FAQ
I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.

We're currently looking at .Net, and I'm not very impressed, for a
variety of reasons. A little research makes me feel that either Java
or Python would be a good alternative, and given my level of
experience, I'd much prefer Python over Java. I *think* I could
actually get up to speed faster with Python than with VB and ASP.Net,
in spite of my ASP/VBS experience.

My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
since corporate is MS all the way.

Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
than IDLE)?

It may very well be that .Net is best for me/us, but from what I've
seen of Python, I *really* like the language and I'd at least like to
see a good demonstration of a full-blown app before ruling it out.
(Something along the lines of what I mentioned above would be ideal,
but not a necessity.)

Thanks!

Lee Gray

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  • Jay O'Connor at Sep 17, 2002 at 8:17 am
    In article <96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com>, "Lee Gray"
    wrote:
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other than
    IDLE)?
    Bioreason makes some products in Python. You can see some screenshots of
    their Python/Gtk products here: http://www.bioreason.com/lead.html and
    http://www.bioreason.com/drug.html

    --
    Jay O'Connor
    joconnor at cybermesa.com
    http://www.r4h.org/r4hsoftware
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:50 am

    Jay O'Connor wrote:

    In article <96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com>, "Lee Gray"
    wrote:
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other than
    IDLE)?
    Bioreason makes some products in Python. You can see some screenshots of
    their Python/Gtk products here: http://www.bioreason.com/lead.html and
    http://www.bioreason.com/drug.html
    Thanks, I'll show those.

    Lee
  • Colin J. Williams at Sep 18, 2002 at 3:05 pm
    You might look at:
    http://www.scopal.com/information06.htm

    A digital oscilloscope is controlled by a PC, using wxPython
    and Python.

    Colin W.

    Lee Gray wrote:
    Jay O'Connor wrote:
    In article <96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com>, "Lee Gray"
    wrote:
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other than
    IDLE)?
    Bioreason makes some products in Python. You can see some screenshots of
    their Python/Gtk products here: http://www.bioreason.com/lead.html and
    http://www.bioreason.com/drug.html
    Thanks, I'll show those.

    Lee
  • Chris Liechti at Sep 17, 2002 at 9:20 pm
    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    with python you have to choice of diffrent GUI libs. if you consider
    wxWindows you can play around with the wxPython demo application that comes
    with the download. on the other hand when you support win32 only the
    win32all package has support for all the windows APIs and it has some
    samples that get installed.

    chris
    --
    Chris <cliechti at gmx.net>
  • Cameron Laird at Sep 17, 2002 at 9:49 pm
    In article <Xns928CED692541cliechtigmxnet at 62.2.16.82>,
    Chris Liechti wrote:
    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    with python you have to choice of diffrent GUI libs. if you consider
    wxWindows you can play around with the wxPython demo application that comes
    with the download. on the other hand when you support win32 only the
    win32all package has support for all the windows APIs and it has some
    samples that get installed.
    .
    .
    .
    You can have Python *and* .Net. Well, probably; it's
    been promised, and, to the extent anyone knew a year
    ago what .Net is, Python's part of it.

    While we're pointing out individual applications that
    might be of interest, please keep in mind that Python
    is in serious production use at tens of THOUSANDS of
    sites. Don't judge it solely by what you see of the
    first two demonstrations someone happens to push your
    way.

    Incidentally, Python *is* a "Microsoft solution".
    There are plenty of people within Microsoft who use
    Python because of its productivity in Win* contexts.
    It's hard for me to give concrete references for this
    claim; essentially all the people doing so describe
    their efforts only "off the record". I'm willing to
    bet, though, that Python will be around for longer
    than VBScript.
    --

    Cameron Laird <Cameron at Lairds.com>
    Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
    Personal: http://phaseit.net/claird/home.html
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:49 am

    Cameron Laird wrote:

    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    .
    While we're pointing out individual applications that
    might be of interest, please keep in mind that Python
    is in serious production use at tens of THOUSANDS of
    sites. Don't judge it solely by what you see of the
    first two demonstrations someone happens to push your
    way.
    I read that all the time (and believe it), but that's not going to impress
    my boss, much. He's still going to want something demonstrated up close and
    personal.
    their efforts only "off the record". I'm willing to
    bet, though, that Python will be around for longer
    than VBScript.
    I can certainly agree with that. There's already conflicting information
    about MS' continuing support of VBS, the Windows Script Host and IE's HTAs
    (HTML Applications) in the scripting newsgroups. That's one reason I want
    to learn Python personally, but if we're going to use it at work, I need to
    show something quickly to convince anyone (including myself!) that that's a
    good direction.

    Thanks,
    Lee
  • Dennis Reinhardt at Sep 18, 2002 at 4:48 am

    is in serious production use at tens of THOUSANDS of
    sites.
    I read that all the time (and believe it), but that's not going to impress
    my boss, much. He's still going to want something demonstrated up close and
    personal.
    Would he be impressed by a user interface that powers 2.1 BILLION web
    documents? (ref: alltheweb.com)

    I am about 2 weeks away from releasing HTUIL, an integrated client for
    Windows, hosting Python, Perl, and/or native PLD2 displaying in a standard
    web browser. See www.dair.com/hellopy.exe for a "hello" program written in
    Python and distributed as a standalone EXE on Windows.

