FAQ
Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
other type of syntax?

Help is appreciated!

def RunCommand( commandList ):
commandString =
print( 'Running Command:', )
cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
returnCode = cmd.wait()
if returnCode:
failMsg = '''\
*************************************************
The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
This represents failure of some form. Please review
the command output for more details on the issue.
------------
{}
*************************************************
'''
commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
commandString ) )

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  • Robert Dailey at Aug 11, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    On Aug 11, 3:08?pm, Robert Dailey wrote:
    Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
    close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
    readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
    definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
    indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
    actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
    in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
    improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
    string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
    document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
    other type of syntax?

    Help is appreciated!

    def RunCommand( commandList ):
    ? ?commandString =
    ? ?print( 'Running Command:', ?)
    ? ?cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
    ? ?returnCode = cmd.wait()
    ? ?if returnCode:
    ? ? ? failMsg = '''\
    *************************************************
    The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
    This represents failure of some form. Please review
    the command output for more details on the issue.
    ------------
    {}
    *************************************************
    '''
    ? ? ? commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
    ? ? ? raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
    commandString ) )
    And yes, I recognize there are syntax errors. Ignore those for now.
  • Mark Lawrence at Aug 11, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 11, 3:08 pm, Robert Dailey wrote:
    Hey guys. Being a C++ programmer, I like to keep variable definitions
    close to the location in which they will be used. This improves
    readability in many ways. However, when I have a multi-line string
    definition at function level scope, things get tricky because of the
    indents. In this case indents are serving two purposes: For syntax and
    actual text output. The tabs for function scope should not be included
    in the contents of the string. Below is the code I am trying to
    improve. Notice how it looks ugly/unreadable because of the way the
    string contents are shifted all the way to the left edge of the
    document. This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope? Perhaps through some
    other type of syntax?

    Help is appreciated!

    def RunCommand( commandList ):
    commandString =
    print( 'Running Command:', )
    cmd = subprocess.Popen( commandList )
    returnCode = cmd.wait()
    if returnCode:
    failMsg = '''\
    *************************************************
    The following command returned exit code [{:#x}].
    This represents failure of some form. Please review
    the command output for more details on the issue.
    ------------
    {}
    *************************************************
    '''
    commandString = ' '.join( commandList )
    raise CommandFailure( failMsg.format( returnCode,
    commandString ) )
    And yes, I recognize there are syntax errors. Ignore those for now.
    For starters take a look at http://tinyurl.com/o2o8r8 , just about every
    combination of string concatenation going there. I assume that one of
    these will let you leave failMsg where it belongs.

    --
    Kindest regards.

    Mark Lawrence.


    From http Tue Aug 11 22:31:34 2009
    From: http (Paul Rubin)
    Date: 11 Aug 2009 13:31:34 -0700
    Subject: Scraping Wikipedia with Python
    References: <mailman.4581.1250012022.8015.python-list@python.org>
    <4a81b6f0$0$1590$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
    <mailman.4585.1250015382.8015.python-list@python.org>
    <6YidncRAiJ6SIxzXRVn_vwA@giganews.com>
    <mailman.4590.1250018049.8015.python-list@python.org>
    Message-ID: <7xd472hz2x.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

    Dotan Cohen <dotancohen at gmail.com> writes:
    Thanks. I read the first bit of that page, but did not finish it.
    Grepping it for Python led to to what I need.
    maybe you want dbpedia.
  • Bearophile at Aug 11, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope?
    Perhaps through some other type of syntax?
    There are gals too here.
    This may help:
    http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent

    Bye,
    bearophile
  • Robert Dailey at Aug 11, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope?
    Perhaps through some other type of syntax?
    There are gals too here.
    This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent

    Bye,
    bearophile
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
  • Simon Brunning at Aug 12, 2009 at 8:21 am

    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdailey at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.

    --
    Cheers,
    Simon B.
  • Jean-Michel Pichavant at Aug 12, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdailey at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:

    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot
    be qualified as "prevalent in our industry". I would even dare to say
    this is the opposite, it is almost unique.
    I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I consider
    his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist aggression. I'm no
    women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not to say more, of
    making the distinction.

    It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not
    make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking
    helpers.

    JM
  • Exarkun at Aug 12, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    On 01:27 pm, jeanmichel at sequans.com wrote:
    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdailey at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot
    be qualified as "prevalent in our industry". I would even dare to say
    this is the opposite, it is almost unique.
    I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I
    consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist
    aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not
    to say more, of making the distinction.

