FAQ
Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days. Since
I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
developer's list?

The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Linux system uptime 248 days 19 hours 33 minutes

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  • Brad Knowles at Mar 3, 2005 at 7:54 pm

    At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
    It's been down a lot longer than that. See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.025.htp>.
    Since
    I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
    listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
    developer's list?
    I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
    The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
    I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members
    and the other commands at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.009.htp>?

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Chuq Von Rospach at Mar 3, 2005 at 8:24 pm
    is the owner of listowerns.org around? if so, drop me a note, will you?
    I'm willing to take it over and operate it.

    On Mar 3, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
    At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
    It's been down a lot longer than that. See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq01.025.htp>.
    Since
    I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
    listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
    developer's list?
    I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
    The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
    I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members and
    the other commands at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq04.009.htp>?

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Mailman-Users mailing list
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    Searchable Archives:
    http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
    Unsubscribe:
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    chuqui%40plaidworks.com

    Security Policy:
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    file=faq01.027.htp
  • Willie McKemie at Mar 4, 2005 at 1:06 am

    On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:54:39PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
    At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
    It's been down a lot longer than that. See
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.025.htp>.
    Must not be many of us users of hosting services needing mailman help?
    Since
    I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
    listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
    developer's list?
    I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
    The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
    I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members
    and the other commands at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.009.htp>?
    No shell access to my hosting service. I presume I would at least need
    the shell access to do a list_members? I do have access to cron jobs
    and I have used that to poke around a bit and locate the subsriber
    lists. No luck there. Would I likely have access to list_members if I
    had shell access?

    I have found that I can not easily get a list of subscribers emailed to
    me with a "who" command transmitted via email. I would have to change
    a parameter on each and every subscriber via the web interface. Total
    number of subscribers spread over two lists is about 400. Is there a
    convenient way to expose the addresses of all subscribers?

    In the past, I have copied and pasted out of the web listing of
    subscribers. That, too, is pretty tedious at 20 a time. Not something
    I'd want to do every week or so.

    HEY! I think I've got it! I put "~mailman/bin/list_members >
    list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains
    list_members help.

    --
    Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
    http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
    Linux system uptime 249 days 7 hours 58 minutes
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 4, 2005 at 1:34 am

    At 7:06 PM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:

    No shell access to my hosting service.
    That would be a problem.
    I presume I would at least need
    the shell access to do a list_members?
    Directly or indirectly, yes.
    I do have access to cron jobs
    and I have used that to poke around a bit and locate the subsriber
    lists. No luck there. Would I likely have access to list_members if I
    had shell access?
    Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to have read and execute
    permissions available to you into the space where Mailman is
    installed, usually in /usr/local/mailman/. Even if you had shell
    access, your hosting provider might not give you that kind of access.
    I have found that I can not easily get a list of subscribers emailed to
    me with a "who" command transmitted via email. I would have to change
    a parameter on each and every subscriber via the web interface. Total
    number of subscribers spread over two lists is about 400. Is there a
    convenient way to expose the addresses of all subscribers?
    I think you're going to need to use the script tools I previously
    mentioned. I don't remember the exact URL, you'll need to search the
    archives of the list.
    HEY! I think I've got it! I put "~mailman/bin/list_members >
    list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains
    list_members help.
    Oh? Wow. I wouldn't have expected that you'd be that lucky. Cool.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Willie McKemie at Mar 4, 2005 at 2:12 am

    HEY! I think I've got it! I put "~mailman/bin/list_members >
    list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains
    list_members help.
    Oh? Wow. I wouldn't have expected that you'd be that lucky. Cool.
    Now, I'm stuck (again). Doing "~mailman/bin/list_members [listname] >
    [listname]" created [listname] but left it empty.

    Doing "~mailman/bin/list_lists > list_lists" created list_lists but
    left it empty.

    So, it appears that I'm not really getting to my mailman data.
    Probably some path problem that I don't understand.

    Taking some other tacks, I have access to supposed mailman backup files.
    Including there is a config.pck for each list. The .pck files contain
    the subscribers, but not in an easily decipherable form. Any idea what
    I might do with a .pck file?

    I just did a local install of mailman to try to better understand where
    things are, but I haven't gotten it to start. Probably because I don't
    have a mail server. I do have apache running on the same box that has
    mailman. Any suggestions on using a local mailman? How to turn off the
    expectation of actually sending mail?

