FAQ
This is my first post and I apologize if this has been dealt with; I was not able
to find the right way to search the archives. I also apologize for the length.

I administer half a dozen lists with membership ranging from 100 to 500, the
number of messages ranging from 1 to 30 a day on each list, but monthly
bandwidth for all lists together under 4 GB. A small commercial place where
our domain was hosted recently decided to stop supporting Mailman, partly
because their version of cPanel didn't include Mailman space in the user's
quota.

We found a number of places that offered "unlimited" Mailman lists, chose
one and moved everything there via a cPanel backup. The move worked
fine, and all the Mailman archives were intact. A couple of days later, we
found that some messages were not going through and learned from the
support people that there was an hourly limit on the number of messages -
the 250 limit meant that a list with 300 people could not get even a single
message out, and that if a message went out to a list with 200, there could
not be another message for an hour. The only solution they offer is for us to
get a dedicated server, which costs about ten times as much and is far
beyond what we need by way of bandwidth.

What we found upsetting (besides the policy being unannounced) was that
other places we contacted all have similar hourly limits, even as they all
advertise "unlimited" mailing lists.

We are not sure what the reason is for these limits. Is it that the SMTP
servers cannot tell the difference between Mailman mail and other mail so
the places are afraid of spammers giving their servers a bad name? Or is it
that SMTP takes up so much resource that a limit is necessary?

Finally, and this is the main reason for this post, are there commercial
places that support Mailman with more reasonable limits on the number of
messages?

Thank you all for any advice.

Sekhar

Search Discussions

  • Ivan Van Laningham at Jun 6, 2007 at 12:38 pm
    Hi All--
    I run ten to eleven mailing lists, with, just as you have, 100-500
    members apiece. I have a dedicated server with Godaddy. They told me
    that yes, I could run mailing lists. They didn't tell me in advance
    that there was a daily limit of 1000 outgoing messages per day. I
    discovered that as soon as the first mailing list went into operation
    and I had to wait 24 hours for the counter to be reset.

    In order to raise the limit to something reasonable, I had to provide
    documentation to Godaddy through some automated tools they have. I
    think in the end it amounted to about 20 pages of justification. It was
    definitely a pain, because their base assumption is that mailing lists
    are newsletters sent to customers. It follows that if you are a
    capitalist with customers, you lust to become an evil spammer, and only
    the fear of legal action and forcible disconnection keeps you from
    inundating the net with enlargement ads.

    You have to provide samples of your "newsletters," which is a bit
    difficult if you want to provide a modicum of privacy for your subscribers.

    I made calculations based on the size of the lists and the number of
    subscribers and requested my limit be raised to that limit. Godaddy cut
    that request to 1/3, which irritated me a lot, but all the messages went
    through without a hitch. Later, I realized that my calculations were
    off because I didn't remember that mailman will batch the transmissions
    so that I had far fewer outgoing emails than I thought. This would be
    different if I turned on full personalization, but I don't have any need
    for that.

    All in all, the Godaddy experience has been positive. I lease a far
    better machine than the prior one that I owned, and pay far less than I
    did when I colocated my server at a local ISP (you can get _substantial_
    discounts by paying in full for two to five years in advance: _ask_). I
    get more bandwidth, and the automated tools are, I reluctantly admit,
    not bad at all (Plesk; it's worth the monthly fee, just don't access it
    with IE. Use only Firefox).

    The cons are that Godaddy's service when you call to talk to a tech is
    not the best. Mostly, it consists of asking, "Did you read the FAQ on
    xxx?", stating "There is nothing wrong with our mail system," or saying,
    "I'm sorry, we don't support that software, since we don't force you to
    use it." (This last despite the fact that the software in question is
    the only software supplied on the system, and so you are forced to use
    it by default. They say you can install whatever you want on your
    system.) You'll end up googling a lot. You learn quickly, however. ;-)

    If you don't have the need for a dedicated server, you could go with a
    dedicated virtual server, which is a great deal cheaper, but you don't
    get things like three dedicated IP addresses and you have to share the
    machine (it looks like your own machine, however, because you're in a
    chroot box).

    They also have hosting plans that might include mailing lists, but I
    never really considered those.

    Hope this helps.

    Metta,
    Ivan

    Sekhar Ramakrishnan wrote:
    We are not sure what the reason is for these limits. Is it that the SMTP
    servers cannot tell the difference between Mailman mail and other mail so
    the places are afraid of spammers giving their servers a bad name? Or is it
    that SMTP takes up so much resource that a limit is necessary?

    Finally, and this is the main reason for this post, are there commercial
    places that support Mailman with more reasonable limits on the number of
    messages?
    --
    Ivan Van Laningham
    God N Locomotive Works
    http://www.pauahtun.org/
    http://www.python.org/workshops/1998-11/proceedings/papers/laningham/laningham.html
    Army Signal Corps: Cu Chi, Class of '70
    Author: Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
  • Brian Carpenter at Jun 6, 2007 at 12:54 pm
    You can also check out my services at http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html. I do
    not place any sort of message limits on my mailman clients.

