I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):


http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26


Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general?


--
Best regards,
?ukasz Langa
Senior Systems Architecture Engineer


IT Infrastructure Department
Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.


http://lukasz.langa.pl/
+48 791 080 144


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  • M.-A. Lemburg at Nov 7, 2012 at 9:25 am

    On 07.11.2012 09:45, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general?

    I've reverted his changes. The wiki guidelines are much too important
    to have them changed significantly without any discussion on
    pydotorg-www (or wherever such things are discussed :-)).


    --
    Marc-Andre Lemburg
    eGenix.com


    Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 07 2012)
    Python Projects, Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
    mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
    mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
    ________________________________________________________________________


    ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
    Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
    http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  • Nick Coghlan at Nov 7, 2012 at 9:46 am

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:45 PM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
    largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it
    seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he
    edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do
    not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
    general?

    As far as I know, most of the core committers that follow python-ideas
    at all already have him killfiled so we don't see his messages, only
    replies to him. I believe I was one of the last holdouts, but relented
    after losing my temper with him a few times earlier this year and
    realising I no longer had any patience for him, after spending a lot
    of time trying to help channel his passion in more productive
    directions.


    That's always been the problem - his passion for Python is clear, but
    he's completely clueless when it comes to dealing with people, so it
    ultimately just isn't worth the hassle of trying to engage. It's
    starting to sound like we may need to do something more drastic than
    just ignoring him, though - the occasional good idea he's come up with
    may not be worth the cost it is having in terms of annoying other
    community members :(


    Sadly,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Ronald Oussoren at Nov 7, 2012 at 9:53 am

    On 7 Nov, 2012, at 9:45, ?ukasz Langa wrote:


    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general?

    I don't think it is worthwhile to react beyond the revert that Marc Andre did. He appears to mean well, but has trouble communicating clearly. I've noticed that while I still read his e-mails to python-ideas I do give them ever less attention because he appears to just drop of half-baked ideas without any intention of following up on them.


    That said, I have received a number of useful contributions from him for other projects.


    Ronald

    --
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
    Senior Systems Architecture Engineer

    IT Infrastructure Department
    Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.

    http://lukasz.langa.pl/
    +48 791 080 144

    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
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  • Martin v. Löwis at Nov 7, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:
    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
    largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
    it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
    he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
    you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
    general?

    I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
    For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
    care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.


    If the wiki maintainers want to ban him from modifying the wiki, they
    have my support.


    Regards,
    Martin
  • Łukasz Langa at Nov 7, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    Wiadomo?? napisana przez Martin v. L?wis <martin@v.loewis.de> w dniu 7 lis 2012, o godz. 13:06:


    Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:
    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
    largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
    it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
    he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
    you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
    general?
    I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
    For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
    care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.

    I have been doing the same thing for quite some time, too. Lately though I gave some thought into this and I think maintaining the status quo is harmful to us as a community. I'd like us to react somehow.


    I agree with Jacob Kaplan-Moss when he says [1]: "I will call out antisocial behavior, enforce professionalism in the communities where I have the power to do, and leave the communities that cannot at least offer civility."


    More generally, Eliezer Yudkowsky's opinion [2] resonates with me: "good online communities die primarily by refusing to defend themselves". While this sounds overly dramatic, it describes the gist of the problem: quality goes down to the point where helpful members stop caring.


    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.


    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member is worse than keeping him around?


    [1] http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/
    [2] http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
    [3] http://www.informationweek.com/how-to-keep-hostile-jerks-from-taking-ov/199600005


    --
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
    Senior Systems Architecture Engineer


    IT Infrastructure Department
    Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.


    http://lukasz.langa.pl/
    +48 791 080 144


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  • Brett Cannon at Nov 7, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:26 AM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:


    Wiadomo?? napisana przez Martin v. L?wis <martin@v.loewis.de> w dniu 7
    lis 2012, o godz. 13:06:

    Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:

    I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
    largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
    it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
    he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
    you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev15&rev26

    Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
    general?
    I perceive his contributions as worthless. He points out real issues and
    then blows way past reasonableness with how to resolve them, being rude in
    the process.



    I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
    For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
    care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.


    I have been doing the same thing for quite some time, too. Lately though I
    gave some thought into this and I think maintaining the status quo is
    harmful to us as a community. I'd like us to react somehow.

    I agree with Jacob Kaplan-Moss when he says [1]: "I will call out
    antisocial behavior, enforce professionalism in the communities where I
    have the power to do, and leave the communities that cannot at least
    offer civility."

    More generally, Eliezer Yudkowsky's opinion [2] resonates with me: "good
    online communities die primarily by refusing to defend themselves". While
    this sounds overly dramatic, it describes the gist of the problem: quality
    goes down to the point where helpful members stop caring.

    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
    towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea.

    So before I started to send his emails into a blackhole, I called him out
    multiple times, to the point of basically yelling at him over email for
    being a jerk (this was when he called for the dissolving of the PSF board
    because he thought they were doing a bad job). He has been told multiple
    times he needs to change his attitude and he has yet to do so.



    Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real
    life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
    the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them
    up" [3].

    He actually cornered me at PyCon in 2011 and he is pushy in person. He
    wasn't rude, but trying to explain to him that his view isn't reasonable
    doesn't not get through in-person either. I actually had to just walk away
    from the conversation to stop myself from yelling at him (he thought the
    state of the web-related libraries, e.g. urllib, were not great so to
    resolve it all the core developers should participate in rewriting
    python.org from scratch in order to suffer and thus be motivated to fix the
    libraries).



    If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of
    communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.
    The problem is how do we do that? Do the owners of various systems take it
    upon themselves or do we take on some concerted effort across the whole
    community? I mean I'm a moderator on python-ideas, but no one has directly
    complained to python-ideas-owner@ yet (although I guess I indirectly
    complained to myself when I started to auto-delete his emails and some
    people have personally vented to me as a friend) and I can't make him never
    appear on the issue tracker again (at least I don't think only Martin can).
    Does the PSF need to get involved somehow if we try to do a community-wide
    thing instead of a per-system thing where it's more at the discretion of
    the maintainers?



    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member
    is worse than keeping him around?

    No.


