FAQ
Dear friends.

During a conversation with good friends and newly acquired
Pythonista, we were discussing Python, what it is in essence,
and what it is giving to us.

The people were Dinu Gherman, Giorgio Giacomazzi,
a promizing newcomer in the Python noosphere, and myself.

We were discussing how to advertize for Python, and Dinu
spread some of the recent library enhancements, like

- email package
- XML parsers
- distutils
- add lots of other great stuff, here.

Then, after a while of silence, Giorgio said something like
"""
Well, right.
But despite of the libraries, I was hit by pure Python,
by the following, simply by using it interactively:

There are these lists, these tuples, and these dicts.
They are immediately there, at my fingertips. And this is
a feeling that I never had, before. Especially these dicts
are incredible.

This was a feeling like 'getting rich overnight'.
"""

I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
own capabilities, immediately.

It needed the fresh experience of a newcomer to become aware
of this, again.

The ambiguity is obvious. On first reading, it will attract
many. On second reading, those who are thinking "ahh, ohh, yes,
not I understand" will remain. But that's ok for a good slogan!

got rich overnight by Python!

being rich since 1800 nights now - sincerely -- chris

--
Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
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  • Bill Janssen at Aug 9, 2003 at 4:56 am
    I think I prefer



    Get Rich Overnight:

    Get Python


    Bill
  • Christian Tismer at Aug 10, 2003 at 9:54 pm

    Bill Janssen wrote:

    Get Rich Overnight:

    Get Python
    Not bad, but no better concerning SPAM filters.

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
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  • Dan at Aug 9, 2003 at 5:05 am
    Great post! Yes, I felt the same way when I first saw the language.
    It's funny because I had a company and we bought a company, and they
    said they were using Python as their scripting language, but we had to
    close that division and I never really saw it.

    Then much later, I had a project that needed something with a clear
    syntax, more like english than C++. I fiddled with Python and fell in
    love. I haven't felt this way since I learned Basic in 7th grade (I
    know Basic sucks now, but then there was nothing else), or when I did
    my first assembly programming, or fiddled with Lisp and Forth. I
    never felt that way with C/C++, I have always felt like I was climbing
    uphill.

    When I first saw the indentation-critical, bracket-less syntax, it was
    like "Oh my god, how many years have I wasted trying to see where the
    braces correspond?"

    Many years ago I had an idea for a similar syntax, but I never pursued
    it. Now I don't have to, it is right there for me! This may sound
    silly, but since using Python, I have felt this wierd sense of
    liberation -- like my decision to become a programmer finally has
    meaning. I work for 2 or 3 hours, and I have coded so much I have to
    stop and think... With the typical strictly-typed langs popular in
    the last 15 years, I never feel productive. I am at war with the
    compiler, the linker, the libraries... it's a fight from beginning to
    end.

    I have many friends whose brains must be wired differently. They love
    the feeling of control a tough compiler gives them... they believe the
    compiler should do all the work for them. I am just different... I
    have always loved dynamic languages. I just want a thing to be
    whatever I want, and if I change my mind, I don't want to
    *necessarily* have to make new prototypes, new header files.. I just
    want to stick something else in that container, even though I never
    thought I would, and I never warned anyone.

    It's just -- well, it's freedom to code your own way. It's the
    antidote to code rage.

    Just my thoughts, late at night...

    Keep up the good work!!

    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1060398016.22259.python-list at python.org>...
    Dear friends.

    During a conversation with good friends and newly acquired
    Pythonista, we were discussing Python, what it is in essence,
    and what it is giving to us.

    The people were Dinu Gherman, Giorgio Giacomazzi,
    a promizing newcomer in the Python noosphere, and myself.

    We were discussing how to advertize for Python, and Dinu
    spread some of the recent library enhancements, like

    - email package
    - XML parsers
    - distutils
    - add lots of other great stuff, here.

    Then, after a while of silence, Giorgio said something like
    """
    Well, right.
    But despite of the libraries, I was hit by pure Python,
    by the following, simply by using it interactively:

    There are these lists, these tuples, and these dicts.
    They are immediately there, at my fingertips. And this is
    a feeling that I never had, before. Especially these dicts
    are incredible.

