FAQ
I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

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  • Ben Finney at Aug 12, 2003 at 5:37 am

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, Joe Cheng wrote:
    many [...] have come to the conclusion that Java and Python are highly
    complimentary languages.
    I think you mean "complementary"; I've never had a programming language
    compliment me on anything, though it'd make a nice change from all those
    error messages :-)
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    Or do you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what
    is it?
    My professional programming these days is mostly sysadmin tool writing.
    Where I used to use 70% shell with 30% perl, these days I do 80% python
    with 20% shell. That probably reflects the ad-hoc, small-scope nature
    of the tools I write though.

    It also reflects the fact that I intend these tools to be maintainable
    by others who don't necessarily know the languages I use inside out. I
    would shudder to show a complex shell or perl script to a cow-orker, but
    my Python scripts are easily explainable -- one cow-orker has
    volunteered the comment that "it looks like pseudocode" :-)
    And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all
    practical intents and purposes, your only programming language?
    I do have several larger-scale programming projects in the back wings,
    and those will be written entirely in Python. (Waiting has gained me
    the incremental nice features of Python 2.3 :-)

    --
    \ "I know when I'm going to die, because my birth certificate has |
    `\ an expiration date." -- Steven Wright |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney <http://bignose.squidly.org/>
  • John Machin at Aug 12, 2003 at 7:49 pm
    Ben Finney <bignose-hates-spam at and-benfinney-does-too.id.au> wrote in message news:<slrnbjh0dc.rrk.bignose-hates-spam at iris.polar.local>...
    It also reflects the fact that I intend these tools to be maintainable
    by others who don't necessarily know the languages I use inside out. I
    would shudder to show a complex shell or perl script to a cow-orker, but
    my Python scripts are easily explainable -- one cow-orker has
    volunteered the comment that "it looks like pseudocode" :-)
    How does one "ork" and what is the effect on the cow? What is the
    RSPCA's attitude to this?
  • Rich at Aug 12, 2003 at 10:19 pm
    "John Machin" <sjmachin at lexicon.net> wrote in message
    news:c76ff6fc.0308121149.67b320fa at posting.google.com...
    How does one "ork" and what is the effect on the cow? What is the
    RSPCA's attitude to this?
    There is a page on orking here: http://www.monkeon.co.uk/orking/

    The RSPCA is fine with it....

    see ya,
    Rich.
    (formerly of JMI in Carlton, way back when Colonial had it. :-)
  • Bob Gailer at Aug 13, 2003 at 4:06 pm

    At 12:49 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, John Machin wrote:
    How does one "ork"
    Quite well, thank you.
    and what is the effect on the cow? '
    Most of the cows around whom I've orked have given more and richer milk.
    What is the RSPCA's attitude to this?
    Probably better than the ASCPA's.

    Also consider:

    http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/5662/Bands/ork.html
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/1835/sr.html
    http://www.openravenscar.org/
    http://www.rewth.com/amtgard/

    Tracing dictionary references ork -> orc -> grampus "Called also cowfish."
    Now the circle is complete.

    Bob Gailer
    bgailer at alum.rpi.edu
    303 442 2625
    -------------- next part --------------

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    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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  • Markus Jais at Aug 12, 2003 at 6:37 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:

    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize
    there are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or
    do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
    And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
    intents and purposes, your only programming language?
    at work I use mainly java and C.

    at home when I programm for myself I normally use Python or Ruby.
    it depends on the libraries available. I like both and use both.

    I rarely use C or Java at home because with Python or Ruby I am much faster
    in developing a solution. and I never use C++ at home.

    and sometimes I play with PHP and Perl. just for fun.

    Markus
  • Doug Tolton at Aug 12, 2003 at 7:22 am

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" wrote:
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I know Java, C, C#, C++, Visual Basic, Python, Asp and now I'm getting
    into Lisp and Scheme. I'm familiar with quite a few others, but these
    are the ones I'm most comfortable with.

    I write 90% of my code in python, maybe even 95%. I used to write
    everything in C#, but I found that most of the time I was writing a
    form that had buttons to push and a rich text box for output (at least
    at my current position).

    When we have to deploy an app with an ide we'll use either VB or C#,
    and put the guts in python com classes which are called from the ide.
    Python has great COM integration (much better than either C# or VB
    incidentally), so it makes it really easy.

    I do see a day when all my programming could be done in python
    (although more likely it will all be done in Lisp). There are a few
    things that need I need to learn how to do, but ultimately I believe
    all the major pieces are in place.

    - I need to learn wxPython or one of the variants on building good
    cross platform guis better.
    - I need to learn how to deploy apps to end users better
    - I need to learn one of the web based python systems.

    You'll note, these are all centered around technologies I need to
    learn better, not techonlogies that need to be done still.

