeaing, lgitehnneng the words can mnartafucue an iocnuurgons
    samenttet that is vlrtiauly isbpilechmoenrne.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 9:26 am

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:
    Aoilegpos for aidnoptg a cdocianorttry vwpiienot but, ttoheliacrley
    spkeaing, lgitehnneng the words can mnartafucue an iocnuurgons
    samenttet that is vlrtiauly isbpilechmoenrne.

    isbpilechmoenrne. I totally want to find an excuse to use that word
    somewhere.. It just looks awesome.


    Paradoxically, it's actually more likely that a computer can figure
    out what you're saying here. In fact, I could easily write a little
    script that reads /usr/share/dict/words (or equivalent) and attempts
    to decode your paragraph. Hmm. You know what, I think I will. It's now
    0958 UTC, let's see how long this takes me.


    Meh. I did something stupid and decided to use a regular expression.
    It's not 1020 UTC, so that's 21 minutes of figuring out what I was
    doing wrong with the regex and 1 minute solving the original problem.
    But here's your translated paragraph:


    -- cut --
    Interestingly I'm studying this controversial phenomenon at the
    Department of Linguistics at Absytrytewh University and my
    extraordinary discoveries wholeheartedly contradict the picsbeliud
    findings regarding the relative difficulty of instantly translating
    sentences. My researchers developed a convenient contraption at
    hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il that demonstrates that the
    hypothesis uniquely warrants credibility if the assumption that the
    preponderance of your words is not extended is unquestionable.
    Apologies for adopting a contradictory viewpoint but, theoretically
    speaking, lengthening the words can manufacture an incongruous
    statement that is virtually incomprehensible.
    -- cut --


    It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
    "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
    as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
    maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:


    words = {}
    for word in open("/usr/share/dict/words"):
         word=word.strip().lower()
         transformed = word if len(word)==1 else
    word[0]+''.join(sorted(word[1:-1]))+word[-1]
         words.setdefault(transformed,set()).add(word)
         words.setdefault(transformed.capitalize(),set()).add(word.capitalize())


    import re
    for line in open("input"):
         line=line.strip()
         for word in re.split("(\W+)",line):
             try:
                 transformed = word if len(word)==1 else
    word[0]+''.join(sorted(word[1:-1]))+word[-1]
                 realword=words[transformed]
                 if len(realword)>1: realword=repr(realword)
                 else: realword=next(iter(realword))
                 line=line.replace(word,realword)
             except LookupError: # catches three errors, all of which mean
    we shouldn't translate anything
                 pass
         print(line)




    Yeah, it's not the greatest code, but it works :)


    ChrisA
  • Ian Kelly at Nov 19, 2013 at 9:37 am

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
    "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
    as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
    maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:

    It's been posted widely on the Internet, and you can probably find the
    full solution by googling it up. For now, I'll just leave the hints
    that the name of the university is Welsh, and that the second word
    above is spelled in the British way, which is probably why your script
    couldn't find it in a dictionary.
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 19, 2013 at 9:54 am

    On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
    It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
    "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
    as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
    maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:

    I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the
    teaching of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name
    when it's put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be
    turning in her grave :)


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 10:48 am

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:


    It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
    "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
    as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
    maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:
    I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the teaching
    of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name when it's
    put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be turning in her
    grave :)

    Oh, I recognized Aberystwyth (though I can't spell it without the help
    of a search engine), it was the second I wasn't sure about. (Though
    Ian was right - I was working with a limited dictionary, which is why
    it didn't pick that one up.) I guessed Scots for the second one
    because it didn't look Welsh and it seemed plausible to get a
    mostly-English paragraph with one Welsh name and one Scots word.
    Wrong, but hopefully not so implausibly wrong as to cause gyration of
    the encephalographically-challenged.


    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
    came up in a fantasy name generator.


    Okay, maybe that's not exactly fair, but I'd still be curious to know
    how many of you know Aussie place names :)


    ChrisA
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 19, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:
    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
    came up in a fantasy name generator.

    Okay, maybe that's not exactly fair, but I'd still be curious to know
    how many of you know Aussie place names :)

    An interesting comparison as your country is slightly larger than ours,
    but I suspect we've actually many more place names. Still with no
    search engine at all, I've heard of Parramatta so they must have one or
    more sports teams, so sticking a pin onto my screen I'll guess at
    Cerinabbin, close or must try harder?


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Tim Golden at Nov 19, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    On 19/11/2013 13:50, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
    came up in a fantasy name generator.