    This was a feeling like 'getting rich overnight'.
    """

    I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
    is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
    I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
    Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
    Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
    own capabilities, immediately.

    It needed the fresh experience of a newcomer to become aware
    of this, again.

    The ambiguity is obvious. On first reading, it will attract
    many. On second reading, those who are thinking "ahh, ohh, yes,
    not I understand" will remain. But that's ok for a good slogan!

    got rich overnight by Python!

    being rich since 1800 nights now - sincerely -- chris
  • Robert Kern at Aug 9, 2003 at 8:21 am
    In article <mailman.1060398016.22259.python-list at python.org>,
    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> writes:

    [snip]
    I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
    is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
    I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
    Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
    Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
    own capabilities, immediately.
    While I certainly share that sentiment, I would advise caution in the phrasing
    of such a slogan: if I hadn't seen your name, I would have skipped your article
    as spam!

    --
    Robert Kern
    kern at caltech.edu

    "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
    Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
    -- Richard Harter
  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 9, 2003 at 10:36 pm

    Robert Kern wrote:
    While I certainly share that sentiment, I would advise caution in the
    phrasing of such a slogan: if I hadn't seen your name, I would have
    skipped your article as spam!
    I read it for amusement value. Nothing in computers gets you rich
    overnight, so I wanted to see how far the absurdity would go.

    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Timo Virkkala at Aug 10, 2003 at 5:34 am

    Robert Kern wrote:
    In article <mailman.1060398016.22259.python-list at python.org>,
    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> writes:
    [snip]
    I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
    is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
    I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
    Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
    Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
    own capabilities, immediately.
    While I certainly share that sentiment, I would advise caution in the phrasing
    of such a slogan: if I hadn't seen your name, I would have skipped your article
    as spam!
    I _did_, the first time around.

    --
    Timo Virkkala | wt at nic.fi

    "In the battle between you and the world, bet on the world."
  • Christian Tismer at Aug 10, 2003 at 9:59 pm

    Timo Virkkala wrote:

    Robert Kern wrote:
    ...
    While I certainly share that sentiment, I would advise caution in the
    phrasing
    of such a slogan: if I hadn't seen your name, I would have skipped
    your article
    as spam!
    I _did_, the first time around.
    Sure.
    I think, this cannot work in emails subject lines.
    If at all, then such a thing must be printed
    on T-Shirts.

    While sounding similar, but with a completely
    different meaning,

    "Getting rich comparisons overnight"

    might not be caught by SPAM filters :-))

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
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  • Christian Tismer at Aug 10, 2003 at 9:56 pm
    Robert Kern wrote:

    ...
    While I certainly share that sentiment, I would advise caution in the phrasing
    of such a slogan: if I hadn't seen your name, I would have skipped your article
    as spam!
    Absolutely agreed!
    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?
    If I remove the ambiguity, the slogan gets lame.
    Any ideas?

    ciao - chris

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
    PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
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  • Cliff Wells at Aug 10, 2003 at 11:12 pm

    On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 14:56, Christian Tismer wrote:

    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?
    If I remove the ambiguity, the slogan gets lame.
    Any ideas?
    jkadf Getting Rich Overnight zxklaf

    --
    She licked her lips and turned to feather
    -Bauhaus
  • Ben Finney at Aug 10, 2003 at 11:13 pm

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:56:01 +0200, Christian Tismer wrote:
    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?
    The much greater battle is: if it passes electronic/programmatic
    filters, how are you going to get it past the wetware filters -- i.e.,
    the fact that it just sounds like spam when you hear it?
    If I remove the ambiguity, the slogan gets lame.
    Anything with "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" already has far too many
    negative connotations to sound un-lame.
    Any ideas?
    Choose another slogan, forget the "get rich" nonsense. While the
    sentiment is great, and I agree it's a wonderful feeling when you
    realise how much your options have increased with little effort, the
    "get rich overnight" just doesn't jibe with me.