    It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not
    make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking
    helpers.
    It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an
    environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards
    others. You might read it as a joke, others might not. Even if it is a
    joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list.

    There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and
    being unfriendly. Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. That's
    what the list is here for. Having accomplished that, it is not
    unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, "jokes" or
    otherwise, about groups of people.

    Jean-Paul
  • Robert Dailey at Aug 12, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    On Aug 12, 9:09?am, exar... at twistedmatrix.com wrote:
    On 01:27 pm, jeanmic... at sequans.com wrote:




    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdai... at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot
    be qualified as "prevalent in our industry". I would even dare to say
    this is the opposite, it is almost unique.
    I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I
    consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist
    aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not
    to say more, of making the distinction.
    It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not
    make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking
    helpers.
    It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an
    environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards
    others. ?You might read it as a joke, others might not. ?Even if it is a
    joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list.

    There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and
    being unfriendly. ?Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. ?That's
    what the list is here for. ?Having accomplished that, it is not
    unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, "jokes" or
    otherwise, about groups of people.

    Jean-Paul
    Hey everyone,

    I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact
    that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with
    a lot of women in the past and they even use "guys" to refer to
    everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that
    room as well).

    On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark.
    I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I
    expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so
    serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical
    women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean
    I'm a sexist.

    With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the
    discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this
    thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the
    issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully
    you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense,
    please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for
    your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really
    appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving!

    Take care everyone!
  • Robert Dailey at Aug 12, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    On Aug 12, 9:41?am, Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 12, 9:09?am, exar... at twistedmatrix.com wrote:




    On 01:27 pm, jeanmic... at sequans.com wrote:

    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdai... at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot
    be qualified as "prevalent in our industry". I would even dare to say
    this is the opposite, it is almost unique.
    I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I
    consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist
    aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not
    to say more, of making the distinction.
    It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not
    make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking
    helpers.
    It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an
    environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards
    others. ?You might read it as a joke, others might not. ?Even if it is a
    joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list.
    There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and
    being unfriendly. ?Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. ?That's
    what the list is here for. ?Having accomplished that, it is not
    unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, "jokes" or
    otherwise, about groups of people.
    Jean-Paul
    Hey everyone,

    I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact
    that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with
    a lot of women in the past and they even use "guys" to refer to
    everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that
    room as well).

    On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark.
    I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I
    expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so
    serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical
    women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean
    I'm a sexist.

    With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the
    discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this
    thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the
    issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully
    you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense,
    please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for
    your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really
    appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving!

    Take care everyone!
    Oh, one last thing... So everyone knows, I chose the following
    formatting solution to multiline strings:

    def MyFunction():
    multilineString = (
    'This is a string that spans '
    'multiple lines.'
    )
    print( multilineString )

    I think this is as good as it is going to get for my personal needs.
    However, I do not like having to put a space at the end of each
    string. I've also done this in the past, which is slightly more ugly:

    multilineString = (
    'This is a string that spans',
    'multiple lines.'
    )
    print( ' '.join( multilineString ) )

    This will add the spaces between lines for you. However, in a
    production quality application I would always have strings external to
    the scripts and have an advanced localization system. However this is
    useful for quick little scripts that I want to keep tidy.
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 12, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 07:47:58 -0700, Robert Dailey wrote:

    On Aug 12, 9:41?am, Robert Dailey wrote:
    ...
    I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact
    that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally.
    Keep in mind that the Internet is a global forum, and not everyone here
    speaks English as a first language. I believe Bearophile is one of those.
    Although his, or possibly her, English is excellent, it wouldn't surprise
    me that (s)he would misinterpret "guys" as just referring to men. I'm a
    native English speaker, and I would have done the same.

    I have worked with
    a lot of women in the past and they even use "guys" to refer to
    everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that
    room as well).
    Yes, I've seen this myself, but it's still uncommon enough to surprise me
    every time I see it.

    On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark.
    I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I
    expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so
    serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical
    women out there. I just haven't seen one yet.
    That's okay, I haven't seen terribly many logical men out there either.

    Oh, one last thing... So everyone knows, I chose the following
    formatting solution to multiline strings:

    def MyFunction():
    multilineString = (
    'This is a string that spans '
    'multiple lines.'
    )
    print( multilineString )

    I think this is as good as it is going to get for my personal needs.
    However, I do not like having to put a space at the end of each
    string.
    So put them at the beginning of the next line. It makes the space more
    obvious, so it's clearer what you have done. That's what I sometimes do.

