I just want to make sure others know that Georg has warned Anatoly that if
he continues to re-open a specific issue he will lose his tracker
privileges (http://bugs.python.org/issue19822#msg204696). I stand behind
his warning and will support anyone who enforces it. I would suggest that
if he does this to *any* other issue that he be warned that flipping
*any *fields
after a core dev has made a decision and without discussing it first will
also lead to his loss of privileges.


I would also like to point out his attitude is still horrible at times;
being accused of spreading "ill FUD policies in favor of creating [a]
collaborative environment" is not exactly polite (
http://bugs.python.org/issue19826#msg204693).
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  • Christian Heimes at Nov 29, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    Am 29.11.2013 16:04, schrieb Brett Cannon:
    I just want to make sure others know that Georg has warned Anatoly
    that if he continues to re-open a specific issue he will lose his
    tracker privileges (http://bugs.python.org/issue19822#msg204696). I
    stand behind his warning and will support anyone who enforces it. I
    would suggest that if he does this to *any* other issue that he be
    warned that flipping *any *fields after a core dev has made a
    decision and without discussing it first will also lead to his loss
    of privileges.

    I second the motion!
  • Eli Bendersky at Nov 29, 2013 at 5:45 pm
    Brett, +1 from me. But I suggest we wait for Guido to express his opinion
    before taking any action. In a recent private correspondence with Christian
    (and myself CCd) Guido expressed reluctance to act against Anatoly at this
    time.


    Eli




    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 7:04 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

    I just want to make sure others know that Georg has warned Anatoly that if
    he continues to re-open a specific issue he will lose his tracker
    privileges (http://bugs.python.org/issue19822#msg204696). I stand behind
    his warning and will support anyone who enforces it. I would suggest that
    if he does this to *any* other issue that he be warned that flipping
    *any *fields after a core dev has made a decision and without discussing
    it first will also lead to his loss of privileges.

    I would also like to point out his attitude is still horrible at times;
    being accused of spreading "ill FUD policies in favor of creating [a]
    collaborative environment" is not exactly polite (
    http://bugs.python.org/issue19826#msg204693).

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
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  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:14 pm
    Have you read the latest on the python-dev thread? Several other people are
    now also complaining. The only thing that makes sense to me is nothing --
    banning Anatoly now is just going to cause a PR disaster. Not responding at
    all will most likely cause it to blow over (surely they will collectively
    make fools of themselves, and Anatoly's post is the closest to trolling
    from him yet). I'll add some pointers to the peps repo README file so we
    can close that issue properly as well.




    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:45 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:

    Brett, +1 from me. But I suggest we wait for Guido to express his opinion
    before taking any action. In a recent private correspondence with Christian
    (and myself CCd) Guido expressed reluctance to act against Anatoly at this
    time.

    Eli

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 7:04 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:

    I just want to make sure others know that Georg has warned Anatoly that
    if he continues to re-open a specific issue he will lose his tracker
    privileges (http://bugs.python.org/issue19822#msg204696). I stand behind
    his warning and will support anyone who enforces it. I would suggest that
    if he does this to *any* other issue that he be warned that flipping
    *any *fields after a core dev has made a decision and without discussing
    it first will also lead to his loss of privileges.

    I would also like to point out his attitude is still horrible at times;
    being accused of spreading "ill FUD policies in favor of creating [a]
    collaborative environment" is not exactly polite (
    http://bugs.python.org/issue19826#msg204693).

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers



    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Tim Peters at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:22 pm
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try it ;-)
  • Georg Brandl at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:41 pm

    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try it ;-)

    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his issues, or they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.


    Georg
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:56 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:


    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try it
    ;-)

    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his issues, or
    they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.

    Plenty of issues do rot there, it doesn't bother me much. If you don't want
    to triage Anatoly's issues, don't; maybe someone else (Mark Lawrence? :-)
    will.


    The key thing to understand here is that you can't win an argument with
    Anatoly. You can only avoid *getting* into one.


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 29, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 10:56 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:
    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for
    me - try it ;-)


    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his
    issues, or they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.


    Plenty of issues do rot there, it doesn't bother me much. If you don't
    want to triage Anatoly's issues, don't; maybe someone else (Mark
    Lawrence? :-) will.

    The real problem with trolls in an open community is that there'll
    always be new people to fall in their traps. We may not pay attention
    anymore, but other people will.


    Here's a small recap:


    - Anatoly has repeatably hostile rhetorics towards core development and
    the contribution process


    - he refuses to abide by some of our (rather lax, IMHO) contribution
    rules (e.g. CLA)


    - he continuously veers into meta-discourse (complaining about the
    development process)


    - he always rehashes the same obsessions


    - he was warned about his behaviour and acknowledges that his
    interaction is not satisfactory


    - he nevertheless refuses to change his behaviour


    - his behaviour has spawned several distinct threads over the time here
    at python-committers, purely about him and nothing else (i.e. it's not a
    hidden systemic issue)


    - his behaviour has been going on for years


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 7:40 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 10:56 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Georg Brandl <g.brandl@gmx.net>
    wrote:
    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for
    me - try it ;-)


    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his
    issues, or they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.


    Plenty of issues do rot there, it doesn't bother me much. If you don't
    want to triage Anatoly's issues, don't; maybe someone else (Mark
    Lawrence? :-) will.
    The real problem with trolls in an open community is that there'll
    always be new people to fall in their traps. We may not pay attention
    anymore, but other people will.

    Here's a small recap:

    - Anatoly has repeatably hostile rhetorics towards core development and
    the contribution process

    - he refuses to abide by some of our (rather lax, IMHO) contribution
    rules (e.g. CLA)

    - he continuously veers into meta-discourse (complaining about the
    development process)

    - he always rehashes the same obsessions

    - he was warned about his behaviour and acknowledges that his
    interaction is not satisfactory

    - he nevertheless refuses to change his behaviour

    - his behaviour has spawned several distinct threads over the time here
    at python-committers, purely about him and nothing else (i.e. it's not a
    hidden systemic issue)

    - his behaviour has been going on for years

    I would add to this list that he is a really bad communicator. His English
    grammar is so random that I often can't figure out what he is saying (*),
    and he is either extremely terse or extremely verbose.