    The feeling isn't one of being (financially) rich; it's one of being
    free from restrictions. Another thread recently mentioned the idea
    that, opposed to other languages, Python lets you go home on time.
    That's closer to the mark.

    --
    \ "If life deals you lemons, why not go kill someone with the |
    `\ lemons (maybe by shoving them down his throat)." -- Jack Handey |
    _o__) |
    http://bignose.squidly.org/ 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B
  • Christian Tismer at Aug 11, 2003 at 1:09 am

    Ben Finney wrote:
    On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:56:01 +0200, Christian Tismer wrote:

    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?

    The much greater battle is: if it passes electronic/programmatic
    filters, how are you going to get it past the wetware filters -- i.e.,
    the fact that it just sounds like spam when you hear it?
    It does not sound like spam when you read it.
    Getting you to read it is the trick.
    If I remove the ambiguity, the slogan gets lame.
    Anything with "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" already has far too many
    negative connotations to sound un-lame.
    Right. But is this my fault?
    Choose another slogan, forget the "get rich" nonsense. While the
    sentiment is great, and I agree it's a wonderful feeling when you
    realise how much your options have increased with little effort, the
    "get rich overnight" just doesn't jibe with me.
    Yeah, true. The bare fact that "getting rich overnight" has
    become something that we regard as spam:
    Isn't that telling us a *very very* bad story?
    The spammers *have* won, we are playing *their* games.
    Can you see it?
    The feeling isn't one of being (financially) rich; it's one of being
    free from restrictions. Another thread recently mentioned the idea
    that, opposed to other languages, Python lets you go home on time.
    That's closer to the mark.
    Fine. And you let spammers dictate to you what they want
    you to think? I do think this is going way too far.
    We have already allowed them to get too far.
    Did I say anything bad? Nothing at all, this was said by
    other people. And those are dictating to us, what to say
    and what not to say.
    SHould we really continue to support this?

    I hereby simply propose to prohibit SPAM. Really, really
    prohibiting it, with all legal consequences.

    I do want to be able to say that I got rich overnight,
    by using Python.

    When *we* are unable to accept such a statement, because
    *some* people are claiming this to be *their* spamming
    vocabulary, whose fault is this, then?
    I do believe this is *our* fault, because we allowed
    this to happen, silently. Shame on US.

    Shame on me as well, since I installed a SPAM filter,
    instead of starting a real fight which they can't win.

    cheers - chris

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
    PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
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  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 11, 2003 at 6:51 am

    Christian Tismer wrote:
    Ben Finney wrote:
    Anything with "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" already has far too
    many negative connotations to sound un-lame.
    Right. But is this my fault?
    Yes, it's your fault. The language already exists, and you know it's out
    there, so you are guilty of picking the extant lame words.

    Are you guilty of inventing the lame words? No, of course not. But if you
    say "fuck you" to someone, does it matter who invented it?
    Fine. And you let spammers dictate to you what they want
    you to think?
    Dude, "get rich overnight" was lame way before spammers. Face it, your
    slogan only sounds good to the choir. Someone like me, who isn't converted
    on Python yet, rightfully asks "How stupid do you think I am?"
    I do think this is going way too far.
    We have already allowed them to get too far.
    Did I say anything bad? Nothing at all, this was said by
    other people. And those are dictating to us, what to say
    and what not to say.
    SHould we really continue to support this?
    Get over it. Go back to the drawing board, design another slogan. You test
    marketed your slogan, it failed. That's life. It doesn't take that much
    time and energy to come up with other slogans. Heck, given enough
    iterations, maybe you'll find a new career in marketing. Marketing is
    actually pretty important to the success of software, so you could even
    stick to high tech marketing.
    I hereby simply propose to prohibit SPAM. Really, really
    prohibiting it, with all legal consequences.
    We couldn't even get the UN to prohibit WMDs in a timely, accountable
    fashion. 12 years of Saddam's stonewalling, followed by a French suggestion
    that we should do 12..18 months more of it, despite the obvious
    implacability of the dictator. Suggest you look to illegal consequences,
    because legal ones can't do anything. The problem with illegal consequences
    in anti-SPAM arenas is the tend to only do collateral damage, not hit the
    perps.
    I do want to be able to say that I got rich overnight, by using Python.
    Generally speaking, that's a Testimonial.
    When *we* are unable to accept such a statement, because
    *some* people are claiming this to be *their* spamming
    vocabulary, whose fault is this, then?
    Yours. You are way too idealistic, worrying about langauge ownership issues
    that are completely beyond your control. Your idealism is your own fault.
    Pragmatists simply observe "this won't work" and move on with something that
    will.
    Shame on me as well, since I installed a SPAM filter,
    instead of starting a real fight which they can't win.
    Your idealism also inhibits your ability to make a realistic analysis on
    this point.

