FAQ
Hi!

I have configured a mail server with Sendmail on my office and mails are sent fine.

I'm using MailMan to send a newsletter to a test list of five people, one from hotmail, one from gmail, one from yahoo and two from my ISP (including my address).

The newsletter is sent fine to all of the recipients (I've checked sendmail queue) but for some reason my ISP is discarding the message for their addresses (hotmail, gmail and yahoo are working fine).

I suspect the problem is related to the headers sent by MailMan because when I send the newsletter directly from my mail client trough my office server, it is received without problems (the only difference between the one sent by MailMan and the one sent by my mail client is the headers).

Is there some special header sent by MailMan that is well known as some kind of SPAM header?

Thanks in advance!

Greetings,



Antonio

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  • John W. Baxter at May 21, 2006 at 12:25 am

    On 5/20/06 4:46 PM, "Antonio Dragone" wrote:

    Hi!

    I have configured a mail server with Sendmail on my office and mails are sent
    fine.

    I'm using MailMan to send a newsletter to a test list of five people, one from
    hotmail, one from gmail, one from yahoo and two from my ISP (including my
    address).

    The newsletter is sent fine to all of the recipients (I've checked sendmail
    queue) but for some reason my ISP is discarding the message for their
    addresses (hotmail, gmail and yahoo are working fine).

    I suspect the problem is related to the headers sent by MailMan because when I
    send the newsletter directly from my mail client trough my office server, it
    is received without problems (the only difference between the one sent by
    MailMan and the one sent by my mail client is the headers).

    Is there some special header sent by MailMan that is well known as some kind
    of SPAM header?
    The obvious one is
    Precedence: list

    But that's a silly thing to filter on, and it is correct for Mailman to
    insert it.

    They might not like
    From: <your address with them> coming with the envelope sender.

    Or they might be running a silly challenge-response system

    All of those would essentially mean that one can't receive messages from
    mailing lists at that ISP (or that you have to configure something related
    to your account to allow it).

    Anyone else?

    --John
  • Mark Sapiro at May 21, 2006 at 1:26 am

    John W. Baxter wrote:
    On 5/20/06 4:46 PM, "Antonio Dragone" wrote:

    Hi!

    I have configured a mail server with Sendmail on my office and mails are sent
    fine.

    I'm using MailMan to send a newsletter to a test list of five people, one from
    hotmail, one from gmail, one from yahoo and two from my ISP (including my
    address).

    Presumably, Mailman is sending via the same Sendmail server.

    The newsletter is sent fine to all of the recipients (I've checked sendmail
    queue) but for some reason my ISP is discarding the message for their
    addresses (hotmail, gmail and yahoo are working fine).

    I suspect the problem is related to the headers sent by MailMan because when I
    send the newsletter directly from my mail client trough my office server, it
    is received without problems (the only difference between the one sent by
    MailMan and the one sent by my mail client is the headers).

    And the envelope.

    They might not like
    From: <your address with them> coming with the envelope sender.

    I just want to emphasize this. When you send via your mail client, the
    message is From: you and the envelope is most likely from you, but
    when you post to your list and Mailman sends, the message is still
    From: you (assuming you don't have an anonymous list), but the
    envelope is from <listname>-bounces at list.domain.

    Your ISP may well decide that a message purportedly from you at your.isp
    sent by some other domain is forged.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Peter C.S. Adams at May 22, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    Thus spake Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net>, circa 5/20/2006 9:26 PM:
    I just want to emphasize this. When you send via your mail client, the message
    is From: you and the envelope is most likely from you, but when you post to
    your list and Mailman sends, the message is still From: you (assuming you
    don't have an anonymous list), but the envelope is from
    <listname>-bounces at list.domain. Your ISP may well decide that a message
    purportedly from you at your.isp sent by some other domain is forged.
    This is certainly possible, but I want to emphasize this: if the ISP is
    doing this they are 100% WRONG!

    RFC 2821 specifies that the envelope header "From" can -- and in some cases
    MUST -- differ from the "From" in the message itself. There are a variety of
    headers, such as From, Resent-From, Errors-To, and there are legitimate
    reasons for all of them to be different.

    If you find an ISP that is blocking mail from your list due to the makeup of
    the envelope headers, you should encourage them to read the relevant mail
    transport RFCs and invest in some decent Bayesian spam filtering software.
    Then encourage your subscribers at that ISP to find another ISP

    --
    Peter C.S. Adams (617) 287-7118
    Director of Information and Communication Technologies
    College of Public and Community Service, UMass Boston
    "Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one;
    enemy to none." -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack
  • Antonio Dragone at May 21, 2006 at 4:16 am
    Thank you very much John & Mark for your answers!

    I don't know if it is related to Mailman-Users but... is there some way to change the envelope of the messages?