    If you can get a majority of the committers to vote to ban him we should do
    it -- but that's a high bar (many committers probably don't care enough to
    vote).


    __________
    (*) The PEP process bug was an example -- I couldn't tell if he was asking
    "what is the process" or suggesting "please add a pointer to a description
    of the process to the peps repo README.txt" or trying to propose an
    alternative process.


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 29, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 11:40 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    If you can get a majority of the committers to vote to ban him we
    should do it -- but that's a high bar (many committers probably don't
    care enough to vote).

    Well, many are probably inactive enough to not even notice this
    discussion :-) I'm not sure about the authoritative source, but the SSH
    keys repository shows 178 people with access rights. The majority of
    them isn't probably active nowadays.


    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...


    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him
    reopening the issue would lead to loss of posting rights, which implies
    he is sensitive to this kind of signals)


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 8:05 pm
    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the lists(*)
    and tell him that to be unbanned he has to talk to me, and to me only. I
    will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting guidelines with him. If
    he violate those he will automatically be banned permanently (or at least
    for a year).


    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there any other
    lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all lists on mail python.org just so
    he won't take his complaints to other lists.




    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 11:40 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:

    If you can get a majority of the committers to vote to ban him we
    should do it -- but that's a high bar (many committers probably don't
    care enough to vote).
    Well, many are probably inactive enough to not even notice this
    discussion :-) I'm not sure about the authoritative source, but the SSH
    keys repository shows 178 people with access rights. The majority of
    them isn't probably active nowadays.

    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him
    reopening the issue would lead to loss of posting rights, which implies
    he is sensitive to this kind of signals)

    Regards

    Antoine.


    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers





    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Christian Heimes at Nov 29, 2013 at 8:07 pm

    Am 29.11.2013 21:05, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the
    lists(*) and tell him that to be unbanned he has to talk to me, and
    to me only. I will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting
    guidelines with him. If he violate those he will automatically be
    banned permanently (or at least for a year).

    Thanks a lot for your mediating role. :)

    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there
    any other lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all lists on mail
    python.org <http://python.org> just so he won't take his complaints
    to other lists.

    python-legal and python-infrastructure, too.


    Christian
  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 29, 2013 at 8:50 pm

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 21:07 +0100, Christian Heimes wrote:
    Am 29.11.2013 21:05, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the
    lists(*) and tell him that to be unbanned he has to talk to me, and
    to me only. I will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting
    guidelines with him. If he violate those he will automatically be
    banned permanently (or at least for a year).
    Thanks a lot for your mediating role. :)
    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there
    any other lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all lists on mail
    python.org <http://python.org> just so he won't take his complaints
    to other lists.
    python-legal and python-infrastructure, too.

    +1 from me. This sounds like a good solution (except for giving you more
    work, Guido :-)).


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Ethan Furman at Nov 29, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    On 11/29/2013 12:05 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the lists(*) and tell him that to be unbanned he has to
    talk to me, and to me only. I will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting guidelines with him. If he violate those
    he will automatically be banned permanently (or at least for a year).

    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there any other lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all
    lists on mail python.org <http://python.org> just so he won't take his complaints to other lists.

    +1 for the temp ban, then one year if he doesn't cool off.


    +1 for all Python lists.


    Thanks, Guido.


    --
    ~Ethan~
  • Eli Bendersky at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:57 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:


    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the lists(*)
    and tell him that to be unbanned he has to talk to me, and to me only. I
    will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting guidelines with him. If
    he violate those he will automatically be banned permanently (or at least
    for a year).

    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there any other
    lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all lists on mail python.org just so
    he won't take his complaints to other lists.
    This idea sounds good to me. If you don't mind the extra work, Guido, +1


    Eli







    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 11:40 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:

    If you can get a majority of the committers to vote to ban him we
    should do it -- but that's a high bar (many committers probably don't
    care enough to vote).
    Well, many are probably inactive enough to not even notice this
    discussion :-) I'm not sure about the authoritative source, but the SSH
    keys repository shows 178 people with access rights. The majority of
    them isn't probably active nowadays.

    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him
    reopening the issue would lead to loss of posting rights, which implies
    he is sensitive to this kind of signals)

    Regards

    Antoine.


    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
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  • Eli Bendersky at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:59 pm
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:57 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:


    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

    Here's another idea. Ban him temporarily from the tracker and the
    lists(*) and tell him that to be unbanned he has to talk to me, and to me
    only. I will then negotiate a cool-off period and posting guidelines with
    him. If he violate those he will automatically be banned permanently (or at
    least for a year).

    (*) Which lists? I'd say python-dev and python-idea -- are there any
    other lists where he hangs out? Or perhaps all lists on mail python.orgjust so he won't take his complaints to other lists.
    This idea sounds good to me. If you don't mind the extra work, Guido, +1

    Oh, I forgot to add that if Anatoly's contacted off-lists about this and
    the conditions (per Guido's outline) are clearly explained, I don't see how
    this can become a PR disaster. FWIW, python-committers is a list with
    publicly visible archives - it's very easy to see this whole discussion and
    how much though the core devs have put into this (including previous
    discussions mentioning Anatoly).


    Eli

















    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 11:40 -0800, Guido van Rossum wrote:

    If you can get a majority of the committers to vote to ban him we
    should do it -- but that's a high bar (many committers probably don't
    care enough to vote).
    Well, many are probably inactive enough to not even notice this
    discussion :-) I'm not sure about the authoritative source, but the SSH
    keys repository shows 178 people with access rights. The majority of
    them isn't probably active nowadays.

    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him
    reopening the issue would lead to loss of posting rights, which implies
    he is sensitive to this kind of signals)

    Regards

    Antoine.


    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
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  • Terry Reedy at Nov 29, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    On 11/29/2013 2:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:


    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him

    I think an appropriate first signal would be to make it so he cannot
    change headers. Either a general rule (committer or cla signer) or
    specific to him. "You do not have permission to perform this action." To
    me, re-opening issues is about the most directly obnoxious thing he
    does. It would remove what seems to be an irresistible temtation for him
    and in that sense, would be doing him a favor.

    reopening the issue would lead to loss of posting rights, which implies
    he is sensitive to this kind of signals)

    Terry
  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 30, 2013 at 12:17 am

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 18:11 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
    On 11/29/2013 2:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list...