    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Christian Tismer at Aug 11, 2003 at 11:57 am

    Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

    Christian Tismer wrote:
    Ben Finney wrote:
    Anything with "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" already has far too
    many negative connotations to sound un-lame.
    Right. But is this my fault?

    Yes, it's your fault. The language already exists, and you know it's out
    there, so you are guilty of picking the extant lame words.
    I was not picking them.
    They were said by another guy, who
    said in German
    "Python hat mich ?ber nacht reich gemacht".

    My problem is not that sentence. In German,
    it still has a useful meaning.
    My problem is the impossibility
    to translate it into English without loosing meaning.

    ...
    Dude, "get rich overnight" was lame way before spammers. Face it, your
    slogan only sounds good to the choir. Someone like me, who isn't converted
    on Python yet, rightfully asks "How stupid do you think I am?"
    I don't discuss that in public :-)

    ciao - chris
    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
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  • Steve Williams at Aug 11, 2003 at 1:55 pm
    Christian Tismer wrote:
    [snip]
    They were said by another guy, who
    said in German
    "Python hat mich ?ber nacht reich gemacht".

    My problem is not that sentence. In German,
    it still has a useful meaning.
    My problem is the impossibility
    to translate it into English without loosing meaning.
    How about "I hit the jackpot with Python"
  • Scott David Daniels at Aug 11, 2003 at 3:28 pm

    Christian Tismer wrote (in response to Brandon J. Van Every):
    ... I was not picking them.
    They were said by another guy, who
    said in German
    "Python hat mich ?ber nacht reich gemacht".

    My problem is not that sentence. In German,
    it still has a useful meaning.
    My problem is the impossibility
    to translate it into English without loosing meaning.
    Though Idon't know German, I'll propose another formulation:
    "Python can enrich you overnight."
    Enrich is less inevitably used in a monetary sense.

    -Scott David Daniels
    Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org
  • Terry Reedy at Aug 11, 2003 at 4:32 pm
    "Christian Tismer" <tismer at tismer.com> wrote in message
    news:mailman.1060602978.32477.python-list at python.org...
    I was not picking them.
    They were said by another guy, who
    said in German
    "Python hat mich ?ber nacht reich gemacht".

    My problem is not that sentence. In German,
    it still has a useful meaning.
    My problem is the impossibility
    to translate it into English without loosing meaning.
    "Python Makes You Glow' covers the main point.

    TJR
  • Robert Kern at Aug 11, 2003 at 7:36 am
    In article <mailman.1060564217.5526.python-list at python.org>,
    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> writes:
    Ben Finney wrote:
    On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:56:01 +0200, Christian Tismer wrote:

    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?

    The much greater battle is: if it passes electronic/programmatic
    filters, how are you going to get it past the wetware filters -- i.e.,
    the fact that it just sounds like spam when you hear it?
    It does not sound like spam when you read it.
    Getting you to read it is the trick.
    Yes, but I think Ben's point is that there are more "filters" that go between
    the eyeballs ("seeing") and actual comprehension ("reading"). I know that my
    brain often scans the gross meaning of the words to determine interest before it
    actually reads for comprehension. Usually, this mode of operation kicks in for
    activities like scanning subject lines of USENET articles or seeing a T-shirt
    slogan.