    --

    Dennis Reinhardt

    http://www.dair.com
  • Robin Becker at Sep 18, 2002 at 6:56 pm
    In article <vATh9.666$oY5.33977741 at newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, Dennis
    Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> writes
    .......
    Would he be impressed by a user interface that powers 2.1 BILLION web
    documents? (ref: alltheweb.com)

    I am about 2 weeks away from releasing HTUIL, an integrated client for
    Windows, hosting Python, Perl, and/or native PLD2 displaying in a standard
    web browser. See www.dair.com/hellopy.exe for a "hello" program written in
    Python and distributed as a standalone EXE on Windows.

    --

    Dennis Reinhardt
    Well hoping Dennis is genuine and has better control over virii than my
    outdated anti-virals I tried running this 360k hello world.

    Now I'm confused, I have K-Meleon 0.6 installed as my standard, but
    hellopy.exe tries to use Netscape 4.78 (also installed on my machine)
    and fails to display anything properly (I see the source in the browser
    window).

    Probably one of those pesky registry settings over which only Billy
    Goats has any control.
    --
    Robin Becker
  • Dennis Reinhardt at Sep 18, 2002 at 9:57 pm

    Well hoping Dennis is genuine and has better control over virii than my
    outdated anti-virals I tried running this 360k hello world.
    I think I am genuine. The base code compiles entirely from source in the
    PLD2 compiler language I developed (www.pld2.com); I think I have adequate
    control.
    Now I'm confused, I have K-Meleon 0.6 installed as my standard, but
    hellopy.exe tries to use Netscape 4.78 (also installed on my machine)
    and fails to display anything properly (I see the source in the browser
    window).
    Netscape instead of K-Meleon is a "registry thing". The code is looking for
    the association of ".htm" and running whatever the associated program is. I
    suspect if you have a local file called eggs.htm, that Netscape comes up
    when you double click the file. Perhaps K-Meleon comes up if you click
    spam.html. I dunno but the program is looking no further than the "open"
    verb of .htm.

    I have duplicated your experience with both Netscape and Opera on Win98. I
    have neither a fix nor a facile explanation at this time. I have repeatedly
    run both browsers on other CGI code in both Perl and native PLD2. I suspect
    a recent change here is at fault. I am working on fixing this now and will
    let you know.

    Thanks very much for the report.
    --

    Dennis Reinhardt

    DennisR at dair.com
    http://www.dair.com
  • Dennis Reinhardt at Sep 19, 2002 at 9:44 pm

    I have duplicated your experience with both Netscape and Opera on Win98. I
    have neither a fix nor a facile explanation at this time. I have
    repeatedly
    run both browsers on other CGI code in both Perl and native PLD2. I suspect
    a recent change here is at fault.
    The server code for implementing CGI style headers was incorrectly
    implemented. This is not a recent change but, rather, incorrect coding.
    When I posted the code URLs, I believed that I had "repeatedly run both
    browsers on other CGI code...". At this point, I can only conclude that the
    CGI code has been run on IE only (where it does work despite the header
    errors).

    Rather than rush a fix here, I am going to hold off reposting until I have
    done a proper release. The files sample files whose URLs have previously
    been given have been deleted so that no one else serves as an inadvertent
    beta tester.

    I am sorry for posting immature code.
    --

    Dennis Reinhardt

    DennisR at dair.com
    http://www.dair.com
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:42 am

    Chris Liechti wrote:

    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    with python you have to choice of diffrent GUI libs. if you consider
    wxWindows you can play around with the wxPython demo application that
    comes with the download. on the other hand when you support win32 only the
    win32all package has support for all the windows APIs and it has some
    samples that get installed.

    chris
    Well, our shop is win32 only, but on a personal level I'd like to be more
    flexible (I mostly use Linux at home). Isn't Tk still considered the
    "official" GUI lib?

    For a newbie, what's easier, Tk or wxWindows?

    Thanks,
    Lee
  • Rob Hall at Sep 18, 2002 at 1:17 am

    Well, our shop is win32 only, but on a personal level I'd like to be more
    flexible (I mostly use Linux at home). Isn't Tk still considered the
    "official" GUI lib?

    For a newbie, what's easier, Tk or wxWindows?
    Yes, tkinter is the official one, but many believe it should be wxPython
    (www.wxpython.org) . wxPython is an extremely good x-platform
    implementation. It is fast, with a native look and feel.

    wxpython also has some good ide packages. Boa is pretty good.
    PythonCardPrototype is also very good.

    If you use rational rose, I've started work on a python implementation. It
    will also work with visual modeller.


    Rob
  • Eric Brunel at Sep 18, 2002 at 8:46 am
    Lee Gray wrote:
    [snip]
    For a newbie, what's easier, Tk or wxWindows?
    Matter of taste, really... I do prefer Tkinter, because I find it far
    simpler than other GUI toolkits. But then, I've been into Tk for some years
    now, and maybe I'm too used to it.

    The first time I've looked at wxWindows and seen what's needed to open a
    simple window, it just made me run away screaming ;-). But seeing it again
    now, it's not that bad. See:

    http://www.wxpython.org/tut-part1.php

    In fact, example one in this tutorial would be much shorter in Tkinter than
    in wxWindows, but examples 2 & 3 would require much more code in pure
    Tkinter because of the status bar: it's apparently automatically managed by
    wxWindows, but not by Tkinter. Adding Pmw to Tkinter would make things
    easier ( see http://pmw.sourceforge.net ).

