FAQ
I have what appears to be a case of GMail eating message posts... allow
me to explain.

I have a user, foobar at gmail.com, who posts to a Mailman list hosted on
one of my servers. According to my Exim and Mailman logs, it is
received by the MTA, passed on to Mailman, posted successfully, and sent
back out to all the recipients, including foobar at gmail.com. However,
the email never shows up in foobar at gmail.com's inbox, spam folder, or
any other folder. I went back to check the Exim log for failed or
delayed deliveries, only to find nothing (well, for foobar at gmail.com
anyways :-)

Is it the case that since Mailman makes the posting look like it came
from foobar at gmail.com (i.e., it's claiming to be that user), and since
one of the recipients is foobar at gmail.com, that Google drops it at the
gate and refuses to even handle it because it looks forged? Has anybody
else experienced this issue?

Thanks in advance!

Best Regards,
Ryan Steele

--
Ryan Steele
Systems Administrator steele at agora-net.com
AgoraNet, Inc. (302) 224-2475
314 E. Main Street, Suite 1 (302) 224-2552 (fax)
Newark, DE 19711 http://www.agora-net.com

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  • Alan McConnell at Mar 14, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 12:56:41PM -0400, Ryan Steele wrote:
    Is it the case that since Mailman makes the posting look like it came
    from foobar at gmail.com (i.e., it's claiming to be that user), and since
    one of the recipients is foobar at gmail.com, that Google drops it at the
    gate and refuses to even handle it because it looks forged? Has anybody
    else experienced this issue?
    Google/gmail is smarter than we are. It "knows" that since
    foobar sent the message, foobar knows what is in the message,
    and therefore doesn't want it cluttering up his(foobar's) Inbox.

    I wrote a letter to the gmail honchos about this, which I reproduce
    below. Of course I heard nothing. But maybe if 5 or 50 or 500 of
    us wrote similar messages, something might happen . . . ?

    Alan, who enjoys p*ss*ng up waterfalls

    (start)------------------------------------
    I would like to have mail that I send to an E-list
    (aka list-serve, E-mail list) from my gmail account,
    accepted when it is sent back to me; it should appear
    in my Inbox. (I get postings from other list members,
    so the list SW is OK).

    It must have taken effort for Gmail to send these messages
    to /dev/null. I would like that effort to be undone.

    Many thanks in advance,

    Alan McConnell

    --------------------------(finish)

    --
    Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan
    "He lies. He spies. He wants us to ignore
    His war . . ." Impeach him!
  • Ryan Steele at Mar 14, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    Alan McConnell wrote:
    On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 12:56:41PM -0400, Ryan Steele wrote:

    Is it the case that since Mailman makes the posting look like it came
    from foobar at gmail.com (i.e., it's claiming to be that user), and since
    one of the recipients is foobar at gmail.com, that Google drops it at the
    gate and refuses to even handle it because it looks forged? Has anybody
    else experienced this issue?
    Google/gmail is smarter than we are. It "knows" that since
    foobar sent the message, foobar knows what is in the message,
    and therefore doesn't want it cluttering up his(foobar's) Inbox.

    I wrote a letter to the gmail honchos about this, which I reproduce
    below. Of course I heard nothing. But maybe if 5 or 50 or 500 of
    us wrote similar messages, something might happen . . . ?
    Count me in for doing my part - I've written a similar letter:

    To the folks at GMail:

    It has been widely discussed and reported that mailing lists and GMail
    to not play nicely together. For example, if I want to implement
    Mailman, one of the most (if not /the/ most) popular mailing list
    managers, I can expect NOT to receive a response to a list posting using
    my GMail account, if I happen to be a member of that list.

    Obviously, it's because you all either

    A) consider the email forged when a message that claims to be from a
    GMail user seems to originate from another server's MTA (e.g., the mail
    server running Mailman), or

    B) decide they shouldn't know that their posting was actually received
    by the mailing list by conveniently dropping any message which seems to
    have an identical copy in the Sent folder.

    Now, I'm sure that you all consider it a "feature" that you drop it at
    the gate instead of sending it to the Inbox, or Spam folder, or anwhere
    else the user can identify as having "received" it, but those of us who
    use, administer, and run mailing list software do not find this to be
    either cute or a "feature", as many of us (and the general public)
    prefer not to follow threads both in the Inbox and the Sent folders.
    It's not as big of an issue if you've got a previous instance of the
    thread in your Inbox (e.g., you aren't the creator of the post thread),
    but this is an annoyance if you are.

    I know that, up until this point, we've (the community, that is)
    received deafening silence on this issue, so I only find it fair to take
    the standard "David vs. Goliath" approach, and use my slingshot
    (blogging, and column in the local tech gazette) to toss stones. Of
    course, if we could simply have the option of toggling off the "feature"
    that mandates we don't receive copies that are similar to those in our
    Sent boxes, that would be preferable for both parties, I'm sure.

