FAQ
Two problems:

1. You have image(s) sent in the email. They ideally are better sourced to
a server. (It also make the email smaller and transmits faster.)
2. You are adding a footer to a mime message. That will quite often create
havoc with the message. Make the footer part of the standard HTML coding,
and you should be fine. See
http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId@30707

Also, whatever you are using to create the HTML code is creating errors.

<div align="center"><font face="Verdana" size="1">&lt;&lt;please
forward&gt;&gt;</font>

Get something that makes the code directly, and does not add all the "3D" and
change your "<" and ">" codes, as a start.

I aways recommend to use full personalization, too, in Mailman. Without it
the bounce processing does not work as well.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Salm, PhD" <edward at LambdaEnt.com>
To: <mailman-users at python.org>
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:11:40 -0700
Subject: [Mailman-Users] HTML table code broken via Mailman
I have an email blast that I contains tables and other HTML code. I sent the
same message directly to my email account, and also through mailman. When
sent directly, it is just fine; when sent via Mailman it is not.

Mailman is changing something which is breaking the code. I cannot figure
out what mailman has done.

I need help ASAP. This email distribution must go out right away. I have
posted source code and screenshots here:

http://www.lambdaent.com/pub/mailman/


Thank you!


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  • Edward Salm, PhD at Oct 5, 2008 at 9:14 am
    = is the escape code for a "=". That is "direct" HTML as translated.
    Regular HTML was used, so that part you were incorrect.

    However...
    You were right on the money about the footer! Wow, that did it. Thank you.

    What do you mean "full personalization"? I don't know what you are referring
    to?

    On 10/4/08 11:41 PM, "Lloyd Tennison" wrote:

    Two problems:

    1. You have image(s) sent in the email. They ideally are better sourced to
    a server. (It also make the email smaller and transmits faster.)
    2. You are adding a footer to a mime message. That will quite often create
    havoc with the message. Make the footer part of the standard HTML coding,
    and you should be fine. See
    http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId@30707

    Also, whatever you are using to create the HTML code is creating errors.

    <div align="center"><font face="Verdana" size="1">&lt;&lt;please
    forward&gt;&gt;</font>

    Get something that makes the code directly, and does not add all the "3D" and
    change your "<" and ">" codes, as a start.

    I aways recommend to use full personalization, too, in Mailman. Without it
    the bounce processing does not work as well.
  • Lloyd Tennison at Oct 5, 2008 at 10:21 am
    Outlook and Outlook Express adds the translating, but most other email
    clients do not.

    As to Personalization:

    Look at Non-Digest Options, the second option should be:

    Should Mailman personalize each non-digest delivery? This is often useful for
    announce-only lists, but read the details section for a discussion of
    important performance issues.
    (Details for personalize)

    No
    Yes
    Full Personalization

    Full Personalization is preferred if you want to track, as that uses full
    VERP.

    Note: Some hosts do not have that option enabled. Many will enable it if you
    ask. It is a simple configuration change that takes seconds to do.



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Edward Salm, PhD" <edward at LambdaEnt.com>
    To: <mailman-users at python.org>, <lists at viplist.us>
    Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:14:54 -0700
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] HTML table code broken via Mailman
    = is the escape code for a "=". That is "direct" HTML as translated.
    Regular HTML was used, so that part you were incorrect.

    However...
    You were right on the money about the footer! Wow, that did it. Thank you.

    What do you mean "full personalization"? I don't know what you are referring
    to?

    On 10/4/08 11:41 PM, "Lloyd Tennison" wrote:

    Two problems:

    1. You have image(s) sent in the email. They ideally are better
    sourced to
    a server. (It also make the email smaller and transmits faster.)
    2. You are adding a footer to a mime message. That will quite often
    create
    havoc with the message. Make the footer part of the standard HTML coding,
    and you should be fine. See
    http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId@30707

    Also, whatever you are using to create the HTML code is creating errors.

    <div align="center"><font face="Verdana" size="1">&lt;&lt;please
    forward&gt;&gt;</font>

    Get something that makes the code directly, and does not add all the "3D"
    and
    change your "<" and ">" codes, as a start.

    I aways recommend to use full personalization, too, in Mailman. Without
    it
    the bounce processing does not work as well.
  • Edward Salm, PhD at Oct 5, 2008 at 10:47 am
    The email programs that sent the mail both Apple Mail and Thunderbird, so it
    appears that Microsoft is not the only culprit. I would have assumed
    (perhaps incorrectly) that Thunderbird uses "standards".