    Bye,

    Antonio
  • Mark Sapiro at May 21, 2006 at 2:10 pm

    Antonio Dragone wrote:
    I don't know if it is related to Mailman-Users but... is there some way to change the envelope of the messages?
    There is no "setting" for this. You have to change the code in
    Mailman/Handlers/SendMail.py, but if you do, it will break automated
    bounce processing.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Antonio Dragone at May 21, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    On 5/21/06, Mark Sapiro wrote:

    There is no "setting" for this. You have to change the code in
    Mailman/Handlers/SendMail.py, but if you do, it will break automated
    bounce processing.
    Thanks Mark!
    I prefer to "break" automated bounce processing instead of letting my
    subscribers without their "e-news" paper? ;)

    In the other hand, I have read some recommendations about not to use
    Sendmail.py and I imagine Mailman is not using it because I have not
    changed the default configuration (am I wrong?)
    Anyway, I'm away from my office until Monday and I can't take a look
    on the configuration files remotely.

    Regards,
    Antonio
  • Mark Sapiro at May 21, 2006 at 6:09 pm

    Antonio Dragone wrote:
    On 5/21/06, Mark Sapiro wrote:

    There is no "setting" for this. You have to change the code in
    Mailman/Handlers/SendMail.py, but if you do, it will break automated
    bounce processing.
    Thanks Mark!
    I prefer to "break" automated bounce processing instead of letting my
    subscribers without their "e-news" paper� ;)

    In the other hand, I have read some recommendations about not to use
    Sendmail.py and I imagine Mailman is not using it because I have not
    changed the default configuration (am I wrong?)
    My mistake. You are not using Sendmail.py (you have to do several,
    non-default things to enable it and make it useable). I was typing too
    quickly and carelessly. I meant Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py, not
    Sendmail.py.

    However, I think you said that your problem, if it is caused by the
    envelope sender, is limited to recipients in your own ISP's domain.
    Perhaps you could 'fix' it in some other way. I think you first need
    to determine, perhaps with the ISP, exactly why these messages aren't
    being delivered. Since your Sendmail MTA reports no error, it somehow
    is occurring within the ISP. If it is the fact that the From: is from
    a user in the ISP's domain, and the envelope is not, it would seem to
    say that no one could post to any Mailman (or perhaps other MLM) list
    from that domain and have their post delivered back to anyone in that
    domain. It doesn't seem that the ISP would really want that.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Matthew Thompson at May 22, 2006 at 3:46 pm
    One thing I would test is to send a message from one of the other
    addresses on the list (say the gmail account) and see if the message
    makes it to all of the recipients.

    I had a problem that sounds a lot like yours. The cause was the ISP
    filtering out incoming messages with a from address with their domain
    name. If someone from a different domain sent a message, it all worked
    fine.

    If that is the cause of your problem, I have a custom handler that I
    could probably clean up and send to you that would get you most of the
    way to fixing the issue.

    An even simpler fix is to make the list anonymous but that has it's own
    list of drawbacks.

    Good luck!

    -Matt
  • Antonio Dragone at May 22, 2006 at 9:31 pm
    Thank you very much to all!
    I have solved the problem with your guidance?

    After reading the last messages from Mark, Peter and Matt, I decided
    to dig into the "list address affair (the sender header)"? for my
    surprise, the email sender was "listname-bounces[at]myhostname"
    instead of "listname-bounces[at]myhostname.domain_name", after
    changing the option "host_name" in "General Options" to a full
    qualified domain name, the problem was solved!

    My ISP was discarding the messages because the sender was not
    formatted properly... not a "legal" name for their SPAM filters I
    think.

    Regards!

    Antonio
  • Dragon at May 22, 2006 at 9:56 pm
    Antonio Dragone sent the message below at 14:31 5/22/2006:
    Thank you very much to all!
    I have solved the problem with your guidance
    After reading the last messages from Mark, Peter and Matt, I decided
    to dig into the "list address affair (the sender header)" for my
    surprise, the email sender was "listname-bounces[at]myhostname"
    instead of "listname-bounces[at]myhostname.domain_name", after
    changing the option "host_name" in "General Options" to a full
    qualified domain name, the problem was solved!

    My ISP was discarding the messages because the sender was not
    formatted properly... not a "legal" name for their SPAM filters I
    think.
    ---------------- End original message. ---------------------

    It probably has nothing to do with spam filters.
    If your ISP has their MTA properly configured so
    it is not an open relay, it is very likely the
    MTA refusing to relay mail from a source it does
    not recognize as valid. Without the fully
    qualified domain name, the MTA has no idea if
    somebody is trying to bounce spam off of it, it
    needs it to verify that the mail is from an allowed sender.

    This is a good thing.

    Dragon

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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postedMay 20, '06 at 11:46p
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