    -Brett





    [1] http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/
    [2] http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
    [3]
    http://www.informationweek.com/how-to-keep-hostile-jerks-from-taking-ov/199600005

    --
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
    Senior Systems Architecture Engineer

    IT Infrastructure Department
    Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.

    http://lukasz.langa.pl/
    +48 791 080 144


    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
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  • Dirkjan Ochtman at Nov 7, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
    If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of
    communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.
    The problem is how do we do that? Do the owners of various systems take it
    upon themselves or do we take on some concerted effort across the whole
    community? I mean I'm a moderator on python-ideas, but no one has directly
    complained to python-ideas-owner@ yet (although I guess I indirectly
    complained to myself when I started to auto-delete his emails and some
    people have personally vented to me as a friend) and I can't make him never
    appear on the issue tracker again (at least I don't think only Martin can).
    Does the PSF need to get involved somehow if we try to do a community-wide
    thing instead of a per-system thing where it's more at the discretion of the
    maintainers?

    If nothing else, it seems like the time has come to get the ball
    rolling on this, so we at least have a plan for how to do this kind of
    thing?


    I would definitely agree that his contributions here (and elsewhere,
    BTW) are negative enough that banning is warranted.


    Cheers,


    Dirkjan
  • Barry Warsaw at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:21 pm
    On Nov 07, 2012, at 03:05 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:

    If nothing else, it seems like the time has come to get the ball
    rolling on this, so we at least have a plan for how to do this kind of
    thing?

    I don't think the issue has really ever come to such a head before. Let's get
    postmaster@ involved, in case we want a blanket ban on either all @python.org
    addresses or mailing lists (not that such thing can't be wormed around for the
    really persistent).


    -Barry
  • M.-A. Lemburg at Nov 7, 2012 at 2:00 pm

    On 07.11.2012 14:26, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.

    Cory's point is a good one and, at least in my experience, often works
    wonders.


    Call him on the phone or invite him to a conference. He's based
    in Minsk, Belarus, AFAIK.


    --
    Marc-Andre Lemburg
    eGenix.com


    Professional Python Services directly from the Source (#1, Nov 07 2012)
    Python Projects, Consulting and Support ... http://www.egenix.com/
    mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ... http://zope.egenix.com/
    mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
    ________________________________________________________________________


    ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


    eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
    Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
    http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
  • Martin at Nov 7, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Zitat von "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal@egenix.com>:


    Cory's point is a good one and, at least in my experience, often works
    wonders.

    Call him on the phone or invite him to a conference. He's based
    in Minsk, Belarus, AFAIK.

    Guido tried to arrange a peace treaty between him and me at some pycon,
    and I really tried for a few days. Eventually, I gave up. Unlike Brett,
    I actually shouted.


    He cites his lack of mastery of English as his main problem, but I do
    think there is much more.


    So I think that path has already been investigated sufficiently.


    Regards,
    Martin
  • R. David Murray at Nov 7, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, wrote:
    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
    towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
    Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
    -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
    the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
    them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
    the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
    abusive behavior.

    As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
    pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
    The problem with banning him in general is that that has its own
    consequences (and as Brett pointed out, how exactly do we do that?).
    Banning him for specific actions (such as editing the Guidelines)
    seems sensible. We basically booted him off the infrastructure mailing
    list (I don't remember if it was a formal ban or not) when he was being
    off-topic and annoying there.

    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
    member is worse than keeping him around?

    If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
    no-brainer. However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
    would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).


    --David
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 7, 2012 at 3:11 pm
    I sent Anatoly a note and suggested that we talk on Skype. We'll see what
    happens.




    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray wrote:

    On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, wrote:
    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
    towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
    Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
    -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
    the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
    them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
    the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
    abusive behavior.
    As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
    pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
    The problem with banning him in general is that that has its own
    consequences (and as Brett pointed out, how exactly do we do that?).
    Banning him for specific actions (such as editing the Guidelines)
    seems sensible. We basically booted him off the infrastructure mailing
    list (I don't remember if it was a formal ban or not) when he was being
    off-topic and annoying there.
    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
    member is worse than keeping him around?
    If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
    no-brainer. However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
    would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

    --David
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers





    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Nick Coghlan at Nov 7, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 12:08 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
    On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, wrote:
    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
    member is worse than keeping him around?
    If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
    no-brainer. However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
    would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

    Right, it isn't banning Anatoly in particular that's likely to be
    controversial, it's making it completely clear that "yes, if you
    successfully piss off all the people that hold the keys to the
    python.org infrastructure, you can and will be banned from
    participating in any of the communication forums provided by that
    infrastructure, specifically the mailing lists, the issue tracker and
    the wiki (and the source code repo, if you previously had commit
    privileges)".


    The mail archives will show that Brett's not the only one that has
    tried to channel Anatoly's energy more productively (and the creation
    of python-ideas did keep him from bothering python-dev too much for
    quite a long time), but every time we think there are signs of
    progress, some other new issue comes up and the pattern is always
    basically the same:
    - "X sucks"
    - "Yes, it's a hard problem, and not very exciting, so volunteers
    aren't inclined to work on it"
    - "but X sucks, so we should do Y"
    - "but Y is hugely inconvenient for everyone, so it will never happen.
    Besides, even if it did happen, it won't help fix X"
    - "we should totally do Y, you're all idiots for not seeing that"
    - ...


    Although substitute alternate explanations at step 2 like "it's a rare
    problem" or "it's not a problem for the core team to deal with", or
    "it's not a significant problem for anyone else" or "yes, efforts are
    in process to deal with that, but its a long slow effort to build
    community consensus" etc, etc.


    Regards,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Chris Jerdonek at Nov 7, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
    On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, wrote:
    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
    towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
    Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
    -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
    the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
    them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
    the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
    abusive behavior.
    As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
    pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.

    Aside from calling him out on his behavior and trying to change it,
    has anyone additionally made it clear to him that "if you continue
    this behavior, you will be banned from [insert as appropriate]"? Or
    is an explicit warning not needed?


    --Chris
  • Brian Curtin at Nov 7, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Chris Jerdonek wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
    On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, wrote:
    What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
    towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
    Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
    -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
    the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
    them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
    the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
    abusive behavior.
    As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
    pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
    Aside from calling him out on his behavior and trying to change it,
    has anyone additionally made it clear to him that "if you continue
    this behavior, you will be banned from [insert as appropriate]"? Or
    is an explicit warning not needed?

    We could probably give him the explicit warning, and I suspect that
    may come out of the skype call that was mentioned, but I think he has
    to know by now that he's been toeing the line for probably 2 years. I
    used to try to work with him, then switched to trying to talk sense
    into him, then switched to defending why we do things, and then ended
    up filtering his emails. I've seen others lead down the same path.


    If he's actually reading what we're writing, it's never going in a
    positive direction with him.
  • Dirkjan Ochtman at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:31 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:08 PM, R. David Murray wrote:
    If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
    no-brainer. However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
    would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

    Not sure I agree with that. As a participator in open source
    communities, I would rather appreciate a community taking action to
    protect itself from negative contributors.


