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Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
email address.
How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?

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  • Ki Song at Jan 26, 2007 at 5:55 pm
    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
  • Dragon at Jan 26, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Ki Song wrote:
    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    Are you certain of that?

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.

    If it is indeed being sent twice, I would expect the messages to have
    different message IDs, the time sent may or may not be different. If
    the message IDs are the same on both copies, I would strongly suspect
    you are getting bit by a filter rule and Mailman is doing the right thing.

    Dragon

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  • Ki Song at Jan 26, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    Are you certain of that?

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.

    If it is indeed being sent twice, I would expect the messages to have
    different message IDs, the time sent may or may not be different. If
    the message IDs are the same on both copies, I would strongly suspect
    you are getting bit by a filter rule and Mailman is doing the right thing.

    Dragon
    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:

    Message-ID: <mailman.2147.1169820047.30843.list at mailserver.domain.com>


    Could this be a postfix issue? I don't think so ... because my other,
    regular messages, are being sent without duplicates.
  • Mark Sapiro at Jan 26, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Ki Song quoted Dragon and wrote:

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.
    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:

    Message-ID: <mailman.2147.1169820047.30843.list at mailserver.domain.com>

    OK. It is the same message. Did you check the filter rules in your
    email client as Dragon suggests to be sure that they are not
    responsible for duplicating the message?

    Also, What is the contents of the list's owner and moderator
    attributes. Are you or something that forwards to you listed twice?

    Also, check for that Message-ID in Mailman's 'smtp' log and see how
    many recipients it was sent to.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Ki Song at Jan 26, 2007 at 9:07 pm

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.
    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:

    Message-ID: <mailman.2147.1169820047.30843.list at mailserver.domain.com>

    OK. It is the same message. Did you check the filter rules in your
    email client as Dragon suggests to be sure that they are not
    responsible for duplicating the message?
    I checked the filter rules. I could not find anything that could possibly
    duplicate messages. There is only one reference to the messages that are
    being duplicated (the filter/rule looks for where the message is being SENT
    to)
    Also, What is the contents of the list's owner and moderator
    attributes. Are you or something that forwards to you listed twice?
    Where could I find these attributes? Is it on the web admin interface, or is
    it somewhere else?
    Also, check for that Message-ID in Mailman's 'smtp' log and see how
    many recipients it was sent to.
    The message-ID from mailman's smtp log shows something interesting. Every
    message that is duplicated, shows the same message-ID, but it says that it
    is being sent to 2 recipients. Is that normal? I ask because as far as I
    know, these subscribe messages are being sent to me, the administrator, and
    the actual email that is being subscribed/unsubscribed. Is that normal, or
    would it be two different message-ID's, if only 1 message was being sent to
    me and 1 message was being sent to the email address that is being
    subscribed/unsubscribed?
  • Mark Sapiro at Jan 26, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    Ki Song quoted Mark Sapiro and wrote:
    Also, What is the contents of the list's owner and moderator
    attributes. Are you or something that forwards to you listed twice?
    Where could I find these attributes? Is it on the web admin interface, or is
    it somewhere else?

    Web admin, General options.

    Also, check for that Message-ID in Mailman's 'smtp' log and see how
    many recipients it was sent to.
    The message-ID from mailman's smtp log shows something interesting. Every
    message that is duplicated, shows the same message-ID, but it says that it
    is being sent to 2 recipients. Is that normal?

    It is normal if the total number of addresses in the 'owner' and
    'moderator' lists is two.

    I ask because as far as I
    know, these subscribe messages are being sent to me, the administrator, and
    the actual email that is being subscribed/unsubscribed. Is that normal, or
    would it be two different message-ID's, if only 1 message was being sent to
    me and 1 message was being sent to the email address that is being
    subscribed/unsubscribed?

    The owner notice and the user notice are different messages with
    different Message-IDs.