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him
    I think an appropriate first signal would be to make it so he cannot
    change headers.

    I wasn't thinking only about the bug tracker, but also the MLs.


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Terry Reedy at Nov 30, 2013 at 1:01 am

    On 11/29/2013 7:17 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 18:11 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
    On 11/29/2013 2:59 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    Then I don't know where his behaviour is most problematic: on the
    tracker or the MLs?
    If we only ban him from the tracker, I'm afraid he'll start making
    "here's an issue I can't post on the tracker because I'm banned" posts
    on the mailing-list.

    I would not be surprised if he did exactly that, which is why I (and a
    couple of other people) are suggesting something less than a ban.

    Perhaps a temporary ban? There does need to be a signal sent to him.
    (apparently, he stopped reopening the issue when Georg told him

    He stopped reopening other issues before, but then there was this new
    issue ... and it is reasonable to think there will be again as things
    stand now.

    I think an appropriate first signal would be to make it so he cannot
    change headers.
    I wasn't thinking only about the bug tracker, but also the MLs.

    Right, you are worried about retaliation on the MLs if he were *banned*
    from the tracker.


    My belief and point is that removing header editing privileges
    (permanently, by the way) is


    * a minimal action that we should be able to mostly agree on;
    * not something that most people would consider to be a 'right';
    * an *action*, not a *warning* (of which there have been many), which
    would demonstrate that we *are* collectively capable of action (which at
    some level I suspect he doubts), and which would make the possibility of
    more severe action more credible;
    * not a 'ban', which is a more contentious action;
    * not something that would preclude more severe action.


    Terry
  • Brett Cannon at Nov 29, 2013 at 7:34 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:

    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try
    it ;-)

    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his issues, or
    they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.
    Plenty of issues do rot there, it doesn't bother me much. If you don't
    want to triage Anatoly's issues, don't; maybe someone else (Mark Lawrence?
    :-) will.

    Maybe, but not the issues for stuff some of us are heavily invested in. If
    he starts to file importlib bugs I am going to triage them because I try to
    close all importlib bugs. I try to at least triage the ast issues as well
    which is where I have been bumping up against him as of late. The idea of
    having to change how I and others triage bugs because of one individual
    seems like the wrong cost/benefit ratio for dealing with the problem.



    The key thing to understand here is that you can't win an argument with
    Anatoly. You can only avoid *getting* into one.

    I'm sure you have developed skills at ignoring people based on the amount
    of unsolicited communication sent your way as BDFL. But the rest of us
    really only have to put up with this consistently with a single individual.
    I know you're worried about some PR problem, but this isn't some knee jerk
    reaction but a multi-year issue that everyone has sustained. And this
    slowly leaks into everything because new people come, try to participate
    with him, and then get the negative consequences of that which becomes a
    low, simmering PR problem of its own that we are not more welcoming and
    tolerate rude individuals.


    If someone turns away from the community because we decided we didn't want
    someone who is rude participating and ruining the experience for others
    then I'm fine with losing that person's participation just like anyone who
    chooses not to come to PyCon because we have a CoC (they can still use
    Python, they can just choose to not participate in the community). But if
    we lose a single individual because they didn't like someone being rude to
    them or others then that is a loss I don't want to see. Once again, the
    cost/benefit ratio of everyone as a group having to ignore a single
    troublemaker does not seem like the best solution.


    If you want to go with ignoring him, then that's fine. But to go along with
    that, I think it's reasonable to actively tell others who are new to not
    engage him if they start to in order to spare them the stress and
    aggravation and potentially losing their participation, otherwise how are
    they to know that this is not normal community behaviour and that he holds
    no sway? I do not want to continue to feel sorry for people who happen to
    reply to one person's emails knowing full well there was something I could
    do about it.
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  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 8:12 pm
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:


    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:

    Am 29.11.2013 19:22, schrieb Tim Peters:
    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try
    it ;-)

    It's a nice option, I agree -- but someone has to triage his issues, or
    they
    will rot in the tracker for eternity.
    Plenty of issues do rot there, it doesn't bother me much. If you don't
    want to triage Anatoly's issues, don't; maybe someone else (Mark Lawrence?
    :-) will.
    Maybe, but not the issues for stuff some of us are heavily invested in. If
    he starts to file importlib bugs I am going to triage them because I try to
    close all importlib bugs. I try to at least triage the ast issues as well
    which is where I have been bumping up against him as of late. The idea of
    having to change how I and others triage bugs because of one individual
    seems like the wrong cost/benefit ratio for dealing with the problem.

    The question is, how effective will the alternative solution (banning him)
    be? I worry that it's just going to make things worse.



    The key thing to understand here is that you can't win an argument with
    Anatoly. You can only avoid *getting* into one.
    I'm sure you have developed skills at ignoring people based on the amount
    of unsolicited communication sent your way as BDFL. But the rest of us
    really only have to put up with this consistently with a single individual.
    I know you're worried about some PR problem, but this isn't some knee jerk
    reaction but a multi-year issue that everyone has sustained. And this
    slowly leaks into everything because new people come, try to participate
    with him, and then get the negative consequences of that which becomes a
    low, simmering PR problem of its own that we are not more welcoming and
    tolerate rude individuals.

    Do you have examples of new people engaging him? I mostly see him engaged
    by old-timers or other known "difficult" users (Kristjan, Mark Lawrence).


    I guess I haven't managed to teach you all well enough how to do this.
    Honestly it's not easy. :-(



    If someone turns away from the community because we decided we didn't want
    someone who is rude participating and ruining the experience for others
    then I'm fine with losing that person's participation just like anyone who
    chooses not to come to PyCon because we have a CoC (they can still use
    Python, they can just choose to not participate in the community). But if
    we lose a single individual because they didn't like someone being rude to
    them or others then that is a loss I don't want to see. Once again, the
    cost/benefit ratio of everyone as a group having to ignore a single
    troublemaker does not seem like the best solution.

    Again, I haven't seen Anatoly interfere with others. I imagine that most
    people seeing his posts will recognize him as the nutcase he is.