    As for an IDE, I already have one, it's call Emacs.
    Debugger, I just use pdb (althouh I wish it had, or I knew how to do
    Edit and Continue)
  • Erik Max Francis at Aug 12, 2003 at 7:34 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is
    it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
    intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I get paid to write C++ or C, use Python for recreational projects, and
    use shell, Python, or (rarely) Perl for administration tasks. For
    recreation and exploration I play around with a variety of other
    languages, including Io, APL/J, Logo, Prolog, Scheme, and so on.

    --
    Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
    __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
    / \ I will always remember / This moment
    \__/ Sade
  • Nikola Plejic at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:38 am
    In news:3F389887.F7AB871E at alcyone.com,
    Erik Max Francis wrote:
    Joe Cheng wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is
    it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
    intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I get paid to write C++ or C, use Python for recreational projects,
    and use shell, Python, or (rarely) Perl for administration tasks. For
    recreation and exploration I play around with a variety of other
    languages, including Io, APL/J, Logo, Prolog, Scheme, and so on.
    I use Python for most of my projects, but for web I use PHP. I also have some
    knowledge of C++ (but very limited), and I am planning on expanding that
    knowledge soon. I started learning C++ before Python, but when I saw Python, I
    paused learning C++ and turned to Python.

    Python can suit most of the programming needs today, but not all. It has
    limitations, just as any other programming language and I think there will
    always be cases where using some other programming language will be more
    efficient or more suitable for some projects.

    As for me, personally, Python suits my needs even now, as I am not some
    advanced programmer, but I suppose I will see some limitations and downsides as
    I progress.

    I also play around with Visual Basic with my friend a bit when we're at school,
    but he knows VB way better than I do.

    --

    Greets,
    Nikola
    ( http://zweistein.cjb.net )
  • Fredrik Lundh at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:00 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) yes.
    And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
    intents and purposes, your only programming language?
    has been, since 1995.

    </F>
  • Max M at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:32 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?

    I used to learn a new language a year. But i'm afraid that python has
    made me lazy. It sort of killed the natural itch to learn new languages
    by removing the little anoyances I used to have when programming.

    So now I start up my editor in Python mode like a mindless zombie. It
    has even gotten to the point that I use it for calculations instead of a
    spreadsheet and pocket calculator.

    But to keep up to date language wise I will look into other languages
    again someday soon. I swear. hmm!



    regards Max M
  • Van Gale at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:39 am
    From my point of view (writing system applications, servers, web apps)
    Python and Java fill the same space, which is one reason I don't know
    much Java.

    I used to use perl + shell for sysadmin type stuff, but now use Python
    exclusively for that (well... maybe some shell still for really really
    short scripts).

    So, the only other language I really use is C (and not just for writing
    extensions).

    There are some areas where I would consider other languages, For
    example I would consider using Delphi for Windows GUI apps. For Linux
    GUI apps I might consider Objective C just for something different, but
    most likely would choose Python and either Qt or GTK bindings.
  • Neil Hodgson at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:52 am

    Joe Cheng:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything?
    At work I mostly use Python but with some SQL and other bits and pieces
    including Java. At home the main language is C++ as libraries that are
    destined to be used from many languages are easiest accessed through a C
    interface and performance is important.

    Neil
  • Carl Banks at Aug 12, 2003 at 9:09 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?

    For me, it's almost 100% Python + C extensions. Even the C extensions
    are getting dubious: for my current project, I took the time to write
    a C code generator in Python.

    I use a smattering of Bourne Shell and Mathematica for their intended
    purposes. I often used Fortran in research work and a few other
    things. I use Java when I want to make an applet (rarely).

    Any other language I use is either for fun, or to keep my programming
    skills sharp.


    --
    CARL BANKS
    "You don't run Microsoft Windows. Microsoft Windows runs you."
  • Peter Hansen at Aug 12, 2003 at 11:29 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
    We do web, systems/application, and embedded programming (that's the kind of
    thing where you have a little 16-bit micro with 1K of RAM to play with, nothing
    to do with "embedding and extending" ala Python). The web work is all
    Python (back end) plus a tiny bit of Javascript. The systems/app work is
    all Python. The embedded stuff is part Python, on the larger embedded
    system which can handle it, and part C, on the tiny micros where Python
    has no hope, plus a few hundred lines of Assembly code.

    On a day-to-day basis, over 95% of what we do is Python.
    And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all
    practical intents and purposes, your only programming language?
    No, unless we abandon all embedded programming. But if you exclude
    that special area, where basically little but C has a foothold, and
    you exclude the client-side web stuff where Javascript is the only
    serious option, then we are already using Python as our *only* language,
    and I have no intention of letting that change any time soon. There
    is a *huge* benefit, often much underestimated, in maintaining only
    a small set of technologies, including the programming languages a
    company/individual actually uses (as opposed to those it knows of).

