Hi

Just some humble feedback on the response message;

This is one area where I find users fall over and die and the complexity of
the response and don't know what to do. [ And it is usually normal users
that are trying to use it to unsubscribe ]. It is very techie.

Little things might help, like a few actual examples, so that something like
[address=<address>] means something to them, and spaces between the " < > "
or " [ ] " so they are not confronted by strange signs. [] looks like a box.

I am not a coder and so cannot help I am afraid but may be an upgrade would
be to autogenerate an email with a series of clickable links that generate
emails that work with the given addresses.

... with unsubscribe *RIGHT* up the top!

Have not worked out where to customise this myself yet but my 2c worth of
thanks,

MA
is there a list of command that can be sent to mailman via email
like (un)subscribe, who, vacation, stop ?
You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to:

[listname]-request at example.com

with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the
quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions.

Search Discussions

  • Demo at Sep 25, 2004 at 11:43 am
    One other aside,

    When one uses an email command to a list such as;

    listname-unsubscribe at lists.domain.com

    To a list that is set up announcement only or emergency moderation, the
    first thing you get back is the message one has set to say, e.g. " sorry,
    only administrators can post to this list ".

    *Then* one receives the bounce with instructions on how to unsubscribe.,

    Have I missed a setting that would stop admin requests receiving such a
    first email or is it just one of those things arising because Mailman is
    really not meant to be used as announcement only list?

    Thanks,

    MA
    From: <mailman-users-request at python.org>
    Reply-To: <mailman-users at python.org>
    Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 12:00:42 +0200 (CEST)
    To: <mailman-users at python.org>
    Subject: Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 7, Issue 70

    is there a list of command that can be sent to mailman via email

    like (un)subscribe, who, vacation, stop ?
  • Brad Knowles at Sep 25, 2004 at 12:19 pm

    At 12:27 PM +0100 2004-09-25, demo wrote:

    I am not a coder and so cannot help I am afraid but may be an upgrade would
    be to autogenerate an email with a series of clickable links that generate
    emails that work with the given addresses.
    Mailman is an open source project, and we would welcome any
    patches you may have that would achieve these goals.

    Alternatively, you can put this on the "wish list" and hope that
    someone, someday, might get around to working on this. Here is where
    you can post your feature request.
    <http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id3&atid50103>.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Mark Sapiro at Sep 25, 2004 at 3:05 pm

    demo wrote:
    Just some humble feedback on the response message;

    This is one area where I find users fall over and die and the complexity of
    the response and don't know what to do. [ And it is usually normal users
    that are trying to use it to unsubscribe ]. It is very techie.

    Little things might help, like a few actual examples, so that something like
    [address=<address>] means something to them, and spaces between the " < > "
    or " [ ] " so they are not confronted by strange signs. [] looks like a box.

    I am not a coder and so cannot help I am afraid but may be an upgrade would
    be to autogenerate an email with a series of clickable links that generate
    emails that work with the given addresses.

    .... with unsubscribe *RIGHT* up the top!

    Have not worked out where to customise this myself yet but my 2c worth of
    thanks,
    The help response is the help.txt file in the appropriate locale
    directory in the templates directory.

    One reason these are templates is to enable site specific changes to
    meet site needs. You can edit these templates and a future update will
    not overlay your changes.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Mark Sapiro at Sep 25, 2004 at 4:24 pm

    Mark Sapiro wrote:
    One reason these are templates is to enable site specific changes to
    meet site needs. You can edit these templates and a future update will
    not overlay your changes.
    Clarification: The last sentence above applies if you are upgrading
    from source. I have no idea what will happen with Apple or other
    vendor supplied package upgrades.

    --
    Mark Sapiro <msapiro at value.net> The highway is for gamblers,
    San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Oct 4, 2004 at 8:16 am
    "demo" == demo <macangels at spamcop.net> writes:
    demo> I am not a coder and so cannot help I am afraid but may be
    demo> an upgrade would be to autogenerate an email with a series
    demo> of clickable links that generate emails that work with the
    demo> given addresses.

    demo> ... with unsubscribe *RIGHT* up the top!