    If you want to go with ignoring him, then that's fine. But to go along
    with that, I think it's reasonable to actively tell others who are new to
    not engage him if they start to in order to spare them the stress and
    aggravation and potentially losing their participation, otherwise how are
    they to know that this is not normal community behaviour and that he holds
    no sway? I do not want to continue to feel sorry for people who happen to
    reply to one person's emails knowing full well there was something I could
    do about it.

    When I see this kind of thing happen to people who have already contributed
    positively but haven't been around long enough to recognize specific trolls
    I usually send them an off-line message suggesting to ignore the troll.
    This happens a few times a year, and it's not just Anatoly.




    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Ned Deily at Nov 29, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    On Nov 29, 2013, at 12:12 , Guido van Rossum wrote:


    The question is, how effective will the alternative solution (banning him) be? I worry that it's just going to make things worse.

    I think that is a legitimate concern and likely outcome.

    The key thing to understand here is that you can't win an argument with Anatoly. You can only avoid *getting* into one.

    Right. We can't change other people's behavior. We can at best encourage change. In this case, I'm doubtful that banning would serve as an encouragement. I understand the many of us get annoyed and frustrated by his comments and the multiple re-opening of the tracker issue thing the other day was certainly uncalled-for behavior on his part. But it was likely fueled in part by people's reaction to his comments. I think the more important issue here is not his behavior but our behavior in how we react to behavior like this. *That* is something we can reasonably try to change. Why is it that we find him so annoying, enough to advocate fairly drastic measures like banning? There have been and will be others who behave similarly. I don't propose to try to answer that question: it's one that each of us will have our own answer to.


    But taking the active step of banning could become additional fuel. Since he has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to ignore the advice and admonitions of others in our communities, it seems to me that a quite reasonable response is to, in turn, ignore him and just not engage with him. Comparing his behavior to some of the recent, on-going cases of wildly inappropriate behavior on python-list (not involving Anatoly), I think it would be hard to justify to the world banning Anatoly for his relatively minor annoyances when it took so long to do something about one help vampire whose behavior and the community's reaction severely damaged its atmosphere and really did scare new people away. (Yes, there are other important differences but this is about perceptions.)

    I guess I haven't managed to teach you all well enough how to do this. Honestly it's not easy. :-(

    It's not but it is an important skill.

    When I see this kind of thing happen to people who have already contributed positively but haven't been around long enough to recognize specific trolls I usually send them an off-line message suggesting to ignore the troll. This happens a few times a year, and it's not just Anatoly.

    Sound like exactly the right thing to do.


    --
       Ned Deily
       nad at acm.org -- []
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 9:37 pm
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
    [bunch of stuff I agree with :-)]

    I think it would be hard to justify to the world banning Anatoly for his
    relatively minor annoyances when it took so long to do something about one
    help vampire whose behavior and the community's reaction severely damaged
    its atmosphere and really did scare new people away.

    This led me to look up "help vampire" which led me to a wiki on the topic
    of community management. Here's a sample link:
    http://communitymgt.wikia.com/wiki/RTFM


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • M.-A. Lemburg at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    On 29.11.2013 22:37, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
    [bunch of stuff I agree with :-)]
    I think it would be hard to justify to the world banning Anatoly for his
    relatively minor annoyances when it took so long to do something about one
    help vampire whose behavior and the community's reaction severely damaged
    its atmosphere and really did scare new people away.
    This led me to look up "help vampire" which led me to a wiki on the topic
    of community management. Here's a sample link:
    http://communitymgt.wikia.com/wiki/RTFM

    Nice one :-)


    http://lmgtfy.com/


    BTW: Rather than actually ban Anatoly from the various mailing lists,
    I think setting his moderation flag would be a better approach. He'd
    get a note that his emails are being held for moderation and the
    moderators could then screen the emails for possibly problems.


    This would likely mean more work for the moderators and thus we'd
    need more moderators. Should be a fixable, though.


    --
    Marc-Andre Lemburg
    eGenix.com


    Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 29 2013)
    Python Projects, Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
    mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
    mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
    ________________________________________________________________________


    ::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::


        eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
         D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
                Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
                    http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  • Barry Warsaw at Nov 30, 2013 at 12:14 am
    On Nov 29, 2013, at 11:38 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

    BTW: Rather than actually ban Anatoly from the various mailing lists,
    I think setting his moderation flag would be a better approach. He'd
    get a note that his emails are being held for moderation and the
    moderators could then screen the emails for possibly problems.

    Remember that new python-dev members automatically get their moderation flag
    turned on. A moderator has to take an explicit action to unset a member's
    flag so that they can post to the list unhindered. By default, members with a
    set moderation flag have their postings held for approval.


    A member's moderation flag can easily be turned back on if necessary, and the
    normal moderation procedure can be to accept, reject (with a message), discard
    (throw it away), or defer for later. Python mailing lists are governed by the
    Code of Conduct, so if a member is violating that code, it seems like a
    measured, reasonable response would be to re-moderate their postings until
    their conduct complies again.


    The question of course is: who gets to decide? So far, we've operated pretty
    well on rough consensus, and I think we could probably do the same here, with
    the python-dev moderators having ultimate say. Other communities have
    democratically elected councils with set terms, to which such decisions can be
    referred. Perhaps it's time for Python to have such a community council?

    This would likely mean more work for the moderators and thus we'd
    need more moderators. Should be a fixable, though.

    python-dev has 2 owners and 5 moderators, with varying degrees of active
    participation. More help would surely be accepted.


    Cheers,
    -Barry
  • M.-A. Lemburg at Nov 30, 2013 at 12:38 am

    On 30.11.2013 01:14, Barry Warsaw wrote:
    On Nov 29, 2013, at 11:38 PM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

    BTW: Rather than actually ban Anatoly from the various mailing lists,
    I think setting his moderation flag would be a better approach. He'd
    get a note that his emails are being held for moderation and the
    moderators could then screen the emails for possibly problems.
    Remember that new python-dev members automatically get their moderation flag
    turned on. A moderator has to take an explicit action to unset a member's
    flag so that they can post to the list unhindered. By default, members with a
    set moderation flag have their postings held for approval.