    I've also done this in the past, which is slightly more ugly:

    multilineString = (
    'This is a string that spans',
    'multiple lines.'
    )
    print( ' '.join( multilineString ) )

    It's also less efficient, as it does the concatenation at runtime instead
    of compile time. But for a small script, that's not likely to be a
    problem worth worrying about.



    --
    Steven
  • Simon Forman at Aug 12, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    On Aug 12, 10:41?am, Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 12, 9:09?am, exar... at twistedmatrix.com wrote:


    On 01:27 pm, jeanmic... at sequans.com wrote:

    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdai... at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Having someone present technical informations with porn content cannot
    be qualified as "prevalent in our industry". I would even dare to say
    this is the opposite, it is almost unique.
    I would also add that Robert was very far from this attitude, I
    consider his joke as a friendly tickle, not a male chauvinist
    aggression. I'm no women, but I'm sure they are as capable as me, not
    to say more, of making the distinction.
    It has been said this list is not very friendly to newbies, let's not
    make it hostile to gentle jokes (even those not funny) when thanking
    helpers.
    It's lots of little things like this which combine to create an
    environment which is less friendly towards women than it is towards
    others. ?You might read it as a joke, others might not. ?Even if it is a
    joke, it's in poor taste and doesn't really belong on python-list.
    There's a difference between pointing out inappropriate behavior and
    being unfriendly. ?Hopefully Robert got help with his problem. ?That's
    what the list is here for. ?Having accomplished that, it is not
    unfriendly to ask him not to make disparaging comments, "jokes" or
    otherwise, about groups of people.
    Jean-Paul
    Hey everyone,

    I was actually joking about my remark, I was making fun of the fact
    that Bearophile took my figure of speech literally. I have worked with
    a lot of women in the past and they even use "guys" to refer to
    everyone in a room (When there were obviously other females in that
    room as well).

    On a more serious note, I do apologize to those offended by my remark.
    I realize that these things can be a touchy subject for some people. I
    expected more of a laid-back attitude from everyone. No need to be so
    serious all the time. I cannot completely doubt that there are logical
    women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean
    I'm a sexist.
    Oh my. And you were doing so well. You haven't seen a logical
    woman? Perhaps you're blind because your eyes were torn out by a
    raging marmoset?

    Guess what? Thinking (or just saying) that /does/ mean you're a
    sexist. (Even if it was just another "friendly, harmless joke".)



    With my apology presented, I would like to propose that we end the
    discussion here. As I said, this is a very sensitive subject and this
    thread could spin way out of control if we don't just ignore the
    issue. For those that took it as a friendly, harmless joke, hopefully
    you had a laugh. For those that took it seriously or as an offense,
    please take my apology to heart. Thanks once again to everyone for
    your help. I've long been a member of this community and I really
    appreciate the continuous support I've been receiving!

    Take care everyone!
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 12, 2009 at 3:58 pm
    On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:11:43 -0700, Simon Forman wrote:

    [quoting Robert Dailey]
    I cannot completely doubt that there are logical
    women out there. I just haven't seen one yet. But that doesn't mean I'm
    a sexist.
    Oh my. And you were doing so well. You haven't seen a logical woman?
    Perhaps you're blind because your eyes were torn out by a raging
    marmoset?

    Guess what? Thinking (or just saying) that /does/ mean you're a sexist.
    (Even if it was just another "friendly, harmless joke".)
    It was an incredibly insensitive thing for Robert to say, having just
    been slapped for a previous insensitive "joke" about women. But still,
    most people, male or female, *aren't* logical. I know I've never met
    somebody who is entirely logical, of either sex, and I'm pretty sure I've
    not met very many people who are even mostly logical. Vulcans we are not.
    Does this mean I'm equally sexist against men *and* women? ("I'm not
    biased, I hate everyone equally!" *wink*)

    Hell, here I am, at 2am, defending somebody I don't know, for saying
    something I don't approve of, against somebody who is saying something I
    agree with, out of some sort of misguided sense of fairness. Logic? Ha,
    what's logic got to do with it?



    --
    Steven
  • Hendrik van Rooyen at Aug 12, 2009 at 9:04 am

    On Tuesday 11 August 2009 22:52:34 Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope?
    Perhaps through some other type of syntax?
    There are gals too here.
    This may
    help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent

    Bye,
    bearophile
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well it may come as a surprise to you, but it was a woman who
    wrote one of the first compilers.

    She became an Admiral in the US navy as a result.

    If I recall correctly, her name was Grace Hooper.

    How many compilers have you written from scratch,
    without a compiler to help you?