    Of course mailman and all the other MLMs could do it, as pointed out
    by others, but that's broken, evil, nasty, and should be resisted. :-)

    There is a standard way to do this that the MUA (user's mail program)
    can and should learn to use: the List-* headers, which contain the
    relevant URLs. For example, in Gnus (the MUA I use), I just type 't',
    which exposes all the headers, including clickable links for both mail
    and web interfaces to Mailman-Users. Now, Gnus is intended for
    experts, so I get (and want) a lot of "junk" that you probably don't
    want, but it would not be hard for a "user-friendly" MUA to hide the
    junk. Or, as an alternative UI, recognize the List-* headers and
    provide a "Mailing List" item in the menubar, with Subscribe,
    Unsubscribe, Followup, Post, Help, and Visit Archive commands.

    Looking at the sources, it turns out that a rather small amount of MUA
    code is producing a large number of useful links. It just looks at
    each header, and if it looks like an URL, it makes it a web link. If
    it looks like a Message-ID, it makes it a search in its message DB.
    If it looks like a mail address, it makes it clickable to generate a
    new mail. Three regular expressions (text matchers), two of which
    already were part of the program, and a half a dozen lines of code per
    expression to wrap a link around the matched text. That's all!

    Making it friendlier requires only filtering out some of the links
    that aren't normally useful, or providing options to display only an
    interesting subset, or adding special cases (eg, Gnus does somewhat
    different things depending on whether the address is the author, the
    mailing list, or another recipient). Also, because this is done by my
    MUA, I can easily customize it locally, with _much_ more flexibility
    than Mailman could afford to provide. It's not rocket science, and
    the payoff is large.

    The only disadvantage to this approach is that it requires cooperation
    from the large MUA vendors like Microsoft and Qualcomm, and the users
    know they're far more likely to get sympathy and timely action, at no
    cost in money or effort to them, from their listmasters. So that's who
    gets an earful. :-(


    --
    Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
    University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
    Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
    ask what your business can "do for" free software.
  • John W. Baxter at Oct 4, 2004 at 5:24 pm

    On 10/4/2004 1:16, "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote:

    The only disadvantage to this approach is that it requires cooperation
    from the large MUA vendors like Microsoft and Qualcomm, and the users
    know they're far more likely to get sympathy and timely action, at no
    cost in money or effort to them, from their listmasters. So that's who
    gets an earful. :-(
    Take a look at the heading part of RFC 2919
    eg, at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2919.html
    particularly the part that says QUALCOMM, Inc.

    Now look at Qualcom's MUA products and their implementation of the RFC.
    This appears to be low priority, in that Eudora 5 and 6 have emerged since
    the RFC.

    --John
  • Brad Knowles at Oct 4, 2004 at 9:04 pm

    At 10:24 AM -0700 2004-10-04, John W. Baxter wrote:

    Now look at Qualcom's MUA products and their implementation of the RFC.
    This appears to be low priority, in that Eudora 5 and 6 have emerged since
    the RFC.
    Qualcomm does just fine in this respect. Qualcomm is not the
    problem. Microsoft is the problem.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • John W. Baxter at Oct 5, 2004 at 12:17 am

    On 10/4/2004 14:04, "Brad Knowles" wrote:
    At 10:24 AM -0700 2004-10-04, John W. Baxter wrote:

    Now look at Qualcom's MUA products and their implementation of the RFC.
    This appears to be low priority, in that Eudora 5 and 6 have emerged since
    the RFC.
    Qualcomm does just fine in this respect. Qualcomm is not the
    problem.
    Not that I had noticed. Although I don't read many mailing lists in Mac
    Eudora any more. (Also, I wasn't the original accuser of Qualcomm.)