    A member's moderation flag can easily be turned back on if necessary, and the
    normal moderation procedure can be to accept, reject (with a message), discard
    (throw it away), or defer for later. Python mailing lists are governed by the
    Code of Conduct, so if a member is violating that code, it seems like a
    measured, reasonable response would be to re-moderate their postings until
    their conduct complies again.

    I don't think a CoC will help in this case (I'm not even sure which CoC
    you are referring to :-)).


    Anatoly is basically just being ignorant, not explicitly rude or
    offensive; or at least not to the level where any such code would
    trigger sanctions. Of course, ignorance makes people angry.


    In my experience the best option is to fight ignorance with ignorance
    (if you are lucky enough to be able to use that option).


    If a moderator rejects a message with say "Please rephrase in a more
    productive way." or "Your message is difficult to understand. Please
    send an updated version." this may result in an improvement
    without actually enforcing some kind of ban.

    The question of course is: who gets to decide? So far, we've operated pretty
    well on rough consensus, and I think we could probably do the same here, with
    the python-dev moderators having ultimate say. Other communities have
    democratically elected councils with set terms, to which such decisions can be
    referred. Perhaps it's time for Python to have such a community council?

    I'd wait with that until the ratio between subjects in need of
    intensive care and members needed for such a council reaches
    a value higher than 10 ;-)

    This would likely mean more work for the moderators and thus we'd
    need more moderators. Should be a fixable, though.
    python-dev has 2 owners and 5 moderators, with varying degrees of active
    participation. More help would surely be accepted.

    Feel free to sign me up as moderator. More moderators means less
    work for everyone.


    Cheers,
    --
    Marc-Andre Lemburg
    eGenix.com


    Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 30 2013)
    Python Projects, Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
    mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
    mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
    ________________________________________________________________________


    ::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::


        eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
         D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
                Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
                    http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 29, 2013 at 9:51 pm

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 13:16 -0800, Ned Deily wrote:
    Right. We can't change other people's behavior. We can at best
    encourage change. In this case, I'm doubtful that banning would serve
    as an encouragement.

    Personally, I don't see it as an encouragement, rather a solution.
    The "temporary" part is in case he actually wants to start behaving
    better, but I'm not holding my breath.


    You can't fix people, but you can prevent them from actually being
    harmful.

    Why is it that we find him so annoying, enough to advocate fairly
    drastic measures like banning? There have been and will be others who
    behave similarly.

    I've only been here since 2006 or so, but I can't remember someone
    behaving like that on such a frequent and long-lived basis. He does
    stand out.

    Comparing his behavior to some of the recent, on-going cases of wildly
    inappropriate behavior on python-list (not involving Anatoly),

    If python-list is a troll magnet, that's a pity, but how is that
    relevant to the *development community*?


    Have you noticed that many of us hardly ever participate in
    python-list?
    I personally hate reading python-list because so much of it is misguided
    wishful-thinking people trying to help and reason trolls, and making
    python-list a frankly annoying place :-(


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Ned Deily at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    On Nov 29, 2013, at 13:51 , Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    On ven., 2013-11-29 at 13:16 -0800, Ned Deily wrote:
    Right. We can't change other people's behavior. We can at best
    encourage change. In this case, I'm doubtful that banning would serve
    as an encouragement.
    Personally, I don't see it as an encouragement, rather a solution.
    The "temporary" part is in case he actually wants to start behaving
    better, but I'm not holding my breath.

    You can't fix people, but you can prevent them from actually being
    harmful.

    The thing is it's a technical solution to a social problem. I don't the former tend to be all that effective for the latter. And I think reasonable people can disagree about the degree of harmfulness. I personally don't see his behavior, in and of itself, as all that harmful. I *do* see the negative reaction it provokes as being harmful. Clearly, it bothers people and that is disruptive. But it would be a whole lot less disruptive if we didn't let it be, e.g. by just letting it go and ignoring it.


    I'm very sympathetic to Alex's argument earlier and the link he provided to Karl Fogel's book. I think the case study provided there from the svn project is not all that comparable to the situation here. It's not the case that the mailing list(s) here is/are being swamped by one disruptive person. If we all just agreed to ignore him and try not to feel compelled to respond, I believe we would soon find there is no longer an issue and we wouldn't need to be discussing potentially damaging solutions like formally banning.

    Why is it that we find him so annoying, enough to advocate fairly
    drastic measures like banning? There have been and will be others who
    behave similarly.
    I've only been here since 2006 or so, but I can't remember someone
    behaving like that on such a frequent and long-lived basis. He does
    stand out.

    I think he stands out in part because we've spotlighted him.

    Comparing his behavior to some of the recent, on-going cases of wildly
    inappropriate behavior on python-list (not involving Anatoly),
    If python-list is a troll magnet, that's a pity, but how is that
    relevant to the *development community*?

    It's relevant because python-list is yet another forum hosted by the PSF via python.org mailing lists and is viewed as part of the broader Python community as a whole. If we propose to ban someone from python-list, along with other lists, that raises the question of what standards are being used. There is, in fact, a published suggested CoC for python-list (http://www.python.org/community/lists/). In the help vampire case, I think most reasonable people would agree that the CoC is reasonable, was clearly being violated, and that banning was a drastic, but ultimately, necessary step as people were not willing to just ignore the misbehavior. If the same CoC were applied to python-dev (and python-ideas et al), I think many people would disagree that the behavior in this case violates a similar CoC seriously enough to warrant a ban.

    Have you noticed that many of us hardly ever participate in
    python-list?
    I personally hate reading python-list because so much of it is misguided
    wishful-thinking people trying to help and reason trolls, and making
    python-list a frankly annoying place :-(

    It is a problem. And choosing to not participate is a perfectly rational and legitimate response. But it doesn't necessarily follow that banning someone is a better response. Trying to encourage different behavior can help if someone wants to take on that generally thankless effort. I applaud people like the other Ned who has lately been trying to do so there with some success. But it's not for everyone.


    --
       Ned Deily
       nad at acm.org -- []
  • Brett Cannon at Dec 1, 2013 at 12:16 am

    On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

    On Nov 30, 2013, at 05:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

    - flip his moderation bit on the mailing lists, at least for
    python-dev, python-ideas and distutils-sig (are there any other lists
    where his presence is considered disruptive?).
    Done, for techtonik at gmail.com on all three lists.