    Kind regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    --------------------------------------
    EMWD - Executive Officer



    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org
    [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Ivan
    Van Laningham
    Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:39 AM
    To: rajasekhar at columbia.edu; mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Desperate to find a place without Mailman
    message limits


    Hi All--
    I run ten to eleven mailing lists, with, just as you have, 100-500
    members apiece. I have a dedicated server with Godaddy. They told me
    that yes, I could run mailing lists. They didn't tell me in advance
    that there was a daily limit of 1000 outgoing messages per day. I
    discovered that as soon as the first mailing list went into operation
    and I had to wait 24 hours for the counter to be reset.

    In order to raise the limit to something reasonable, I had to provide
    documentation to Godaddy through some automated tools they have. I
    think in the end it amounted to about 20 pages of justification. It was
    definitely a pain, because their base assumption is that mailing lists
    are newsletters sent to customers. It follows that if you are a
    capitalist with customers, you lust to become an evil spammer, and only
    the fear of legal action and forcible disconnection keeps you from
    inundating the net with enlargement ads.

    You have to provide samples of your "newsletters," which is a bit
    difficult if you want to provide a modicum of privacy for your subscribers.

    I made calculations based on the size of the lists and the number of
    subscribers and requested my limit be raised to that limit. Godaddy cut
    that request to 1/3, which irritated me a lot, but all the messages went
    through without a hitch. Later, I realized that my calculations were
    off because I didn't remember that mailman will batch the transmissions
    so that I had far fewer outgoing emails than I thought. This would be
    different if I turned on full personalization, but I don't have any need
    for that.

    All in all, the Godaddy experience has been positive. I lease a far
    better machine than the prior one that I owned, and pay far less than I
    did when I colocated my server at a local ISP (you can get _substantial_
    discounts by paying in full for two to five years in advance: _ask_). I
    get more bandwidth, and the automated tools are, I reluctantly admit,
    not bad at all (Plesk; it's worth the monthly fee, just don't access it
    with IE. Use only Firefox).

    The cons are that Godaddy's service when you call to talk to a tech is
    not the best. Mostly, it consists of asking, "Did you read the FAQ on
    xxx?", stating "There is nothing wrong with our mail system," or saying,
    "I'm sorry, we don't support that software, since we don't force you to
    use it." (This last despite the fact that the software in question is
    the only software supplied on the system, and so you are forced to use
    it by default. They say you can install whatever you want on your
    system.) You'll end up googling a lot. You learn quickly, however. ;-)

    If you don't have the need for a dedicated server, you could go with a
    dedicated virtual server, which is a great deal cheaper, but you don't
    get things like three dedicated IP addresses and you have to share the
    machine (it looks like your own machine, however, because you're in a
    chroot box).

    They also have hosting plans that might include mailing lists, but I
    never really considered those.

    Hope this helps.

    Metta,
    Ivan

    Sekhar Ramakrishnan wrote:
    We are not sure what the reason is for these limits. Is it that the
    SMTP
    servers cannot tell the difference between Mailman mail and other mail so
    the places are afraid of spammers giving their servers a bad name? Or is it
    that SMTP takes up so much resource that a limit is necessary?

    Finally, and this is the main reason for this post, are there
    commercial
    places that support Mailman with more reasonable limits on the number of
    messages?
    --
    Ivan Van Laningham
    God N Locomotive Works
    http://www.pauahtun.org/
    http://www.python.org/workshops/1998-11/proceedings/papers/laningham/laningh
    am.html
    Army Signal Corps: Cu Chi, Class of '70
    Author: Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe:
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com

    Security Policy:
    http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
  • Jason Pruim at Jun 6, 2007 at 1:06 pm
    Well if we are all going to throw in our hats... www.raoset.com/hosting/

    As long as you don't bring my server down I don't put limits on stuff ;)

    On Jun 6, 2007, at 8:54 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:

    You can also check out my services at http://www.emwd.com/
    mailman.html. I do
    not place any sort of message limits on my mailman clients.

    Kind regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    --------------------------------------
    EMWD - Executive Officer



    -----Original Message-----
    From: mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org
    [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com at python.org] On Behalf
    Of Ivan
    Van Laningham
    Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:39 AM
    To: rajasekhar at columbia.edu; mailman-users at python.org
    Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Desperate to find a place without Mailman
    message limits


    Hi All--
    I run ten to eleven mailing lists, with, just as you have, 100-500
    members apiece. I have a dedicated server with Godaddy. They told me
    that yes, I could run mailing lists. They didn't tell me in advance
    that there was a daily limit of 1000 outgoing messages per day. I
    discovered that as soon as the first mailing list went into operation
    and I had to wait 24 hours for the counter to be reset.

