FAQ
From looking at the FAQ it appears that one can only remove mailing
list archives if one has shell access. Is that correct ?

If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?


Regards, John.

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  • Steve Burling at Jan 9, 2010 at 1:07 am
    --On January 9, 2010 11:46:05 AM +1100 John Fitzsimons
    wrote:
    From looking at the FAQ it appears that one can only remove mailing
    list archives if one has shell access. Is that correct ?

    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
    remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?
    To which I reply:

    You'll have to ask the CPanel folks about that.
  • Mark Sapiro at Jan 9, 2010 at 1:12 am

    John Fitzsimons wrote:
    From looking at the FAQ it appears that one can only remove mailing
    list archives if one has shell access. Is that correct ?

    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
    remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?

    It is not strictly necessary to have access to a traditional shell.
    cPanel or a hosting provider could provide some kind of control panel
    or web service to do this, but those things do not exist in GNU
    Mailman as released.

    There are going to be more archiving choices in MM3 via a plugin
    architecture. We would also like to give list admins more control over
    their list's archives. How that will translate into a cPanel package
    if at all is beyond our ability to predict.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Jan 9, 2010 at 2:32 am
    John Fitzsimons writes:
    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
    remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?
    John, it's not called "free software" because you pay nothing for it.
    It's call "free software" because you, and I, and the general public
    are licensed to do almost anything with the software. The only
    condition in this license that matters is that if we redistribute any
    form of Mailman, we must provide the *recipient* with the source code
    of the program. (Note: *not* "the public"; that's important.)

    The company that provides cPanel has taken advantage of this license
    offered to *all* in the public to incorporate GNU Mailman in their
    hosting product. This relationship is entirely one-sided: they take
    the Mailman code, but have *never* provided any input to development
    or support of Mailman users that I know of.

    Yes, CPanel has its conveniences. It also has its inconveniences, and
    *those are entirely your problem* because we have no claim at all on
    cPanel's attention, by the *vendor's* choice. Please stop posting
    about cPanel here, and take responsibility for *your* choice.

    If you want to help, including helping yourself, you can

    (1) Go talk to your service provider, and see if you can get them to
    give you a copy of the cPanel version of Mailman. Make a diff and
    post it online, and to the mailman-developers at python.org mailing
    list. According to the Mailman license, if you can get somebody
    to voluntarily give you a copy of a legitimately received copy,
    you do have the right to do that. In the future, if you have a
    problem (bug) with cPanel Mailman, you can point the developers to
    that copy, and (if they have time), you may get some help.

    Missing features are still your problem, whether they are
    something that cPanel has subtracted or something that Mailman
    could do but doesn't. You might get some sympathy for the latter,
    of course.

    (2) Talk to the cPanel people, find out what their plans are, and post
    the answers here. If they ask you *not* to do that, post simply
    that fact. Better yet, add either kind of answer to the FAQ on
    cPanel.

    These are not things Mailman developers can do *for* you. These
    companies talk only to their customers (if they even do that).

    Alteratively, you could bite the bullet, and ask for help in
    installing your own Mailman, and have access to all the facilities, as
    well as receiving much more detailed (not to mention enthusiastic)
    help on this list and (often) in private.

    It's called "free software" because *the choice is yours*.
  • Brian Carpenter at Jan 9, 2010 at 3:06 am

    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Stephen J.
    Turnbull
    Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:33 PM
    To: John Fitzsimons
    Cc: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing archives query.

    John Fitzsimons writes:
    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
    remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?
    John, it's not called "free software" because you pay nothing for it.
    It's call "free software" because you, and I, and the general public
    are licensed to do almost anything with the software. The only
    condition in this license that matters is that if we redistribute any
    form of Mailman, we must provide the *recipient* with the source code
    of the program. (Note: *not* "the public"; that's important.)

    The company that provides cPanel has taken advantage of this license
    offered to *all* in the public to incorporate GNU Mailman in their
    hosting product. This relationship is entirely one-sided: they take
    the Mailman code, but have *never* provided any input to development
    or support of Mailman users that I know of.