    For the record, here is the equivalent (untested) Tkinter+Pmw code for
    examples 1 & 3 in the wxPython tutorial:

    --- example 1 -------------------------
    from Tkinter import *

    topWdw = Tk()
    topWdw.title("Hello from Tkinter")
    topWdw.mainloop()
    ----------------------------------------

    --- example 3 -------------------------
    from Tkinter import *
    import Pmw

    ## Main window
    topWdw = Tk()
    topWdw.title("Hello from Tkinter")
    ## Status bar
    statusBar = Pmw.MessageBar(topWdw)
    statusBar.pack(side=BOTTOM, fill=X)
    ## Helper for menu items
    helper = Pmw.Balloon(topWdw)
    helper.configure(statuscommand=statusBar.helpmessage)
    ## Function displaying about screen
    def showAbout():
    showinfo('About Me', "This sample program shows off\n"
    "frames, menus, statusbars, and this\n"
    "message dialog.")
    ## Menus
    menuBar = Pmw.MainMenuBar(topWdw, balloon=helper)
    topWdw.configure(menu=menuBar)
    menuBar.addmenu('File', '')
    menuBar.addmenuitem('File', 'command',
    'More information about this program',
    label='About', command=showAbout)
    menuBar.addmenuitem('File', 'separator')
    menuBar.addmenuitem('File', 'command',
    'Terminate the program',
    label='Exit', command=topWdw.quit)
    topWdw.mainloop()
    ---------------------------------------

    Just see for yourself the one you find clearer.

    HTH
    --
    - Eric Brunel <eric.brunel at pragmadev.com> -
    PragmaDev : Real Time Software Development Tools - http://www.pragmadev.com
  • Rob Hall at Sep 18, 2002 at 11:51 am

    Matter of taste, really... I do prefer Tkinter, because I find it far
    simpler than other GUI toolkits. But then, I've been into Tk for some years
    now, and maybe I'm too used to it.
    Yes I agree. It is a matter of taste to some extent. I evaluated both,
    coming from a position of not knowing either, and wx seemed much simpler to
    me.

    Also, PythonCardPrototype is an excellent system for using wx. It puts a
    lot of the hard work in a separate file, letting you concentrate more on the
    application logic.

    The first time I've looked at wxWindows and seen what's needed to open a
    simple window, it just made me run away screaming ;-).
    I did that with tkinter. I ran, and ran. Then I found wx. I thought it
    wasn't so bad. Then when I looked at tk again, it didn't seem too bad
    either.


    I settled on wx for the following reasons...
    - I needed to settle on something, and pretty soon
    - wx has a native look and feel
    - wx is fast - compiled C++, whereas tkinter is a script. I found it to be
    almost unacceptably slow in some instances.
    - PythonCardPrototype would simplify things even further.

    Rob
  • Fred Pacquier at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:53 pm

    "Rob Hall" <bloke at ii.net> said :

    I settled on wx for the following reasons...
    - I needed to settle on something, and pretty soon
    - wx has a native look and feel
    - wx is fast - compiled C++, whereas tkinter is a script. I found it
    - to be
    almost unacceptably slow in some instances.
    - PythonCardPrototype would simplify things even further.
    not "would" -- "does" :-)
  • Bap at Sep 18, 2002 at 3:27 pm
    Does wx work with ActiveState Python? I tried to use and as soon as
    wxWindows imports, Python (2.2)
    bombs and your back out at Windows with no error message. On another group I
    was
    told that this is a known issue and wxWindows doesn't work with Active State
    Python.

    Rob Hall <bloke at ii.net> wrote in message
    news:3d8868b1$0$28683 at echo-01.iinet.net.au...
    Matter of taste, really... I do prefer Tkinter, because I find it far
    simpler than other GUI toolkits. But then, I've been into Tk for some years
    now, and maybe I'm too used to it.
    Yes I agree. It is a matter of taste to some extent. I evaluated both,
    coming from a position of not knowing either, and wx seemed much simpler to
    me.

    Also, PythonCardPrototype is an excellent system for using wx. It puts a
    lot of the hard work in a separate file, letting you concentrate more on the
    application logic.

    The first time I've looked at wxWindows and seen what's needed to open a
    simple window, it just made me run away screaming ;-).
    I did that with tkinter. I ran, and ran. Then I found wx. I thought it
    wasn't so bad. Then when I looked at tk again, it didn't seem too bad
    either.


    I settled on wx for the following reasons...
    - I needed to settle on something, and pretty soon
    - wx has a native look and feel
    - wx is fast - compiled C++, whereas tkinter is a script. I found it to be
    almost unacceptably slow in some instances.
    - PythonCardPrototype would simplify things even further.

    Rob


  • Gerhard Häring at Sep 18, 2002 at 3:42 pm

    "bap" wrote:
    Does wx work with ActiveState Python?
    Works for me (wxPython 2.3.2.1, Python 2.2.1 from ActiveState, Windows 2000
    SP3).