    -Peter
  • Jimmy Retzlaff at Aug 12, 2003 at 11:52 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I'm almost exclusively using Python and SQL these days. Before
    discovering Python I was mainly using C++ and SQL with a little Java and
    a little VBScript (in ASP). Within a few months all new code was in
    Python/SQL and the other languages were only used for maintenance. After
    a couple years of that, we found that it was often easier to translate
    subsystems into Python than to add features in the other languages.

    That was all at my previous job. In my current position we used to
    occasionally write some C (Python C API) or C++ (Boost) extensions.
    Since installing psyco and ctypes I don't think we've written a single
    line of C/C++ and we've even migrated some of those extensions to
    Python. Our core product is a Python application. You can see a few
    screenshots at http://www.averdevelopment.com. It contained about 30K
    lines of Python at last count.

    Jimmy
  • C42 at Aug 12, 2003 at 2:22 pm
    After college I started using VB & VBA for most of my bigger projects
    and Winbatch for my system admin stuff. However, as my current company
    has started to move more of its servers to Linux, I'm programming almost
    exclusively in Python.

    In the past I've used Komodo and found it to be very nice tool, but I'm
    also keeping an eye on Boa Constructor with its advances as well.



    In article <h9%Za.8225$M6.622467 at newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
    code at joecheng.com says...
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?

  • Grant Edwards at Aug 12, 2003 at 2:38 pm

    In article <h9%Za.8225$M6.622467 at newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Joe Cheng wrote:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use
    Python for everything?
    No. I still use C for Linux device drivers, and embedded code
    (as well as some assemlby). I use bash and awk sometimes. I
    also use a bit of JavaScript for web pages.
    (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so,
    what is it? And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can
    be, for all practical intents and purposes, your only
    programming language?
    Never. Anybody who thinks there's only one programming
    language for all tasks is seriously deluded.

    --
    Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! I'm UNEMPLOYED!
    at
    visi.com
  • Michele Simionato at Aug 12, 2003 at 5:12 pm
    grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards) wrote in message news:<3f38fbf3$0$158$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>...
    Anybody who thinks there's only one programming
    language for all tasks is seriously deluded.
    Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL tasks.
    It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an average
    programmer needs. I personally know various languages, but at the
    end I only use Python since it fullfills all my needs and it is
    faster to develop in it that in any other language.

    Michele
  • Grant Edwards at Aug 12, 2003 at 6:12 pm

    In article <2259b0e2.0308120912.53b28d6f at posting.google.com>, Michele Simionato wrote:

    Anybody who thinks there's only one programming language for
    all tasks is seriously deluded.
    Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL
    tasks.
    Good point. I forget that others jobs may be more narrowly
    defined than mine. Not everybody has to range from embedded
    assembly language, to GUI apps, to Linux drivers, to CGI, to
    ASP.
    It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an average
    programmer needs. I personally know various languages, but at
    the end I only use Python since it fullfills all my needs and
    it is faster to develop in it that in any other language.
    --
    Grant Edwards grante Yow! What a
    at COINCIDENCE! I'm an
    visi.com authorized "SNOOTS OF THE
    STARS" dealer!!
  • Michael Hudson at Aug 14, 2003 at 12:51 pm

    mis6 at pitt.edu (Michele Simionato) writes:

    grante at visi.com (Grant Edwards) wrote in message news:<3f38fbf3$0$158$a1866201 at newsreader.visi.com>...
    Anybody who thinks there's only one programming
    language for all tasks is seriously deluded.
    Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL
    tasks. It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an
    average programmer needs.
    I quite like the strategy of recommending Python for almost
    everything, and Common Lisp for what's left.

    Hmm, guess this doesn't cover the embedded niche...

    Cheers,
    mwh

    --
    Also, remember to put the galaxy back when you've finished, or an
    angry mob of astronomers will come round and kneecap you with a
    small telescope for littering.
    -- Simon Tatham, ucam.chat, from Owen Dunn's review of the year
  • Harry George at Aug 12, 2003 at 3:24 pm

    "Joe Cheng" <code at joecheng.com> writes:

    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    In the past I've written C, C++, Java, Lisp, Modula-2, Modula-3,
    Pascal, Perl, and Prolog for pay. I've dabbled in a dozen others.
    All of these are drifting away as Python takes center stage at home
    and at work. I personally haven't written in anything else for over a
    year. I also used it through a recent MSCS degree. Of course, I'm
    dependent on extensions written in C, C++, and Fortran, plus CORBA,
    COM, etc. communication protocols.

    What uses?

    Some sysadmin scripts, lots of "glueware" reader/writer adaptors and
    automation for COTS apps, lots of code which needs to be portable
    across *NIX and Win** platforms. Usually need Numeric and XML, some
    SQL, CGI wrappers, etc.