    Note that some notifications such as held message notifications are
    sent twice and have two smtp log entries. The first send has one
    recipient which is the list's -owner address, and this is followed by
    the resend to the owners and moderators. This is not the case for
    (un)subscribe notices however. Subscribe and unsubscribe owner notices
    are sent directly to the owners and moderators without going through
    the -owner address.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Ki Song at Jan 26, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.
    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:

    Message-ID: <mailman.2147.1169820047.30843.list at mailserver.domain.com>

    OK. It is the same message. Did you check the filter rules in your
    email client as Dragon suggests to be sure that they are not
    responsible for duplicating the message?
    I checked the filter rules. I could not find anything that could possibly
    duplicate messages. There is only one reference to the messages that are
    being duplicated (the filter/rule looks for where the message is being SENT
    to)
    Also, What is the contents of the list's owner and moderator
    attributes. Are you or something that forwards to you listed twice?
    Where could I find these attributes? Is it on the web admin interface, or is
    it somewhere else?
    Also, check for that Message-ID in Mailman's 'smtp' log and see how
    many recipients it was sent to.
    The message-ID from mailman's smtp log shows something interesting. Every
    message that is duplicated, shows the same message-ID, but it says that it
    is being sent to 2 recipients. Is that normal? I ask because as far as I
    know, these subscribe messages are being sent to me, the administrator, and
    the actual email that is being subscribed/unsubscribed. Is that normal, or
    would it be two different message-ID's, if only 1 message was being sent to
    me and 1 message was being sent to the email address that is being
    subscribed/unsubscribed?

    One thing I do notice is that the administrator and moderator addresses
    listed in the GENERAL OPTIONS web admin page of each list is the same
    address (newsletter at knifecenter.com).
    Further below, on that same page, there is an option that says, "Should the
    administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes?" I have that
    checked to YES.

    Could it be that because the administrator and moderator addresses are the
    same (newsletter at knifecenter.com) and because the administrator is getting
    notices of subscribes and unsubscribes, that the message is being sent
    twice? I'm assuming the moderator gets notices of subscribes/unsubscribes
    automatically.

    Let me check. (It may take a while ... because there are a couple
    hundred/thousand subscribe/unsubscribe messages in queue.
  • Mark Sapiro at Jan 26, 2007 at 10:10 pm

    Ki Song wrote:
    One thing I do notice is that the administrator and moderator addresses
    listed in the GENERAL OPTIONS web admin page of each list is the same
    address (newsletter at knifecenter.com).

    Bingo!

    Further below, on that same page, there is an option that says, "Should the
    administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes?" I have that
    checked to YES.

    This causes the notice to be sent. This particular notice is sent to
    both the owners and the moderators. You are listed twice - you get it
    twice.

    Some (very few, I don't remember which offhand) notices are sent to
    owner only. Most are sent to owner and moderator. None are sent to
    moderator only. Thus it makes no sense to list an address as both
    owner and moderator and only results in duplicate notices.

    See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.027.htp>
    and
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.060.htp>
    for more information.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Ki Song at Jan 26, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    OK. It is the same message. Did you check the filter rules in your
    email client as Dragon suggests to be sure that they are not
    responsible for duplicating the message?
    I checked the filter rules. I could not find anything that could possibly
    duplicate messages. There is only one reference to the messages that are
    being duplicated (the filter/rule looks for where the message is being SENT
    to)
    Also, What is the contents of the list's owner and moderator
    attributes. Are you or something that forwards to you listed twice?
    Where could I find these attributes? Is it on the web admin interface, or is
    it somewhere else?
    Also, check for that Message-ID in Mailman's 'smtp' log and see how
    many recipients it was sent to.
    The message-ID from mailman's smtp log shows something interesting. Every
    message that is duplicated, shows the same message-ID, but it says that it
    is being sent to 2 recipients. Is that normal? I ask because as far as I
    know, these subscribe messages are being sent to me, the administrator, and
    the actual email that is being subscribed/unsubscribed. Is that normal, or
    would it be two different message-ID's, if only 1 message was being sent to
    me and 1 message was being sent to the email address that is being
    subscribed/unsubscribed?

    One thing I do notice is that the administrator and moderator addresses
    listed in the GENERAL OPTIONS web admin page of each list is the same
    address (newsletter at knifecenter.com).
    Further below, on that same page, there is an option that says, "Should the
    administrator get notices of subscribes and unsubscribes?" I have that
    checked to YES.

