FAQ
The release notes and NEWS file for Mailman 2.1.11 contains the
following innocuous looking item.

~ - Improved bounce loop detection and handling in BounceRunner.py.

This actually first appeared in 2.1.11rc2. It turns out this had an
unintended consequence, but I actually think it is a good thing.

The change involved bounces returned to the site list (mailman list)
- -bounces address. There was always code in BounceRunner.py to look at
bounces returned to the site list -bounces address to try to detect if
the bounce was a bounce of a notice to a list owner, and if so, to send
the bounce to the site list instead of processing it. This code never
worked right.

The main problem, is I don't in general know how to tell to what address
the bounced message was originally sent. If I did, there would never be
an unrecognized bounce. So part of the change in 2.1.11 rc2 and final is
to just forward to the site list owner any message that arrives to the
site list -bounces address so the owner can handle the bounce.

The unintended consequence is that bounces of password reminders will
also now go to the site list owner whereas before they were probably
just ignored or processed as unrecognized bounces to the site list.

Most of these bounces will probably be for dead addresses where the user
disabled delivery and forgot about the list and the address died and the
password reminders have been bouncing for a long time.

In the longer term, plain text passwords and reminders are going away,
but in the short term, the site list owner may get a lot of bounced
password reminders (possibly a whole lot in a large site) on the first
of the month following installation of this release.

I think the best way to deal with these is to remove the dead addresses
from the lists. Once this is done, the number of bounces on an ongoing
basis should be small.

- --
Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

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  • Hank van Cleef at Jul 1, 2008 at 6:40 pm
    The esteemed Mark Sapiro has said:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    The release notes and NEWS file for Mailman 2.1.11 contains the
    following innocuous looking item.

    ~ - Improved bounce loop detection and handling in BounceRunner.py.

    This actually first appeared in 2.1.11rc2. It turns out this had an
    unintended consequence, but I actually think it is a good thing.

    The unintended consequence is that bounces of password reminders will
    also now go to the site list owner whereas before they were probably
    just ignored or processed as unrecognized bounces to the site list.

    Most of these bounces will probably be for dead addresses where the user
    disabled delivery and forgot about the list and the address died and the
    password reminders have been bouncing for a long time.

    In the longer term, plain text passwords and reminders are going away,
    but in the short term, the site list owner may get a lot of bounced
    password reminders (possibly a whole lot in a large site) on the first
    of the month following installation of this release.

    I think the best way to deal with these is to remove the dead addresses
    from the lists. Once this is done, the number of bounces on an ongoing
    basis should be small.
    Mark, I've snipped your message, but it brings up something that is a
    problem for us, and maybe "hijacking" your note with a "feature
    request."

    We have a pattern of having list subscribers set themselves nomail,
    and sometime later, close out the ISP account that was used to receive
    mail. We would like to be able to cull out these "moved/left no
    address" subscribers.

    Evidently, 2.1.11 will allow me to more-or-less identify those
    accounts by telling me which accounts bounced the monthly reminder
    e-mail. It is not too great a task to look at perhaps ten accounts
    per month and correlate "nomail by user" with the bounce message.

    Over time, dead accounts add up. Last time I did something about
    this, I set all the "nomail" accounts to receive mail, and the bounce
    processor killed off close to half the accounts. This was after eight
    years of running. The problem with that was that I had a hundred or
    so users who were still active but who did not want to receive list
    mail. (Many were following the list through reading the archives).

    I'm also concerned about this proposed scheme to discontinue montnly
    mailings. It most definitely needs some mechanism whereby a user can
    reset or re-obtain their password without moderator intervention. Our
    user base is just plain not password-savvy, and I'm concerned about
    the increase in moderator workload if the recovery method is similar
    to password resetting by root (the Unix method).

    Hank
  • Barry Warsaw at Jul 1, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:40 PM, Hank van Cleef wrote:

    I'm also concerned about this proposed scheme to discontinue montnly
    mailings. It most definitely needs some mechanism whereby a user can
    reset or re-obtain their password without moderator intervention. Our
    user base is just plain not password-savvy, and I'm concerned about
    the increase in moderator workload if the recovery method is similar
    to password resetting by root (the Unix method).
    Don't worry, going forward we'll have a fairly typical password reset
    feature instead of the monthly reminder. The other advantage of this
    is that we won't have to keep user passwords in our database
    unencrypted.

    - -Barry
  • Ralf Hildebrandt at Jul 1, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
    I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
    I get lots of these:
    initialization differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    Should I worry?

    --
    Ralf Hildebrandt (i.A. des IT-Zentrums) Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de
    Charite - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin Tel. +49 (0)30-450 570-155
    Gemeinsame Einrichtung von FU- und HU-Berlin Fax. +49 (0)30-450 570-962
    IT-Zentrum Standort CBF send no mail to snickebo at charite.de
  • Barry Warsaw at Jul 1, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    On Jul 1, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

    * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
    I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
    I get lots of these:
    initialization differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization

    Should I worry?
    Nope, you can ignore these.
    - -Barry
  • Barry Finkel at Jul 1, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
    I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
    Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> replied:
    I get lots of these:
    initialization differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2350: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2361: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2362: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2363: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
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    src/_koco_uhc.h:2364: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2365: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2366: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2367: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2368: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2369: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2370: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2371: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2372: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2373: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2374: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2375: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2376: warning: pointer targets in initialization

    Should I worry?
    When I build my 2.1.11 package for Ubuntu this morning I saw those
    (and others), and I did some research:

    -----
    src/_koco_ksc5601.h:1493:

    static unsigned char *ksc5601_encode_page0[945] = { /* 0x00a1 - 0x0451 */
    "\xa2\xae", 0, 0, "\xa2\xb4", 0, 0, "\xa1\xd7", "\xa1\xa7",

    There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").