    I have just contacted my webhost, hostforweb.com, regarding the
    Personalization option, as well as cron/disbaled.

    We're getting closer!

    On 10/5/08 3:21 AM, "Lloyd Tennison" wrote:

    Outlook and Outlook Express adds the translating, but most other email
    clients do not.

    As to Personalization:

    Look at Non-Digest Options, the second option should be:

    Should Mailman personalize each non-digest delivery? This is often useful for
    announce-only lists, but read the details section for a discussion of
    important performance issues.
    (Details for personalize)

    No
    Yes
    Full Personalization

    Full Personalization is preferred if you want to track, as that uses full
    VERP.

    Note: Some hosts do not have that option enabled. Many will enable it if you
    ask. It is a simple configuration change that takes seconds to do.
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 5, 2008 at 3:33 pm
    Lloyd Tennison quoted Edward Salm, PhD
    However...
    You were right on the money about the footer! Wow, that did it. Thank you.

    It is known that cPanel Mailman's addition of msg_footer to HTML parts
    is broken. See <http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?ta603>. You
    will need to register at the cPanel forums site to see that post, but
    since you are having problems with cPanel Mailman, you may want to do
    that anyway so you can report your problems to the people who broke
    the code.


    FWIW, I sent your original directly-source.txt message through a test
    list of mine with a msg_footer added, and it came through just fine. a
    T'Bird screen shot will be at <http://www.msapiro.net/from_list.png>
    for a day or two if you're interested.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Edward Salm, PhD at Oct 5, 2008 at 8:10 pm
    Thanks to everyone. All problems solved.

    That is, after I sent the message and found out my host had a 500/hour
    limit. *(@&*(#&!@!! They raised it temporarily, and it was just sent.

    Whew.

    This was my first time working with mailman. It was a little quirky, but
    everything worked out.

    Again, thanks for your patience and diligence.


    --
    Edward Salm, PhD
    Lambda Enterprises
    edward at LambdaEnt.com
    www.LambdaEnt.com
    213 483 4800


    "[Personhole] is not an acceptable de-sexed word."
    -- Shirley Dean, councilperson, Berkeley (CA) City Council, explaining why
    the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request back to manhole
    cover.
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 5, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Lloyd Tennison wrote:
    I aways recommend to use full personalization, too, in Mailman. Without it
    the bounce processing does not work as well.

    Personalization or full personalization only affects bounce processing
    if

    VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes

    in mm_cfg.py. The thing which improves bounce recognition is VERP, not
    personalization and you can enable VERP without personalization by
    setting

    VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Lloyd Tennison at Oct 5, 2008 at 10:22 pm
    I thought they all still did not work, as stated in the FAQ's. Good to know.
    I will have to test it and see myself.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
    To: lists at viplist.us, "Edward Salm, PhD" <edward at LambdaEnt.com>,
    mailman-users at python.org
    Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 08:33:57 -0700
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] HTML table code broken via Mailman
    Lloyd Tennison quoted Edward Salm, PhD
    However...
    You were right on the money about the footer! Wow, that did it. Thank
    you.

    It is known that cPanel Mailman's addition of msg_footer to HTML parts
    is broken. See <http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?ta603>. You
    will need to register at the cPanel forums site to see that post, but
    since you are having problems with cPanel Mailman, you may want to do
    that anyway so you can report your problems to the people who broke
    the code.


    FWIW, I sent your original directly-source.txt message through a test
    list of mine with a msg_footer added, and it came through just fine. a
    T'Bird screen shot will be at <http://www.msapiro.net/from_list.png>
    for a day or two if you're interested.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 6, 2008 at 12:29 am

    Lloyd Tennison wrote:
    I thought they all still did not work, as stated in the FAQ's. Good to know.
    I will have to test it and see myself.

    Whether or not it works depends on your definition of 'work'. I'm not
    trying to contradict the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9> which is
    a good summary of the situation.

    Actually adding the footer to the text/html part is very difficult to
    get right as explained in the FAQ and as evidenced by the fact that
    cPanel's attempt to do this tends to fail miserably when there are
    attached images referenced in the text/html part.

    That is why GNU Mailman doesn't try to do it, but simply adds the
    footer as a separate MIME part. Some MUAs, e.g. Thunderbird as
    evidenced by <http://www.msapiro.net/from_list.png>, do a reasonable
    job of rendering such a message. Other MUAs don't do so well.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>
    <snip>
    It is known that cPanel Mailman's addition of msg_footer to HTML parts
    is broken. See <http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?ta603>. You
    will need to register at the cPanel forums site to see that post, but
    since you are having problems with cPanel Mailman, you may want to do
    that anyway so you can report your problems to the people who broke
    the code.