    This might be a good reference:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE


    As is this:


    http://producingoss.com/


    For those who aren't aware of these resources already.


    Cheers,


    Dirkjan
  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 7, 2012 at 4:55 pm
    [...]
    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member
    is worse than keeping him around?

    No.


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:


    [...]
    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member
    is worse than keeping him around?
    No.

    It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
    perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
    him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep
    Python knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to be
    compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical troll
    is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks
    social skills (English not being his first language may contribute here).
    And yes, he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.


    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Chris Jerdonek at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:15 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    [...]
    All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
    member
    is worse than keeping him around?
    No.

    It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
    perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
    him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to be
    compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical troll
    is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks social
    skills (English not being his first language may contribute here). And yes,
    he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.

    That's why I think an explicit warning might be good in this case (if
    it hasn't already been given). He obviously(?) cares about Python, so
    the threat of banning might be what it takes to get him to give pause
    before posting. The lack of social skills can go both ways (i.e. both
    writing and interpreting), in which case he might not have picked up
    on any implicit threat of banning. But I know very little about the
    situation, so feel free to disregard my suggestion.


    --Chris
  • Antoine Pitrou at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
    perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
    him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep
    Python knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to
    be
    compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical
    troll
    is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks
    social skills (English not being his first language may contribute here).
    And yes, he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.

    Well, is he even interested in learning? He sticks to his preconceived
    notions about
    basically everything, including how a community should function.


    The only saving grace in his behaviour, IMO, is that he doesn't try to
    annoy non-core developers.


    Regards


    Antoine.
  • Dirkjan Ochtman at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.

    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.


    Cheers,


    Dirkjan
  • Andrew Svetlov at Nov 7, 2012 at 5:33 pm
    I'm with Dirkjan. Personally I know several pythonistas living in Minsk.
    Not so many Python Developers as Kiev has, but Minsk is not black
    hole, trust me.

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.
    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.

    Cheers,

    Dirkjan
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers





    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
  • Eli Bendersky at Nov 7, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.
    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.

    Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
    That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
    experienced Python programmer in that country.


    Eli
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  • Andrew Svetlov at Nov 7, 2012 at 8:39 pm
    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.


    I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
    productive ones.


    I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
    him the current state.





    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.
    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.

    Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
    That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
    experienced Python programmer in that country.

    Eli



    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers





    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
  • Guido van Rossum at Nov 7, 2012 at 9:04 pm
    From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...



    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:

    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.

    I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
    productive ones.

    I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
    him the current state.


    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.
    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.

    Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
    That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
    experienced Python programmer in that country.

    Eli



    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers


    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers





    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Andrew Svetlov at Nov 7, 2012 at 9:10 pm
    Let's wait a bit.

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...

    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:

    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.

    I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
    productive ones.

    I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
    him the current state.


    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan@ochtman.nl>
    wrote:
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
    wrote:
    imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
    knowledge and interest in Minsk.
    I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
    underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
    pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
    told me about user groups he went to.

    Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
    That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
    experienced Python programmer in that country.

    Eli



    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers


    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers



    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)





    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
  • Nick Coghlan at Dec 25, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:
    Let's wait a bit.
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...


    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov <andrew.svetlov@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.

    Did anything come of this? There are now a few more threads on
    python-ideas that are almost pure Anatoly-instigated noise :P


    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)
    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.


    Regards,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Christian Heimes at Dec 25, 2012 at 1:01 pm

    Am 25.12.2012 13:37, schrieb Nick Coghlan:
    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)
    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.

    +1


    He is so far beyond the point of political correctness and
    respectability that I'm unable to find any words for his behavior in my
    dictionary. His attitude hasn't improved, too. For example in bug
    http://bugs.python.org/issue16689 he used an offensive title and
    re-opened the ticket *twice* although it was closed by two different and
    highly respectable core devs.


    I hate to kick out people but I see no other way to deal with the issue
    anymore. :(


    Christian
  • Victor Stinner at Dec 25, 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Le mardi 25 d?cembre 2012, Christian Heimes a ?crit :


    His attitude hasn't improved, too. For example in bug
    http://bugs.python.org/issue16689 he used an offensive title and
    re-opened the ticket *twice* although it was closed by two different and
    highly respectable core devs.

    Oh, I missed that one. I worked on the previous issue: 16656. I wrote
    a long message to explain him that his issue is a Windows issue, it cannot
    be solved and using Unicode works correctly. I closed the issue but he
    reopened it quickly without trying to understand. He just ignored my
    message. He is very annoying.


    Victor
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  • Terry Reedy at Dec 25, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    On 12/25/2012 8:01 AM, Christian Heimes wrote:
    Am 25.12.2012 13:37, schrieb Nick Coghlan:
    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)

    I believe it is cluelessness mixed with an idiosyncratic nacissistic
    obstinacy that seems to block him from learning. I no longer take
    anything he says personally.

    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.

    I personally see his signal-noise ratio as about 1/2, but can understand
    if others put it lower (though still above 0/infinity).


    The issue Christian mentions below was at most 1/10. On the other hand,
    another recent issue was close to 1/1 and lead to a doc patch.

    He is so far beyond the point of political correctness and
    respectability that I'm unable to find any words for his behavior in my
    dictionary. His attitude hasn't improved, too. For example in bug
    http://bugs.python.org/issue16689 he used an offensive title and
    re-opened the ticket *twice* although it was closed by two different and
    highly respectable core devs.

    I hate to kick out people but I see no other way to deal with the issue
    anymore. :(

    The third close message said clearly 'Do not reopen again.'. If he
    ignores that, then I think his tracker access should be suspended for at
    least a month. (IE, I think that message constituted 'warning'.)


    Terry Jan Reedy
  • Andrew Svetlov at Dec 25, 2012 at 1:59 pm

    On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:
    Let's wait a bit.
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...


    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov <andrew.svetlov@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.
    Did anything come of this? There are now a few more threads on
    python-ideas that are almost pure Anatoly-instigated noise :P

    I got reply from Anatoly. Short summary is:
    1. He don't want to sign Licence Agreement by some reasons (not clean
    to me. Looks like his objections are not showstopper for every another
    contributor).
    2. He don't want to work on patches due lack of free time/interest and
    not enough experience level.
    3. He like to protect hard his opinion unless 100% sure he is wrong.
    and
    4. He want to be helpful for Python and community


    Looks like points 1-3 are opposite to point 4 :)

    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)
    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.

    Regards,
    Nick.

    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia





    --
    Thanks,
    Andrew Svetlov
  • Chris Jerdonek at Dec 25, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Andrew Svetlov wrote:
    Let's wait a bit.
    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
    From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...