    -----
    src/_koco_uhc.h:1613:

    static unsigned char *uhc_encode_page0[11170] = { /* 0xac02 - 0xd7a3 */
    "\x81\x41", "\x81\x42", 0, "\x81\x43", "\x81\x44", 0, 0, 0,

    There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").
    -----
    src/koco_stream.h:42: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness
    src/koco_stream.h:43: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness
    srccur = s; [unsigned char = char]
    srcend = s + slen; [unsigned char = char + int]

    The same is true for lines 135 and 136.
    -----
    And there are similar errors in a handful of other routines.
    -----

    I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
    my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
    2.1.9 package, which I use in production. I am not an expert in the
    C language and what type conversions are done. But I would not worry
    about these messages. I do not know if the C code can be changed to
    eliminate these messages.

    I captured the output of my package build process using the "script"
    command. That output file has

    17097 "warning: " lines
    4777 other lines
    -----
    21874 lines total
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Barry S. Finkel
    Computing and Information Systems Division
    Argonne National Laboratory Phone: +1 (630) 252-7277
    9700 South Cass Avenue Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
    Building 222, Room D209 Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
    Argonne, IL 60439-4828 IBMMAIL: I1004994
  • Mark Sapiro at Jul 1, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    Barry Finkel wrote:
    * Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net>:
    I am happy to announce the final release of the Mailman 2.1.11.
    Ralf Hildebrandt <Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de> replied:
    I get lots of these:
    initialization differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    src/_koco_uhc.h:2349: warning: pointer targets in initialization
    differ in signedness
    <snip>
    Should I worry?
    When I build my 2.1.11 package for Ubuntu this morning I saw those
    (and others), and I did some research:

    -----
    src/_koco_ksc5601.h:1493:

    static unsigned char *ksc5601_encode_page0[945] = { /* 0x00a1 - 0x0451 */
    "\xa2\xae", 0, 0, "\xa2\xb4", 0, 0, "\xa1\xd7", "\xa1\xa7",

    There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").

    -----
    src/_koco_uhc.h:1613:

    static unsigned char *uhc_encode_page0[11170] = { /* 0xac02 - 0xd7a3 */
    "\x81\x41", "\x81\x42", 0, "\x81\x43", "\x81\x44", 0, 0, 0,

    There is one message for each non-zero value (e.g., "\xa2\xae").
    -----
    src/koco_stream.h:42: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in
    signedness
    src/koco_stream.h:43: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in
    signedness
    srccur = s; [unsigned char = char]
    srcend = s + slen; [unsigned char = char + int]

    The same is true for lines 135 and 136.
    -----
    And there are similar errors in a handful of other routines.
    -----

    I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
    my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
    2.1.9 package, which I use in production. I am not an expert in the
    C language and what type conversions are done. But I would not worry
    about these messages. I do not know if the C code can be changed to
    eliminate these messages.

    Probably the code or some header declaration could be changed to avoid
    these. I have in the past been able to produce them by giving the
    '-pedantic' option to a gcc that didn't produce them by default.

    The bottom line is that some versions of gcc will produce these
    warnings, but they don't affect the operation of the installed codecs.

    If these Japanese and Korean codecs were sticking around, we might look
    into 'fixing' this, but Mailman 3.0 will require Python 2.5 minimum, and
    ~ These codecs have been built-in since Python 2.4 so Mailman's
    installation of them will be going away.

    - --
    Mark Sapiro <mark at msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Jul 3, 2008 at 5:36 am
    Barry Finkel writes:
    I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
    my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
    2.1.9 package, which I use in production. I am not an expert in the
    C language and what type conversions are done. But I would not worry
    about these messages. I do not know if the C code can be changed to
    eliminate these messages.
    It is very difficult to safely eliminate these messages. It's
    probably not worth trying.
  • Barry Finkel at Jul 3, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    Barry Finkel writes:

    I have not yet installed my 2.1.11 package on my test machine, but
    my records show that I had the identical messages when I built my
    2.1.9 package, which I use in production. I am not an expert in the
    C language and what type conversions are done. But I would not worry
    about these messages. I do not know if the C code can be changed to
    eliminate these messages.
    And Stephen J. Turnbull replied:
    It is very difficult to safely eliminate these messages. It's
    probably not worth trying.
    I have not looked at the current documentation. Are these messages
    documented as being harmless?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Barry S. Finkel
    Computing and Information Systems Division
    Argonne National Laboratory Phone: +1 (630) 252-7277
    9700 South Cass Avenue Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601
    Building 222, Room D209 Internet: BSFinkel at anl.gov
    Argonne, IL 60439-4828 IBMMAIL: I1004994

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