    -- Gerhard
  • Robin Dunn at Sep 20, 2002 at 3:41 am

    bap wrote:
    Does wx work with ActiveState Python? I tried to use and as soon as
    wxWindows imports, Python (2.2)
    bombs and your back out at Windows with no error message. On another group I
    was
    told that this is a known issue and wxWindows doesn't work with Active State
    Python.
    It has trouble running within the PythonWin GUI, but works just fine
    with the Python interpreter itself.

    --
    Robin Dunn
    Software Craftsman
    http://wxPython.org Java give you jitters? Relax with wxPython!
  • Robin Dunn at Sep 20, 2002 at 2:24 am

    Lee Gray wrote:
    For a newbie, what's easier, Tk or wxWindows?
    I've found that it depends on how your brain is wired. There are some
    people who love Tkinter because it just fits the way they think but just
    can't understand wxPython no matter how much they try. There are other
    folks where the opposite is true, I am one of them and that is the main
    reason wxPython was created.

    --
    Robin Dunn
    Software Craftsman
    http://wxPython.org Java give you jitters? Relax with wxPython!
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 7:28 pm
    Chris Liechti <cliechti at gmx.net> wrote in message news:<Xns928CED692541cliechtigmxnet at 62.2.16.82>...
    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    with python you have to choice of diffrent GUI libs. if you consider
    wxWindows you can play around with the wxPython demo application that comes
    with the download. on the other hand when you support win32 only the
    win32all package has support for all the windows APIs and it has some
    samples that get installed.

    chris
    I've been playing with wxWindows and Boa Constructor. wxWindows is
    pretty darn cool and will make a good demo for him. Boa looks good
    but is still a bit rough (naturally, being alpha), but I'm looking
    forward to future releases.

    Thanks,
    Lee
  • Brueckd at Sep 18, 2002 at 9:05 pm

    On 18 Sep 2002, Lee Gray wrote:

    Chris Liechti <cliechti at gmx.net> wrote in message news:<Xns928CED692541cliechtigmxnet at 62.2.16.82>...
    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com:
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    with python you have to choice of diffrent GUI libs. if you consider
    wxWindows you can play around with the wxPython demo application that comes
    with the download. on the other hand when you support win32 only the
    win32all package has support for all the windows APIs and it has some
    samples that get installed.

    chris
    I've been playing with wxWindows and Boa Constructor. wxWindows is
    pretty darn cool and will make a good demo for him. Boa looks good
    but is still a bit rough (naturally, being alpha), but I'm looking
    forward to future releases.
    wxDesigner is also pretty nice (http://www.roebling.de).

    -Dave
  • Phil Thompson at Sep 17, 2002 at 10:03 pm

    On Tuesday 17 September 2002 10:05 pm, Lee Gray wrote:
    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
    Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
    talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
    I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.

    We're currently looking at .Net, and I'm not very impressed, for a
    variety of reasons. A little research makes me feel that either Java
    or Python would be a good alternative, and given my level of
    experience, I'd much prefer Python over Java. I *think* I could
    actually get up to speed faster with Python than with VB and ASP.Net,
    in spite of my ASP/VBS experience.

    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.

    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?

    It may very well be that .Net is best for me/us, but from what I've
    seen of Python, I *really* like the language and I'd at least like to
    see a good demonstration of a full-blown app before ruling it out.
    (Something along the lines of what I mentioned above would be ideal,
    but not a necessity.)
    http://www.abo.fi/~iporres/Projects/fog0000000023.html

    For SQL based applications PyQt contains a set of data aware widgets. PyQt
    includes an example SQL browser, query, reporter in 180 lines of Python.

    Phil
  • Bap at Sep 17, 2002 at 10:47 pm
    Actually both may be a solution. I've recently had good success at
    developing an with a VB (not .net) front end and doing most of the
    work in Python. Use each for what it's best at. Based on my experience with
    project, I'd say that Python take about 25% of the code of VB to accomplish
    the same objective. Plus Python objects tend to do what is expected so that
    you can often guess at the syntax and be right whereas this is seldom true
    with
    VB objects.

    Lee Gray <lpgray at uop.com> wrote in message
    news:96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com...
    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
    Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
    talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
    I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.

    We're currently looking at .Net, and I'm not very impressed, for a
    variety of reasons. A little research makes me feel that either Java
    or Python would be a good alternative, and given my level of
    experience, I'd much prefer Python over Java. I *think* I could
    actually get up to speed faster with Python than with VB and ASP.Net,
    in spite of my ASP/VBS experience.

    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.

    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?

    It may very well be that .Net is best for me/us, but from what I've
    seen of Python, I *really* like the language and I'd at least like to
    see a good demonstration of a full-blown app before ruling it out.
    (Something along the lines of what I mentioned above would be ideal,
    but not a necessity.)

    Thanks!

    Lee Gray
  • Rob Hall at Sep 18, 2002 at 1:19 am

    Actually both may be a solution. I've recently had good success at
    developing an with a VB (not .net) front end and doing most of the
    work in Python. Use each for what it's best at. Based on my experience with
    project, I'd say that Python take about 25% of the code of VB to
    accomplish
    the same objective. Plus Python objects tend to do what is expected so that
    you can often guess at the syntax and be right whereas this is seldom true
    with
    VB objects.

    Interesting... Can you point me to any links that may give me some pointers
    in doing the same?