    :-)

    - Hendrik
  • MRAB at Aug 12, 2009 at 10:01 am

    Hendrik van Rooyen wrote:
    On Tuesday 11 August 2009 22:52:34 Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope?
    Perhaps through some other type of syntax?
    There are gals too here.
    This may
    help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent

    Bye,
    bearophile
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well it may come as a surprise to you, but it was a woman who
    wrote one of the first compilers.

    She became an Admiral in the US navy as a result.

    If I recall correctly, her name was Grace Hooper.
    Grace Hopper. The saying "It's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to
    get permission" is attributed to her.
    How many compilers have you written from scratch,
    without a compiler to help you?

    :-)
  • Aahz at Aug 17, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    In article <461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8bcd at o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
    Robert Dailey wrote:
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of
    sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve
    the situation to join the new diversity list:

    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
    right there." --Steve Gonedes
  • Jean-Michel Pichavant at Aug 17, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Aahz wrote:
    In article <461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8bcd at o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
    Robert Dailey wrote:
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of
    sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve
    the situation to join the new diversity list:

    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
    Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its
    sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd
    like to know about it.
    I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some
    clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on.
    How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ?

    That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design.
    We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to
    mention how open minded we are :o)

    Beside, the day you'll meet a real act of sexism in this list, please
    know that people talk and act on their own, do not assign their attitude
    to the whole community.
    You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No
    women allowed' on the python main document page.

    JM

    PS : Newbies are not welcome here !
  • Rami Chowdhury at Aug 17, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No
    women allowed' on the python main document page.
    Good God I hope you're being ironic.

    On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:23:39 -0700, Jean-Michel Pichavant
    wrote:
    Aahz wrote:
    In article
    <461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8bcd at o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
    Robert Dailey wrote:
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of
    sexism in the Python community. I encourage anyone who wants to improve
    the situation to join the new diversity list:

    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/diversity
    Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its
    sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd
    like to know about it.
    I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some
    clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on.
    How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ?

    That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design.
    We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to
    mention how open minded we are :o)

    Beside, the day you'll meet a real act of sexism in this list, please
    know that people talk and act on their own, do not assign their attitude
    to the whole community.
    You'll know that Python is sexist the day you'll find the title 'No
    women allowed' on the python main document page.

    JM

    PS : Newbies are not welcome here !


    --
    Rami Chowdhury
    "Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to stupidity" --
    Hanlon's Razor
    408-597-7068 (US) / 07875-841-046 (UK) / 0189-245544 (BD)
  • Paul Boddie at Aug 17, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    On 17 Aug, 19:23, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:
    Are you suggesting this list reject part of the community regarding its
    sexual orientation, ethnicity, size, culture? If that was the case I'd
    like to know about it.
    Careful: you probably meant to write "rejects", not "reject". That
    changes the meaning of what you've written somewhat.
    I would really want to know how you'd guess my gender (could be some
    clue somewhere), my sexual orientation, my religion and so on.
    How can you reject someone regarding informations you don't have ?
    Well, everyone can of course hide their actual identity on the
    Internet, but when someone references a group of people with a
    juvenile remark (if we are being charitable about the matter), it has
    nothing to do with guessing the characteristics of individuals. The
    whole excuse that anonymity defends against insults and harassment is
    a bit like saying that slinging mud at everyone is acceptable as long
    as everyone is encouraged to do it and nobody is wearing their nicest
    clothes. And unless your idea of a Python-related conference is
    something close to a fancy-dress event with everyone "in character" -
    which would obviously limit the effectiveness of such an event - you
    presumably understand that there is a genuine need for continuity
    between interactions on and off the Internet. This somewhat undermines
    your argument.
    That's the beauty of this mailing list, it has diversity, by design.
    An explanation is needed here for this not to sound like
    conversational padding.
    We even welcome people that mixes up joke with sexist aggression, not to
    mention how open minded we are :o)
    Well, jokes actually need an amusing side, regardless of how
    "edgy" ("juvenile" is typically the more accurate term) the joke-
    teller is trying to be, and that was completely absent from the remark
    in question. There's little room for error in communication over a
    medium like this one, as I pointed out with your opening sentence. And
    much as it probably upsets the "unfettered free speech" advocates, we
    should be able to assert that "sexist aggression" is not acceptable
    behaviour amongst those who seek to participate in our community.

    Paul
  • Carl Banks at Aug 17, 2009 at 9:12 pm

    On Aug 17, 8:44?am, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    In article <461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8... at o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
    Robert Dailey ?wrote:


    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of
    sexism in the Python community.
    Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of
    reflection of the community as a whole.

    Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to
    avoid bad eggs altogether. Price you pay for popularity.


