FAQ
What you currently have now is each translator not only responsible
for translating message strings -- but also faithfully reproducing the
whole HTML structure of the English version -- intact.

E.g., we run a random template through a HTML validator and see
end tag for "TABLE" omitted, but its declaration does not permit this
start tag was here
end tag for "CENTER" omitted, but its declaration does not permit this
start tag was here
end tag for element "CENTER" which is not open
end tag for element "TD" which is not open
end tag for element "TR" which is not open
end tag for element "TABLE" which is not open

Which means it is just lucky if the page displays as you intend it.

Also we see there even is the bin/transcheck command, to measure
aspects of the seriousness of the problem.

So I would advise before calling for help translating, first relieve
each translator from the task of keeping the HTML house of cards
intact. Don't require them also to be a HTML expert. Just use one
English template, and substitute strings into that.
Site customization of any page of course would still be possible.

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&aid61600&group_id3&atid0103

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  • Brad Knowles at Jan 19, 2008 at 7:14 am

    On 1/19/08, jidanni at jidanni.org wrote:

    So I would advise before calling for help translating, first relieve
    each translator from the task of keeping the HTML house of cards
    intact. Don't require them also to be a HTML expert. Just use one
    English template, and substitute strings into that.
    That's a nice idea.


    Of course, Mailman is an open source project that is 100% volunteer
    supported in our non-existent free time, and we have very limited
    resources for development. If you've spent any time on the Mailman
    pages at SourceForge, then you've seen all the hundreds of patches,
    requests for enhancement, etc... that have been filed.

    If you took a look at the current Mailman 2.1.10 beta code and
    compared that to earlier versions, you would see how much has changed
    over the years since the 2.1.* tree was first branched. And you
    would also see what kind of superhuman effort is put forth by people
    like Mark Sapiro, Tokio Kikuchi, Barry Warsaw and so many others.

    If you took a look at the Mailman wiki, you would get a chance to get
    some sort of idea what the long-term roadmap is for Mailman 2.2.x,
    2.3.x, and even the mythical Mailman3, although because this is a
    100% volunteer supported project and all the principals have real
    jobs that they have to pay full-time attention to in order to put
    food on the table, there can never be any kind of firm timetable for
    when any of the proposed features may actually be delivered.


    If you have useful code to contribute, we welcome that. If you have
    useful translation experience to provide, we gladly welcome that. If
    you have thousands or millions of dollars to donate to the project so
    that we can pay people to work full time on development for Mailman,
    we will be very glad to welcome that.

    Otherwise, you're welcome to file your RFEs and get in line with everyone else.


    You appear to have some knowledge of HTML, so you could at least file
    updated translations with appropriate templates and HTML structure,
    while we wait for whatever code improvements may be necessary so that
    the translation process is made easier and less error-prone.

    Ask not what the Mailman project can do for you. Ask what you can do
    for the Mailman project.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
    LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
  • Barry Warsaw at Jan 19, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    On Jan 19, 2008, at 1:51 AM, jidanni at jidanni.org wrote:

    What you currently have now is each translator not only responsible
    for translating message strings -- but also faithfully reproducing the
    whole HTML structure of the English version -- intact.

    E.g., we run a random template through a HTML validator and see
    end tag for "TABLE" omitted, but its declaration does not permit this
    start tag was here
    end tag for "CENTER" omitted, but its declaration does not permit this
    start tag was here
    end tag for element "CENTER" which is not open
    end tag for element "TD" which is not open
    end tag for element "TR" which is not open
    end tag for element "TABLE" which is not open

    Which means it is just lucky if the page displays as you intend it.

    Also we see there even is the bin/transcheck command, to measure
    aspects of the seriousness of the problem.

    So I would advise before calling for help translating, first relieve
    each translator from the task of keeping the HTML house of cards
    intact. Don't require them also to be a HTML expert. Just use one
    English template, and substitute strings into that.
    Site customization of any page of course would still be possible.
    This thread should move to mailman-developers, but here's my take on
    things. First, we completely agree with you. :)

    The plan is to adopt a new templating system for Mailman 2.2 and 3.0.
    We'll use the same one for both, the main difference between that
    Mailman 2.2 intends to /only/ update the web u/i while Mailman 3 is a
    fairly significant redesign intended to back Mailman with an object-
    relational mapper tied to a relational database.

    There are many Python-based templating systems out there. The primary
    requirement for Mailman 3 is good i18n support so that we can do
    exactly what you describe. I want to be able to write the templates
    once for all languages, do source string extraction and merge that
    into the standard catalogs, then use the normal translation services
    to render language-specific web pages. We have not made a decision on
    which templating system to use yet.

    If you're interesting in helping out with this effort, please join
    mailman-developers.

    - -Barry
  • Jidanni at Jan 20, 2008 at 6:07 am
    BW> If you're interesting in helping out with this effort, please join
    BW> mailman-developers.
    Unfortunately all the development I can do (on Dreamhost) is pasting
    into the edithtml.cgi window, and no matter how much I do I still
    can't remove imbalanced tags from parts of mailman I have no access
    to. So all I can say is is it is not good to have 13 buttons on one
    language's template, and 24 on another, and it is not good to send
    forth electric blender output style HTML tags options which don't
    match Wilbur or other known versions. I mean maybe a script kiddie
    will take advantage of the highly invalid HTML you fellows are pumping
    into the world. So my contribution for 2008 is: "remember to validate".
  • Brad Knowles at Jan 20, 2008 at 7:27 am

    On 1/20/08, jidanni at jidanni.org wrote:

    Unfortunately all the development I can do (on Dreamhost) is pasting
    into the edithtml.cgi window, and no matter how much I do I still
    can't remove imbalanced tags from parts of mailman I have no access
    to.
    That may be the only public place you've got Mailman installed, but
    it should be trivially easy for someone of your skill to install
    Mailman locally on your desktop and then do further development and
    translation work there.

    No one needs to be able to access the site from the outside world --
    you just need to be able to see that the changes you've made have had
    the proper effect, and then you can contribute your changes to the
    project.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
    LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
  • Brad Knowles at Jan 20, 2008 at 8:13 am

    On 1/20/08, jidanni at jidanni.org wrote:

    Unfortunately all the development I can do (on Dreamhost) is pasting
    into the edithtml.cgi window, and no matter how much I do I still
    can't remove imbalanced tags from parts of mailman I have no access
    to.
    Oh, and if you're going to be involved in translations, the best
    place to start is
    <http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Internationalization>. You'll be
    guided to the mailman-i18n mailing list, the list of current language
    champions, etc....

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>
    LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>

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postedJan 19, '08 at 6:51a
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