    Could it be that because the administrator and moderator addresses are the
    same (newsletter at knifecenter.com) and because the administrator is getting
    notices of subscribes and unsubscribes, that the message is being sent
    twice? I'm assuming the moderator gets notices of subscribes/unsubscribes
    automatically.

    Let me check. (It may take a while ... because there are a couple
    hundred/thousand subscribe/unsubscribe messages in queue.
    That's what it was.
  • Brad Knowles at Jan 26, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    At 3:33 PM -0500 1/26/07, Ki Song wrote:

    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:
    Just because the message-ids are exactly the same doesn't mean that
    this problem wasn't caused by filter rules.

    Check your queue-ids. That will tell you where the duplication is occurring.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>, Consultant & Author
    Co-author of SAGE Booklet #15 "Internet Postmaster: Duties and
    Responsibilities"
    Founding Member and Platinum Individual Sponsor of LOPSA:
    <http://www.lopsa.org>
    Papers: <http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4> LinkedIn Profile:
    <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
  • Alan McConnell at Jan 26, 2007 at 9:41 pm

    On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 02:46:35PM -0600, Brad Knowles wrote:
    At 3:33 PM -0500 1/26/07, Ki Song wrote:

    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:
    Just because the message-ids are exactly the same doesn't mean that
    this problem wasn't caused by filter rules.
    The filter list on my E-list seem pretty simple.
    Check your queue-ids. That will tell you where the duplication is occurring.
    What are "queue-ids"? Are they something that a mailman admin
    can see? I have no access to any log files; they are available
    only to the sys-admins of my ISP.

    Alan

    --
    Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan
    There are many good Impeachment sites; one of the best is:
    www.waifllc.org
  • Brad Knowles at Jan 27, 2007 at 12:52 am

    At 4:41 PM -0500 1/26/07, Alan McConnell wrote:

    Check your queue-ids. That will tell you where the duplication is
    occurring.
    What are "queue-ids"? Are they something that a mailman admin
    can see? I have no access to any log files; they are available
    only to the sys-admins of my ISP.
    The queue-ids are typically shown in the contents of the various
    "Received:" headers on each message. They would also show up in the
    system logs for the mail server. These logs may only be accessible
    to your mail server administrator -- they are outside of Mailman, and
    unfortunately not even the internal Mailman logs are available via
    the web.

    For example, on the message I am responding to, this is a sample of
    the "Received:" headers I found:

    Received: from bag.python.org (bag [127.0.0.1])
    by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943801E4011
    for <mailman-users at python.org>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:42:32 +0100 (CET)
    Received: from bag (HELO bag.python.org) (127.0.0.1)
    by bag.python.org with SMTP; 26 Jan 2007 22:42:32 +0100
    Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3])
    by bag.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
    for <mailman-users at python.org>; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:42:31 +0100 (CET)
    Received: from patriot.net (postfix at pool180-173.patriot.net [209.249.180.173])
    by jefferson.patriot.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3sarge3) with ESMTP
    id l0QLgPrM022931; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:42:29 -0500
    Received: by patriot.net (Postfix, from userid 500)
    id 8ABEC47587; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:41:37 -0500 (EST)

    In each case, where it says "id 8ABEC47587" or "with ESMTP id
    l0QLgPrM022931", or something like that, the ids it is referring to
    are called "queue ids". If you are looking at the system log for the
    mail services on a given server, the only way you can typically tie
    in a given log entry to a given message is through the queue-ids.
    Looking in the system log file for postfix on this machine, the
    entries relevant to queue-id 943801E4011 are:

    Jan 26 22:42:32 bag postfix/smtpd[27954]: 943801E4011: clientºg[127.0.0.1]
    Jan 26 22:42:32 bag postfix/cleanup[28483]: 943801E4011:
    message-id=<20070126214137.GD3294 at patriot.net>
    Jan 26 22:42:32 bag postfix/qmgr[27081]: 943801E4011:
    from=<alan at patriot.net>, size"39, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
    Jan 26 22:42:32 bag postfix/local[28226]: 943801E4011:
    to=<mailman-users at bag.python.org>,
    orig_to=<mailman-users at python.org>, relay=local, delay=0, status=sent
    (delivered to command: /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman post
    mailman-users)
    Jan 26 22:42:32 bag postfix/qmgr[27081]: 943801E4011: removed

    You see the message-id here once, but all the other log entries
    relative to this particular event are logged with only the date and
    the queue-id, as well as whatever other information was being logged.
    So, you need the queue-id in order to be able to tie them all
    together.