    Carl Banks
  • Chris Rebert at Aug 17, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Carl Bankswrote:
    On Aug 17, 8:44?am, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    In article <461cc6f1-fc23-4bc7-a719-6f29babf8... at o15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
    Robert Dailey ?wrote:
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Well, I'm sorry to see this, it means I was wrong about the lack of
    sexism in the Python community.
    Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of
    reflection of the community as a whole.

    Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to
    avoid bad eggs altogether. ?Price you pay for popularity.
    Agreed on both points, but the lack of any reprimanding for making
    said inappropriate joke /would/ reflect badly on the community.
    Fortunately, said person's behavior has now been condemned by virtue
    of this thread; it's a step in the right direction.

    Cheers,
    Chris
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 18, 2009 at 4:34 am

    On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:31:51 -0700, Chris Rebert wrote:

    Oh come on, one newbie making an off-color joke is not any sort of
    reflection of the community as a whole.

    Anyway it's pretty naive to expect what is now a large community to
    avoid bad eggs altogether. ?Price you pay for popularity.
    Agreed on both points, but the lack of any reprimanding for making said
    inappropriate joke /would/ reflect badly on the community. Fortunately,
    said person's behavior has now been condemned by virtue of this thread;
    it's a step in the right direction.
    Pardon me, but he has been slapped, a number of times. Check the original
    thread, you'll see that the OP was slapped for his stupid joke, then
    slapped again for another dismissive comment after the first reprimand.

    You might argue he wasn't slapped *enough*, but that's another story.
    Personally, I thought he was either trolling for a reaction, or he was an
    old-fuddy-duddy (regardless of biological age), and either way reacting
    to his comments would just draw attention to something which is best
    dealt with with a cold-shoulder. Reinforce the good behaviour, shun the
    bad.

    The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention?



    --
    Steven
  • Aahz at Aug 18, 2009 at 4:45 am
    In article <pan.2009.08.18.04.34.57 at REMOVE.THIS.cybersource.com.au>,
    Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention?
    Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list.
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
    right there." --Steve Gonedes
  • Hendrik van Rooyen at Aug 18, 2009 at 10:12 am

    On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote:
    In article <pan.2009.08.18.04.34.57 at REMOVE.THIS.cybersource.com.au>,

    Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of attention?
    Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list.
    Here my English fails me - flog as in "whip", or flog as in "sell"?

    - Hendrik
  • Ben Finney at Aug 18, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Hendrik van Rooyen <hendrik at microcorp.co.za> writes:
    On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote:
    Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list.
    Here my English fails me - flog as in "whip", or flog as in "sell"?
    Yes :-)

    --
    \ ?The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in |
    `\ the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.? |
    _o__) ?Henry L. Mencken |
    Ben Finney
  • Hendrik van Rooyen at Aug 19, 2009 at 7:03 am

    On Tuesday 18 August 2009 12:38:36 Ben Finney wrote:
    Hendrik van Rooyen <hendrik at microcorp.co.za> writes:
    On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote:
    Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list.
    Here my English fails me - flog as in "whip", or flog as in "sell"?
    Yes :-)
    Thank you that clears it up.

    :-)

    - Hendrik
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 18, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:12:14 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote:
    On Tuesday 18 August 2009 06:45:39 Aahz wrote:
    In article <pan.2009.08.18.04.34.57 at REMOVE.THIS.cybersource.com.au>,

    Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of
    attention?
    Mainly an opportunity to flog the new diversity list.
    Here my English fails me - flog as in "whip", or flog as in "sell"?
    Almost certainly "flog" as in sell.

    But not literally sell, for money, but sell in the sense of convincing
    others it is a good list to join.



    --
    Steven
  • Ben Finney at Aug 18, 2009 at 5:07 am

    Steven D'Aprano <steven at REMOVE.THIS.cybersource.com.au> writes:

    The comments were made a week ago -- why the sudden flurry of
    attention?
    In my case, it's because I was ignoring the thread in which they were
    made. The change of subject drew them to my attention, where I saw the
    community response was (IMO) insufficient at the time, so I acted to
    correct that.

    Now that the community response is (IMO) more appropriate, there's no
    further need to beat on those particular comments. Additional
    transgressions could warrant additional responses, of course.