    Now, the situations where your slogan might be used may not trigger this "mode".
    On the other hand, it still triggers another "filter" in my head.

    I simply don't read "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" and the like as
    meaningful phrases anymore. Your article is the first time in years that I have
    seen it used in any context besides a scam. I have to try hard to read "Python
    makes you rich, overnight" and extract the intending meaning from it.
    If I remove the ambiguity, the slogan gets lame.
    Anything with "get rich {quick,fast,overnight}" already has far too many
    negative connotations to sound un-lame.
    Right. But is this my fault?
    No, of course not. It is simply an unfortunate coincidence that an incredibly
    apt way of describing the Python experience has been used by scammers for much,
    much longer, probably since the beginning of modern English. (I'm working from a
    US monophone's perspective here. The slogan may work perfectly well in other
    languages or countries with different scams. I can't address those
    possbilities.)
    Choose another slogan, forget the "get rich" nonsense. While the
    sentiment is great, and I agree it's a wonderful feeling when you
    realise how much your options have increased with little effort, the
    "get rich overnight" just doesn't jibe with me.
    Yeah, true. The bare fact that "getting rich overnight" has
    become something that we regard as spam:
    Isn't that telling us a *very very* bad story?
    The spammers *have* won, we are playing *their* games.
    Can you see it?
    I don't think it works that way. I'm positive that scammers would much prefer
    that we give as much attention to their slogans as we do to things that really
    matter to us. The desensitization that comes from overuse of certain phrases
    hurts them, too. That's why you now see spam e-mails with conversational
    subjects like "Hey, listen to this" as if they came from your friend. They
    really, really, really want you to associate "Get Rich Quick!" with "Great
    opportunity I should really look into", not "Scam: Ignore".

    Yes, it has some sad effects in this case, but desensitization is a perfectly
    natural (and in most cases, beneficial) adaptation to overstimulus. If I gave
    every spam email or scam flyer the same attention I would like to give "Python
    makes you rich, overnight", I'd go nuts. It's not just my email (which SpamBayes
    takes care of quite nicely); "Get Rich Quick!" flyers cover just about every
    telephone pole I bike past. Since SpamBayes does not (yet!) interface with my
    eyeballs, my wetware filters are the best I've got. However, their false
    positive rates are not yet as low as SpamBayes'.

    I may be idiosyncratic in this, however. I'm particularly intolerant to overuse
    of certain phrases. "Terror" lost its meaning to me about an hour into
    2001-09-11.

    And perhaps only English-speaking US is really affected this way. I don't know.
    The feeling isn't one of being (financially) rich; it's one of being
    free from restrictions. Another thread recently mentioned the idea
    that, opposed to other languages, Python lets you go home on time.
    That's closer to the mark.
    Fine. And you let spammers dictate to you what they want
    you to think? I do think this is going way too far.
    We have already allowed them to get too far.
    Did I say anything bad? Nothing at all, this was said by
    other people. And those are dictating to us, what to say
    and what not to say.
    SHould we really continue to support this?
    Come on, there's no need to take this personally. It's a great slogan that
    succinctly describes the almost-revelatory experience of the Python newbie.
    Unfortunately, it is surrounded by circumstances beyond your or my control that
    hamper its potential in certain situations.

    --
    Robert Kern
    kern at caltech.edu

    "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
    Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
    -- Richard Harter
  • Christian Tismer at Aug 11, 2003 at 11:46 am
    Robert Kern wrote:
    ...

    [Me, in a bad mood]
    Did I say anything bad? Nothing at all, this was said by
    other people. And those are dictating to us, what to say
    and what not to say.
    SHould we really continue to support this?
    [Robert]
    Come on, there's no need to take this personally. It's a great slogan that
    succinctly describes the almost-revelatory experience of the Python newbie.
    Unfortunately, it is surrounded by circumstances beyond your or my control that
    hamper its potential in certain situations.
    You're right. Once again, I abused emails as a valve
    for personal anger, which is never good. Sorry.

    ciao - chris

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
    PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
    whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/
  • Raymond A. St. Marie at Aug 11, 2003 at 8:10 am
    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1060564217.5526.python-list at python.org>...
    Ben Finney wrote:
    On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:56:01 +0200, Christian Tismer wrote:

    But is there any way for such a slogan to pass spam at all?