    FWIW, I sent your original directly-source.txt message through a test
    list of mine with a msg_footer added, and it came through just fine. a
    T'Bird screen shot will be at <http://www.msapiro.net/from_list.png>
    for a day or two if you're interested.
    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Nitin Bhadauria at Oct 6, 2008 at 10:31 am
    Dear All,

    One of my list with 6000 users is not sending mail to all the users of a
    same domain, I search over the logs of postfix and the only error i
    found is some of the user on the domain are not accepting the mails........

    reply: '550 <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in
    virtual mailbox table\r\n'
    reply: retcode (550); Msg: <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected:
    User unknown in virtual mailbox table

    Is it possible that mailman is not sending mails to all the users on the
    domain or mails are send domain wise so all the mail stuck. Any way i
    didn't find any thing in the qfiles.

    Please help me out ...........

    Thanks
    Nitin
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 6, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
    One of my list with 6000 users is not sending mail to all the users of a
    same domain, I search over the logs of postfix and the only error i
    found is some of the user on the domain are not accepting the mails........

    reply: '550 <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in
    virtual mailbox table\r\n'
    reply: retcode (550); Msg: <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected:
    User unknown in virtual mailbox table

    And do you see mail being accepted for the users who don't receive it.

    The most likely cause of this is the recipient domain is accepting the
    mail and then discarding it as spam (or delivering it to the users'
    spam or bulk folders). See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9>.

    Is it possible that mailman is not sending mails to all the users on the
    domain or mails are send domain wise so all the mail stuck. Any way i
    didn't find any thing in the qfiles.

    and followed up:
    When i check the qfiles they are empty but if i restart mailman it start
    sending all pending mails again is that any where else mailman store
    pending mails request ...
    No.

    As far as the main delivery path is concerned, incoming mail is placed
    in a queue entry in qfiles/in. That queue entry is picked up by
    IncomingRunner and is processed through a pipeline of handlers and
    ultimately queued in qfiles/out for delivery. That entry is picked up
    by OutgoingRunner which delivers messages with from one to hundreds of
    recipients via SMTP to your Postfix. At that point (after delivery is
    complete), it writes the 'post' log entry and the 'smtp' log entry
    (<message-id> smtp to list for nnn recips, completed in nn.nnn
    seconds).

    When the above log entry is written, the mail has all been passed to
    Postfix and is no longer in Mailman except for things like archives
    and digests. If any SMTP errors occur between Mailman and Postfix,
    they are logged in 'smtp-failure' and if retryable, the message with
    the failed recipient list is queued in qfiles/retry where it will be
    picked up by RetryRunner and requed in qfiles/out after a delay.

    If there are no files in qfiles/in/, qfiles/out/ or qfiles/retry,
    Mailman is done with message delivery, and it's all in Postfix.
    Restarting Mailman can't affect that message unless it is being
    processed by a runner at the time of restart in which case, there may
    be a .bak file in a queue which will be reprocessed when Mailman
    restarts.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Nitin Bhadauria at Oct 7, 2008 at 6:05 am
    Dear Sir,

    I found the problem the "Bounce processing" option was disabled. The
    mailman send the mail to 500 rcpt at once because of the 20 user are
    says User unknown in virtual mailbox table so all the 500 mails are keep
    bouncing between mailman and postfix.

    Thanks
    Nitin Bhadauria

    Mark Sapiro wrote:
    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
    One of my list with 6000 users is not sending mail to all the users of a
    same domain, I search over the logs of postfix and the only error i
    found is some of the user on the domain are not accepting the mails........

    reply: '550 <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in
    virtual mailbox table\r\n'
    reply: retcode (550); Msg: <user at abc.net>: Recipient address rejected:
    User unknown in virtual mailbox table

    And do you see mail being accepted for the users who don't receive it.

    The most likely cause of this is the recipient domain is accepting the
    mail and then discarding it as spam (or delivering it to the users'
    spam or bulk folders). See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/4oA9>.


    Is it possible that mailman is not sending mails to all the users on the
    domain or mails are send domain wise so all the mail stuck. Any way i
    didn't find any thing in the qfiles.

    and followed up:

    When i check the qfiles they are empty but if i restart mailman it start
    sending all pending mails again is that any where else mailman store
    pending mails request ...
    No.

