FAQ
I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
apps. Are there any Python experts who I can reference them to for
porting? I have nothing on hand at the moment, but I see this as a
need without an obvious answer.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?

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  • Lawrence D'Oliveiro at Oct 19, 2008 at 12:23 am
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-list at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:
    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
  • Dotan Cohen at Oct 19, 2008 at 5:52 am

    2008/10/19 Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand>:
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-list at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:
    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
    That is quite the reason why I asked here, so that I could find
    someone who can port these things to Python.

    --
    Dotan Cohen

    http://what-is-what.com
    http://gibberish.co.il
    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?

    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 19, 2008 at 7:51 am

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-list at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:

    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
  • Dotan Cohen at Oct 19, 2008 at 8:23 am

    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
    Really, even with the cross-platform Qt bindings?

    Can you recommend a better language? (not java no please not java)

    --
    Dotan Cohen

    http://what-is-what.com
    http://gibberish.co.il
    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?

    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 19, 2008 at 8:34 am

    Dotan Cohen wrote:
    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
    Really, even with the cross-platform Qt bindings?
    I skipped Qt because of the weird license
    (I make both commercial and free-open software)
    Can you recommend a better language? (not java no please not java)
    As said VB or even much better Delphi !

    But to be honest,
    wanting the same language for commercial and open software,
    I'm very satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful
    language than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming.
    Although both languages are Object Oriented,
    for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times easier to maintain and extend
    libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE !
    And with wxPython and some tools I made, I almost have the same
    environment as Delphi.


    cheers,
    Stef
  • Dotan Cohen at Oct 19, 2008 at 9:29 am

    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:
    Dotan Cohen wrote:
    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
    Really, even with the cross-platform Qt bindings?
    I skipped Qt because of the weird license
    (I make both commercial and free-open software)
    Can you recommend a better language? (not java no please not java)
    As said VB or even much better Delphi !

    But to be honest,
    wanting the same language for commercial and open software,
    I'm very satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful
    language than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming.
    Although both languages are Object Oriented,
    for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times easier to maintain and extend
    libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE !
    And with wxPython and some tools I made, I almost have the same environment
    as Delphi.
    Really, you recommend that VB apps destined for migration be recoded
    in Delphi, as opposed to Python? I will look further into that
    language.

    --
    Dotan Cohen

    http://what-is-what.com
    http://gibberish.co.il
    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?

    ?-?-?-?-?-?-?
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 19, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Dotan Cohen wrote:
    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:
    Dotan Cohen wrote:
    2008/10/19 Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com>:

    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
    Really, even with the cross-platform Qt bindings?
    I skipped Qt because of the weird license
    (I make both commercial and free-open software)
    Can you recommend a better language? (not java no please not java)

    As said VB or even much better Delphi !

    But to be honest,
    wanting the same language for commercial and open software,
    I'm very satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful
    language than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming.
    Although both languages are Object Oriented,
    for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times easier to maintain and extend
    libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE !
    And with wxPython and some tools I made, I almost have the same environment
    as Delphi.
    Really, you recommend that VB apps destined for migration be recoded
    in Delphi, as opposed to Python?
    Certainly not.
    Delphi is windows only and as Francesco said,
    it's just Object Pascal , which is inferior to Python.

    Stef
    I will look further into that
    language.
  • BearophileHUGS at Oct 19, 2008 at 11:20 pm

    Stef Mientki:
    it's just Object Pascal , which is inferior to Python.
    They are quite different languages, you can't compare them in a simple
    way.
    Delphi is statically typed, and compiles very quickly producing
    "small" exes; "algorithmic" code can run a hundred times faster than
    Python code. There are lot of people still that think that a
    statically typed language is safer.
    Delphi is kinda old, so today there are better languages than Delphi
    (like D), but when Delphi 2-3 was out, there weren't many other
    languages with IDEs at its level, especially for programs with a nice
    GUIs plus interfaces with DBMSs. Today you can write programs with
    FreePascal, that is free. Bashing other languages doesn't make Python
    any better.