    The much greater battle is: if it passes electronic/programmatic
    filters, how are you going to get it past the wetware filters -- i.e.,
    the fact that it just sounds like spam when you hear it?
    It does not sound like spam when you read it.
    Getting you to read it is the trick.
    Hey, Christian,

    How about...

    P rograms
    Y ou
    T hink-up
    H appen
    O ver
    N ight
  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 11, 2003 at 9:26 am

    Raymond A. St. Marie wrote:
    How about...

    P rograms
    Y ou
    T hink-up
    H appen
    O ver
    N ight
    [Faced with Programmer Marketing, a person runs screaming from the
    newsgroup.]

    Please You're Trying Hard Over Nothing


    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Heiko Wundram at Aug 9, 2003 at 1:10 pm

    On Sat, 2003-08-09 at 04:59, Christian Tismer wrote:
    got rich overnight by Python!
    Couldn't have said it better...

    Python led be out of the deep dark caves of lowlevel programming and the
    other P-languages 2 years ago, and I still don't regret my choice in the
    least.

    Heiko.
  • JanC at Aug 10, 2003 at 1:48 am

    Bill Janssen <janssen at parc.com> schreef:

    I think I prefer
    Get Rich Overnight:

    Get Python
    That would be a good "link banner" text too...

    --
    JanC

    "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
    RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9
  • Val at Aug 11, 2003 at 3:01 am
    Hi Christian,
    If the slogan concept is set aside for awhile,
    i independently came to the same/close idea of
    'application-specific' or 'enriched' (in the spirit of IPython)
    command line (CL), a python-based one, of course.
    The interactive mode you are talking about indeed provides
    a unique *fast* feedback-driven capabilities for an app analysis
    and running.
    I'm working (on and off) on a 'lawyer CL', 'dentist CL',
    'project manager CL', etc trying to abstract a generic CL functionality
    and the limits of the CL concept. A command line in combination
    with the PythonWin like intellisense and Python help is a very
    flexible and powerful interactive environment. It may combine
    a purely CL facilities and quick GUIs fired from CL when necessary.
    Such a CL may provide an interactive access to rich business
    objects/methods and their functionality.
    A standard GUI is a great concept, but it has a fixed
    structure which may become a highly complicated for real-world apps.
    A well-designed CL actually splits a potentially huge GUI into
    manageable and app-specific "time slices" (CL+GUI) driven by the
    current output of the app.
    In some cases, a CL can be driven or evolve in a semiautomatic
    mode displaying (for a user) only pre-specified or dynamically generated
    critical elements of the application dynamics. Thus, a CL design
    (business objects accessed and their user control) may be highly
    flexible comparing with a fully pre-specified (and thus too rigid)
    program control.
    So, business objects' power under user fingertips seems to be a
    powerful concept, indeed. In fact, a living organism' functionality
    in an environment is split similarly into stimuli (inputs) and responses
    (outputs); an output, in turn, can represent a (pre-specified)
    sequence of responses potentially modifiable by the environment
    (user inputs). This way the virtual/autonomous users/agents can be
    setup and configured with various degree of decision-making
    capabilities beginning from simple user models ('beginner') and
    finishing with sophisticated user models ('expert') with a
    significant built-in knowledge of the application dynamics and,
    therefore, potential responses. So, a part of the app processing
    gets transferred into a user model with control, monitoring,
    debugging(?) and other 'who-knows' functions.
    Ok, enough nice dreams..
    Interactive-ly y'rs,
    val


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Christian Tismer" <tismer at tismer.com>
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
    Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 10:59 PM
    Subject: Slogan: Getting Rich Overnight

    Dear friends.

    During a conversation with good friends and newly acquired
    Pythonista, we were discussing Python, what it is in essence,
    and what it is giving to us.