    I thought that's how they came up with Australian place names normally?


    TJG
  • Mark Lawrence at Nov 19, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    On 19/11/2013 13:55, Tim Golden wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 13:50, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
    came up in a fantasy name generator.
    I thought that's how they came up with Australian place names normally?

    TJG

    Thinking about it perhaps "fantasy name generator" is a modern day,
    politically correct term for an Aussie who's had too many beers? That
    would put the question above firmly into context.


    --
    Python is the second best programming language in the world.
    But the best has yet to be invented. Christian Tismer


    Mark Lawrence
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Tim Golden wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 13:50, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 10:48, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it. I've been to three of the above places, the other one
    came up in a fantasy name generator.
    I thought that's how they came up with Australian place names normally?

    Certainly not. The early white settlers had a very sophisticated
    technique for naming places, and one that showed great respect for the
    prior owners of the land: find the nearest person with darker skin
    than yours, point to the surrounding area, and say "What's this place
    called?". That's why most Australian place names translate to, in the
    local language of the area, "Huh?" or "What do you mean?" or "I
    haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, old chap", or
    occasionally "Place of the Elbow" or "Dung Heap" once they figured out
    how easy these people were to troll.


    No, the fantasy name generators are used in the US of A. And Canada
    just picks someone else's place name and adds "-eh" to it.


    ChrisA
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 10:50 am

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    On 19/11/2013 09:26, Chris Angelico wrote:


    It couldn't figure out "Absytrytewh", "picsbeliud", or
    "hnasoa/tw.nartswdbvweos/utrtek:p./il". That's not a bad result. (And
    as a human, I'm guessing that the second one isn't an English word -
    maybe it's Scots?) Here's the code:
    I sense another letter to your Minister for Education regarding the teaching
    of Geography. Fancy not recognising a well known UK place name when it's
    put right in front of you. And Scots indeed, my mum will be turning in her
    grave :)

    Oh, I think I see where the misunderstanding may have been. I said
    "It" couldn't figure those out, meaning the script; one of them isn't
    a word at all, another one is a place name (and therefore not in its
    dictionary), and one happened to be a form of the word that it didn't
    have (as it had the equivalent with a 'z'), and I wasn't able to
    figure it out myself either. But I grokked the university's name no
    trouble. No other university has that many y's and so few other
    vowels. :)


    ChrisA
  • Walter Hurry at Nov 19, 2013 at 11:53 am

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:48:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:


    I guessed Scots for the second one because it
    didn't look Welsh and it seemed plausible to get a mostly-English
    paragraph with one Welsh name and one Scots word.

    The word is *Scottish*. I think that's what Mark was driving at.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 11:58 am

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, Walter Hurry wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:48:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    I guessed Scots for the second one because it
    didn't look Welsh and it seemed plausible to get a mostly-English
    paragraph with one Welsh name and one Scots word.
    The word is *Scottish*. I think that's what Mark was driving at.

    Oh. I've heard both, thought "Scots" was a valid term for the
    language. My apologies. Scottish, then.


    ChrisA
  • Alister at Nov 19, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 22:58:35 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, Walter Hurry wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:48:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    I guessed Scots for the second one because it didn't look Welsh and it
    seemed plausible to get a mostly-English paragraph with one Welsh name
    and one Scots word.
    The word is *Scottish*. I think that's what Mark was driving at.
    Oh. I've heard both, thought "Scots" was a valid term for the language.
    My apologies. Scottish, then.

    ChrisA

    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch is
    a type of whisky.




    --
    You should never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for
    freedom and liberty.
       -- Henrik Ibsen
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch is
    a type of whisky.

    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:


    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-August/030264.html


    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you
    in on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?


    ChrisA
  • Alister at Nov 19, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch
    is a type of whisky.
    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-
    August/030264.html
    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you in
    on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

    ChrisA

    To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
    approximation there of)






    --
    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
  • Alister at Nov 19, 2013 at 12:59 pm

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch
    is a type of whisky.
    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-
    August/030264.html
    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you in
    on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

    ChrisA

    To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
    approximation there of)






    --
    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
  • MRAB at Nov 19, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    On 19/11/2013 12:59, Alister wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com>
    wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch
    is a type of whisky.
    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-
    August/030264.html
    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you in
    on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

    ChrisA
    To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
    approximation there of)
    You need to distinguish between "Scottish English" and "Scots", the
    latter being related to English, but isn't English, much as Danish is
    related to Swedish, but isn't Swedish.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 19, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:06 AM, MRAB wrote:
    You need to distinguish between "Scottish English" and "Scots", the
    latter being related to English, but isn't English, much as Danish is
    related to Swedish, but isn't Swedish.