    For python-ideas, if someone wants to allow Anatoly's posts through then I
    will happily make them an admin of the list, but I have to just admit I
    can't be trusted to do it objectively and I don't want Anatoly to receive
    unjust treatment; there's just too much history after I tried to point out
    how he was being rude years ago and ended up with him attacking the PSF
    which I took personally. I'll ask Titus if he thinks he's up for it but I
    don't want to force him to shoulder the entire burden if doesn't think he
    can do it objectively either.
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  • Ethan Furman at Dec 1, 2013 at 9:03 pm

    On 11/30/2013 04:16 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
    For python-ideas, if someone wants to allow Anatoly's posts through then I will happily make them an admin of the list,
    but I have to just admit I can't be trusted to do it objectively and I don't want Anatoly to receive unjust treatment;
    there's just too much history after I tried to point out how he was being rude years ago and ended up with him attacking
    the PSF which I took personally. I'll ask Titus if he thinks he's up for it but I don't want to force him to shoulder
    the entire burden if doesn't think he can do it objectively either.

    I can do it.


    --
    ~Ethan~
  • Brett Cannon at Dec 1, 2013 at 12:22 am

    On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 5:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    On sam., 2013-11-30 at 11:10 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
    On Nov 30, 2013, at 05:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:

    - flip his moderation bit on the mailing lists, at least for
    python-dev, python-ideas and distutils-sig (are there any other lists
    where his presence is considered disruptive?).
    Done, for techtonik at gmail.com on all three lists.
    Thank you very much for stepping up, Barry and Nick.

    Thanks from me as well.
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  • Nick Coghlan at Dec 1, 2013 at 2:12 am

    On 1 December 2013 01:49, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    OK, moving on to mechanics, here's what I would like to propose:

    - flip his moderation bit on the mailing lists, at least for
    python-dev, python-ideas and distutils-sig (are there any other lists
    where his presence is considered disruptive?).

    - revoke his tracker privileges. If he would like something done on
    the tracker, he can ask Guido or Ezio to make the change on his
    behalf.

    I'm willing to be the bearer of bad news, and let Anatoly know this is
    being done, and cc' Guido and Ezio (as I'll also pass along their
    offers of assistance).

    This plan sounds good. I agree with Alex that the initial email has to be
    private. There's no need here for a public humiliation that will harm both
    Anatoly and Python.

    OK, I've sent the notification to Anatoly. I cc'ed Guido and Ezio
    (since I included their offer to mediate tracker access) and also
    bcc'ed the list admins for the three currently affected lists (so they
    know why his posts start appearing in the moderation queue).


    I don't appear to have the necessary tracker access to actually move
    his account to read-only status, though (this change should be made on
    the meta-tracker as well).


    Regards,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Guido van Rossum at Dec 1, 2013 at 2:33 am
    Nick,


    Thanks for doing this emotionally grueling task.


    --Guido


    On Saturday, November 30, 2013, Nick Coghlan wrote:

    On 1 December 2013 01:49, Eli Bendersky <eliben at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
    wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    OK, moving on to mechanics, here's what I would like to propose:

    - flip his moderation bit on the mailing lists, at least for
    python-dev, python-ideas and distutils-sig (are there any other lists
    where his presence is considered disruptive?).

    - revoke his tracker privileges. If he would like something done on
    the tracker, he can ask Guido or Ezio to make the change on his
    behalf.

    I'm willing to be the bearer of bad news, and let Anatoly know this is
    being done, and cc' Guido and Ezio (as I'll also pass along their
    offers of assistance).

    This plan sounds good. I agree with Alex that the initial email has to be
    private. There's no need here for a public humiliation that will harm both
    Anatoly and Python.
    OK, I've sent the notification to Anatoly. I cc'ed Guido and Ezio
    (since I included their offer to mediate tracker access) and also
    bcc'ed the list admins for the three currently affected lists (so they
    know why his posts start appearing in the moderation queue).

    I don't appear to have the necessary tracker access to actually move
    his account to read-only status, though (this change should be made on
    the meta-tracker as well).

    Regards,
    Nick.

    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com <javascript:;> | Brisbane,
    Australia



    --
    --Guido van Rossum (on iPad)
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  • R. David Murray at Dec 1, 2013 at 5:55 am

    On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 12:12:08 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    I don't appear to have the necessary tracker access to actually move
    his account to read-only status, though (this change should be made on
    the meta-tracker as well).

    You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I
    think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin
    will need to handle that one.)


    On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left
    when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day
    that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think
    it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure),
    so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation.


    --David
  • Nick Coghlan at Dec 1, 2013 at 11:06 am

    On 1 December 2013 15:55, R. David Murray wrote:
    You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I
    think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin
    will need to handle that one.)

    Thanks - I've now removed his User role access on the main tracker.

    On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left
    when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day
    that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think
    it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure),
    so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation.

    We'll try "no roles assigned" for now. I don't expect Anatoly to be
    actively malicious about this - I still believe he's genuinely trying
    to help. Unfortunately, his getting obsessed with things that are
    either tedious to fix or just incredibly hard to change and then
    refusing to take "no" for an answer is so incredibly draining for
    other community members that it seemed necessary to send a much
    stronger "please stop trying to help, as you're doing more harm than
    good" message. It's a terrible thing to have to say to someone, but at
    this point I'm more worried about the effect on everyone else
    (including me) of his continued participation than I am about the
    impact explicit exclusion will have on him :(


    Regards,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Martin at Dec 1, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    Quoting "R. David Murray" <rdmurray@bitdance.com>:


    On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left
    when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day
    that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think
    it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure),
    so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation.

    I just experimented with this a bit. Removing the User role will also mean
    that you lose the ability to log in ("You are not allowed to login");
    I think it might be better to give the "Anonymous" role (meaning that
    it makes no difference whether you are logged in or not).