    The people were Dinu Gherman, Giorgio Giacomazzi,
    a promising newcomer in the Python noosphere, and myself.

    We were discussing how to advertise for Python, and Dinu
    spread some of the recent library enhancements, like

    - email package
    - XML parsers
    - distutils
    - add lots of other great stuff, here.

    Then, after a while of silence, Giorgio said something like
    """
    Well, right.
    But despite of the libraries, I was hit by pure Python,
    by the following, simply by using it interactively:

    There are these lists, these tuples, and these dicts.
    They are immediately there, at my fingertips. And this is
    a feeling that I never had, before. Especially these dicts
    are incredible.

    This was a feeling like 'getting rich overnight'.
    """

    I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
    is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
    I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
    Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
    Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
    own capabilities, immediately.

    It needed the fresh experience of a newcomer to become aware
    of this, again.

    The ambiguity is obvious. On first reading, it will attract
    many. On second reading, those who are thinking "ahh, ohh, yes,
    not I understand" will remain. But that's ok for a good slogan!

    got rich overnight by Python!

    being rich since 1800 nights now - sincerely -- chris

    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
    PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
    whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/


  • Graham Fawcett at Aug 11, 2003 at 6:58 pm
    "val" <val at vtek.com> wrote in message news:<bh710m$ukbvj$1 at ID-62387.news.uni-berlin.de>...
    A standard GUI is a great concept, but it has a fixed
    structure which may become a highly complicated for real-world apps.
    A well-designed CL actually splits a potentially huge GUI into
    manageable and app-specific "time slices" (CL+GUI) driven by the
    current output of the app. [snip]
    So, business objects' power under user fingertips seems to be a
    powerful concept, indeed. In fact, a living organism' functionality
    in an environment is split similarly into stimuli (inputs) and responses
    (outputs); an output, in turn, can represent a (pre-specified)
    sequence of responses potentially modifiable by the environment
    (user inputs).

    This suggests another slogan for Python...

    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"

    With apologies to the prudent,

    -- Graham
  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 11, 2003 at 9:49 pm

    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."

    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Graham Fawcett at Aug 12, 2003 at 2:49 am
    "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message news:<bh92fv$uqhsl$1 at ID-203719.news.uni-berlin.de>...
    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."
    ...and GUI is a homonym of "gooey". Was my joke too obscure?

    i-thought-it-was-funny-in-context-ly yours,

    -- G
  • Tim Peters at Aug 12, 2003 at 3:20 am
    [Graham Fawcett]
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"
    [Brandon J. Van Every]
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."
    [Graham]
    ...and GUI is a homonym of "gooey". Was my joke too obscure?

    i-thought-it-was-funny-in-context-ly yours,
    Barry Warsaw and Fred Drake and I laughed long and hard when we saw it this
    afternoon. I confess we questioned your sanity, but we're all keen to adopt
    it as the Official Motto of the next PyCon!

    we're-gonna-get-soooooooo-rich-from-the-t-shirt-sales-ly y'rs - tim
  • Aahz at Aug 12, 2003 at 5:17 am
    In article <e9570f37.0308111849.705efbed at posting.google.com>,
    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message news:<bh92fv$uqhsl$1 at ID-203719.news.uni-berlin.de>...
    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."
    ...and GUI is a homonym of "gooey". Was my joke too obscure?

    i-thought-it-was-funny-in-context-ly yours,
    The problem was with neither messenger nor message.
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 12, 2003 at 9:28 am

    Aahz wrote:
    In article <e9570f37.0308111849.705efbed at posting.google.com>,
    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
    news:<bh92fv$uqhsl$1 at ID-203719.news.uni-berlin.de>...
    Graham Fawcett wrote:
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips,
    without all the GUI mess!"
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."
    ...and GUI is a homonym of "gooey". Was my joke too obscure?

    i-thought-it-was-funny-in-context-ly yours,
    The problem was with neither messenger nor message.
    Was there a problem?