    --
    \ ?I got some new underwear the other day. Well, new to me.? ?Emo |
    `\ Philips |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
  • Piet van Oostrum at Aug 17, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Simon Brunning (SB) wrote:
    SB> 2009/8/11 Robert Dailey <rcdailey at gmail.com>:
    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    SB> Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    SB> <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    SB> don't think this is funny.
    seconded
    --
    Piet van Oostrum <piet at cs.uu.nl>
    URL: http://pietvanoostrum.com [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
    Private email: piet at vanoostrum.org
  • Ben Finney at Aug 17, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    Robert Dailey <rcdailey at gmail.com> writes:
    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by [?]
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech.
    Indeed. When I use the term ?guys? as a form of address, it's intended
    to be gender-neutral.
    And besides, why would I want programming advice from a woman? lol.
    No, that's not worth any laughter, especially because there are still
    too many people who seriously think that way. It's totally unacceptable.
    Please don't promote sexist garbage like that here.

    --
    \ ?With Lisp or Forth, a master programmer has unlimited power |
    `\ and expressiveness. With Python, even a regular guy can reach |
    _o__) for the stars.? ?Raymond Hettinger |
    Ben Finney
  • John Machin at Aug 17, 2009 at 11:59 pm

    On Aug 12, 6:52?am, Robert Dailey wrote:
    On Aug 11, 3:40?pm, Bearophile wrote:

    Robert Dailey:
    This breaks the flow of scope. Would you guys solve this
    problem by moving failMsg into global scope?
    Perhaps through some other type of syntax?
    There are gals too here.
    This may help:http://docs.python.org/library/textwrap.html#textwrap.dedent
    Bye,
    bearophile
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Please consider having an attitude transplant.
  • Steve Holden at Aug 18, 2009 at 3:55 pm
    Robert Dailey:
    [...]
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or
    not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see
    again.

    The problem is that we can't just "let these things go by" all the
    time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do
    that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a
    feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really
    like to see those *not* get a hold.

    regards
    Steve
  • Jean-Michel Pichavant at Aug 18, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Steve Holden wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    [...]
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or
    not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see
    again.

    The problem is that we can't just "let these things go by" all the
    time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do
    that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a
    feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really
    like to see those *not* get a hold.

    regards
    Steve
    Did you read the original post (this is an old one) ? Because quoting a
    joke out of its context is totally unfair.
    Anyway the hysteria that is surrounding this thread is just amazing. I'm
    waiting for more.

    JM
  • Simon Forman at Aug 18, 2009 at 9:13 pm

    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Jean-Michel Pichavantwrote:
    Steve Holden wrote:
    Robert Dailey:
    [...]
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Sorry, Robert, simply not acceptable. Whether designed to be funny or
    not it's the kind of inane remark I would be really happy never to see
    again.

    The problem is that we can't just "let these things go by" all the
    time (even though we aren't discussing a major crime here). If we do
    that it encourages (at best) an atmosphere of complacency and a
    feeling that it's OK to demean people in Python forums. I'd really
    like to see those *not* get a hold.

    regards
    ?Steve
    Did you read the original post (this is an old one) ? Because quoting a joke
    out of its context is totally unfair.
    Unfair to whom?

    In any event, the context here seems to be a mixture of Guy Fawkes
    trivia and general disapproval of sexist remarks on c.l.p, so I don't
    see this comment as "out of context".

    (For the record, I use "guys" to refer to groups of people regardless
    of their gender. I also use "dude" to refer to people regardless of
    their gender. The only person who has taken offense to this is my
    mom. "I am not a dude." But she means she's not a cowboy, not not a
    male.) (Uh, she is, in fact, female.)
    Anyway the hysteria that is surrounding this thread is just amazing. I'm
    waiting for more.
    I don't feel hysterical, only appalled.

    The OP used a common slang term, someone mentioned that the term
    implies a group of males when in fact the group being addressed is
    mixed gender, and the OP replied that it was "just a figure of
    speech".

    So far, so good. But then the OP made a sexist "joke". He was called
    on it and issued a rather gracious apology, but then he dropped
    another sexist turd right in the middle of his otherwise model
    apology.

    I won't speak for anyone else, but I was appalled.


    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from
    a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it)
    and this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery.

    We are one family.
  • Grant Edwards at Aug 18, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman wrote:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all
    stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as
    I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause
    of human misery.
    You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't
    Microsoft Windows?

    --
    Grant Edwards grante Yow! What I want to find
    at out is -- do parrots know
    visi.com much about Astro-Turf?
  • Emile van Sebille at Aug 18, 2009 at 10:39 pm
    On 8/18/2009 2:31 PM Unknown said...
    You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't
    Microsoft Windows?
    Either that or users...

    Sick-of-both-today-ly y'rs,

    Emile
  • Jean-Michel Pichavant at Aug 19, 2009 at 9:47 am

    Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman wrote:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all
    stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as
    I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause
    of human misery.
    You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't
    Microsoft Windows?
    No, emacs is responsible ! Hail to Vi !