    On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov <andrew.svetlov@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
    CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
    well enough to be witness for my words.
    Did anything come of this? There are now a few more threads on
    python-ideas that are almost pure Anatoly-instigated noise :P

    Back in November, I had asked if anyone had ever given him an
    official/explicit warning that he would be kicked out if he continued
    certain behavior, and it didn't seem that anyone had ever had. Out of
    curiosity, has that been done since then? I think it is good practice
    to issue a warning before kicking someone out.


    --Chris
  • Eli Bendersky at Dec 25, 2012 at 10:51 pm

    Did anything come of this? There are now a few more threads on
    python-ideas that are almost pure Anatoly-instigated noise :P
    Back in November, I had asked if anyone had ever given him an
    official/explicit warning that he would be kicked out if he continued
    certain behavior, and it didn't seem that anyone had ever had. Out of
    curiosity, has that been done since then? I think it is good practice
    to issue a warning before kicking someone out.

    I'd say that the email sent by Andrew Svetlov certainly counts as a
    warning. I also recall Guido mentioned he'll speak with Anatoly over Skype.


    Eli
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  • Chris Jerdonek at Dec 25, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
    Did anything come of this? There are now a few more threads on
    python-ideas that are almost pure Anatoly-instigated noise :P
    Back in November, I had asked if anyone had ever given him an
    official/explicit warning that he would be kicked out if he continued
    certain behavior, and it didn't seem that anyone had ever had. Out of
    curiosity, has that been done since then? I think it is good practice
    to issue a warning before kicking someone out.

    I'd say that the email sent by Andrew Svetlov certainly counts as a warning.
    I also recall Guido mentioned he'll speak with Anatoly over Skype.

    Then I guess I'm asking if he was explicitly warned in either that
    e-mail or Skype conversation. You can tell someone, "people don't
    like your behavior" without saying "we will kick you off if you
    continue." One states the consequence.


    --Chris
  • Łukasz Langa at Dec 25, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    Dnia 25 gru 2012 o godz. 13:37 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> napisa?(a):


    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)
    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.

    +1


    I opened this thread so I feel somewhat responsible to carry this out to finish. Give me a day or two to contemplate on how to achieve the following:


    1. Communicate what happened clearly and openly to our community.


    2. Communicate to Anatoly the decision to cut him off.


    3. Arrange for feasible technological ways to execute the ban on python.org resources, preparing also for vengeful action (which given the history is unfortunately likely).


    4. Prepare for rectifying unjust PR by the banned person, etc.


    I'm seriously considering writing all this as a PEP (most likely without any personal details). I hope this won't be useful in the future but it might help having this gathered as written policy, if only for transparency reasons.


    What do you think?


    I feel very bad that it has come to this but I strongly believe this is necessary to protect us as a community.
  • Brian Curtin at Dec 26, 2012 at 2:20 am

    On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 4:56 PM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    Dnia 25 gru 2012 o godz. 13:37 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com> napisa?(a):
    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the feelings
    of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his obtuseness
    (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine cluelessness)
    than I care about his feelings. He has the entire internet to play on,
    we don't have to allow him access to python.org controlled resources.
    +1

    I opened this thread so I feel somewhat responsible to carry this out to finish. Give me a day or two to contemplate on how to achieve the following:

    1. Communicate what happened clearly and openly to our community.

    2. Communicate to Anatoly the decision to cut him off.

    3. Arrange for feasible technological ways to execute the ban on python.org resources, preparing also for vengeful action (which given the history is unfortunately likely).

    4. Prepare for rectifying unjust PR by the banned person, etc.

    I'm seriously considering writing all this as a PEP (most likely without any personal details). I hope this won't be useful in the future but it might help having this gathered as written policy, if only for transparency reasons.

    What do you think?

    I feel very bad that it has come to this but I strongly believe this is necessary to protect us as a community.

    I think #2 is going to be hard to safely write if you intend to send
    it to python-dev addressed to Anatoly (which I got from #1). The
    shorter the better is my tip. I'm available to review/bikeshed about
    this email if you intend to write it. Also, please only post this to
    one list, preferably -dev and not -ideas.


    #3 can be handled pretty swiftly since the appropriate people are all
    involved in this conversation.


    On #4, whatever you do, please don't get involved in some
    back-and-forth post war and don't go around Reddit trying to further
    justify anything. If people talk, and they will, let them.




    Please don't write this up in a PEP. We're getting flak from all
    directions for code of conduct things on the PyCon/PSF side of things,
    and that's along the lines of what this would be. I actually do have
    some ideas in that area, but that's for another list and another time.
    This should just be an email.
  • Terry Reedy at Dec 26, 2012 at 7:36 am
    This is a continuation of my answer to Christian

    On 12/25/2012 5:56 PM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    Dnia 25 gru 2012 o godz. 13:37 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com>
    napisa?(a):
    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the
    feelings of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his
    obtuseness (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine
    cluelessness) than I care about his feelings. He has the entire
    internet to play on, we don't have to allow him access to
    python.org controlled resources.
    +1

    I opened this thread so I feel somewhat responsible to carry this out
    to finish. Give me a day or two to contemplate on how to achieve the
    following:

    Please do wait. Contemplation and sleep can work wonders.

    1. Communicate what happened clearly and openly to our community.

    I am not sure how broadly you mean 'our community', but please no.
    Nothing need or should be said beyond this list. (Unless Anatoly says
    something elsewhere -- but let him be the first.


    Spam accounts and messages on the tracker are routinely cancelled
    without notice. The one time I know of that a contributor was banned
    (suspended, actually, soon followed by an offer of re-instatement
    without admin privileges), it was pretty much handled privately (though
    I would have preferred notice on this list first).

    2. Communicate to Anatoly the decision to cut him off.

    I think any cut-off should be in stages: tracker, pydev, python-ideas.
    Anything beyond the tracker should be approved by Guido.


    As far as the tracker goes, I think it should be clearly communicated to
    him and everyone in plain English (and specified in the user guide if
    not already) that a) the purpose of the tracker is to help committers
    receive reports, communicate with reporters and others, and to manage
    issues, and b) after an initial report, the administrative fields are
    mostly intended for the use of tracker administrators, including
    committers. The only reason a submitter can edit the status field is so
    that they can close an issue to withdraw it (possible after review). If
    we can enforce that in the database (only admins (or possibly only
    committers) but not the submitter can reopen), I think we should! That
    would eliminate bogus reopenings by anyone, not just Anatoly.