    Bye,
    bearophile
  • David Lyon at Oct 19, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    Quoting bearophileHUGS at lycos.com:

    Stef Mientki:
    it's just Object Pascal , which is inferior to Python.
    They are quite different languages, you can't compare them in a simple
    way.
    Delphi is kinda old, so today there are better languages than Delphi
    (like D), but when Delphi 2-3 was out, there weren't many other
    languages with IDEs at its level, especially for programs with a nice
    GUIs plus interfaces with DBMSs.
    I have programmed Delphi for years.. and was pretty much forced to
    move to python for different reasons.

    I would go along best with the description of delphi being "old". It
    was great in its time... and had many advancements over others. Still
    has some things that I would dearly love in python... like "skinned"
    gui applications.

    As for porting... don't.

    Just rewrite them....

    Shouldn't be so hard...

    David
  • Lawrence D'Oliveiro at Oct 21, 2008 at 1:10 am
    In message <mailman.2684.1224459150.3487.python-list at python.org>,
    david.lyon at preisshare.net wrote:
    Still has some things that I would dearly love in python... like "skinned"
    gui applications.
    That's a function of the GUI toolkit, not of the language. Python doesn't
    make you use any GUI toolkit, nor does it prevent you from using any GUI
    toolkit. It concentrates on the stuff a language should do, nothing more,
    nothing less.
  • Francesco Bochicchio at Oct 19, 2008 at 10:13 am
    Il Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:34:23 +0200, Stef Mientki ha scritto:

    ...

    I'm very
    satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful language
    than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming. Although both
    languages are Object Oriented, for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times
    easier to maintain and extend libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE ! And
    with wxPython and some tools I made, I almost have the same environment
    as Delphi.
    IMO:
    - dynamic typing
    - powerful built-in types like lists, sets and dictionaries
    - very rich function definition syntax, with multiple returns,
    yield, values passed by position and by name, automatic
    grouping of parameters in list/dictionaries
    - rich standard library, which becomes impressive if you accound for all
    the non standard modules that you find in internet. And, unlike another
    language wich shall remain unnamed (starts with J), most of python
    library modules have the same pratical approach of C standard
    library.

    Never used seriously delphi, but played a little with it: IIRC, under the
    nice IDE and GUI toolkit, the language itself is a kind of object-pascal.
    This would place it more or less at the same level of abstraction of
    Java, way below languages like python and ruby,


    Ciao
    -----
    FB
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 19, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Francesco Bochicchio wrote:
    Il Sun, 19 Oct 2008 10:34:23 +0200, Stef Mientki ha scritto:

    ...

    I'm very
    satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful language
    than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming. Although both
    languages are Object Oriented, for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times
    easier to maintain and extend libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE ! And
    with wxPython and some tools I made, I almost have the same environment
    as Delphi.
    IMO:
    - dynamic typing
    - powerful built-in types like lists, sets and dictionaries
    - very rich function definition syntax, with multiple returns,
    yield, values passed by position and by name, automatic
    grouping of parameters in list/dictionaries
    - rich standard library, which becomes impressive if you accound for all
    the non standard modules that you find in internet. And, unlike another
    language wich shall remain unnamed (starts with J), most of python
    library modules have the same pratical approach of C standard
    library.