    Thanks for your time!

    Ryan Steele
    Systems Administrator
    Alan, who enjoys p*ss*ng up waterfalls

    :-D My co-workers and I got a kick out of that signature!
    (start)------------------------------------
    I would like to have mail that I send to an E-list
    (aka list-serve, E-mail list) from my gmail account,
    accepted when it is sent back to me; it should appear
    in my Inbox. (I get postings from other list members,
    so the list SW is OK).

    It must have taken effort for Gmail to send these messages
    to /dev/null. I would like that effort to be undone.

    Many thanks in advance,

    Alan McConnell

    --------------------------(finish)

    --
    Ryan Steele
    Systems Administrator steele at agora-net.com
    AgoraNet, Inc. (302) 224-2475
    314 E. Main Street, Suite 1 (302) 224-2552 (fax)
    Newark, DE 19711 http://www.agora-net.com
  • Paul Tomblin at Mar 14, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    Quoting Ryan Steele (steele at agora-net.com):
    I have a user, foobar at gmail.com, who posts to a Mailman list hosted on
    one of my servers. According to my Exim and Mailman logs, it is
    received by the MTA, passed on to Mailman, posted successfully, and sent
    back out to all the recipients, including foobar at gmail.com. However,
    the email never shows up in foobar at gmail.com's inbox, spam folder, or
    any other folder. I went back to check the Exim log for failed or
    delayed deliveries, only to find nothing (well, for foobar at gmail.com
    anyways :-)
    One of the "features" of gmail is that it doesn't show you the return of
    mail that you sent to mailing list, only the one you sent (so without the
    mailing list subject line prefix, headers, etc). It's annoying as hell if
    you ask me, but that's gmail for you.

    --
    Paul Tomblin <ptomblin at xcski.com> http://blog.xcski.com/
    Don't you just hate them? Don't you just wanna break their ribs,
    cut their backs open and pull their lungs out from behind?
    -- Ina Faye-Lund, on script kiddies
  • Dragon at Mar 14, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    Paul Tomblin wrote:
    Quoting Ryan Steele (steele at agora-net.com):
    I have a user, foobar at gmail.com, who posts to a Mailman list hosted on
    one of my servers. According to my Exim and Mailman logs, it is
    received by the MTA, passed on to Mailman, posted successfully, and sent
    back out to all the recipients, including foobar at gmail.com. However,
    the email never shows up in foobar at gmail.com's inbox, spam folder, or
    any other folder. I went back to check the Exim log for failed or
    delayed deliveries, only to find nothing (well, for foobar at gmail.com
    anyways :-)
    One of the "features" of gmail is that it doesn't show you the return of
    mail that you sent to mailing list, only the one you sent (so without the
    mailing list subject line prefix, headers, etc). It's annoying as hell if
    you ask me, but that's gmail for you.
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    There is a FAQ entry on this.

    http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.042.htp

    And yeah, Gmail does some stinky things. (I am not a fan of web mail
    in general, or even IMAP for that matter, give me a good MUA and POP3
    and I am happy).



    Dragon

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  • Paul Tomblin at Mar 14, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Quoting Dragon (dragon at crimson-dragon.com):
    Paul Tomblin wrote:
    Quoting Ryan Steele (steele at agora-net.com):
    any other folder. I went back to check the Exim log for failed or
    delayed deliveries, only to find nothing (well, for foobar at gmail.com
    anyways :-)
    One of the "features" of gmail is that it doesn't show you the return of
    mail that you sent to mailing list, only the one you sent (so without the
    mailing list subject line prefix, headers, etc). It's annoying as hell if
    you ask me, but that's gmail for you.
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    There is a FAQ entry on this.

    http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.042.htp
    That FAQ entry says absolutely nothing about the issue in question. GMail
    isn't rejecting the message thinking it's spam, they're discarding your
    copy of it. Other gmail users will recieve it, it's only the sender who
    won't see it.

    --
    Paul Tomblin <ptomblin at xcski.com> http://blog.xcski.com/
    "He who demands everything that his aircraft can give him is a pilot; he
    that demands one iota more is a fool."
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 14, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    That FAQ entry says absolutely nothing about the issue in question. GMail
    isn't rejecting the message thinking it's spam, they're discarding your
    copy of it. Other gmail users will recieve it, it's only the sender who
    won't see it.
    Well, you can always update the FAQ entry in question, or create a
    new FAQ entry for this subject. It is a community-supported effort,
    and the instructions for updating the FAQ entries can be found within
    the editing interface of the FAQ Wizard itself.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>, Consultant & Author
    LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
    Slides from Invited Talks: <http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4>

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postedMar 14, '07 at 4:56p
activeMar 14, '07 at 8:32p
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