    At home I recently wrote a morse code tutor by reimplementing
    algorithms (e.g., bit-twiddling to generate pcm) from an OSS package.
    Once it worked at all, I changed the algorithm to cache preprocessed
    sin approximations (profiling showed I needed the speedup). Then I
    enhanced to the functionality of commercial packages. Then added
    features (autogenerated QSO's) which I don't think are available
    anywhere else. All in a weekend.

    How did I get there?

    I really liked Modula-3's static and dynamic typing system. Other
    static typing systems I've tried pale by comparison. With Python and
    good test suites, I don't seem to miss the static typing, and it is
    vastly easier to generate working code. I also liked Modula-3's
    syntax and namespace system. Python's syntax is cleaner and the
    namespaces are simpler-yet-adequately-powerful. (Not too surprising,
    given Python's origins)

    I used to be a champion for and an instructor for Perl. I still do
    code reviews on Perl scripts written by others (shudder). I do not
    agree sysadmins will stay with Perl over Python. There is a learning
    curve, but the needed functionality is there. We are finding in
    complex mixed platform environments, it is easier to install (and
    upgrade) Python than Perl. Python is readable by people other than
    the original author (important in an era of layoffs and doubling up).
    Python is readable by the original author even after being away for
    months at a time.

    We found we could replace c. 100 LOC of Prolog with a few lines of
    python when we needed regex's and other string manipulation. We are
    finding we can do Lisp-style programming in Python (lazy evaluation,
    mixins, etc.). We find that Python is "a better VB than VB" for
    scripting COTS apps via COM. We found python took 1/3 fewer LOC (and
    was a lot cleaner) than Java for a geometry task (lots of matrixes and
    netlist traversals).

    I've yet to look seriously at C#. My primariy concern is "does it
    support open source cross-platform development and implementation"?
    As long as it fails that test (e.g., until Mono is fully approved by
    Microsoft), I'll stick with a known winner.

    --
    harry.g.george at boeing.com
    6-6M31 Knowledge Management
    Phone: (425) 342-5601
  • Jarek Zgoda at Aug 12, 2003 at 6:45 pm

    Joe Cheng <code at joecheng.com> pisze:

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I learn new programming language each year. During last 10 years I
    learned 10 languages -- only in few of them I wrote more than exercises,
    these are Python, RPG and REXX, sorted descending. Python is most
    amusing and fun part of my work, I use it whenever it is possible and
    has any sign of advantage over any other languages but I will never try
    to use Python to write interactive application on OS/400. There is
    RPG/400 for this and other platforms have other tasks that are better
    accomplished in other ways than Python.

    But I'll continue to love Python until somebody invents something more
    amazing. Which looks impossible now, but remember, 10 years ago mr Gates
    said, that 640KB seems to be enough for everybody. ;)

    --
    Jarek Zgoda
    Registered Linux User #-1
    http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zgoda at chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/
  • BadJake at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:13 pm
    Python comes a close second to C++. I have never in my life and never will
    touch VB nor ASP
    All my system maintenance tools on bothe Windows and Linux are written in
    Python.
    Python is at the heart on Rekall, our programmable database client. Also I
    use Python to control the building, and packaging of the many variant of
    Rekall. In my work environment Python is everywhere with the exception of
    our web site. This because I cann't convince my ISP to include Python
    instead of or along with PHP. It is a great pity almost all ISPs world wide
    only offer the MySQL/PHP/Perl combination. I dislike both Perl and MySQL
    intensely and I tolerate PHP. I would much rather be able to make use of
    Python and PostreSQL for providing dynamic data content for my web site.
    BTW, if anybody knows of a cheap hosting service which offers Python and
    PostgreSQL, please let me know.
    What ever happened to customer choice?

    Regards
    John
  • Aahz at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:21 pm
    In article <3f3949f1$0$228$fa0fcedb at lovejoy.zen.co.uk>,
    BadJake wrote:
    BTW, if anybody knows of a cheap hosting service which offers Python and
    PostgreSQL, please let me know.
    http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PythonHosting
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
  • Sismex01 at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:23 pm

    From: BadJake [mailto:john at rygannon.com]
    Sent: Martes, 12 de Agosto de 2003 03:14 p.m.

    [...snip...]
    What ever happened to customer choice?

    Regards
    John
    Maybe they have Henry Ford's "Customer Choice" philosophy:
    "Any color you want, as long as it's black".

    -gustavo


    Advertencia:La informacion contenida en este mensaje es confidencial y
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  • Larry at Aug 12, 2003 at 8:24 pm
    "Joe Cheng" <code at joecheng.com> wrote in message news:<h9%Za.8225$M6.622467 at newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
    I'm curious about something...
    At work I'm now at about 90% Python and the rest a mix of Visual Basic
    and Java. Almost anything new gets done in Python, with Java for
    applets (blah) and the VB mainly just maintenance on existing VB crap.