    Rob
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:55 am

    Phil Thompson wrote:
    On Tuesday 17 September 2002 10:05 pm, Lee Gray wrote:

    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?
    http://www.abo.fi/~iporres/Projects/fog0000000023.html

    For SQL based applications PyQt contains a set of data aware widgets. PyQt
    includes an example SQL browser, query, reporter in 180 lines of Python.

    Phil
    This looks very interesting!

    Thanks,
    Lee
  • Terry at Sep 18, 2002 at 1:40 am

    ?I'm willing to bet, though, that Python will be around for longer
    than VBScript.
    Cameron,

    I don't like to disagree with an icon, but I think that you are missing
    a deficiency in Python that will ultimatly limit it's usefullness in
    the vast majority of the software that is written in the world.

    As long as Python refuses to admit that money is the focus of most of
    the world's software, Python will be relagated to the same status as
    FORTRAN, BASIC, and etc - except COBOL and VB.

    Is there any way to get the Python world to allow for the processing of
    monetary applications without some hokey 60's constructs that involve
    in-line conversions or anticipations of calculation characteristics?

    Regards,

    terry
  • David LeBlanc at Sep 18, 2002 at 2:08 am
    <snip>
    Is there any way to get the Python world to allow for the processing of
    monetary applications without some hokey 60's constructs that involve
    in-line conversions or anticipations of calculation characteristics?

    Regards,

    terry
    What prevents the creation of a decimal money type? I agree, it would be
    nice if python could do something akin to calculator aritmetic with types
    like scientific (covered) engineering (improper scientific with the exponent
    as a power of 3 and the (oops, forgot the term - mantissa?) more then a
    single digit as in 12.2e3), fixed precision (1..n to the right of the
    decimal). The forthcoming fractions are going to be interesting... (chinese
    interpretation).

    Be nice too if math could do rads, grads and decimal degrees.

    Just my $0.02 worth.

    Dave LeBlanc
    Seattle, WA USA
  • Oren Tirosh at Sep 18, 2002 at 5:29 am

    On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 09:40:34PM -0400, terry wrote:
    As long as Python refuses to admit that money is the focus of most of
    the world's software, Python will be relagated to the same status as
    FORTRAN, BASIC, and etc - except COBOL and VB.

    Is there any way to get the Python world to allow for the processing of
    monetary applications without some hokey 60's constructs that involve
    in-line conversions or anticipations of calculation characteristics?
    I don't understand what exactly you are complaining about but is sounds
    interesting - can you elaborate?

    Oren
  • Mark McEahern at Sep 18, 2002 at 11:25 am
    [Oren Tirosh]
    I don't understand what exactly you are complaining about but is sounds
    interesting - can you elaborate?
    Perhaps the lack of a FixedPoint type?

    // m
    -
  • Skip Montanaro at Sep 18, 2002 at 2:09 am
    Lee> Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    Lee> than IDLE)?

    Lee,

    At IPC 10, Michel Sanner from Scripps took home the best paper award for his
    ViPEr work. References:

    http://www.python10.org/p10-awards.html
    http://www.python10.org/p10-papers/10/index.htm
    http://www.scripps.edu/~sanner/python/viper/index.html

    --
    Skip Montanaro
    skip at pobox.com
    consulting: http://manatee.mojam.com/~skip/resume.html
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 3:20 am

    Skip Montanaro wrote:
    Lee> Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate
    (other Lee> than IDLE)?

    Lee,

    At IPC 10, Michel Sanner from Scripps took home the best paper award for
    his
    ViPEr work. References:

    http://www.python10.org/p10-awards.html
    http://www.python10.org/p10-papers/10/index.htm
    http://www.scripps.edu/~sanner/python/viper/index.html
    Very nice! Thanks for the ref.

    Lee
  • Terry at Sep 18, 2002 at 4:47 am

    Dave LeBlanc wrote:
    What prevents the creation of a decimal money type?
    Absolutely nothing! And it has been done - sort of.

    The problem involves the resultant code to implement a business
    application. In the simple situation, all the developer has to do is
    be aware on <every> calculation what specific type of variables are
    being used ( integers for quantities, reals for percentages, etc...)
    and what the result 'should' be - and then apply the appropriate
    conditioning to the variables in the calculation and to the result.
    You can surely contemplate the variability in programming styles and
    implementations that this generates - most of which flies in the face
    of the simplicity and readability promised by Python. Contrast that
    with the following VB code: Amount = Qty * UnitPrice

    The more difficult problem arises when faced with a true quality
    assurance environment. The amount of validation rises exponentially
    when the calculations in a program are implementation specific, as
    opposed to language intrinsics. Each calculation must be tested at the
    limits of each of the variables involved - at each instance.

    The quick reply to your observation is: Yes, anything is possible -
    but is forcing a language into an environment to which it is not
    intrinsicly suited a reasonable approach? All of the databases, that
    Python can easily talk to, have a form of monetary data type. But when
    those table fields are represented in Python (as well as some other
    languages) they become a burden.

    I think Python needs to incorporate an intrinsic data type that
    monetary (as well as other decimal data types) can be represented by,
    so that the above equation yields results consistent with the decimal
    places of the input variables. This cannot be accomplished with
    real/floats, and shouldn't be accomplished with overlays on integer or
    character variable types. Python needs this data type, that is not
    hardware oriented, to become truly mainstream and be a threat to VB.