    Ah. When I referred to a "Scots" word, I was talking about the Gaelic
    language, which has a number of delightfully expressive terms just
    waiting to be borrowed!


    ChrisA
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 20, 2013 at 3:44 pm

    On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:06 AM, MRAB wrote:
    You need to distinguish between "Scottish English" and "Scots", the
    latter being related to English, but isn't English, much as Danish is
    related to Swedish, but isn't Swedish.
    Ah. When I referred to a "Scots" word, I was talking about the Gaelic
    language, which has a number of delightfully expressive terms just
    waiting to be borrowed!

    By the way: I've since been corrected, and what I meant was not
    actually the Scottish Gaelic language but the one that is actually
    referred to as "Scots". My clarification was unhelpfully unclear, and
    I apologize.


    ChrisA
  • Alister at Nov 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch
    is a type of whisky.
    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-
    August/030264.html
    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you in
    on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

    ChrisA

    To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
    approximation there of)






    --
    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
  • Alister at Nov 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 23:52:09 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Alister wrote:
    the language & nationality is Scottish, the people are Scots & Scotch
    is a type of whisky.
    Hmm, I don't know that it's that clear-cut (other than the drink).
    Derrick McClure is himself a Scot, and he posted this on Savoynet:

    https://mailman.bridgewater.edu/pipermail/savoynet/2013-
    August/030264.html
    Note his use of "Scots" to mean the language. Derrick, I'm cc'ing you in
    on this: have I been led astray here by misreading your post?

    ChrisA

    To be pedantic the language most Scots speak is English (or at least an
    approximation there of)






    --
    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 20, 2013 at 2:52 pm
    Here's a response from a full-blooded Scot on the subject.

    On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 8:29 PM, Derrick McCLURE wrote:
    No, Chris, you haven't been led astray. The language is referred to as
    Scots, not Scottish. There is an academic journal called Scottish Language,
    which I edited for many years, but the meaning of that is "language in
    Scotland" - it publishes articles on Scots, Gaelic, and English as used in
    Scotland.

    So there you are. Your piece of random linguistics trivia for the day. :)


    Enjoy!


    ChrisA
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 20, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico wrote:


    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it.

    Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.


    --
    Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! If I had a Q-TIP, I
                                       at could prevent th' collapse
                                   gmail.com of NEGOTIATIONS!!
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 20, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it.
    Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.

    Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
    which teams are real and which are integer.


    ChrisA
  • Tim Golden at Nov 20, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    On 20/11/2013 16:19, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it.
    Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.
    Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
    which teams are real and which are integer.

    Which one was it, by the way? (Which was the fake place name?) Did I
    miss an email in this gripping series?


    TJG
  • Chris Angelico at Nov 20, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Tim Golden wrote:
    On 20/11/2013 16:19, Chris Angelico wrote:
    On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2013-11-19, Chris Angelico wrote:

    Anyway, we Aussies know more about your geography than you know about
    ours, I reckon. Which of these is not a real place: Parramatta,
    Warrnambool, Cerinabbin, Mordialloc? No fair Googling them, see if you
    can call it.
    Next thing you'll be telling us that the Eels are a real rugby team.
    Wouldn't have the foggiest. I don't follow sport, so I don't know
    which teams are real and which are integer.
    Which one was it, by the way? (Which was the fake place name?) Did I
    miss an email in this gripping series?

    I got a private email guessing (correctly), but nobody who actually
    _knew_, and nobody who was able to deduce the answer based on the
    structure of the words, which means I picked a sufficiently plausible
    fake :) But the actual fake is Cerinabbin, utterly and completely made
    up for the post. Parramatta is apparently known to a few people - it's
    in Sydney; Warrnambool and Mordialloc are both places in Victoria.


    ChrisA
  • Walter Hurry at Nov 20, 2013 at 4:59 pm

    On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:33:02 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:


    But the actual fake is Cerinabbin

    You might have included Woolloomooloo in the list!
  • Grant Edwards at Nov 20, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    On 2013-11-20, Walter Hurry wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 03:33:02 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

    But the actual fake is Cerinabbin
    You might have included Woolloomooloo in the list!

    Anybody from the early days of TCP/IP networking on PC-DOS and Mac OS
    would also recognize Wollongong even if they couldn't tell you where
    it was.


    --
    Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I had pancake makeup
                                       at for brunch!
                                   gmail.com

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