    --
    Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
    http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
    Linux system uptime 249 days 9 hours 01 minutes
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 4, 2005 at 7:28 am

    At 8:12 PM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Now, I'm stuck (again). Doing "~mailman/bin/list_members [listname] >
    [listname]" created [listname] but left it empty.

    Doing "~mailman/bin/list_lists > list_lists" created list_lists but
    left it empty.
    Ahh. These might be permissions problems. You may have execute
    permissions to run the scripts, but you might not have read
    permissions to access the data.
    So, it appears that I'm not really getting to my mailman data.
    Probably some path problem that I don't understand.
    Could be, but I'd be willing to bet that it's actually a permissions issue.

    The only way to know for sure would be to get it working, and
    then figure out what had to be fixed.
    Taking some other tacks, I have access to supposed mailman backup files.
    Including there is a config.pck for each list. The .pck files contain
    the subscribers, but not in an easily decipherable form. Any idea what
    I might do with a .pck file?
    That's something you'd need to feed to one of the Mailman
    scripts. With a local Mailman installation, a .pck file for a list,
    and the Mailman scripts, you should be able to do a list_members on
    that pickle file and have the system Do The Right Thing.
    I just did a local install of mailman to try to better understand where
    things are, but I haven't gotten it to start. Probably because I don't
    have a mail server. I do have apache running on the same box that has
    mailman. Any suggestions on using a local mailman? How to turn off the
    expectation of actually sending mail?
    I don't know that being unable to send e-mail should be a
    problem. I'd expect you to be able to get all the web admin stuff
    working fine. However, in your case, I don't think either the web
    nor the mail admin stuff is necessary.

    What I think you want to be able to do is to apply the Mailman
    scripts to configuration files from your lists, and that should be
    do-able without either a mail server or a web server.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 4, 2005 at 3:09 pm

    At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Alright, some movement here. I found the scripts on my local mailman
    install and seem to be able to execute them. Now, how do I get the
    list_members script to operate on data in a config.pck file?
    "<path>/mailman/bin/list_members <path>/config.pck"
    doesn't do it.
    Those scripts expect to find the pickle files in their standard
    locations, according to the list name. So, one way to do that would
    be to create a local version of the list which is empty, and then
    stuff in the config.pck file that you downloaded in place of the
    empty config.pck that was created for that local version of the list.

    Then all the command-line tools should "just work".
    The above route to lists of members is not all that attractive to me
    since I have to download a file of about 200mb to get to those
    relatively small config.pck files.
    There are a lot of things that can be done without too much
    hassle if you've got privileged access to the mail server where
    Mailman is installed, and you can log into the machine directly and
    get a shell prompt.

    Many of those things might be desirable to do from the web for
    site administrators or list managers, but that is not currently
    possible.


    Part of the problem is that Mailman was designed to be used in an
    environment where you install it yourself on your own machine(s), and
    not in a service provider environment. Some groups like cPanel and
    Plesk recognize that issue and apply a great deal of customization to
    try to hide some of these problems, or to hide those features of
    Mailman which would otherwise be desirable but would not be
    accessible via the web.

    Some will install Mailman in a central location, but then they
    find that supporting all their users becomes very expensive. They
    either have to charge amounts like $75-100/hour for any kind of
    change that would require involvement by one of their Site
    Administrators, or they stop providing those services altogether.


    These are known issues, and I believe that many of them are
    targeted for being addressed in the upcoming Mailman versions (mm3)
    development branch, but that doesn't help you today.

    The current version of Mailman just wasn't designed to be
    used/abused the way that many sites are installing it. There's a
    limit to how much we can do to support customers of such sites.
    Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
    an email command. Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
    Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
    Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
    Please file this on the Mailman RFE page at SourceForge.
    Maybe I should be thinking about "maximum number of members per page"?
    Could do, sure.
    Is that parameter likely to be available to me as a hosting service
    customer?
    Unfortunately not. ;(

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 5, 2005 at 1:56 am

    At 7:28 PM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:

    In trying to do the above (on local mailman install), I get:
    Illegal list name: [listname]@localhost
    when I do a "newlist". No matter how I specify the [listname].
    "list_lists" continues to show no lists.
    Can you show us an example of what you're doing on your local
    machine, and compare/contrast this with what you did to create the
    "real" list on the webserver?

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Mark Sapiro at Mar 5, 2005 at 7:51 pm

    At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
    Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
    an email command. Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
    Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
    Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
    There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
    to do these things See
    http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Willie McKemie at Mar 6, 2005 at 1:28 am

    On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 11:51:32AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
    At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
    an email command. Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
    Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
    Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
    There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
    to do these things See
    http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb
    That's VERY interesting, thanks.