    At home I'm currently about 40% Unreal Tournament 2003 and 60% Civ
    III.
  • Jarek Zgoda at Aug 12, 2003 at 9:12 pm

    Larry <wrbt at email.com> pisze:

    At home I'm currently about 40% Unreal Tournament 2003 and 60% Civ
    III.
    I'm 100% Steel Panthers World At War 7.1 and I clearly see, that
    pythonic tactics makes me winner in most of cases. ;)

    Thanks God, I have wife that allows me run "unknown binaries" on her W2K
    box. And she has 80GB HDD, just enough for all our collected music.

    --
    Jarek Zgoda
    Registered Linux User #-1
    http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zgoda at chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/
  • Alan Gauld at Aug 12, 2003 at 10:22 pm

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything?
    I'm not sure I'm "hard core" but I use Python most days.
    However most projects I work on use many programming
    languages - I think the record was 12 languages on 1 project.
    An average is probably around 5.

    I use Python mainly for prototyping and proof of concept work
    during design, the results get turned into C++, Java, COBOL
    or assembler depending on the project.

    In theory we could use Python for an embedded scripting language
    but Tcl and VBScript have already grabbed that slot in our
    corporate armoury...
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    Nope, there will always be places where I want to use Lisp or
    Prolog. Even awk is better for some things. And when the code
    really gets down n' dirty nothing beats raw C and assembler...

    Alan G.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
  • Hans Nowak at Aug 13, 2003 at 3:41 am

    Joe Cheng wrote:
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
    Currently I use Python for 95% of work and 100% of personal projects. The
    other 5% is taken by Delphi (for development of user-friendly GUI apps on Windows).
    And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    I hope so...
  • David Mertz at Aug 13, 2003 at 6:48 am

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    I think the co-author of (parts of) my Gnosis Utilities package, Frank
    McIngvale won't mind if I share this recent brief exchange with y'all.
    On my OS/2 machine, the case of some files in the distribution were
    getting messed up, so I wrote a little script to fix things up before
    packaging:

    DM> OK... but it's REXX. On the plus side, this will make sure all
    DM> the files are right, not just those I remember to check.

    FM> You'll have to excuse me for cracking up that the author
    FM> of Text Processing in Python just sent me a REXX script!! :-)
    FM> Hm, lemme crack open my book and see if I can figure out
    FM> how to rewrite it in this newfangled braceless python thang ;-)

    FWIW. (still, REXX is quite braceless).

    Yours, David...

    X-Shameless-Plug: Buy Text Processing in Python: http://tinyurl.com/jskh
    --
    mertz@ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY:_/_/_/_/ v i
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  • Doug Tolton at Aug 13, 2003 at 7:06 am

    On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:48:16 -0400, mertz at gnosis.cx (David Mertz) wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    I think the co-author of (parts of) my Gnosis Utilities package, Frank
    McIngvale won't mind if I share this recent brief exchange with y'all.
    On my OS/2 machine, the case of some files in the distribution were
    getting messed up, so I wrote a little script to fix things up before
    packaging:

    DM> OK... but it's REXX. On the plus side, this will make sure all
    DM> the files are right, not just those I remember to check.

    FM> You'll have to excuse me for cracking up that the author
    FM> of Text Processing in Python just sent me a REXX script!! :-)
    FM> Hm, lemme crack open my book and see if I can figure out
    FM> how to rewrite it in this newfangled braceless python thang ;-)

    FWIW. (still, REXX is quite braceless).

    Yours, David...

    X-Shameless-Plug: Buy Text Processing in Python: http://tinyurl.com/jskh

    David, I have your book on my Desk now, and I've worked though some of
    it. Good stuff so far. Kudos. I posted a reply to you on slashdot
    about this book too, but I don't think you saw it.

    Doug Tolton
  • Tim Rowe at Aug 13, 2003 at 1:37 pm

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    No. I'm a firm believer in using the right language for the task, and
    I don't believe it to b possible for a single language to be the best
    for every application.
    Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
    C++ close to hand, Eiffel and Ada available.
    And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    Absolutely not. I don't believe any language could be, because every
    task needs different compromises.
  • Donn Cave at Aug 13, 2003 at 5:13 pm
    In article <njfkjvckkbsq9mb34f5ko9fsasraoiidoh at 4ax.com>,
    Tim Rowe wrote:
    [ ... re Python as the only language you need ]
    Absolutely not. I don't believe any language could be, because every
    task needs different compromises.
    Sure, within the domain of computer programming problems,
    no single language can adequately serve for everything.
    But that's a much broader range than most of us encompass,
    and I think it's really rather reasonable in principle for
    a single language to satisfy a single programmer's needs.
    Where "satisfy" is a function of how well the language works
    for his or her normal range of problems versus how easily
    another possibly better language can be brought on board.
    Excuse me for such an obvious observation, but it seems sort
    of evasive to turn the question into a matter of principle.

