FAQ
In article <mailman.3416.1248070578.8015.python-announce-list at python.org>,
tkouts wrote:
I'm pleased to announce the new version of Porcupine Web Application
Server, a Python based framework that provides front-end and back-end
technologies for building modern data-centric Web 2.0 applications.

[...]

QuiX, the server's integrated JavaScript toolkit, has reached the
major milestone of supporting all the popular browsers including
Opera, Safari 4 and IE8. [...]
Out of curiosity, are there any JavaScript toolkits that generate code
that degrades gracefully when JavaScript is disabled?
--
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
given by pi*z*z*a"

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  • D'Arcy J.M. Cain at Jul 20, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    On 20 Jul 2009 09:00:33 -0700 aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    Out of curiosity, are there any JavaScript toolkits that generate code
    that degrades gracefully when JavaScript is disabled?
    I understand what you want but I can't see how a toolkit can do that.
    How do you program "graceful?" It seems pretty application specific.

    --
    D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy at druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves
    http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
    +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
  • Aahz at Jul 21, 2009 at 12:10 am
    In article <mailman.3433.1248109750.8015.python-list at python.org>,
    D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
    On 20 Jul 2009 09:00:33 -0700
    aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    Out of curiosity, are there any JavaScript toolkits that generate code
    that degrades gracefully when JavaScript is disabled?
    I understand what you want but I can't see how a toolkit can do that.
    How do you program "graceful?" It seems pretty application specific.
    Presumably the JS toolkit generates both code and HTML. Actions that
    normally get executed by JS should degrade to plain HTML links and form
    submits (or possibly not display at all if it's a pure convenience).
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
    given by pi*z*z*a"
  • D'Arcy J.M. Cain at Jul 21, 2009 at 1:18 am

    On 20 Jul 2009 17:10:55 -0700 aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    I understand what you want but I can't see how a toolkit can do that.
    How do you program "graceful?" It seems pretty application specific.
    Presumably the JS toolkit generates both code and HTML. Actions that
    normally get executed by JS should degrade to plain HTML links and form
    submits (or possibly not display at all if it's a pure convenience).
    As I said, I do understand what you are after but I still think it is a
    judgement call. What defines "convenience?" How does the library know
    what is essential and what is pretty?

    --
    D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy at druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves
    http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
    +1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
  • Aahz at Jul 23, 2009 at 3:54 am
    In article <mailman.3451.1248139114.8015.python-list at python.org>,
    D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
    On 20 Jul 2009 17:10:55 -0700
    aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    I understand what you want but I can't see how a toolkit can do that.
    How do you program "graceful?" It seems pretty application specific.
    Presumably the JS toolkit generates both code and HTML. Actions that
    normally get executed by JS should degrade to plain HTML links and form
    submits (or possibly not display at all if it's a pure convenience).
    As I said, I do understand what you are after but I still think it is a
    judgement call. What defines "convenience?" How does the library know
    what is essential and what is pretty?
    Presumably a JS toolkit designed for this purpose would have an API to
    specify the handling of such issues.
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
    given by pi*z*z*a"
  • Paul Boddie at Jul 21, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    On 20 Jul, 18:00, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    Out of curiosity, are there any JavaScript toolkits that generate code
    that degrades gracefully when JavaScript is disabled?
    You mean "Web toolkits which use JavaScript", I presume. I have
    written (and use myself) a toolkit/framework called XSLForms (part of
    the XSLTools distribution) which supports in-page updates (AJAX,
    effectively) that degrade to vanilla whole-page requests if JavaScript
    is switched off:

    http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/XSLTools.html

    I've been meaning to have a few example applications running on that
    site to illustrate the point. Some people complain that by
    constraining the JavaScript functionality to merely enhance vanilla
    HTML/HTTP functionality, one is not using the full potential of the
    medium, but having used sites whose JavaScript has failed, thus
    preventing the use of those sites almost completely, I think that
    stacking AJAX-like stuff on top of normal stuff helps the majority of
    developers offer an accessible solution.

    Paul
  • Aahz at Jul 23, 2009 at 3:55 am
    In article <1c994086-8c58-488f-b3b3-6161c4b2ba05 at k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
    Paul Boddie wrote:
    On 20 Jul, 18:00, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:

    Out of curiosity, are there any JavaScript toolkits that generate code
    that degrades gracefully when JavaScript is disabled?
    You mean "Web toolkits which use JavaScript", I presume. I have
    written (and use myself) a toolkit/framework called XSLForms (part of
    the XSLTools distribution) which supports in-page updates (AJAX,
    effectively) that degrade to vanilla whole-page requests if JavaScript
    is switched off:

    http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/XSLTools.html
    Thanks! I'll take a look after OSCON.
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
    given by pi*z*z*a"
  • Paul Boddie at Jul 23, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    On 23 Jul, 05:55, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    In article <1c994086-8c58-488f-b3b3-6161c4b2b... at k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
    Paul Boddie ?wrote:
    Thanks! ?I'll take a look after OSCON.
    The JavaScript parts of the framework are a bit complicated, I'll
    admit: you have to write some nasty-looking function calls with
    awkward arguments to send AJAX-style requests to the server. I've been
    meaning to employ a more declarative "signals and slots" approach so
    that you don't have to write in the page templates where the in-page
    updates should be expected: it's really the server code that
    determines this kind of thing, and so the server code should be able
    to say where it wants the page to be updated.

    Again, I'll try and put up some examples in the relatively near future
    that will make it easier for you to see if it's your kind of thing.

    Paul
  • Lkcl at Aug 1, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    On Jul 21, 12:55 pm, Paul Boddie wrote:
    On 20 Jul, 18:00, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:


    Out of curiosity, are there anyJavaScripttoolkits that generate code
    that degrades gracefully whenJavaScriptis disabled?
    You mean "Web toolkits which useJavaScript", I presume. I have
    written (and use myself) a toolkit/framework called XSLForms (part of
    the XSLTools distribution) which supports in-page updates (AJAX,
    effectively) that degrade to vanilla whole-page requests ifJavaScript
    is switched off:
    yeahhh.... i remember doing something like that. each portion of the
    page i did as a separate AJAX load, and then there was some loader-
    infrastructure where you could, if javascript was switched off, do a
    tree-walk-reconstruction of the page.

    if anyone's interested i can provide source code.

    l.
  • Lkcl at Aug 1, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    On Jul 20, 4:00 pm, a... at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) wrote:
    Out of curiosity, are there anyJavaScripttoolkits
    or python-to-javascript compilers
    that generate code
    that degrades gracefully whenJavaScriptis disabled?
    http://advogato.org/article/981.html

    you'll need to do a little bit of work - use a state-machine-based
    framework (such as twisted, from what i can gather), or use fastcgi,
    or solve the problem of storing the state of the pyjamas application
    "in between" web requests - but yes, pyjamas-web is a port of pyjamas
    to the web server.

    so, by writing an app that conforms to the pyjamas API, you get to
    compile it to native javascript, to run in the web browser; you get to
    run it as pure python using pyjamas-desktop (python-hulahop underneath
    or pywebkitgtk) and then, if you want to finish off the experiment
    that i started, you get to run the _same_ python app server-side on
    behalf of the users.

    all quite quite mad, to be honest :)

    l.

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