    JM
  • Stefan Behnel at Aug 23, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:
    Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2009-08-18, Simon Forman wrote:
    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all
    stem from a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as
    I would put it) and this is perhaps the single greatest cause
    of human misery.
    You mean the single greatest cause of human misery isn't
    Microsoft Windows?
    No, emacs is responsible ! Hail to Vi !
    Heck, where's Godwin's law when you need it?

    Stefan
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 19, 2009 at 12:03 am

    On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a
    fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and
    Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the
    one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're
    supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not.

    this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery.
    Okay, we're Unified in God. Great. What does that actually mean, really?
    In the struggle to survive in a world of shortages, disease, natural
    disasters and disputes between well-meaning but incompatible viewpoints
    (to say nothing of the selfish and greedy), what practical difference
    does it make?


    --
    Steven
  • Simon Forman at Aug 19, 2009 at 3:43 am

    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Steven D'Apranowrote:
    On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a
    fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and
    Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the
    one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're
    supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not.
    Why the heck are you asking me? (I'd say "/you/ are the God you
    should believe in.")
    this is perhaps the single greatest cause of human misery.
    Okay, we're Unified in God. Great. What does that actually mean, really?
    In the struggle to survive in a world of shortages, disease, natural
    disasters and disputes between well-meaning but incompatible viewpoints
    (to say nothing of the selfish and greedy), what practical difference
    does it make?
    It means (to me, at least) that underlying all the BS and misery
    there's a reason to hope, a reality the transcends this squalid
    mud-ball Earth, and can overcome it completely if tapped.

    It's more than a symbol with meaning, Unity is a phenomenon that can
    be lived, experienced. It can be practiced and deepened. Done well,
    the practical difference it makes defies measurement.

    (That's why calling folks on sexist behavior is important enough to
    butt in on a thread on usenet with an OT reprimand. IMHO)

    Regards,
    ~Simon
  • Jean-Michel Pichavant at Aug 19, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Simon Forman wrote:
    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Steven
    D'Apranowrote:
    On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:02 -0400, Simon Forman wrote:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from a
    fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it) and
    Of the tens of thousands of Gods that people have invented, which is the
    one we're supposed to believe in? I always forget which ones we're
    supposed to dismiss as nonsense, and which one we're not.
    Why the heck are you asking me? (I'd say "/you/ are the God you
    should believe in.")
    Steven, a God... funny :o)

    No the only God we should surely worship is Guido, our BDFL :bow:. That
    is not questionable, and those who dare will be hung by the balls. (In
    order to be fairly cruel we should find an appropriate torture for our
    ladies, I don't want to be tagged as sexist).

    JM
  • Ben Finney at Aug 19, 2009 at 12:42 am

    Simon Forman <sajmikins at gmail.com> writes:

    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from
    a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it)
    It seems odd, for someone who cites religious intolerance as a problem,
    to then assert an extremely divisive religious idea.

    We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is
    surely counter to any goals of unity.
    We are one family.
    Agreed.

    --
    \ ?Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?? ?Uh... yeah, |
    `\ Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?? |
    _o__) ?_Pinky and The Brain_ |
    Ben Finney
  • Grant Edwards at Aug 19, 2009 at 3:23 am

    On 2009-08-19, Ben Finney wrote:
    Simon Forman <sajmikins at gmail.com> writes:
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    That's not much comfort if you've seen the way many families
    get along with each other.

    --
    Grant
  • Ben Finney at Aug 19, 2009 at 3:49 am

    Grant Edwards <grante at visi.com> writes:
    On 2009-08-19, Ben Finney wrote:
    Simon Forman <sajmikins at gmail.com> writes:
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    That's not much comfort if you've seen the way many families get along
    with each other.
    Demonstrable facts, by nature of being independently verifiable, are a
    better point of unification than comforting illusions, however
    confidently asserted.

    --
    \ ?Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than |
    `\ it ceases to be serious when people laugh.? ?George Bernard Shaw |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
  • Carl Banks at Aug 19, 2009 at 4:14 am

    On Aug 18, 8:49?pm, Ben Finney wrote:
    Grant Edwards <gra... at visi.com> writes:
    On 2009-08-19, Ben Finney wrote:
    Simon Forman <sajmik... at gmail.com> writes:
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    That's not much comfort if you've seen the way many families get along
    with each other.
    Demonstrable facts, by nature of being independently verifiable, are a
    better point of unification than comforting illusions, however
    confidently asserted.
    You know, if you're going to escalate a budding flame war the least
    you could do is to choose to do it some other way than by following up
    to an obvious joke, probably one designed to diffuse the ill-feeling.