    I am not at all familiar with python. I assume those scripts are to be
    executed on my local system rather than my web host? I just installed
    python and messed with the scripts some. I first ran
    mailman-subscribers.py with the three command line parameters. It ran
    a minute or two (or three), but yielded no output. "Well", says I,
    "maybe I need to first 'unhide' all members first". So, I edited
    "unhide.py" and changed what seemed appropriate: listname and URL.
    Changed 'password' and 'listpassword' on the line that begins with
    "params". Ran unhide.py. Quick execution, no errors, no output.

    A bit more help?

    --
    Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
    http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
    Linux system uptime 251 days 8 hours 26 minutes
  • Mark Sapiro at Mar 6, 2005 at 2:31 am

    Willie McKemie wrote:
    On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 11:51:32AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
    At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:

    Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
    an email command. Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
    Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
    Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
    There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
    to do these things See
    http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb
    That's VERY interesting, thanks.

    I am not at all familiar with python. I assume those scripts are to be
    executed on my local system rather than my web host?
    That's correct.
    I just installed
    python and messed with the scripts some. I first ran
    mailman-subscribers.py with the three command line parameters. It ran
    a minute or two (or three), but yielded no output.
    It works for me.

    ./mailman-subscribers.py -f www.example.com my_list my_list_pw

    What happens if you use -v or --verbose?

    "Well", says I,
    "maybe I need to first 'unhide' all members first".
    You shouldn't need to.
    So, I edited
    "unhide.py" and changed what seemed appropriate: listname and URL. Correct.
    Changed 'password' and 'listpassword' on the line that begins with
    "params".
    The literal 'password' is not changed. 'listpassword' is replaced with
    'the_actual_password' (i.e. it should still be quoted.)
    Ran unhide.py. Quick execution, no errors, no output.
    This one is not so useful because it reads a list of members to unhide
    from the subscribers.txt local file. If you don't know who the hidden
    members are, it won't help you.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Willie McKemie at Mar 6, 2005 at 11:53 am

    On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 08:27:48PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:

    This one is not so useful because it reads a list of members to unhide
    from the subscribers.txt local file. If you don't know who the hidden
    members are, it won't help you.
    Does mailman-subscribers.py list "hidden" subscribers?
    Yes. It uses the admin Membership List page which it assumes it
    accesses via http://<hostname>/mailman/admin/<listname>/members. This
    lists all members, hidden or not.
    If you are willing or care to diddle, I set up a maillist "test",
    password <omitted>.

    If I try to go to http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test or to
    http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/homegrown/ or
    http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test/members or
    http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/homegrown/members
    I get the generic admin page with the error message "No such list test"
    or "No such list homegrown".

    Until you can access these list's admin interfaces with a web browser,
    you won't be able to do it with the script either.

    Can you access the admin interface with a web browser? If so, what URL?
    If not http://<hostname>/mailman/admin/<listname>/members, you'll have
    to modify the script like the following (watch for folded lines):
    HOT DAMN!

    The list names are <expectedlistname>_austinfarm.org. URLs:
    http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin
    http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test_austinfarm.org
    etc

    I had been accessing lists through links on
    http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin and not paying close attention to
    those links.

    AND.... mailman-subscribers.py works for me as advertised!

    Is there somewhere on the mailman site that I should post my
    experience? To make the path easier for those following?
    In particular, mailman-subscribers.py should be easier to find than it
    seems to be.

    --
    Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
    http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
    Linux system uptime 251 days 18 hours 46 minutes
  • Brad Knowles at Mar 6, 2005 at 3:46 pm

    At 5:53 AM -0600 2005-03-06, Willie McKemie wrote:

    The list names are <expectedlistname>_austinfarm.org. URLs:
    http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin
    http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test_austinfarm.org
    etc
    This sounds like you're using a version of Mailman that has been
    hacked to support virtual domains, either by cPanel, or something
    along the lines of
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.047.htp>.

    Either way, these are hacks to the Mailman code, and the display
    is necessarily a little different from what you would expect from a
    standard installation. That would certainly explain your confusion.
    Is there somewhere on the mailman site that I should post my
    experience? To make the path easier for those following?
    In particular, mailman-subscribers.py should be easier to find than it
    seems to be.
    You can always add something to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py>. We would ask that you
    look over the entries there and try to find the right section, but
    beyond that it's pretty much up to you what you want to put there.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

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postedMar 3, '05 at 12:27p
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