    Regards,
    Martin
  • R. David Murray at Dec 1, 2013 at 5:46 pm

    On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 18:11:47 +0100, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:
    Quoting "R. David Murray" <rdmurray@bitdance.com>:
    On the other hand, I'm not actually sure what kind of access is left
    when you remove all the roles from a user. I did notice the other day
    that email to the tracker still seems to work for new issues (I think
    it was a new issue, I don't remember the sequence of events for sure),
    so we may in fact still need to create a new role for this situation.
    I just experimented with this a bit. Removing the User role will also mean
    that you lose the ability to log in ("You are not allowed to login");
    I think it might be better to give the "Anonymous" role (meaning that
    it makes no difference whether you are logged in or not).

    That makes sense to me. Done.


    --David
  • Martin at Dec 1, 2013 at 6:29 pm

    Quoting "R. David Murray" <rdmurray@bitdance.com>:


    You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I
    think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin
    will need to handle that one.)

    I've restricted anatoly's access there; I've also given you the
    Admin role on that tracker.


    Regards,
    Martin
  • R. David Murray at Dec 1, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:29:25 +0100, martin at v.loewis.de wrote:
    Quoting "R. David Murray" <rdmurray@bitdance.com>:
    You should have the necessary privileges on the tracker now, since I
    think you ought to. (I don't have them on the meta-tracker, so Martin
    will need to handle that one.)
    I've restricted anatoly's access there; I've also given you the
    Admin role on that tracker.

    Thanks.


    --David
  • Georg Brandl at Dec 1, 2013 at 7:52 am

    Am 01.12.2013 03:12, schrieb Nick Coghlan:
    On 1 December 2013 01:49, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    OK, moving on to mechanics, here's what I would like to propose:

    - flip his moderation bit on the mailing lists, at least for
    python-dev, python-ideas and distutils-sig (are there any other lists
    where his presence is considered disruptive?).

    - revoke his tracker privileges. If he would like something done on
    the tracker, he can ask Guido or Ezio to make the change on his
    behalf.

    I'm willing to be the bearer of bad news, and let Anatoly know this is
    being done, and cc' Guido and Ezio (as I'll also pass along their
    offers of assistance).

    This plan sounds good. I agree with Alex that the initial email has to be
    private. There's no need here for a public humiliation that will harm both
    Anatoly and Python.
    OK, I've sent the notification to Anatoly. I cc'ed Guido and Ezio
    (since I included their offer to mediate tracker access) and also
    bcc'ed the list admins for the three currently affected lists (so they
    know why his posts start appearing in the moderation queue).

    Thanks! I'm sorry to have spawned such a long and draining discussion,
    but I'm convinced it had to be done at some point.


    cheers,
    Georg
  • Ned Deily at Dec 1, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    On Nov 30, 2013, at 23:52 , Georg Brandl wrote:


    Am 01.12.2013 03:12, schrieb Nick Coghlan:
    OK, I've sent the notification to Anatoly. I cc'ed Guido and Ezio
    (since I included their offer to mediate tracker access) and also
    bcc'ed the list admins for the three currently affected lists (so they
    know why his posts start appearing in the moderation queue).
    Thanks! I'm sorry to have spawned such a long and draining discussion,
    but I'm convinced it had to be done at some point.



    And I'm sorry to have prolonged the discussion although I do appreciate the comments on what I wrote.


    While it has been painful, I think the way this decision was reached is praiseworthy. The discussion was open, serious, deeply-felt, yet respectful to all - in other words, in the best traditions of the Python community. Thank you all and a particular thank you to Nick.


    --Ned


    --
       Ned Deily
       nad at acm.org -- []
  • Ethan Furman at Dec 1, 2013 at 9:00 pm
    Thanks, Nick.


    Your time and energy are appreciated.


    --
    ~Ethan~
  • Martin at Dec 1, 2013 at 4:55 pm

    Quoting Ned Deily <nad@acm.org>:


    You can't fix people, but you can prevent them from actually being
    harmful.
    The thing is it's a technical solution to a social problem.

    No, that's not true. The ban itself is a social reaction to a social
    problem. The technical reaction is only to actually enforce the ban.


    I have personally banned two people so far from "python-dev", and
    at least in one case, the ban wasn't actually enforced, but honored
    nevertheless.


    It *would* be a technical solution if the ban wasn't actually communicated,
    but only implemented (something which is quite common in RL, e.g. when
    people change the locks on their doors to lock out their former partners)

    the former tend to be all that effective for the latter. And I
    think reasonable people can disagree about the degree of
    harmfulness. I personally don't see his behavior, in and of itself,
    as all that harmful. I *do* see the negative reaction it provokes
    as being harmful. Clearly, it bothers people and that is
    disruptive. But it would be a whole lot less disruptive if we
    didn't let it be, e.g. by just letting it go and ignoring it.

    Since nobody mentioned it this time (or since I missed if somebody did),
    I'll mention the "poisonous people" talk from Collins-Sussman/Fitzpatrick):


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52kFL8zVoM


    I said this several years ago, and I still believe that anatoly is a
    poisonous person, in the sense of this talk.


    Several strategies just don't work here, e.g. trying to win an argument
    with anatoly. A strategy that I believe that *also* doesn't work is
    to let "the community" ignore him. In a free software project, fluctuation
    is just too high to make this work.


    It takes several years (for some of us) to recognize that ignoring
    him entirely is the only reasonable personal reaction. If we wanted to
    effectively make it work, we would have to educate every single contributor
    "don't talk to anatoly, and don't respond if he is talking to you".
    This can't work in the large scale.

    If python-list is a troll magnet, that's a pity, but how is that
    relevant to the *development community*?
    It's relevant because python-list is yet another forum hosted by the
    PSF via python.org mailing lists and is viewed as part of the
    broader Python community as a whole. If we propose to ban someone
    from python-list, along with other lists, that raises the question
    of what standards are being used.

    I don't think anybody should be banned from python-list; I think talk
    is just about "python-dev" (including all core cpython infrastructure).

    It is a problem. And choosing to not participate is a perfectly
    rational and legitimate response. But it doesn't necessarily follow
    that banning someone is a better response.

    I think it is. Based on past experience, it would be temporarily anyway,
    and it may buy us a year or so of mental peace.