    Yes, CPanel has its conveniences. It also has its inconveniences, and
    *those are entirely your problem* because we have no claim at all on
    cPanel's attention, by the *vendor's* choice. Please stop posting
    about cPanel here, and take responsibility for *your* choice.

    If you want to help, including helping yourself, you can

    (1) Go talk to your service provider, and see if you can get them to
    give you a copy of the cPanel version of Mailman. Make a diff and
    post it online, and to the mailman-developers at python.org mailing
    list. According to the Mailman license, if you can get somebody
    to voluntarily give you a copy of a legitimately received copy,
    you do have the right to do that. In the future, if you have a
    problem (bug) with cPanel Mailman, you can point the developers to
    that copy, and (if they have time), you may get some help.

    Missing features are still your problem, whether they are
    something that cPanel has subtracted or something that Mailman
    could do but doesn't. You might get some sympathy for the latter,
    of course.

    (2) Talk to the cPanel people, find out what their plans are, and post
    the answers here. If they ask you *not* to do that, post simply
    that fact. Better yet, add either kind of answer to the FAQ on
    cPanel.

    These are not things Mailman developers can do *for* you. These
    companies talk only to their customers (if they even do that).

    Alteratively, you could bite the bullet, and ask for help in
    installing your own Mailman, and have access to all the facilities, as
    well as receiving much more detailed (not to mention enthusiastic)
    help on this list and (often) in private.

    It's called "free software" because *the choice is yours*.
    Wow! That is a harsh reply.

    I think all John was trying to find out was how to remove their archives
    without having direct access to the backend of mailman. Unfortunately there
    is not. However John's hosting company should be able to assist him in doing
    that. We have when requested by our own clients.

    He is really not posting about cPanel here. He is simply trying to get some
    assistance with Mailman which he is using via his cPanel hosting account. He
    may be perhaps confused about the relationship between cPanel and Mailman
    which is understandable.

    On a positive note, cPanel has introduce a large number of folks to Mailman
    who would have otherwise been ignorant of its existence.

    Brian
    EMWD.com
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Jan 10, 2010 at 11:03 am
    Brian Carpenter writes:
    John Fitzsimons writes:
    > >
    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be
    able to remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?
    John, it's not called "free software" because you pay nothing for
    it. It's call "free software" because you, and I, and the
    general public are licensed to do almost anything with the
    software.
    Wow! That is a harsh reply.
    Heh. If you don't like my writing style, well, I'm aware of (some of)
    my deficiencies. Feel free to preempt my posts with your own. I'll
    be almost as happy as everyone else.<wink>

    Maybe my reply was harsh. The realities facing free software projects
    are harsh, too. The OP has as yet contributed nothing, and he is
    implicitly asking the Mailman project to put effort into a feature
    that benefits primarily people who are using a product that also
    returns nothing to Mailman, and mostly serves to add value to services
    that return nothing to Mailman and provide insufficient support to
    their own customers.

    Now, there is no legal requirement whatsoever that users *contribute*
    anything back (and IMHO, no ethical requirement either). He is not
    even bound by the GPL since he doesn't actually have the software
    himself IIUC. But most people do want to contribute something. He
    has made it plain that his technical skills make it difficult for him
    to do much in the way of code or user support; I offered a detailed
    plan for how he *could* help *if he wants to*.

    I should explain why I believe *this* feature doesn't really benefit
    Mailman itself. It requires destroying data, on behalf of people who
    almost by definition don't know exactly what they're doing. In some
    cases, doing this properly would require ensuring a fresh backup
    before removing that data, and that is something that the host
    administrator must do, and he should provide advice to the (naive)
    user before it is done.
    He is really not posting about cPanel here. He is simply trying to
    get some assistance with Mailman which he is using via his cPanel
    hosting account.
    That is a rather generous interpretation of the words you quote
    above, and especially in context. He made it quite plain that cPanel
    is an important, perhaps essential, ingredient in his use of Mailman.
    He may be perhaps confused about the relationship between cPanel
    and Mailman which is understandable.
    Indeed, and the main point of my post was to clarify that
    relationship, and to elucidate the "software ecosystem" that supports
    the services he is using.
    On a positive note, cPanel has introduce a large number of folks to
    Mailman who would have otherwise been ignorant of its existence.
    Yes, on false pretenses, it would seem. If cPanel and hosting
    services using cPanel would provide proper support to their users,
    *they* would be posting here requesting the feature (not to mention
    offering financial support). With "friends" like that....