    OK, so what does Eudora do to make the RFC 2919 headers useful? All I think
    it does out of the box is not filter any of them in its presentation of a
    message, leading to endless complaints about "those headers" and being the
    prime trigger for Mailman's current ability to turn them off. (Then there
    was fine-tuning about the List-Post vs announce-only lists, not caused by
    Eudora.)

    Adding them to the Boring Headers list is easier in Mac Eudora than in
    Windows Eudora, and I added most of them to the list in Mac Eudora, so that
    I had a chance of reading the actual message without scrolling. (I did edit
    the appropriate .ini file for Windows Eudora once...that edit was lost in
    the death of a hard drive (my Windows machine isn't important enough to
    justify the level of backups which would have gotten it back)).

    --John
  • Brad Knowles at Oct 5, 2004 at 12:39 am

    At 5:17 PM -0700 2004-10-04, John W. Baxter wrote:

    OK, so what does Eudora do to make the RFC 2919 headers useful? All I think
    it does out of the box is not filter any of them in its presentation of a
    message, leading to endless complaints about "those headers" and being the
    prime trigger for Mailman's current ability to turn them off. (Then there
    was fine-tuning about the List-Post vs announce-only lists, not caused by
    Eudora.)
    Well, by default, it doesn't ignore or hide the List-* headers,
    and turns them into proper clickable links. If you want to turn that
    behaviour off, then you have to follow the instructions in
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.001.htp>,
    which apparently a lot of people are stupid enough to do.

    If so, then the List-* headers are now hidden because you went
    out of your way to configure your MUA to that, and you deserve what
    you get.


    This is all that needs to be done to properly implement the RFC.
    Mailman does the right thing here, as does Qualcomm/Eudora. The real
    problem is Microsoft and all the stupid users who don't want any of
    that crap they can't understand, but which they need.

    Maybe the next edition of Eudora should make it impossible to
    turn off those headers.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • John W. Baxter at Oct 5, 2004 at 3:34 am

    On 10/4/2004 17:39, "Brad Knowles" wrote:
    At 5:17 PM -0700 2004-10-04, John W. Baxter wrote:

    OK, so what does Eudora do to make the RFC 2919 headers useful? All I think
    it does out of the box is not filter any of them in its presentation of a
    message, leading to endless complaints about "those headers" and being the
    prime trigger for Mailman's current ability to turn them off. (Then there
    was fine-tuning about the List-Post vs announce-only lists, not caused by
    Eudora.)
    Well, by default, it doesn't ignore or hide the List-* headers,
    and turns them into proper clickable links. If you want to turn that
    behaviour off, then you have to follow the instructions in
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.001.htp>,
    which apparently a lot of people are stupid enough to do.
    Thank you for the URL...clearly making the adjustments has become easier on
    the Windows side than it used to be. (It was always easy on Mac, back long
    enough to predate RFC 2919.)
    If so, then the List-* headers are now hidden because you went
    out of your way to configure your MUA to that, and you deserve what
    you get.
    Thanks. What I get is a nice clean window with the one List-* header I need
    somewhat often, and the others available at one click of the BLAH Blah blah
    button. (That comment should show that I don't use the Preview pane.)

    This is all that needs to be done to properly implement the RFC.
    It's an implementation of the RFC. As a Eudora user I would much prefer to
    see the headers subsumed into a nice menu item or items, or message window
    button bar buttons, or some other implementation that doesn't take up so
    much of the message space. And I know from reactions ranging from grumbling
    to mutiny in other venues that I'm not alone.

    In fact, the message I replied to lumped Microsoft and Qualcomm together; I
    didn't.

    However, since I don't use Eudora to handle the bulk of my lists any more,
    it's somewhat moot for me.

    Mailman does the right thing here, as does Qualcomm/Eudora. The real
    problem is Microsoft and all the stupid users who don't want any of
    that crap they can't understand, but which they need.