    I say this because he specifically justified his re-open action on the
    basis that *he* also uses the tracker to track issues. So he does not
    quite understand what it is for. As I said in my previous post, if he
    reopens a third time, act. He has not yet that I have seen. I also
    notice that he just 'voted' to reopen http://bugs.python.org/issue7083
    but did not do so himself (possible because he cannot).


    Going a bit further, I actually would not let a non-admin submitter edit
    any field as long as an issue is closed. I see this as a sensible
    refinement of the database policy based on years of experience and not
    directly specifically at Anatoly. Another tweak based on experience
    would be that only committers can set version to security issues. I
    routinely unset 2.6 and 3.1 with a short explanation. Better that the
    ignorant cannot even make that mistake (I know, submit to the metatracker.)

    3. Arrange for feasible technological ways to execute the ban on
    python.org resources,

    See the suggestion above for the tracker. I presume that the mailing
    list software can reject specific users and the the gmane is or can be
    set up to honor rejections. But if that have ever been done, it has been
    done so privately that I am not aware of it. I would ban from pydev
    before I would ban from python-ideas. The latter is intended to be a bit
    more open to off-the-wall posts. I do not see that Anatoly has really
    abused python-ideas. His post today has 16 responses from other people
    and only 1 from him. People could have just ignored him after 1 response.


    Another technological fix: enforce no cross-posting to peps editors list
    and anything else by rejecting cross-posted messages, both at the
    editors list and all other python.org lists. My theme with all these
    suggestions is that making mis-behavior impossible, when possible, is
    preferable to scolding and banning. Pushes to the repository by
    unauthorized people are just rejected. If anyone were to complain
    publicly about such rejection, they would just be laughed at.

    preparing also for vengeful action (which given
    the history is unfortunately likely).

    Shaming anyone publicly is more likely to get such action, and would
    almost make it justified in my view.

    4. Prepare for rectifying unjust PR by the banned person, etc.

    Better to not unnecessarily provoke it, and worry about it when it
    actually happens.


    For months, Jim Fauth (sp?) has repeatedly trashed 3.3 on python-list to
    the point of telling people not to use it, and implicitly slandered us
    developers, because he hates the new Unicode implementation (it is
    'unfair' because some people benefit more than others). I find Jim more
    annoying than Anatoly because unlike Anatoly, he does not acknowledge
    contrary facts or answer questions but just repeats the same stupid or
    irrational generalizations that are based on one fact.


    The one fact is that str.find, and hence str.replace, is much slower in
    3.3 than 3.2. Because of his report of that fact, there is an issue on
    the tracker. Jim will not even acknowledge that he did get an issue
    opened because *that* fact undercuts his narrative about our indifference.


    Anyway:
    1. I find Jim *much* more annoying and destructive than Anatoly. (This
    is possibly one reason Anatoly, by comparison, does not bother me as
    much as others).
    2. The response on python-list is that one or more regulars (sometimes
    me, often others) responds to each repetition, more of less politely and
    rationally, as the spirit moves us. If you are worried about bad PR,
    driving Anatoly to become like Jim on python-list would be the wrong
    thing to do.

    I'm seriously considering writing all this as a PEP (most likely
    without any personal details). I hope this won't be useful in the
    future but it might help having this gathered as written policy, if
    only for transparency reasons.

    This strike me as over-reaction.


    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
  • Georg Brandl at Dec 26, 2012 at 9:07 am
    FWIW, I agree 100% with Terry here. I'm certainly annoyed by many of Anatoly's
    contributions, and find myself extremely unwilling to do anything about his
    perceived issues, but to exclude a community member publicly (!) from all (!)
    python.org resources is going too far IMO. Individual policy violations can and
    should of course be sanctioned.


    cheers,
    Georg



    On 12/26/2012 08:36 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
    This is a continuation of my answer to Christian
    On 12/25/2012 5:56 PM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
    Dnia 25 gru 2012 o godz. 13:37 Nick Coghlan <ncoghlan@gmail.com>
    napisa?(a):
    I'm well and truly to the point of caring far more about the
    feelings of people who get frustrated trying to deal with his
    obtuseness (whether that arises deliberately or through genuine
    cluelessness) than I care about his feelings. He has the entire
    internet to play on, we don't have to allow him access to
    python.org controlled resources.
    +1

    I opened this thread so I feel somewhat responsible to carry this out
    to finish. Give me a day or two to contemplate on how to achieve the
    following:
    Please do wait. Contemplation and sleep can work wonders.
    1. Communicate what happened clearly and openly to our community.
    I am not sure how broadly you mean 'our community', but please no.
    Nothing need or should be said beyond this list. (Unless Anatoly says
    something elsewhere -- but let him be the first.

    Spam accounts and messages on the tracker are routinely cancelled
    without notice. The one time I know of that a contributor was banned
    (suspended, actually, soon followed by an offer of re-instatement
    without admin privileges), it was pretty much handled privately (though
    I would have preferred notice on this list first).
    2. Communicate to Anatoly the decision to cut him off.
    I think any cut-off should be in stages: tracker, pydev, python-ideas.
    Anything beyond the tracker should be approved by Guido.

    As far as the tracker goes, I think it should be clearly communicated to
    him and everyone in plain English (and specified in the user guide if
    not already) that a) the purpose of the tracker is to help committers
    receive reports, communicate with reporters and others, and to manage
    issues, and b) after an initial report, the administrative fields are
    mostly intended for the use of tracker administrators, including
    committers. The only reason a submitter can edit the status field is so
    that they can close an issue to withdraw it (possible after review). If
    we can enforce that in the database (only admins (or possibly only
    committers) but not the submitter can reopen), I think we should! That
    would eliminate bogus reopenings by anyone, not just Anatoly.

    I say this because he specifically justified his re-open action on the
    basis that *he* also uses the tracker to track issues. So he does not
    quite understand what it is for. As I said in my previous post, if he
    reopens a third time, act. He has not yet that I have seen. I also
    notice that he just 'voted' to reopen http://bugs.python.org/issue7083
    but did not do so himself (possible because he cannot).

    Going a bit further, I actually would not let a non-admin submitter edit
    any field as long as an issue is closed. I see this as a sensible
    refinement of the database policy based on years of experience and not
    directly specifically at Anatoly. Another tweak based on experience
    would be that only committers can set version to security issues. I
    routinely unset 2.6 and 3.1 with a short explanation. Better that the
    ignorant cannot even make that mistake (I know, submit to the metatracker.)
    3. Arrange for feasible technological ways to execute the ban on
    python.org resources,
    See the suggestion above for the tracker. I presume that the mailing
    list software can reject specific users and the the gmane is or can be
    set up to honor rejections. But if that have ever been done, it has been
    done so privately that I am not aware of it. I would ban from pydev
    before I would ban from python-ideas. The latter is intended to be a bit
    more open to off-the-wall posts. I do not see that Anatoly has really
    abused python-ideas. His post today has 16 responses from other people
    and only 1 from him. People could have just ignored him after 1 response.