    I have no objection to commercial use of free software. For example,
    I am very pleased that you are present on the list -- the fact that
    you offer a good value proposition for people who can afford your
    rather modest fees is a Really Good Thing[tm] for Mailman. OTOH,
    cPanel has for years been withholding their sources from the
    community, and (some) hosting companies using cPanel have similarly
    been shuffling off their support responsibilities onto the Mailman
    developers and supporters for equally long.

    Now the legal obligation of cPanel is nil, and the ethical obligation
    is in some sense moot (we knew about this when we chose to contribute
    to a GPLed project). But since *we* *are* going try to help cPanel
    users who show up here, it would be really nice to have access to a
    reasonably fresh copy of those sources. They *must* come from a
    cPanel customer; the GPL does not permit us to just go out and grab
    them.

    That is something he may be able to do for us, if he wants to.

    --
    Ask not how you can "do" free software business.
    Rather ask, "What can my business do for software freedom?"
  • William Bagwell at Jan 10, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    On Sunday 10 January 2010, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
    snip

    I should explain why I believe *this* feature doesn't really benefit
    Mailman itself. It requires destroying data, on behalf of people who
    almost by definition don't know exactly what they're doing. In some
    cases, doing this properly would require ensuring a fresh backup
    before removing that data, and that is something that the host
    administrator must do, and he should provide advice to the (naive)
    user before it is done.
    Respectively disagree. Even end users of a mailing list can download
    Gzip'd copies of the archives. The list owner can turn archiving off and
    the domain administrator (cPanel end user) can *delete* the entire list
    if they desire. What none of these people can do is simply edit the
    archives. Spam, blocks of older posts when the plan runs out of space,
    even Aunt Bee's secret pickle recipe all must await support at the
    hosting company to remove.

    Personally know more list owners I would trust with this task than level 1
    support personal.

    Also believe this feature would be usefull for list owners of any flavor
    of Mailman. Guessing (hoping) cPanel would jump at the chance to pass it
    to their customers. Reducing support requests is also a good thing:)
    snip
    Now the legal obligation of cPanel is nil, and the ethical obligation
    is in some sense moot (we knew about this when we chose to contribute
    to a GPLed project). But since *we* *are* going try to help cPanel
    users who show up here, it would be really nice to have access to a
    reasonably fresh copy of those sources. They *must* come from a
    cPanel customer; the GPL does not permit us to just go out and grab
    them.

    That is something he may be able to do for us, if he wants to.
    If John F. has no luck with his hosting provider I will try mine.
    --
    William
  • Adam McGreggor at Jan 10, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 10:42:58AM -0500, William Bagwell wrote:
    Respectively disagree. Even end users of a mailing list can download
    Gzip'd copies of the archives. The list owner can turn archiving off and
    the domain administrator (cPanel end user) can *delete* the entire list
    if they desire. What none of these people can do is simply edit the
    archives.
    Without shell access, in 'proper' Mailman, editing archives via a
    web-interface isn't a feature.

    It does look (on a quick check) like Barry's implementing something to
    allow deletion of messages in Mailman 3;

    see
    <http://is.gd/60T6L> /
    <http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/annotate/head%3A/src/mailman/docs/messagestore.txt>

    and the 'Deleting messages from the store' section (in the rev I'm
    looking at lines 95 -> 116.
    Spam, blocks of older posts when the plan runs out of space,
    even Aunt Bee's secret pickle recipe all must await support at the
    hosting company to remove.
    Hum, that makes me think there aren't that many calls for this sort of
    thing. The lazy hosting SysAdmin in me would think, "oh, they want to
    do this. I imagine others would too. Let me write something to do
    that".

    It's very rare that I have to edit list-archives. I hate doing it.
    Even with mutt against the mbox. It's still a complete pain (not least
    for breaking URIs). (That aspect is fixed in MM3, though.)
    Personally know more list owners I would trust with this task than level 1
    support personal.
    In which case, empower (or get others who can to) the list-owners to
    so do. It makes sense for companies to listen to their customers.