    Maybe the next edition of Eudora should make it impossible to
    turn off those headers.
    I hope not. That would just trigger more list operators to turn the headers
    off in Mailman settings (which would not be a good thing: the List-*
    headers ARE a good thing, when the MUA implements them [rationally]).

    When I was using Eudora for lists, I turned off all but List-Post:--others
    might elect to leave List-Archive: on as well.

    --John
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Oct 5, 2004 at 7:58 am
    "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:
    Brad> Well, by default, it doesn't ignore or hide the List-*
    Brad> headers, and turns them into proper clickable links. [...]

    Brad> This is all that needs to be done to properly
    Brad> implement the RFC.

    If you think that's "proper" .... Hm ... let's put it this way:

    For most users most of the time those headers are an annoyance.
    They're already subscribed, 'F' directs a followup to the list, they
    don't want to unsubscribe, etc. The rest of the time, it's trivial to
    format them as a pulldown or popup menu. Wouldn't _you_ prefer them
    that way? The only question is how to properly draw attention to the
    facility so it doesn't get lost in the Macromedia[tm] Flash[R].

    Brad> Mailman does the right thing here,

    Agreed.

    Brad> as does Qualcomm/Eudora.

    Arguable, as it's basically what Gnus does ;-), but apparently the
    users disagree. The Eudora interface reeks of Emacs thinking, which
    *I* love, but I wouldn't inflict on my mother or even my siblings (two
    out of three of whom develop software for a living).

    Look, since Eudora is doing basically the right thing here, I should
    stop trashtalking them. (*sigh*, again. It's a sad world we live in
    when drawing parallels to Emacs is "trashtalk".) But we can and
    should (IMHO) encourage them to offer the users something which is a
    _clear_ (even to one looking through stained-glass Windows)
    improvement over Murky-sloppy software.

    Uncle Benji> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to
    Uncle Benji> purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither
    Uncle Benji> Liberty nor Safety."

    True, but remember: deservedly or not, they outvote us 100 to 1.

    --
    Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
    University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
    Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
    ask what your business can "do for" free software.
  • Brad Knowles at Oct 5, 2004 at 8:52 am

    At 4:58 PM +0900 2004-10-05, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

    The rest of the time, it's trivial to
    format them as a pulldown or popup menu.
    You mean that you think they're going to understand or remember
    how to use a pulldown or popup menu? For the class of luser we're
    talking about, I find that very hard to believe.
    Wouldn't _you_ prefer them
    that way?
    No. I prefer them to be shown at all times, which is what
    Qualcomm/Eudora does by default, unless you go out of your way to
    change that configuration.
    The only question is how to properly draw attention to the
    facility so it doesn't get lost in the Macromedia[tm] Flash[R].
    If it's not shiny-shiny, they can't understand it. If it's
    anything more than shiny-shiny, they can't understand it. Let's face
    it -- they can't understand it no matter what.

    They couldn't find their butt with both hands, in a room with
    mirrors on all surfaces, and a set of detailed instructions with
    diagrams. We're expecting that they'll be able to operate an MUA?
    But we can and
    should (IMHO) encourage them to offer the users something which is a
    _clear_ (even to one looking through stained-glass Windows)
    improvement over Murky-sloppy software.
    Can and do.
    Uncle Benji> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to
    Uncle Benji> purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither
    Uncle Benji> Liberty nor Safety."

    True, but remember: deservedly or not, they outvote us 100 to 1.
    It doesn't have to be that way. If you are a member of the
    zombie majority that lets people steamroller over you because you
    believe this to be true, you can join activist groups like
    moveon.org, and help to make your voice heard. If you don't agree
    with their political agenda, there are probably other activist
    organizations whose political agendas you find less offensive.

    But it is vitally important that you vote. Even though we are
    all just individuals, we can be surprisingly loud if we all decide to
    speak up at the same time.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

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