    Carl Banks
  • Simon Forman at Aug 19, 2009 at 3:49 am

    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneywrote:
    Simon Forman <sajmikins at gmail.com> writes:
    Sexism, racism, homophobia, religious intolerance, etc., all stem from
    a fundamental forgetfulness of our Unity in God (as I would put it)
    It seems odd, for someone who cites religious intolerance as a problem,
    to then assert an extremely divisive religious idea.
    Well, I did say, "(as I would put it)" to try to cushion the blow.
    We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture is
    surely counter to any goals of unity.
    Unity "in humanity" is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity "in
    God". I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak.
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    <3
  • Ben Finney at Aug 19, 2009 at 4:05 am

    Simon Forman <sajmikins at gmail.com> writes:

    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneywrote:
    We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture
    is surely counter to any goals of unity.
    Unity "in humanity" is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity "in
    God".
    Then you're playing Humpty-Dumpty games with words. You know very well
    that ?God? has established meanings entirely different from ?humanity?,
    and those meanings played a part in your choice of that word.

    I maintain that you can't consistently make a declaration in favour of
    human unity and unfounded religious assertions.
    I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak.
    This is white noise.
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    <3
    I think we can peaceably leave it at that.

    --
    \ ?Spam will be a thing of the past in two years' time.? ?Bill |
    `\ Gates, 2004-01-24 |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
  • Simon Forman at Aug 19, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    On Aug 19, 12:05?am, Ben Finney wrote:
    Simon Forman <sajmik... at gmail.com> writes:
    On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Ben Finneywrote:
    We're all unified by our humanity. Bringing any god into the picture
    is surely counter to any goals of unity.
    Unity "in humanity" is, to my way of thinking, the same as Unity "in
    God".
    Then you're playing Humpty-Dumpty games with words. You know very well
    that ?God? has established meanings entirely different from ?humanity?,
    and those meanings played a part in your choice of that word.

    I maintain that you can't consistently make a declaration in favour of
    human unity and unfounded religious assertions.
    I think Unity, like None, is a built-in singleton, so to speak.
    This is white noise.
    We are one family.
    Agreed.
    <3
    I think we can peaceably leave it at that.
    Hear hear!

    (FWIW, I've always admired Humpty Dumpty's attitude to words. Have
    you ever read R.A. Wilson's "Quantum Psychology"?)

    Regards,
    ~Simon
  • Steven D'Aprano at Aug 20, 2009 at 4:13 am

    On Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:51:08 -0700, Simon Forman wrote:

    (FWIW, I've always admired Humpty Dumpty's attitude to words.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it
    means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

    When you say "admired", do you mean what the rest of us understand by
    "admired", or something completely different?

    How about "always", "attitude", "to" and "words"?

    For all I know, you're talking about baking a birthday cake for your cat,
    by which I mean shaving off all your hair, and by "hair" I mean "lunch"
    and by "shaving off" I mean "eating".

    Have you
    ever read R.A. Wilson's "Quantum Psychology"?)
    Perhaps I have, perhaps I haven't, it depends on who asks first.



    --
    Steven
  • Ben Finney at Aug 18, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    Jean-Michel Pichavant <jeanmichel at sequans.com> writes:

    Anyway the hysteria that is surrounding this thread is just amazing.
    If the calm reproach that has been the maximum response so far seems
    like ?hysteria? to you, I can only conclude you have only been using the
    internet for a few hours.

    --
    \ ?The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the |
    `\ world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports |
    _o__) the strong probability that yours is a fake.? ?Henry L. Mencken |
    Ben Finney
  • Stefan Behnel at Aug 23, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    Simon Brunning wrote:
    2009/8/11 Robert Dailey:
    On Aug 11, 3:40 pm, Bearophile wrote:
    There are gals too here.
    It's a figure of speech. And besides, why would I want programming
    advice from a woman? lol. Thanks for the help.
    Give the attitudes still prevalent in our industry (cf
    <http://tinyurl.com/c5nqju> and many more), I'm sorry to say that I
    don't think this is funny.
    Me neither.

    I used to reply with comments like "you just missed more than half of the
    world's population" to people who started their postings with "hi guys!",
    and I stopped doing that as a) it became too tiring, especially on a
    potentially-for-newbees group like c.l.py, and b) to many people it
    actually *is* a figure of speech.

    But reading statements like the above really makes me feel that it's best
    to comment even on simple things like "hi guys!".

    Stefan

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