    I say this with all due respect to all the other positive attributes of
    Python and it's flexibility to solve a myriad of other non-business
    application problems.

    terry
  • Alex Martelli at Sep 18, 2002 at 6:59 am
    David LeBlanc wrote:
    ...
    What prevents the creation of a decimal money type? I agree, it would be
    Nothing prevents it. In particular, nothing prevents implementing such
    a type in Python itself. There are various implementations of decimal
    numbers around, including one (not sure how mature and complete) that
    meets the standards for decimal arithmetic behavior (as per the IBM Rexx
    implementation). It seems to me a relatively simple problem, compared
    with many others that are routinely solved by Python programmers. If
    there's no single "best of breed" Currency extension that dominates the
    scene (as, for example, Lemburg's mxDateTime dominates the date-time
    handling scene) I suspect it must be because of a lack of demand, strange
    as it may seem. Defining new types is SO easy...

    So prove my suspicion wrong: pick an almost-there implementation,
    complete it per your specs, release it, and see it take over the
    world. How much effort can it be...?
    nice if python could do something akin to calculator aritmetic with types
    like scientific (covered) engineering (improper scientific with the
    exponent as a power of 3 and the (oops, forgot the term - mantissa?) more
    That's just an issue of display, isn't it? Computations are just the
    same whether the calculator is set to always display exponents as a
    power of three, or not -- at least, that's how I recall my calculator
    worked: a single button switched display mode from scientific to
    engineering and back, but all numbers in the calculator's stack and
    registers were supremely unaffected by it.
    then a single digit as in 12.2e3), fixed precision (1..n to the right of
    the decimal). The forthcoming fractions are going to be interesting...
    (chinese interpretation).
    If by "fractions" you mean Rationals, that's another thing yet.

    Be nice too if math could do rads, grads and decimal degrees.
    That's a completely different issue: math is a module, not a type.
    In this case, what you want is simply a different module that wraps
    math and multiplies/divides some arguments or results by appropriate
    conversion factors. Still a pretty modest programming effort (all
    of, what, 10 minutes...?). Modifying the math module to behave this
    way upon some switch set in it should not be much more.

    Just my $0.02 worth.
    If you really think, just to take a simple example, that having
    a sin function that accepts degrees rather than radians is
    important for Python, why not just take the 10 minutes to
    implement that (or 20 minutes, if you're keep to modify rather
    than wrap the math module) and thus prove I'm wrong in suspecting
    that such a project would be pretty much useless...?

    I'll even volunteer to perform the programming part of the task
    (not a huge commitment:-) if you undertake to deal with testing,
    documentation, and advocacy (to get it widely used, and in the
    long run to get it into the core by popular demand).


    Alex
  • Fred Pacquier at Sep 18, 2002 at 7:20 am

    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) said :

    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
    Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
    talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
    I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.
    We're currently looking at .Net, and I'm not very impressed, for a
    variety of reasons. A little research makes me feel that either Java
    or Python would be a good alternative, and given my level of
    experience, I'd much prefer Python over Java. I *think* I could
    actually get up to speed faster with Python than with VB and ASP.Net,
    in spite of my ASP/VBS experience.
    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?
    In addition to what's already been suggested, you may want to look at the
    "samples" (demos) in the PythonCard distribution. They're small apps, but
    quite demonstrative, especially considering the size of the code and ease
    of use :

    http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/

    Of course, PythonCard is based on wxPython, and that has a nice showcase
    demo suite as well.

    Finally, a nice (very VB-like) IDE for wxPython is Boa Constructor,
    although you'll need to pull the matest version from CVS :

    http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/

    HTH,
    fp
  • G. Willoughby at Sep 18, 2002 at 11:43 am

    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?
    I wrote a GUI interface to another python console app to create maps for an
    online game by reading the installed in-game graphics, 3D model and terrain
    data, see it here:

    http://www.thecalm.fsnet.co.uk/MapperGUI

    --G. Willoughby
  • Alan James Salmoni at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:07 pm
    Lee,

    I don't know if this is the kind of thing you are looking for, but I've
    written an application for statistical analysis (the scientific kind)
    which is available for download from http://salstat.sunsite.dk
    (screenshots are available too). It's GPL'd, but rather new so there are
    still some rough edges. The GUI was written using wxPython (absolutely
    fantastic IMHO - the learning curve is a bit steep to begin with, but
    shallows extremely quickly). Features:

    * A spreadsheet like grid for data entry/display
    * A html display window for the output of the analysis and the online
    help pages
    * Custom dialog boxes for each set of analyses
    * Standard dialogs (file open/save and font choser)
    * The GUI took a few weeks to write part-time and that was from scratch
    while learning wxPython. And I'm a psychologist, not a programmer, which
    means you will probably be up to speed in much less time ;).
    * A windows installer containing all the required program (ie, non-icon
    or help) files for a Windows box in one file (using the McMillan installer)
    * Cross-platform capability - Windows, Linux and OSX (the OSX wasn't
    even planned - it just happened to work!)

    Have fun!

    Alan.

    Lee Gray wrote:
    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
    Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
    talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
    I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.

    We're currently looking at .Net, and I'm not very impressed, for a
    variety of reasons. A little research makes me feel that either Java
    or Python would be a good alternative, and given my level of
    experience, I'd much prefer Python over Java. I *think* I could
    actually get up to speed faster with Python than with VB and ASP.Net,
    in spite of my ASP/VBS experience.