    Now, these are not the only log entries for this message. Because of
    the way the mail server on this machine is configured, it actually
    handles each message three times -- once on inbound (before scanning
    for spam and viruses), once on inbound (after scanning), and again
    after the message has gone through Mailman and is being sent out.

    So, if we look for other log entries relative to this message-id, we
    find that we have to look at 992 different queue-ids, one for each of
    the subscribers on the outbound side, plus one on inbound (before
    scanning) and another on inbound (after scanning). I'll spare you
    and not even show you the complete list of all the queue-ids in
    question, and of course I'd never show you the complete set of all
    those log entries.


    Anyway, my point is this -- if you look at the headers of two
    messages that appear to be identical, you can look at the "Received:"
    headers to see if they really are identical. If each and every
    queue-id in both messages are exactly the same, then there must have
    been some sort of duplication that occurred within your mail client
    or somewhere else outside of the normal SMTP Message Transfer Agent
    system. If the queue-ids are identical up to a point but they
    diverge after that point, that tells you exactly where the message
    was somehow duplicated.

    --
    Brad Knowles <brad at shub-internet.org>, Consultant & Author
    Co-author of SAGE Booklet #15 "Internet Postmaster: Duties and
    Responsibilities"
    Founding Member and Platinum Individual Sponsor of LOPSA:
    <http://www.lopsa.org>
    Papers: <http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4> LinkedIn Profile:
    <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
  • Dragon at Jan 26, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    Ki Song wrote:
    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to
    the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    Are you certain of that?

    It could be that the admin has a filter rule in place that duplicates
    the mail and makes it look like it is sent twice.

    If it is indeed being sent twice, I would expect the messages to have
    different message IDs, the time sent may or may not be different. If
    the message IDs are the same on both copies, I would strongly suspect
    you are getting bit by a filter rule and Mailman is doing the right thing.

    Dragon
    I am certain it is the EXACT same message.
    How do I know this?
    The message ID's for the duplicate emails are exactly the same:

    Message-ID: <mailman.2147.1169820047.30843.list at mailserver.domain.com>


    Could this be a postfix issue? I don't think so ... because my other,
    regular messages, are being sent without duplicates.
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    OK, so it is probably NOT mailman causing this. Which is what I said earlier.

    There is a very slim possibility of it being a configuration issue
    with Postfix but I doubt it. It's almost certain to be a MUA filter
    issue instead of an MTA issue.

    Dragon

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  • Alan McConnell at Jan 26, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 12:31:49PM -0500, Ki Song wrote:
    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
    What mailman version are you using? I have exactly this problem,
    and the sysadmins my E-list is running on are running 2.1.5, which
    people here have deprecated.

    Alan

    --
    Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan
    There are many good Impeachment sites; one of the best is:
    www.waifllc.org
  • Paul Tomblin at Jan 26, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    Quoting Alan McConnell (alan at patriot.net):
    On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 12:31:49PM -0500, Ki Song wrote:
    Every subscription/unsubscription notification is sent twice to the admin's
    email address.
    How can I make sure only 1 notification is sent?
    What mailman version are you using? I have exactly this problem,
    and the sysadmins my E-list is running on are running 2.1.5, which
    people here have deprecated.
    I don't think it's anything to do with 2.1.5 - I'm running the same and
    don't get duplicates.

    --
    Paul Tomblin <ptomblin at xcski.com> http://blog.xcski.com/
    "Tech Services - We Aim To Please, We Shoot To Kill"
    -- H. Wade Minter, ASR

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postedJan 26, '07 at 5:31p
activeJan 27, '07 at 12:52a
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