    Regards,
    Martin
  • R. David Murray at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:17 pm

    On Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:16:32 -0800, Ned Deily wrote:
    On Nov 29, 2013, at 12:12 , Guido van Rossum wrote:

    The question is, how effective will the alternative solution
    (banning him) be? I worry that it's just going to make things worse.
    I think that is a legitimate concern and likely outcome.
    The key thing to understand here is that you can't win an argument
    with Anatoly. You can only avoid *getting* into one.
    Right. We can't change other people's behavior. We can at best
    encourage change. In this case, I'm doubtful that banning would serve
    as an encouragement. I understand the many of us get annoyed and
    frustrated by his comments and the multiple re-opening of the tracker
    issue thing the other day was certainly uncalled-for behavior on his
    part. But it was likely fueled in part by people's reaction to his

    Since his multiple re-openings really are a trigger for us, one possible
    mitigation (*not* solution) would be to set up a special tracker account
    type just for Anatoly that does not have authorization to edit any
    tracker fields once the issue is created.


    This is a half-joking suggestion, but only half.

    comments. I think the more important issue here is not his behavior
    but our behavior in how we react to behavior like this. *That* is
    something we can reasonably try to change. Why is it that we find him
    so annoying, enough to advocate fairly drastic measures like banning?

    He does not evidence any respect for the community, and so we not only
    get defensive, we want to attack back.

    There have been and will be others who behave similarly. I don't
    propose to try to answer that question: it's one that each of us will
    have our own answer to.

    I think that if he is not banned it is important to call him out on
    his actions *politely* when his tone is insulting instead of polite, to
    indicate to the rest of the community that we value a polite environment.
    Other people have changed their behavior when we have done this.
    Anatoly has not. But the message to the rest of the community makes it
    worth doing even when Anatoly himself doesn't change.


    However...ignoring him can be tough. Engaging his *valid* points without
    letting emotion color the interaction is tougher. Calling him out on
    his bad behavior without letting the emotion in is the toughest.


    So yeah, he's a problem no matter which way you slice it. As Ned
    says maybe doing our best to set a good example is the best course.


    I'm not against banning him myself, but I'm not particularly for it,
    either. I don't know *what* the best course is here.


    --David


    PS: Maybe we could set up some mailing list software that, every time
    Anatoly starts a new thread, and periodically during it, it posts
    an "Anatoly FAQ"?


    Yes, that one *is* 100% a joke. Or at least 99%.
  • Brian Curtin at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:48 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Tim Peters wrote:


    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try it
    ;-)



    I've filtered his emails to the trash for close to two years now so I'm
    only aware of him when issues like this come up. He doesn't get to come in
    here and act how he does, and openly say he's being disrespectful on
    purpose, and then say that he can't be nice if we don't make him happy.


    I doubt he would walk into a restaurant, complain about the process they
    used to create their menu, then complain when they don't make food the way
    he likes, then be mean to the waiters and waitresses because they're not
    seeing to it that he is comforted. If he did, they'd just call the police
    and he'd be escorted out.
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  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 29, 2013 at 7:14 pm

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:

    On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Tim Peters wrote:

    I pretty much ignore Anatoly, and that works really well for me - try it
    ;-)

    I've filtered his emails to the trash for close to two years now so I'm
    only aware of him when issues like this come up. He doesn't get to come in
    here and act how he does, and openly say he's being disrespectful on
    purpose, and then say that he can't be nice if we don't make him happy.

    I doubt he would walk into a restaurant, complain about the process they
    used to create their menu, then complain when they don't make food the way
    he likes, then be mean to the waiters and waitresses because they're not
    seeing to it that he is comforted. If he did, they'd just call the police
    and he'd be escorted out.

    This analogy feels flawed -- Python users who are unhappy with the
    community's process for change can't just switch to Ruby, because they have
    all this software that's already written in Python.


    I'm still thinking about whether there's something we committers should do
    besides staying calm and staying out of the discussion despite the
    offensive criticism, but nothing comes to mind.


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Christian Heimes at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    Am 29.11.2013 19:14, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
    Have you read the latest on the python-dev thread? Several other
    people are now also complaining. The only thing that makes sense to
    me is nothing -- banning Anatoly now is just going to cause a PR
    disaster. Not responding at all will most likely cause it to blow
    over (surely they will collectively make fools of themselves, and
    Anatoly's post is the closest to trolling from him yet). I'll add
    some pointers to the peps repo README file so we can close that
    issue properly as well.

    "Several people" is an exaggeration. Only Kristjan is complaining and
    he sure hasn't dealt with Anatoly before. Let's not forget that four
    core devs have agreed to close the ticket.


    Perhaps it's time to try a more technical approach and restrict
    modifications of status, resolution, version and priority to core devs
    or CLA signers. That could stop his rampage without further discussion.
  • Ethan Furman at Nov 29, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    On 11/29/2013 10:28 AM, Christian Heimes wrote:
    Perhaps it's time to try a more technical approach and restrict
    modifications of status, resolution, version and priority to core devs
    or CLA signers. That could stop his rampage without further discussion.

    +1


    --
    ~Ethan~
  • Georg Brandl at Nov 29, 2013 at 6:40 pm

    Am 29.11.2013 19:14, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
    Have you read the latest on the python-dev thread? Several other people are now
    also complaining. The only thing that makes sense to me is nothing -- banning
    Anatoly now is just going to cause a PR disaster.

    There's no reason for banning - he has not touched the issue again.


    Also, I think that for an open source project the sanity of the contributors is
    as important as PR, if not more.


    Georg
  • Terry Reedy at Nov 29, 2013 at 10:49 pm

    On 11/29/2013 10:04 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:
    I just want to make sure others know that Georg has warned Anatoly that
    if he continues to re-open a specific issue he will lose his tracker
    privileges (http://bugs.python.org/issue19822#msg204696). I stand behind
    his warning and will support anyone who enforces it. I would suggest
    that if he does this to *any* other issue that he be warned that
    flipping *any *fields after a core dev has made a decision and without
    discussing it first will also lead to his loss of privileges.

    He did this a couple of months ago on another issue and I told him
    directly to stop. Enough warnings.

    I would also like to point out his attitude is still horrible at times;
    being accused of spreading "ill FUD policies in favor of creating [a]
    collaborative environment" is not exactly
    polite (http://bugs.python.org/issue19826#msg204693).

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