    Never used seriously delphi, but played a little with it: IIRC, under the
    nice IDE and GUI toolkit, the language itself is a kind of object-pascal.
    This would place it more or less at the same level of abstraction of
    Java, way below languages like python and ruby,
    Thanks Francesco,
    for these features and indeed the Object Pascal language is indeed
    inferior to Python.
    Some of Python features that I find an enormous improvement over Delphi:
    - extending functions and classes with keyword arguments, without
    affecting the previous use of these declarations
    - array slicing
    - having 1 procedure that can handle every type, opposed to the Delphi
    overload method

    Some minor points of Python, compared to Delphi
    - rich standard library is less than in Delphi. It might be just as
    large, but using it is a crime (Delphi libs always work because they are
    upwards compatible)
    - GUI design
    - deploying an application

    cheers,
    Stef
  • Bruno Desthuilliers at Oct 20, 2008 at 5:07 pm
    Stef Mientki a ?crit :
    (snip)
    I'm very satisfied with Python, and must say it's much more beautiful
    language than Delphi, seen over the full width of programming.
    Although both languages are Object Oriented,
    I think you can lowercase those two last words - it's not a religion,
    you know ?-)
    for some (unknown) reason it's 10 times easier to maintain and extend
    libraries in Python than in Delphi.
    I WOULD BE MUCH OBLIGED, IF SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN THAT DIFFERENCE !
    Err... Dynamism ?-)
  • Infixum at Oct 19, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    On Oct 19, 12:51?am, Stef Mientki wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-l... at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:
    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Stef
    Some folks below mention wxPython, which (I think) works pretty
    decently.

    Another option is IronPython, the dot net based version of Python.
    Much of it runs under Mono on Linux. The dot Net Windows and controls
    look decent in both environments (Windows and Linux), and aren't that
    difficult to code.

    IronPython has a mailing list; you might want to cross-post there.
  • Bruno Desthuilliers at Oct 20, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    Stef Mientki a ?crit :
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-list at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:

    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Time to show the "don't feed the troll" sign, I guess.
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 20, 2008 at 9:53 pm

    Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
    Stef Mientki a ?crit :
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    In message <mailman.2628.1224335541.3487.python-list at python.org>, Dotan
    Cohen wrote:

    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps.
    Probably best to leave those legacy VB apps alone and develop new
    replacements in a more open, cross-platform language, like Python.
    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Time to show the "don't feed the troll" sign, I guess.
    Even without the smiley, I'm convinced of my statement.
    cheers,
    Stef
  • Ville M. Vainio at Oct 20, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com> writes:


    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Time to show the "don't feed the troll" sign, I guess.
    Even without the smiley, I'm convinced of my statement.
    cheers,
    I don't think I'm feeding the troll, but - ever took a look at PyQt?
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 20, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    Ville M. Vainio wrote:
    Stef Mientki <stef.mientki at gmail.com> writes:


    Sorry but for GUI design, Python is pre-historic ;-)
    Time to show the "don't feed the troll" sign, I guess.
    Even without the smiley, I'm convinced of my statement.
    cheers,
    I don't think I'm feeding the troll, but - ever took a look at PyQt?
    I wanted to go from Delphi to a free / open source environment,
    for both open source and commercial applications.
    So the Qt license stopped me from looking any further.

    cheers,
    stef
  • Grant Edwards at Oct 21, 2008 at 1:12 am

    On 2008-10-20, Stef Mientki wrote:

    I don't think I'm feeding the troll, but - ever took a look at
    PyQt?
    I wanted to go from Delphi to a free / open source
    environment, for both open source and commercial applications.

    So the Qt license stopped me from looking any further.
    The Qt license is still free/open-source for commercial
    applications as long as you license your app under the GPL.

    Did you mean to say for both open source and closed source
    applications?

    --
    Grant
  • Stef Mientki at Oct 21, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Grant Edwards wrote:
    On 2008-10-20, Stef Mientki wrote:

    I don't think I'm feeding the troll, but - ever took a look at
    PyQt?
    I wanted to go from Delphi to a free / open source
    environment, for both open source and commercial applications.

    So the Qt license stopped me from looking any further.
    The Qt license is still free/open-source for commercial
    applications as long as you license your app under the GPL.