    --
    ``I speak better English than this villain Bush.''
    (Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, attrib.)
  • Russell Clemings at Jan 9, 2010 at 4:01 pm
    Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why can't the OP just go into
    the Mailman web admin page and set the archiving options like anybody else?

    I have a cPanel VPS with shell access so I create all my lists there. But I
    just set up a test list within cPanel and was able to get to the web admin
    page by selecting "mail," then "mailing lists," then "edit" for the
    appropriate list. You'll need to supply the password you specified when you
    created the list.

    Then just go to "archiving options" and make your changes.

    rac

    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Brian Carpenter" <brian at emwd.com>
    To: "'Stephen J. Turnbull'" <stephen at xemacs.org>, "'John Fitzsimons'" <
    johnf at net2000.com.au>
    Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:06:21 -0500
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Removing archives query.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org [mailto:mailman-
    users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Stephen J.
    Turnbull
    Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:33 PM
    To: John Fitzsimons
    Cc: mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: [Mailman-Users] Removing archives query.

    John Fitzsimons writes:
    If it is then are there any plans for us CPanel users to be able to
    remove archives in a future Mailman release please ?
    John, it's not called "free software" because you pay nothing for it.
    It's call "free software" because you, and I, and the general public
    are licensed to do almost anything with the software. The only
    condition in this license that matters is that if we redistribute any
    form of Mailman, we must provide the *recipient* with the source code
    of the program. (Note: *not* "the public"; that's important.)

    The company that provides cPanel has taken advantage of this license
    offered to *all* in the public to incorporate GNU Mailman in their
    hosting product. This relationship is entirely one-sided: they take
    the Mailman code, but have *never* provided any input to development
    or support of Mailman users that I know of.

    Yes, CPanel has its conveniences. It also has its inconveniences, and
    *those are entirely your problem* because we have no claim at all on
    cPanel's attention, by the *vendor's* choice. Please stop posting
    about cPanel here, and take responsibility for *your* choice.

    If you want to help, including helping yourself, you can

    (1) Go talk to your service provider, and see if you can get them to
    give you a copy of the cPanel version of Mailman. Make a diff and
    post it online, and to the mailman-developers at python.org mailing
    list. According to the Mailman license, if you can get somebody
    to voluntarily give you a copy of a legitimately received copy,
    you do have the right to do that. In the future, if you have a
    problem (bug) with cPanel Mailman, you can point the developers to
    that copy, and (if they have time), you may get some help.

    Missing features are still your problem, whether they are
    something that cPanel has subtracted or something that Mailman
    could do but doesn't. You might get some sympathy for the latter,
    of course.

    (2) Talk to the cPanel people, find out what their plans are, and post
    the answers here. If they ask you *not* to do that, post simply
    that fact. Better yet, add either kind of answer to the FAQ on
    cPanel.

    These are not things Mailman developers can do *for* you. These
    companies talk only to their customers (if they even do that).

    Alteratively, you could bite the bullet, and ask for help in
    installing your own Mailman, and have access to all the facilities, as
    well as receiving much more detailed (not to mention enthusiastic)
    help on this list and (often) in private.

    It's called "free software" because *the choice is yours*.
    Wow! That is a harsh reply.

    I think all John was trying to find out was how to remove their archives
    without having direct access to the backend of mailman. Unfortunately there
    is not. However John's hosting company should be able to assist him in
    doing
    that. We have when requested by our own clients.

    He is really not posting about cPanel here. He is simply trying to get some
    assistance with Mailman which he is using via his cPanel hosting account.
    He
    may be perhaps confused about the relationship between cPanel and Mailman
    which is understandable.

    On a positive note, cPanel has introduce a large number of folks to Mailman
    who would have otherwise been ignorant of its existence.

    Brian
    EMWD.com



    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
    Searchable Archives:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
  • Mark Sapiro at Jan 9, 2010 at 4:12 pm

    Russell Clemings wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why can't the OP just go into
    the Mailman web admin page and set the archiving options like anybody else?

    He doesn't want to change the list's archiving settings. He wants to
    delete older posts from the archive to free up storage space.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

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