    In order to raise the limit to something reasonable, I had to provide
    documentation to Godaddy through some automated tools they have. I
    think in the end it amounted to about 20 pages of justification.
    It was
    definitely a pain, because their base assumption is that mailing lists
    are newsletters sent to customers. It follows that if you are a
    capitalist with customers, you lust to become an evil spammer, and
    only
    the fear of legal action and forcible disconnection keeps you from
    inundating the net with enlargement ads.

    You have to provide samples of your "newsletters," which is a bit
    difficult if you want to provide a modicum of privacy for your
    subscribers.

    I made calculations based on the size of the lists and the number of
    subscribers and requested my limit be raised to that limit.
    Godaddy cut
    that request to 1/3, which irritated me a lot, but all the messages
    went
    through without a hitch. Later, I realized that my calculations were
    off because I didn't remember that mailman will batch the
    transmissions
    so that I had far fewer outgoing emails than I thought. This would be
    different if I turned on full personalization, but I don't have any
    need
    for that.

    All in all, the Godaddy experience has been positive. I lease a far
    better machine than the prior one that I owned, and pay far less
    than I
    did when I colocated my server at a local ISP (you can get
    _substantial_
    discounts by paying in full for two to five years in advance:
    _ask_). I
    get more bandwidth, and the automated tools are, I reluctantly admit,
    not bad at all (Plesk; it's worth the monthly fee, just don't
    access it
    with IE. Use only Firefox).

    The cons are that Godaddy's service when you call to talk to a tech is
    not the best. Mostly, it consists of asking, "Did you read the FAQ on
    xxx?", stating "There is nothing wrong with our mail system," or
    saying,
    "I'm sorry, we don't support that software, since we don't force
    you to
    use it." (This last despite the fact that the software in question is
    the only software supplied on the system, and so you are forced to use
    it by default. They say you can install whatever you want on your
    system.) You'll end up googling a lot. You learn quickly,
    however. ;-)

    If you don't have the need for a dedicated server, you could go with a
    dedicated virtual server, which is a great deal cheaper, but you don't
    get things like three dedicated IP addresses and you have to share the
    machine (it looks like your own machine, however, because you're in a
    chroot box).

    They also have hosting plans that might include mailing lists, but I
    never really considered those.

    Hope this helps.

    Metta,
    Ivan

    Sekhar Ramakrishnan wrote:
    We are not sure what the reason is for these limits. Is it that the
    SMTP
    servers cannot tell the difference between Mailman mail and other
    mail so
    the places are afraid of spammers giving their servers a bad name?
    Or is it
    that SMTP takes up so much resource that a limit is necessary?

    Finally, and this is the main reason for this post, are there
    commercial
    places that support Mailman with more reasonable limits on the
    number of
    messages?
    --
    Ivan Van Laningham
    God N Locomotive Works
    http://www.pauahtun.org/
    http://www.python.org/workshops/1998-11/proceedings/papers/
    laningham/laningh
    am.html
    Army Signal Corps: Cu Chi, Class of '70
    Author: Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%
    40python.org/
    Unsubscribe:
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com

    Security Policy:
    http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq01.027.htp

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
    Mailman-Users at python.org
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
    Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
    Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%
    40python.org/
    Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/
    japruim%40raoset.com

    Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
  • Barry Warsaw at Jun 6, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    On Jun 6, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Jason Pruim wrote:

    Well if we are all going to throw in our hats... www.raoset.com/
    hosting/

    As long as you don't bring my server down I don't put limits on
    stuff ;)
    If you're a Mailman hosting provider, be sure you're on the list:

    http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Mailman+hosting+services

    If you're looking for hosting services, check that list! :)

    - -Barry
  • Joshua J. Kugler at Jun 6, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    On Wednesday 06 June 2007 00:24, Sekhar Ramakrishnan wrote:
    Finally, and this is the main reason for this post, are there commercial
    places that support Mailman with more reasonable limits on the number of
    messages?
    textdrive.com has reasonably priced plans that include mailman. I've not seen
    anything about mailman limits, all their feature list says is "Host Mailman
    mailing lists complete with archives." Might be worth checking them out.
    Their AUP says you can't send out "Unsolicited Bulk Email (?UBE?, ?spam?)".
    It also says you can't run "unconfirmed" mailing lists. That is, your
    mailing lists have to be Opt-In.

    If they ask who referred you, say "jkugler." :)

    j

    --
    Joshua Kugler
    Lead System Admin -- Senior Programmer
    http://www.eeinternet.com
    PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu/ ID 0xDB26D7CE
    PO Box 80086 -- Fairbanks, AK 99708 -- Ph: 907-456-5581 Fax: 907-456-3111

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