    Another technological fix: enforce no cross-posting to peps editors list
    and anything else by rejecting cross-posted messages, both at the
    editors list and all other python.org lists. My theme with all these
    suggestions is that making mis-behavior impossible, when possible, is
    preferable to scolding and banning. Pushes to the repository by
    unauthorized people are just rejected. If anyone were to complain
    publicly about such rejection, they would just be laughed at.
    preparing also for vengeful action (which given
    the history is unfortunately likely).
    Shaming anyone publicly is more likely to get such action, and would
    almost make it justified in my view.
    4. Prepare for rectifying unjust PR by the banned person, etc.
    Better to not unnecessarily provoke it, and worry about it when it
    actually happens.

    For months, Jim Fauth (sp?) has repeatedly trashed 3.3 on python-list to
    the point of telling people not to use it, and implicitly slandered us
    developers, because he hates the new Unicode implementation (it is
    'unfair' because some people benefit more than others). I find Jim more
    annoying than Anatoly because unlike Anatoly, he does not acknowledge
    contrary facts or answer questions but just repeats the same stupid or
    irrational generalizations that are based on one fact.

    The one fact is that str.find, and hence str.replace, is much slower in
    3.3 than 3.2. Because of his report of that fact, there is an issue on
    the tracker. Jim will not even acknowledge that he did get an issue
    opened because *that* fact undercuts his narrative about our indifference.

    Anyway:
    1. I find Jim *much* more annoying and destructive than Anatoly. (This
    is possibly one reason Anatoly, by comparison, does not bother me as
    much as others).
    2. The response on python-list is that one or more regulars (sometimes
    me, often others) responds to each repetition, more of less politely and
    rationally, as the spirit moves us. If you are worried about bad PR,
    driving Anatoly to become like Jim on python-list would be the wrong
    thing to do.
    I'm seriously considering writing all this as a PEP (most likely
    without any personal details). I hope this won't be useful in the
    future but it might help having this gathered as written policy, if
    only for transparency reasons.
    This strike me as over-reaction.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy


    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
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  • Nick Coghlan at Dec 26, 2012 at 10:36 am

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
    FWIW, I agree 100% with Terry here. I'm certainly annoyed by many of Anatoly's
    contributions, and find myself extremely unwilling to do anything about his
    perceived issues, but to exclude a community member publicly (!) from all (!)
    python.org resources is going too far IMO. Individual policy violations can and
    should of course be sanctioned.

    The problem is the effect he has on other people. He's an energy
    drain: I see the "tektonik" on yet another python-ideas thread or
    tracker issue and just go "Ah, fuck it, I'm gonna go play a computer
    game intead" (or else I reply, and *then* go play a game). Even his
    pointless threads get replies because his vortex of cluelessness draws
    other people in and it becomes necessary to head off the stupidity
    before it becomes a huge sink for wasted effort.


    Energy drains that confine their efforts to python-list don't affect
    me personally, because I don't follow python-list at all (although I
    appreciate the efforts of those that *do* follow it and pass along any
    valid issues that are raised). Anatoly has independently found himself
    routed to /dev/null by multiple core developers (starting way back
    with the "you should all switch to using Google Wave because I prefer
    it" idiocy). He still has no clue what the tracker is for, what
    python-dev is for, what it means for an idea to be "pythonic", what is
    even remotely technically feasible for CPython, and unlike most people
    in that situation, he doesn't even have the courtesy to find his own
    piece of the internet to play in, instead spraying crap over CPython
    core development resources, forcing people to waste their time
    cleaning up after him.


    We've tried fucking hard to educate Anatoly, and help him become a
    productive contributor. It hasn't worked, and he continues to be a net
    productivity loss, whining about things that are just plain hard to
    fix (or are an inherent part of the language design), and making
    actual contributing volunteers feel bad about themselves and their
    work.


    We don't want to be mean to somebody who genuinely appears to be
    trying to help, but eventually we have to look at his net impact and
    say "keeping our productive volunteers happy is more important than
    trying to include someone who has demonstrated over an extended period
    of time that they lack the ability to collaborate effectively". At the
    very least, that means revoking tracker and python-dev posting
    privileges. I'd vote for cutting him off from python-ideas, too.


    Regards,
    Nick.


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Nick Coghlan at Dec 26, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
    We don't want to be mean to somebody who genuinely appears to be
    trying to help, but eventually we have to look at his net impact and
    say "keeping our productive volunteers happy is more important than
    trying to include someone who has demonstrated over an extended period
    of time that they lack the ability to collaborate effectively". At the
    very least, that means revoking tracker and python-dev posting
    privileges. I'd vote for cutting him off from python-ideas, too.

    Something I've realised may not be obvious to everyone - the problem
    isn't low SNR per se (if you dig up some of my early postings to
    python-list and python-dev, you'll find a *lot* of noise, so me
    chastising new posters for low SNR would be the height of hypocrisy),
    as the fact that Anatoly's SNR hasn't improved over the years, despite
    core devs (and others) putting plenty of effort into trying to help
    him learn. The breaking point for me was when he recently declared
    that he was completely unrepentant about the fact that he repeatedly
    wastes other people's time by failing to do his research [1]:


    """It's too boring to live in a world of existing knowledge and
    expertise, and yes, I am not aware of any open collaboration stuff
    expertise. Any reading recommendations with concentrated knowledge
    that can fit my brain?"""


    FFS, it's the internet. Search engines exist. I, for one, am done
    spoon feeding him answers that are off topic for the core Python
    lists, and that he should be able to answer on his own (although I'll
    still reply to other people that reply to him).


    If we start with a suspension rather than a ban, that would also be
    fine by me. As others have noted, we've given *one* tracker suspension
    that I'm aware of and it seemed to work wonders.


    Regards,
    Nick.


    [1] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2012-June/015304.html


    --
    Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan at gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia
  • Ezio Melotti at Dec 26, 2012 at 2:09 pm
    Hi,


    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:

    FWIW, I agree 100% with Terry here. I'm certainly annoyed by many of
    Anatoly's
    contributions, and find myself extremely unwilling to do anything about his
    perceived issues, but to exclude a community member publicly (!) from all
    (!)
    python.org resources is going too far IMO. Individual policy violations
    can and
    should of course be sanctioned.
    I also agree with Terry and Georg.