    My boss is pretty open-minded, but also needs to see something working
    to be convinced Python is even a viable platform (he had never heard
    of it). Otherwise, .Net is a given, whether it's any good or not,
    since corporate is MS all the way.

    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?

    It may very well be that .Net is best for me/us, but from what I've
    seen of Python, I *really* like the language and I'd at least like to
    see a good demonstration of a full-blown app before ruling it out.
    (Something along the lines of what I mentioned above would be ideal,
    but not a necessity.)

    Thanks!

    Lee Gray
  • Jerome Alet at Sep 18, 2002 at 12:19 pm

    Lee Gray wrote:
    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML.
    Other than small utilities, so far I've mostly written ASP apps to
    talk to an Oracle database on HP/UX, with Windows NT/2000 clients, and
    I've done maintenance work on VB and Oracle Forms apps.
    Perhaps this is really silly, but why don't you show Zope to your boss ?

    http://www.zope.org/

    not really a GUI, though

    hth

    Jerome Alet
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 7:24 pm
    Jerome Alet <alet at unice.fr> wrote in message news:<3D886F3D.9AE251F9 at unice.fr>...
    Perhaps this is really silly, but why don't you show Zope to your boss ?

    http://www.zope.org/

    not really a GUI, though

    hth

    Jerome Alet
    I've heard of, but know nothing about Zope. I don't think it's really
    applicable. I need a client GUI app to have him get the feel of
    what's possible; and the back-end (Oracle DB) isn't going to change.

    Thanks though,
    Lee
  • Alex Martelli at Sep 18, 2002 at 2:12 pm

    Mark McEahern wrote:

    [Oren Tirosh]
    I don't understand what exactly you are complaining about but is sounds
    interesting - can you elaborate?
    Perhaps the lack of a FixedPoint type?
    http://starship.python.net/crew/aahz/FixedPoint.py


    Alex
  • Aahz at Sep 18, 2002 at 4:02 pm
    In article <2R%h9.109893$ub2.2324479 at news1.tin.it>,
    Alex Martelli wrote:
    Mark McEahern wrote:
    [Oren Tirosh]
    I don't understand what exactly you are complaining about but is sounds
    interesting - can you elaborate?
    Perhaps the lack of a FixedPoint type?
    http://starship.python.net/crew/aahz/FixedPoint.py
    Note that FixedPoint is *not* BCD, particularly IEEE-854 BCD. But it's
    probably more than good enough for most applications, and it's extremely
    trustworthy. Right now, I've been stalled for many moons on my BCD
    module. But it's still on my list....
    --
    Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/
  • Jason petrone at Sep 18, 2002 at 4:04 pm

    Lee Gray wrote:
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?
    You could bring him the Star Wars: Episode II DVD:
    http://www.python.org/Quotes.html

    A few other polished programs written in python:

    Visual Python: http://www.activestate.com/Products/Visual_Python/
    PySol: http://www.oberhumer.com/opensource/pysol/
    Sketch: http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
    Grail: http://grail.sourceforge.net/

    Visual Python probably has the prettiest screenshot.

    Jason
  • Magnus Lyckå at Sep 20, 2002 at 10:37 am

    jason petrone wrote:
    A few other polished programs written in python:

    Visual Python: http://www.activestate.com/Products/Visual_Python/ ...
    Visual Python probably has the prettiest screenshot.
    Stop there! Visual Python is a python plugin for Microsoft
    Visual Studio, right? So what you see is Visual Studio,
    which is AFAIK written in C++ with MFC. Or am I in deep
    waters here? I think it's written _for_ python, not _in_
    python.
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 7:50 pm
    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) wrote in message news:<96904b50.0209171305.6d65f574 at posting.google.com>...
    I'm a fairly new programmer with experience in ASP/VBScript/DHTML. [...]
    Can someone point me to a good Python GUI app to demonstrate (other
    than IDLE)?
    Thanks for all the suggestions, folks!

    I've collected lots of links to a variety of very nice screenshots,
    and I've been playing with the wxWindows demo and Boa Constructor. Boa
    was a bit disappointing, not as an app, but because of its current
    alpha status - but it's got great potential and I'll definitely look
    forward to future releases. I'll check out PythonCard too.

    Regarding .Net AND Python, that's certainly a possibility down the
    road, but unfortunately I don't have the time to devote to learning
    both at the moment, and if we definitely go .Net, no one (besides me)
    is going to see any value in adding Python.

    Thanks again... and feel free to send more ideas!
    Lee
  • Christian Tismer at Sep 18, 2002 at 8:14 pm
    Lee Gray wrote:
    ...
    Thanks for all the suggestions, folks!

    I've collected lots of links to a variety of very nice screenshots,
    and I've been playing with the wxWindows demo and Boa Constructor. Boa
    was a bit disappointing, not as an app, but because of its current
    alpha status - but it's got great potential and I'll definitely look
    forward to future releases. I'll check out PythonCard too.
    Boa is in fact quite a bit alpha-ish, but after you're
    used to the quirks and limitations, it is really great.
    Also note that you should use the version from CVS
    which is *far* more developed than the downloadable.