    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Smarter_than_you at Aug 12, 2003 at 1:16 am
    I know this is an old thread already, but my 2c --

    If that Brandon idiot hates it, it's a great slogan. Use it and let
    the doubters be damned. Anyone who doesn't get the irony is not
    worthy of understanding the sentiment.

    -ds

    Christian Tismer <tismer at tismer.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1060398016.22259.python-list at python.org>...
    Dear friends.

    During a conversation with good friends and newly acquired
    Pythonista, we were discussing Python, what it is in essence,
    and what it is giving to us.

    The people were Dinu Gherman, Giorgio Giacomazzi,
    a promizing newcomer in the Python noosphere, and myself.

    We were discussing how to advertize for Python, and Dinu
    spread some of the recent library enhancements, like

    - email package
    - XML parsers
    - distutils
    - add lots of other great stuff, here.

    Then, after a while of silence, Giorgio said something like
    """
    Well, right.
    But despite of the libraries, I was hit by pure Python,
    by the following, simply by using it interactively:

    There are these lists, these tuples, and these dicts.
    They are immediately there, at my fingertips. And this is
    a feeling that I never had, before. Especially these dicts
    are incredible.

    This was a feeling like 'getting rich overnight'.
    """

    I loved this statement very much, and I have to say, this
    is essentially my feeling for myself, since many years now.
    I could imagine that this might be a candidate for next year's
    Python congress' slogan. "Python makes you rich, overnight".
    Not by money, in the first place, but by multiplying your
    own capabilities, immediately.

    It needed the fresh experience of a newcomer to become aware
    of this, again.

    The ambiguity is obvious. On first reading, it will attract
    many. On second reading, those who are thinking "ahh, ohh, yes,
    not I understand" will remain. But that's ok for a good slogan!

    got rich overnight by Python!

    being rich since 1800 nights now - sincerely -- chris
  • Brandon J. Van Every at Aug 12, 2003 at 4:29 am

    smarter_than_you wrote:
    I know this is an old thread already, but my 2c --

    If that Brandon idiot hates it, it's a great slogan. Use it and let
    the doubters be damned. Anyone who doesn't get the irony is not
    worthy of understanding the sentiment.
    Wow, I know I've been a provocateur on this point, but surely that is
    throwing business rationality right out the window! At any rate, welcome to
    my killfile. If knee-jerkism is the extent of your marketing analysis, I
    surely don't need to hear about it.

    --
    Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    20% of the world is real.
    80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
  • Dan at Aug 12, 2003 at 3:53 pm
    "Brandon J. Van Every" <vanevery at 3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message news:<bh9pu4
    At any rate, welcome to
    my killfile. If knee-jerkism is the extent of your marketing analysis, I
    surely don't need to hear about it.
    If everyone who disagrees with you is on your killfile, how will you
    have any fun arguing? I don't give a shit about you or your killfile,
    this is about what's good for Python.

    I'm not knee-jerk. I've run a public company worth $1B. I know
    marketing. I think you're wrong, period. You think you know more
    than you do.

    It's a great slogan for its target audience. I'm going to put it on a
    T-shirt for myself and see what kinds of reactions I get.

    -smy
  • Graham Fawcett at Aug 12, 2003 at 1:47 pm
    "Tim Peters" <tim.one at comcast.net> wrote in message news:[Graham Fawcett]
    "Python: stimulate powerful organisms under your fingertips, without
    all the GUI mess!"
    [Brandon J. Van Every]
    "Organisms" is easily misread as "orgasms."
    [Graham]
    ...and GUI is a homonym of "gooey". Was my joke too obscure?

    i-thought-it-was-funny-in-context-ly yours,
    Barry Warsaw and Fred Drake and I laughed long and hard when we saw it this
    afternoon. I confess we questioned your sanity, but we're all keen to adopt
    it as the Official Motto of the next PyCon!

    we're-gonna-get-soooooooo-rich-from-the-t-shirt-sales-ly y'rs - tim
    Thanks. I'd attend *just* to buy the t-shirt!

    ...ahh, PyCon, where birds of a feather get flocked together...

    stopping-while-I'm-ahead-ly yours,

    -- Graham

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