    For my purposes, there seem to be three programming language
    roles: a low level system interface language (C, for UNIX),
    an application language, and a high level system interface
    language (shell, for UNIX.) In practice, the application
    language is sometimes Python, more commonly C, and in my
    dreams it could be Haskell.

    Donn Cave, donn at u.washington.edu
  • Tim Rowe at Aug 13, 2003 at 10:27 pm

    On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:13:53 -0700, Donn Cave wrote:
    Sure, within the domain of computer programming problems,
    no single language can adequately serve for everything.
    But that's a much broader range than most of us encompass,
    Most, maybe, but as, loosely, a computer scinece consutant, I probably
    get a broader range than most! I have to know at least the basic
    characteristics of any language I may encounter, even if I don't have
    to code it, and my experience is that the best way to do it is to code
    it -- whatever it is -- at least a bit.
    and I think it's really rather reasonable in principle for
    a single language to satisfy a single programmer's needs.
    I'd suggest that that depends on the level of the programmer.
    Certainly I'd say get to know one really well. But then I reckon
    getting another language under the belt -- the /right/ another
    language that complements the first -- offers massive advantages over
    the programmer with only one.
    For my purposes, there seem to be three programming language
    roles: a low level system interface language (C, for UNIX),
    an application language, and a high level system interface
    language (shell, for UNIX.) In practice, the application
    language is sometimes Python, more commonly C, and in my
    dreams it could be Haskell.
    If I want to get something up and running quickly then I go straight
    to Python. If thousands of lives depend on the code working right I
    would not be allowed to use Python, and, IMHO, quite rightly too. It
    just doesn't have what it needs for proving correctness, and adding
    those things would scupper the getting things up and running quickly.
  • Nick Vargish at Aug 14, 2003 at 2:04 pm

    Tim Rowe <tim at remove_if_not_spam.digitig.co.uk> writes:

    If I want to get something up and running quickly then I go straight
    to Python. If thousands of lives depend on the code working right I
    would not be allowed to use Python, and, IMHO, quite rightly too. It
    just doesn't have what it needs for proving correctness, and adding
    those things would scupper the getting things up and running
    quickly.
    So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
    "thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
    this up and running quickly"?

    Whenever someone implies that compile-time type checking provides some
    "proof of correctness", I think about (void *) and am not very
    convinced.

    Nick

    --
    # sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python
    print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')
  • Van Gale at Aug 14, 2003 at 2:17 pm

    Nick Vargish wrote:
    So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
    "thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
    this up and running quickly"?
    I would hope that there would be pressure for "up and quickly" when
    thousands of lives are at stake :) So, the only choice in that case is
    doing it properly.

    I think that Ada is one of the few languages capable of being used on
    "lives depend on it" systems. It's not anything special about the
    language in particular, but rather the immense amount of man-hours and
    time spent in writing checking and analysis tools. That includes tools
    that can verify an Ada program will meet real-time requirements. This
    kind of tool is really sophisticated (obviously) and would probably be
    impossible to code for anything but a strong static typed language.
  • Brandon Michael Moore at Aug 14, 2003 at 6:27 pm

    On 14 Aug 2003, Nick Vargish wrote:

    Tim Rowe <tim at remove_if_not_spam.digitig.co.uk> writes:
    If I want to get something up and running quickly then I go straight
    to Python. If thousands of lives depend on the code working right I
    would not be allowed to use Python, and, IMHO, quite rightly too. It
    just doesn't have what it needs for proving correctness, and adding
    those things would scupper the getting things up and running
    quickly.
    So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
    "thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
    this up and running quickly"?

    Whenever someone implies that compile-time type checking provides some
    "proof of correctness", I think about (void *) and am not very
    convinced.

    Nick
    Sure, type checking with a sorry excuse for a type system like C provides
    doesn't buy you that much. Take a look at Haskell (espcially the GHC type
    system extensions). In the functional programming community people say "if
    it type checks it usually works", and Haskell's type system is stronger
    than most. It's probably worth pointing out that strong typing doesn't
    mean you need to fill your program with types like C. Most of the types in
    a Haskell program are inferred. You can say things like "takes any object
    that can be converted to a string". If you are sufficiently perverse you
    can even given an append operation a type that reflects the length of the
    lists. Referential transparency makes it much easier to prove the
    correctness of functions in isolation, which isn't really the type system,
    but does help write correct code.

    For rapid development lazy evaluation and the IO system (monads) make it
    really easy to define and combine abstractions. You can take "once and
    only once" a lot farther than in most languages. There are a few
    weaknesses though. Performance isn't as good as you might expect from a
    compiled language (you can always write C though). Library support is a
    bit weak for things like data base interfaces and GUIs. There are
    interesting GUI and database libraries, but nothing really mature.