    Did you mean to say for both open source and closed source
    applications?
    Yes,
    although I realize closed source is not completely possibly in Python,
    but that's no problem if the program is large/complex enough compared to
    it's market value ;-)

    cheers,
    Stef
  • Lawrence D'Oliveiro at Oct 26, 2008 at 11:40 pm
    In message <mailman.2782.1224614183.3487.python-list at python.org>, Stef
    Mientki wrote:
    ... although I realize closed source is not completely possibly in Python,
    but that's no problem if the program is large/complex enough compared to
    it's market value ;-)
    Software has no market value. Business models that try to assign it one are
    doomed to fight an uphill battle against market forces.
  • Ben Finney at Oct 27, 2008 at 1:31 am

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand> writes:

    Software has no market value. Business models that try to assign it
    one are doomed to fight an uphill battle against market forces.
    +1 QOTW.

    --
    \ ?Yesterday I told a chicken to cross the road. It said, ?What |
    `\ for??? ?Steven Wright |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
  • Steven D'Aprano at Oct 27, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 12:31:06 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo at geek-central.gen.new_zealand> writes:
    Software has no market value. Business models that try to assign it one
    are doomed to fight an uphill battle against market forces.
    +1 QOTW.
    -1

    That quote confuses the *cost* of duplicating software (which is close
    enough to zero) with the *value* put on the software by the market (the
    users). We can see that, for example, Ben Finney himself puts quite a lot
    of value on software such as emacs. Just recently Ben wrote (paraphrased)
    that he valued emacs because although he wasn't a Lisp programmer, other
    programmers had already produced many fine emacs tools that let him be a
    more productive developer. Now Ben is agreeing with the statement that he
    doesn't value software, that he considers emacs and other such tools mere
    commodities and is indifferent to which he uses, or even whether he uses
    any at all. That's clearly untrue, and I can only imagine it is because
    Ben doesn't understand what it means for a product, service or thing to
    have no market value. No value is not the same as priceless, and I
    imagine Ben would agree that freedom to modify the source code of emacs
    is virtually priceless.

    Should distribution costs rise (say, because the Australian government's
    compulsory web censorship plan "accidentally" block all free software --
    it must be warez if it's free, right?) then would it really be
    inconceivable that people in Australia who valued emacs over (say)
    Microsoft Notepad would be willing to pay for reliable, uncensored copies
    of the software?

    Plenty of people pay for free software. Some of them pay with money, some
    of them pay with development effort, some of them with both. Unless my
    memory is playing tricks on me, I believe that Ben himself has purchased
    Ubuntu CDs with real money; and if he hasn't, I can assure you that his
    employer has.

    I can only imagine that what Lawrence was trying to say was something on
    the lines of this: open source software reduces the ability of vendors to
    extract monopoly rents from software by turning each software application
    itself into a commodity. It's not just that there are a thousand
    different text editors from a thousand suppliers that Ben could use, but
    that there are a thousand suppliers entitled to distribute emacs itself,
    and competition between those suppliers ensure that the cost of emacs
    approaches the marginal cost of duplication and distribution, which is
    essentially zero.

    (The corollary of this is that to avoid such commoditization, software
    vendors need the government to enforce an artificial monopoly on each
    product. That's not necessarily a bad thing, although it often is.)

    It's not as snappy as saying that Ben and others like him don't value
    software, but it's more accurate.



    --
    Steven
  • Ed Leafe at Oct 24, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    On Oct 18, 2008, at 8:12 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

    I often see mention of SMBs that either want to upgrade their Windows
    installations, or move to Linux, but cannot because of inhouse VB
    apps. Are there any Python experts who I can reference them to for
    porting? I have nothing on hand at the moment, but I see this as a
    need without an obvious answer.
    Sorry for the delay in responding, but someone just pointed out this
    post to me.

    You might want to take a look at Dabo, which is an integrated desktop
    application framework for Python (disclosure: I'm one of the authors).
    It allows you to visually create UIs that run unmodified on Windows,
    Linux and OS X.

    You can learn about it at http://dabodev.com


    -- Ed Leafe

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