    I don't think anyone should be banned from the tracker or from the MLs
    unless their actions are intentionally destructive (e.g. flooders/spammers).
    This is not the case for anatoly, so in my opinion we should not take this
    kind of action against him.
    While I mostly lurk on python-dev/ideas, I interacted with him several
    times on the bug and meta trackers, rejecting/closing a number of
    suggestions/issues and accepting a few others. I did so merely on the
    value of the suggestion itself, and I can really easily ignore the tone of
    the message (e.g. frustrated, angry).


    That said, ISTM that the main problem is that the way he communicates is
    not really effective and that results in an "energy drain" for other people.
    This can be addressed on both the sides.
    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the messages
    themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same negative
    feelings. People should be able to recognize when a discussion is not
    constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to prove a
    point or to repeat themselves. (Note that this apply to everyone, and not
    to anatoly in particular).
    Regarding the effectiveness of the communications there's certainty room
    for improvement, but apparently the previous attempts to address the
    problem were unsuccessful. I'm willing to make an attempt myself, as I
    think I have a quite clear idea of the problem.


    Best Regards,
    Ezio Melotti




    cheers,
    Georg
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  • Brian Curtin at Dec 26, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
    That said, ISTM that the main problem is that the way he communicates is not
    really effective and that results in an "energy drain" for other people.
    This can be addressed on both the sides.
    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the messages
    themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same negative
    feelings.

    I've filtered his emails to the trash for almost two years now, but
    I'm not going to ignore that he's now discouraging my friends and
    colleagues from contribution. I already removed myself from the nosy
    list on a bunch of issues he created in the past, and the people who
    were willing to work with him are dropping off. I also will not ignore
    his tone about a GSoC contribution being useless.

    People should be able to recognize when a discussion is not
    constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to prove a
    point or to repeat themselves. (Note that this apply to everyone, and not
    to anatoly in particular).
    Regarding the effectiveness of the communications there's certainty room for
    improvement, but apparently the previous attempts to address the problem
    were unsuccessful. I'm willing to make an attempt myself, as I think I have
    a quite clear idea of the problem.

    You're wasting your time if you think you will be the one to break
    through to him after several people have already talked to him.
    Apparently he even got on Skype with Guido about this. People would
    *pay* to have that chance. Anatoly got it for being a jerk and it
    changed nothing.
  • Guido van Rossum at Dec 26, 2012 at 4:45 pm
    No, I never got on Skype with Anatoly. I did write a very frank email and
    got the usual response. I don't think I am up to doing anything more about
    him. He doesn't bother me that much, I ignore most of his threads. He is a
    reviewer and committer on Rietveld and behaves better there.


    --Guido


    On Wednesday, December 26, 2012, Brian Curtin wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
    That said, ISTM that the main problem is that the way he communicates is not
    really effective and that results in an "energy drain" for other people.
    This can be addressed on both the sides.
    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the messages
    themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same negative
    feelings.
    I've filtered his emails to the trash for almost two years now, but
    I'm not going to ignore that he's now discouraging my friends and
    colleagues from contribution. I already removed myself from the nosy
    list on a bunch of issues he created in the past, and the people who
    were willing to work with him are dropping off. I also will not ignore
    his tone about a GSoC contribution being useless.
    People should be able to recognize when a discussion is not
    constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to prove a
    point or to repeat themselves. (Note that this apply to everyone, and not
    to anatoly in particular).
    Regarding the effectiveness of the communications there's certainty room for
    improvement, but apparently the previous attempts to address the problem
    were unsuccessful. I'm willing to make an attempt myself, as I think I have
    a quite clear idea of the problem.
    You're wasting your time if you think you will be the one to break
    through to him after several people have already talked to him.
    Apparently he even got on Skype with Guido about this. People would
    *pay* to have that chance. Anatoly got it for being a jerk and it
    changed nothing.
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org <javascript:;>
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers



    --
    --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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  • Ezio Melotti at Dec 26, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:


    You're wasting your time if you think you will be the one to break
    through to him after several people have already talked to him.
    Apparently he even got on Skype with Guido about this. People would
    *pay* to have that chance. Anatoly got it for being a jerk and it
    changed nothing.

    So, I contacted him and we chatted for about an hour.
    He said that he's been trying to pay more attention and improve his
    messages lately.
    We went through a list of problems and he was willing to listen (he
    actually seemed more polite than I expected).
    He also seemed somewhat frustrated by the fact that his messages are taken
    in a negative way, because he doesn't mean to be negative.
    I also went through his recent messages on the tracker to find "negative"
    examples but admittedly they mostly seem OK, so I wonder if "our" opinion
    towards him is already negatively biased and leads us to be less tolerant
    with him
    At the end he thanked me for bringing this up with him, and apparently he
    is willing to improve.


    Best Regards,
    Ezio Melotti
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  • R. David Murray at Dec 26, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 18:56:54 +0200, Ezio Melotti wrote:
    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:

    You're wasting your time if you think you will be the one to break
    through to him after several people have already talked to him.
    Apparently he even got on Skype with Guido about this. People would
    *pay* to have that chance. Anatoly got it for being a jerk and it
    changed nothing.
    So, I contacted him and we chatted for about an hour.
    He said that he's been trying to pay more attention and improve his
    messages lately.
    We went through a list of problems and he was willing to listen (he
    actually seemed more polite than I expected).
    He also seemed somewhat frustrated by the fact that his messages are taken
    in a negative way, because he doesn't mean to be negative.
    I also went through his recent messages on the tracker to find "negative"
    examples but admittedly they mostly seem OK, so I wonder if "our" opinion
    towards him is already negatively biased and leads us to be less tolerant
    with him
    At the end he thanked me for bringing this up with him, and apparently he
    is willing to improve.

    This is great.


    Certainly my reading of the issue title I mentioned in my previous email
    was an overreaction. I will do my best to reset my personal filters :)


    --David
  • Łukasz Langa at Dec 26, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Wiadomo?? napisana przez Ezio Melotti <ezio.melotti@gmail.com> w dniu 26 gru 2012, o godz. 17:56:


    At the end he thanked me for bringing this up with him, and apparently he is willing to improve.

    Full disclosure: I'm not buying it.


    But I'd *love* to be proven wrong and am willing to give him time to show that his attitude improved. At worst, we can treat your conversation as the "explicit warning" other committers asked about.


    --
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
  • Antoine Pitrou at Dec 26, 2012 at 4:58 pm
    Hello,


    I agree with Brian and Nick. While I don't bother much with Anatoly
    anymore (I ignore at least 95% of his postings), I think it is not nice
    to let newcomers deal with the cognitive overhead of reading and
    appreciating his ramblings.