    Actually, I think python with a litte bit of type checking would be safer
    than C++ or Java. C++ has explict memory management, which can be a pain
    to debug, and Java has no templates so any generic functions lead to code
    littered with unsafe downcasts. Python does garbage collection, and a
    program checker can use any type system it wants. Probably 99% of python
    code could be given types like "takes objects with these methods", etc.
    The smartest tool I know of is PyChecker which doesn't sound like it does
    more type checking that counting arguments. I just heard about it today
    though, so I'm probably wrong.

    Brandon
  • Tim Ottinger at Aug 17, 2003 at 2:54 am

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
    Oh, how I wish.

    Although I do like my spattering of SQL too.
    And I don't hate C and C++ (which account for most of my 24yrs of
    programming). At least not as much as I hate Java.

    I probably could use python for just about everything I do these days.

    A different Tim
  • Torsten Marek at Aug 13, 2003 at 1:45 pm

    Joe Cheng schrieb:
    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
    are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    Execpt one C++ library I have wrapped for use with Python, I tend to
    utilize Python for everything, GUI programming, general scripting,
    database and file management etc. Answering your question, I think
    Python + C is practical (at least for me) in all matters.


    greets

    Torsten
  • AdSR at Aug 13, 2003 at 5:10 pm
    "Joe Cheng" <code at joecheng.com> wrote...
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    At home, I use Python almost exclusively. This includes Jython from
    time to time.

    At work, I use whatever is needed, usually Java or C++. I haven't used
    Python "officially", but it was very helpful when I had to rewrite a
    couple of database tables into a different format/design. I also use
    it to try out concepts.

    Interactive mode/IDLE is a good replacement for a calculator too, as
    advertised.

    And man, does Python make me lazy :) It really makes you appreciate
    Guido & Co.'s work when you get back to some other language and have
    to do some "basic" thing like list or dictionary manipulation.

    Would I want Python to be my only language? Not really - it would be
    monotonous. That's why I read at least a tutorial for a new language
    from time to time.

    Slightly off-topic, I went to a zoo last Saturday and saw there a huge
    python that had just had its lunch. A truly terrifying sight.

    AdSR
  • Steve Lamb at Aug 13, 2003 at 6:38 pm

    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, Joe Cheng wrote:
    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
    you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
    finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
    and purposes, your only programming language?
    Ever since I learned Python 3-4 years back I have been making an
    effort to program more and more in Python. I attempted to get my work
    to switch over to no avail. Presently I write 95% in Python, 5% in
    shell and that 5% in shell is limited to the command-line. If the tast
    is too complex for me to pipe together a few shell utils I fire up vim
    and into Python I go.

    Recently I've expanded into coding in wxPython thanks to the
    wonderful efforts of the Boa-Constructor team. First time I've
    seriously delved into GUI work and it is, as with other Python projects,
    extremely fun to work on.

    --
    Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
    PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
    -- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
    -------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
  • Smarter_than_you at Aug 14, 2003 at 2:53 am
    Been programming for 20 years, in (roughly this order):

    BASIC
    Assembly (various, starting with 6502)
    Forth
    C
    (a little) Lisp
    C++
    Java
    and lately, Python

    I can say without a doubt, Py is so much closer to how my brain works,
    and I am _so_ much more productive (factor of 2.5 - 3 over C/C++),
    that I will be using it by default for everything that it can do, and
    will need to be torn away from it kicking and screaming when
    absolutely necessary (high-performance stuff mostly).

    Recently at a job interview my possible boss said he liked C#, and
    didn't know much about Python. That comment alone made me much less
    interested in the job.
  • Ed Young at Aug 14, 2003 at 4:13 am
    I use python at home 95%. I use C and perl at the office.
    I'm working on the folks at the office to adopt Python.

    C is great when you have to manipulate lots of bytes (find
    all chars above dec(127) in a 690 meg file). It's also
    good for cross platform utilities (MVS, UNIX, WinXX).

    Perl is great for one liners, as a part of a pipeline (e.g.
    analyzing log files). It's also great for vi(ex) editing
    with vim when it runs out of steam.

    I prefer Python for all else (GUI, larger scope utilities,
    anything complex).

    I've done a *lot* of programming over the past 32 years,
    in many languages. Python really is a better idea.

    YMMV
    On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 +0000, Joe Cheng wrote:

    I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
    background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
    Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
    filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize
    there are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

    I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
    everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or
    do you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
    And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
    intents and purposes, your only programming language?
  • Sismex01 at Aug 14, 2003 at 2:40 pm
    [Nick Vargish]
    So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
    "thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
    this up and running quickly"?
    [Van Gale]
    I think that Ada is one of the few languages capable of being used on
    "lives depend on it" systems. It's not anything special about the
    language in particular, but rather the immense amount of
    man-hours and time spent in writing checking and analysis tools.
    That includes tools that can verify an Ada program will meet real-time
    requirements. This kind of tool is really sophisticated (obviously)
    and would probably be impossible to code for anything but a strong
    static typed language.
    Coincidently, there's a thread like this on comp.lang.forth, and
    precisely Ada was brought out as an example of a created-for-correctness
    language; but one of the problems with this is brittleness.