    I've written a quite big wizard for 3D image processing
    with wxPython, PIL, Stackless. If you like, I can prepare
    some screen shots.

    ciao - chris
    --
    Christian Tismer :^) <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
    Mission Impossible 5oftware : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's
    Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9a : *Starship* http://starship.python.net/
    14109 Berlin : PGP key -> http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/
    work +49 30 89 09 53 34 home +49 30 802 86 56 pager +49 173 24 18 776
    PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
    whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/
  • Fred Pacquier at Sep 19, 2002 at 11:47 am

    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) said :

    Thanks for all the suggestions, folks!

    I've collected lots of links to a variety of very nice screenshots,
    and I've been playing with the wxWindows demo and Boa Constructor. Boa
    was a bit disappointing, not as an app, but because of its current
    alpha status - but it's got great potential and I'll definitely look
    forward to future releases. I'll check out PythonCard too.
    This just in : the Python Daily URL (http://www.pythonware.com/daily/)
    mentions this collection of classes and tools for UML modeling and
    programming. I don't understand it all, but the sceenshot of the graphical
    model editor sure is a killer :-)

    http://www.abo.fi/~iporres/Projects/fog0000000023.html
  • Lee Gray at Sep 19, 2002 at 11:38 pm

    Fred Pacquier wrote:

    lpgray at uop.com (Lee Gray) said :
    Thanks for all the suggestions, folks!

    I've collected lots of links to a variety of very nice screenshots,
    and I've been playing with the wxWindows demo and Boa Constructor. Boa
    was a bit disappointing, not as an app, but because of its current
    alpha status - but it's got great potential and I'll definitely look
    forward to future releases. I'll check out PythonCard too.
    This just in : the Python Daily URL (http://www.pythonware.com/daily/)
    mentions this collection of classes and tools for UML modeling and
    programming. I don't understand it all, but the sceenshot of the graphical
    model editor sure is a killer :-)

    http://www.abo.fi/~iporres/Projects/fog0000000023.html
    Hehe... yep, that was one of 'em I bookmarked.

    Lee
  • Rob Hall at Sep 20, 2002 at 2:31 am
    Hi.
    I've written a quite big wizard for 3D image processing
    with wxPython, PIL, Stackless.
    I wouldn't mind a look - whats the address for your wizzard?

    Rob
  • Gray, Lee P. at Sep 18, 2002 at 8:35 pm
    (Sorry for the screwed up quoting... I have to use Outlook at work.
    :( )
    From: Christian Tismer [SMTP:tismer at tismer.com]
    Sent: September 18, 2002 3:14 PM
    To: Lee Gray
    Cc: python-list at python.org
    Subject: Re: Python GUI app to impress the boss?

    Boa is in fact quite a bit alpha-ish, but after you're
    used to the quirks and limitations, it is really great.
    Also note that you should use the version from CVS
    which is *far* more developed than the downloadable.

    I've written a quite big wizard for 3D image processing
    with wxPython, PIL, Stackless. If you like, I can prepare
    some screen shots.
    [Gray, Lee P.] ---------------
    Yeah, I tried to download from CVS, but being a complete noob
    couldn't figure out how, short of tracking down and copying and pasting
    every updated file. Any tips would be appreciated.

    Yes, I'd definitely like to see your screenshots.

    Thanks,
    Lee
  • Chris Liechti at Sep 18, 2002 at 9:54 pm
    "Gray, Lee P." <lpgray at UOP.com> wrote in
    news:mailman.1032381445.13579.python-list at python.org:
    Boa is in fact quite a bit alpha-ish, but after you're
    used to the quirks and limitations, it is really great.
    Also note that you should use the version from CVS
    which is *far* more developed than the downloadable.
    Yeah, I tried to download from CVS, but being a complete noob
    couldn't figure out how, short of tracking down and copying and pasting
    every updated file. Any tips would be appreciated.
    you're on windows right? then grab http://tortoisecvs.sf.net and install
    the latest version. after that right click on an empty folder in the
    windows explorer and select "cvs checkout", copy and paste the "CVSROOT" in
    the dialog. you can find the cvsroot, or at least how it looks like on the
    "browse cvs" page that you have apparently found.

    the home of cvs is http://www.cvshome.org and these are interesting sites:
    http://www.loria.fr/~molli/cvs-index.html, http://cvsbook.red-bean.com/

    chris

    --
    Chris <cliechti at gmx.net>
  • Lee Gray at Sep 18, 2002 at 11:10 pm

    Chris Liechti wrote:

    "Gray, Lee P." <lpgray at UOP.com> wrote in
    Yeah, I tried to download from CVS, but being a complete noob
    couldn't figure out how, short of tracking down and copying and pasting
    every updated file. Any tips would be appreciated.
    you're on windows right? then grab http://tortoisecvs.sf.net and install
    the latest version. after that right click on an empty folder in the
    windows explorer and select "cvs checkout", copy and paste the "CVSROOT"
    in the dialog. you can find the cvsroot, or at least how it looks like on
    the "browse cvs" page that you have apparently found.

    the home of cvs is http://www.cvshome.org and these are interesting sites:
    http://www.loria.fr/~molli/cvs-index.html, http://cvsbook.red-bean.com/
    Yep, Windows at work, mostly Linux at home. I'll check this out at work
    tomorrow.

    Thanks for the info!
    Lee

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