    That said he doesn't need to be banned from *all* of python.org. Each
    mailing-list can take individual action. And the justification needn't
    be verbose. A two-line public message saying "For the record, Anatoly
    Techtonik has been banned from this mailing-list after the request of
    numerous contributors" is enough.


    Regards


    Antoine.



    Le mercredi 26 d?cembre 2012 ? 08:18 -0600, Brian Curtin a ?crit :
    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
    That said, ISTM that the main problem is that the way he communicates is not
    really effective and that results in an "energy drain" for other people.
    This can be addressed on both the sides.
    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the messages
    themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same negative
    feelings.
    I've filtered his emails to the trash for almost two years now, but
    I'm not going to ignore that he's now discouraging my friends and
    colleagues from contribution. I already removed myself from the nosy
    list on a bunch of issues he created in the past, and the people who
    were willing to work with him are dropping off. I also will not ignore
    his tone about a GSoC contribution being useless.
    People should be able to recognize when a discussion is not
    constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to prove a
    point or to repeat themselves. (Note that this apply to everyone, and not
    to anatoly in particular).
    Regarding the effectiveness of the communications there's certainty room for
    improvement, but apparently the previous attempts to address the problem
    were unsuccessful. I'm willing to make an attempt myself, as I think I have
    a quite clear idea of the problem.
    You're wasting your time if you think you will be the one to break
    through to him after several people have already talked to him.
    Apparently he even got on Skype with Guido about this. People would
    *pay* to have that chance. Anatoly got it for being a jerk and it
    changed nothing.
    _______________________________________________
    python-committers mailing list
    python-committers at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
  • Łukasz Langa at Dec 26, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Dnia 26 gru 2012 o godz. 15:09 Ezio Melotti <ezio.melotti@gmail.com> napisa?(a):


    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the messages themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same negative feelings. People should be able to recognize when a discussion is not constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to prove a point or to repeat themselves.



    The problem I see with that suggestion is that in reality we have to work with what we have, not with what we think we should have.


    I don't want to spell out names but I've had more than one discussion at conferences this year with people _afraid_ to get involved with core development on the base of having to deal with behaviour like this. In one case the comment was simply "I don't have time to deal with [people] like him." The other case was sadder though: "Looks like you core devs have trouble dealing with criticism, as shown by Anatoly."


    We strive to be a welcoming bunch and I'm convinced that a part of this is to call out anti-social behaviour and stop it. Otherwise our playground stops looking like a fun and safe place to contribute.


    This is not elitism nor censorship but a simple manner of respecting each other. Think: out of respect for Guido's (or other senior devs') time we should put an end to this. Judging from the YouTube view count, humanity has spent over 3000 years watching Gangnam Style. How much time did humanity spend on this thread and all other non-constructive threads/issues fired by Anatoly?


    --
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
  • Ezio Melotti at Dec 26, 2012 at 4:20 pm

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 5:07 PM, ?ukasz Langa wrote:


    Dnia 26 gru 2012 o godz. 15:09 Ezio Melotti <ezio.melotti@gmail.com>
    napisa?(a):
    The community should ignore the tone of the messages or even the
    messages themselves and most importantly avoid replies that convey the same
    negative feelings. People should be able to recognize when a discussion is
    not constructive anymore and leave it, rather than wasting time just to
    prove a point or to repeat themselves.


    The problem I see with that suggestion is that in reality we have to work
    with what we have, not with what we think we should have.

    I don't want to spell out names but I've had more than one discussion at
    conferences this year with people _afraid_ to get involved with core
    development on the base of having to deal with behaviour like this. In one
    case the comment was simply "I don't have time to deal with [people] like
    him."



    This is somewhat surprising to me. Why would they have to deal with him?
    If the "people like him" were the core developers I could understand the
    problem, but he is just one of the many contributors.



    The other case was sadder though: "Looks like you core devs have trouble
    dealing with criticism, as shown by Anatoly."
    I'm not sure I understand this. ISTM that the problem here is with core
    devs, that are unable to deal with criticism (and have to resort to bans ;)
    rather than with him.



    We strive to be a welcoming bunch and I'm convinced that a part of this is
    to call out anti-social behaviour and stop it. Otherwise our playground
    stops looking like a fun and safe place to contribute.
    And a side effect of being welcoming is that you get every kind of people.
    Different people have different behaviors and skills. I don't think his
    lack of social skills is worse than e.g. the lack of English skills of some
    of the contributors. In both cases the intentions are not bad, but the
    message might be difficult to understand and thus can be misunderstood.
    These people shouldn't be marginalized just because of their lack of skills.
    As an example, I recently found out that one contributor on the tracker
    that sounded somewhat annoying actually was a ~10 years old kid. From that
    point of view his contributions went from somewhat annoying to quite
    impressive (and I think some of his patches have been committed too).
    Of course if people have an intentionally destructive behavior they can be
    stopped.



    This is not elitism nor censorship but a simple manner of respecting each
    other. Think: out of respect for Guido's (or other senior devs') time



    I heard this argument several time, but I'm not sure it's a really strong
    one. No one is forced to spend his time in any specific way. Granted, as
    a contributor you end up spending some of your time for this kind of things
    as well, but that also includes skimming through mails/comments that you
    don't care about, tell people that they wrote to wrong ML, that the issue
    they reported is invalid and so on.
    If people spend time reading his messages and responding to him, I assume
    they have reasons to do it. If this turns out to be ineffective they
    should stop.



    we should put an end to this. Judging from the YouTube view count,
    humanity has spent over 3000 years watching Gangnam Style. How much time
    did humanity spend on this thread and all other non-constructive
    threads/issues fired by Anatoly?
    This is not necessarily non-constructive. We have identified a problem and
    we are discussing about the possible ways it can be solved, while learning
    how to deal with similar problem should they occur again in the future.


    Best Regards,
    Ezio Melotti


    P.S. I haven't seen Gangnam Style yet -- I'm too busy tweaking rst markup
    in the docs :)



    --e.g.
    Best regards,
    ?ukasz Langa
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  • Brian Curtin at Dec 26, 2012 at 4:38 pm

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Ezio Melotti wrote:
    And a side effect of being welcoming is that you get every kind of people.
    Different people have different behaviors and skills. I don't think his
    lack of social skills is worse than e.g. the lack of English skills of some
    of the contributors. In both cases the intentions are not bad, but the
    message might be difficult to understand and thus can be misunderstood.
    These people shouldn't be marginalized just because of their lack of skills.

    Now we're just trying to marginalize abuse. There is no lack of skills
    that is causing this, and it's not any sort of misunderstanding. Nick
    has presented numerous examples of this.

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