    As an example, someone mentioned the Arianne accident, a few years
    back, which was "caused" by a Zero-division error caught by the
    code, which raised some kind of error condition (I don't do Ada).

    BUT, it seems that the segment of code being checked wasn't even
    going to be executed (something about horizontan acceleration),
    and since the rocket was already in the air, that code shouldn't
    have mattered; "if it was C, then the operation would have silently
    failed, and the rocket would have kept flying".

    It's not really a criticism against Ada, but bad systems design/
    implementation; for those cases where lives are at stake, or rocket
    sciences ;-) , you need code coverage tools, extensive unit tests,
    etc... so that absolutely NO untested code lines get into the system.

    anyhow...

    -gustavo


    Advertencia:La informacion contenida en este mensaje es confidencial y
    restringida, por lo tanto esta destinada unicamente para el uso de la
    persona arriba indicada, se le notifica que esta prohibida la difusion de
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  • Richard Brodie at Aug 14, 2003 at 3:26 pm
    <sismex01 at hebmex.com> wrote in message news:mailman.1060872297.29542.python-list at python.org...
    As an example, someone mentioned the Arianne accident, a few years
    back, which was "caused" by a Zero-division error caught by the
    code, which raised some kind of error condition (I don't do Ada).
    No, it was an overflow converting a floating point to integer.
    The module was originally designed for Arianne 4, which had
    different flight characteristics.
    BUT, it seems that the segment of code being checked wasn't even
    going to be executed (something about horizontan acceleration),
    and since the rocket was already in the air, that code shouldn't
    have mattered; "if it was C, then the operation would have silently
    failed, and the rocket would have kept flying".
    It was in a background task, that was unnecessary. However the
    exception handling was specified to be: write results to EEPROM
    and halt. It's true that in C one would likely have garbage values
    in the integer, and the error would have gone unnoticed. I'm not
    sure I find that a comforting thought though.

    The full text of the report is on the web, and should be required
    reading:

    http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_plasma/missions/cluster/about_cluster/cluster1/ariane5rep.html
  • Terry Reedy at Aug 14, 2003 at 4:34 pm
    "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:bhg9nc$161k at newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...
    The full text of the [Ariane 5 failure]report is on the web, and
    should be required
    reading:
    http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_plasma/missions/cluster/about_cluster/cluster1/ariane5rep.html

    Having just read this, I second the suggestion. What the report hints
    at is that the 'root' cause of the failure was pride leading to
    complacency -- a trap most anyone can fall into -- and one which one
    language can completely protect against.

    Terry J. Reedy
  • Peter Hansen at Aug 14, 2003 at 4:35 pm

    Terry Reedy wrote:
    "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:bhg9nc$161k at newton.cc.rl.ac.uk...
    The full text of the [Ariane 5 failure]report is on the web, and
    should be required
    reading:
    http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_plasma/missions/cluster/about_cluster/cluster1/ariane5rep.html

    Having just read this, I second the suggestion. What the report hints
    at is that the 'root' cause of the failure was pride leading to
    complacency -- a trap most anyone can fall into -- and one which one
    language can completely protect against.
    Which one?

    Ah, perhaps you meant the "language of humility"? ;-)

    Or maybe you meant "one which *no* language can completely protect against". :)

    -Peter
  • Tom Hanks at Aug 15, 2003 at 7:11 am
    "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie at rl.ac.uk> wrote in message
    [snip]
    It was in a background task, that was unnecessary. However the
    exception handling was specified to be: write results to EEPROM
    and halt. It's true that in C one would likely have garbage values
    in the integer, and the error would have gone unnoticed. I'm not
    sure I find that a comforting thought though.
    Yeah, I hate "fail-silently" - it's much simpler to find errors if you
    simply explode the rocket to draw attention to your typo. :)

    TTFN,
    Tom.
  • Sismex01 at Aug 14, 2003 at 4:55 pm
    [Terry Reedy]
    >
    http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_plasma/missions/cluster/about_cluster/cluster1
    /ariane5rep.html
    Having just read this, I second the suggestion. What the report hints
    at is that the 'root' cause of the failure was pride leading to
    complacency -- a trap most anyone can fall into -- and one which one
    language can completely protect against.
    Which language is that? :-)

    -gustavo

    pd: Yeah, I know you meant "...no language can..." ;-)


    Advertencia:La informacion contenida en este mensaje es confidencial y
    restringida, por lo tanto esta destinada unicamente para el uso de la
    persona arriba indicada, se le notifica que esta prohibida la difusion de
    este mensaje. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, o si hay problemas en
    la transmision, favor de comunicarse con el remitente. Gracias.

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