    As far as the main delivery path is concerned, incoming mail is placed
    in a queue entry in qfiles/in. That queue entry is picked up by
    IncomingRunner and is processed through a pipeline of handlers and
    ultimately queued in qfiles/out for delivery. That entry is picked up
    by OutgoingRunner which delivers messages with from one to hundreds of
    recipients via SMTP to your Postfix. At that point (after delivery is
    complete), it writes the 'post' log entry and the 'smtp' log entry
    (<message-id> smtp to list for nnn recips, completed in nn.nnn
    seconds).

    When the above log entry is written, the mail has all been passed to
    Postfix and is no longer in Mailman except for things like archives
    and digests. If any SMTP errors occur between Mailman and Postfix,
    they are logged in 'smtp-failure' and if retryable, the message with
    the failed recipient list is queued in qfiles/retry where it will be
    picked up by RetryRunner and requed in qfiles/out after a delay.

    If there are no files in qfiles/in/, qfiles/out/ or qfiles/retry,
    Mailman is done with message delivery, and it's all in Postfix.
    Restarting Mailman can't affect that message unless it is being
    processed by a runner at the time of restart in which case, there may
    be a .bak file in a queue which will be reprocessed when Mailman
    restarts.
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 7, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
    I found the problem the "Bounce processing" option was disabled. The
    mailman send the mail to 500 rcpt at once because of the 20 user are
    says User unknown in virtual mailbox table so all the 500 mails are keep
    bouncing between mailman and postfix.

    Enabling bounce processing in this situation will just remove valid
    member addresses from your list. What you need to do is set

    SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10

    (or some number less than 20) in mm_cfg.py, so you don't ever have more
    than 20 recipients to one domain.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Nitin Bhadauria at Oct 13, 2008 at 7:41 am
    Hi Mark,

    SMTP_MAX_RCPTS is not working for me because i got more then 2000
    thousand mail id's from same domain and if i go for that option mails
    will stuck . If i don't configure the option i am getting errors in mailq :

    "delivery temporarily suspended: lost connection with
    yahoo.com[11.111.1.1] while sending DATA command" OR
    "server refused to talk to me: 421 4.7.0 [TS01] Messages from 111.1.11.1
    temporarily deferred due to user complaints - 4."

    Mark Sapiro wrote:
    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
    I found the problem the "Bounce processing" option was disabled. The
    mailman send the mail to 500 rcpt at once because of the 20 user are
    says User unknown in virtual mailbox table so all the 500 mails are keep
    bouncing between mailman and postfix.

    Enabling bounce processing in this situation will just remove valid
    member addresses from your list. What you need to do is set

    SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10

    (or some number less than 20) in mm_cfg.py, so you don't ever have more
    than 20 recipients to one domain.
  • Brad Knowles at Oct 13, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:

    SMTP_MAX_RCPTS is not working for me because i got more then 2000
    thousand mail id's from same domain and if i go for that option mails
    will stuck . If i don't configure the option i am getting errors in mailq :
    Setting SMTP_MAX_RCPTS is basically what you need to adequately communicate
    with your local MTA.

    Your local MTA should be handling whatever is required to split envelopes
    into smaller chunks, if that is what the remote MTA is requiring. If the
    remote MTA is throttling you based on the total number of recipients in a
    unit of time (and not the number of messages), then your local MTA should
    also be handling appropriate retransmissions to get your traffic through at
    a later time.

    If your local MTA is not doing this for you, then you might want to look at
    changing the configuration of your MTA, or maybe getting a different one.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
    LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
  • Mark Sapiro at Oct 13, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Nitin Bhadauria wrote:
    SMTP_MAX_RCPTS is not working for me because i got more then 2000
    thousand mail id's from same domain and if i go for that option mails
    will stuck .

    Stuck where? Reducing SMTP_MAX_RCPTS from the default 500 to 10 will
    increase the number of SMTP transactions between Mailman and the MTA
    and will reduce the number of recipients per transaction. This in turn
    will ensure that no message from your MTA to a destination domain has
    more than 10 recipients.

    If i don't configure the option i am getting errors in mailq :

    "delivery temporarily suspended: lost connection with
    yahoo.com[11.111.1.1] while sending DATA command" OR
    "server refused to talk to me: 421 4.7.0 [TS01] Messages from 111.1.11.1
    temporarily deferred due to user complaints - 4."

    And your MTA should be retrying those, and Yahoo will ultimately accept
    them. I have seen the 421 4.7.0 [TS01] error from Yahoo in the past
    even with VERPd messages with one recipient per message, but the
    messages were always eventually accepted.

    Perhaps you should talk to Yahoo about getting whitelisted.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

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