FAQ
At the moment i can insert, such as header and footer, in the messages sent via Mailman Mailing lists only pure text and links. Is it possible, for the administrator/moderator of the lists, to insert images, html code, banner, java feed or other complex code, such as header and footer, in every message sent via Mailman Mailing lists ???
If yes. If it is possible... What is the system ??? Have you some instructions ? A link ? Exist an rpm or a modification ???

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  • Brad Knowles at Aug 15, 2004 at 9:11 pm

    At 10:04 PM +0200 2004-08-15, Ulisse wrote:

    At the moment i can insert, such as header and footer, in the messages
    sent via Mailman Mailing lists only pure text and links. Is it possible,
    for the administrator/moderator of the lists, to insert images, html
    code, banner, java feed or other complex code, such as header and
    footer, in every message sent via Mailman Mailing lists ???
    If you had bothered to follow the instructions at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>,
    you should have been able to find (without too much trouble) the FAQ
    entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.037.htp>.
    If yes. If it is possible... What is the system ??? Have you some
    instructions ? A link ? Exist an rpm or a modification ???
    See above.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Zzizzle at Aug 16, 2004 at 11:23 am
    I have to say I have the same questions. I think this is a valid
    question and the stuff on these links only confuses me more. I love
    this system, and I only vaguely seem to remember about 11 subliminal
    messages that basically tell you no - that this system isn't designed
    for those frills. If that's not the case, could someone please answer
    this question in a way people like me can understand? I am not a
    programmer, and I think a lot of these links are confusing to
    non-programmers. I still have a list of questions I can't seem to get
    answered (for myself), but am still thrilled with the system and have
    been making it work in a way that I love.

    For instance:
    1) Can you add an html header to the emails? I still don't get it. I
    read the links you provided, and their sub-links.

    2) Is there a way so people subscribing don't go back into that archaic
    interface - when it asks them to accept or decline the list it's flat
    out confusing - text overwhelm - my user base is consumers and not
    programmers. Why should a) they have too choose or deny when they are
    clicking on a link to confirm? It should just confirm them without
    another button text and w/o text overwhelm. and b) it takes them back
    to a list of all my lists, which I hate, or at least would like to have
    the option of avoiding, if I am not intending to mix all my
    subscribers. I don't want them to have the option of joining other
    groups unless I intend to give it to them.

    3) I don't understand if you can attach PDFs where it says, i.e. to new
    subscribers, etc. When I attach one, it just inserts garble into the
    text box once the PDF file is uploaded. I can't tell if this is an
    error, or what, and if I can include additional text.

    Thanks, guys!
    Jonathan

    On Aug 16, 2004, at 3:01 AM, mailman-users-request at python.org wrote:

    At 10:04 PM +0200 2004-08-15, Ulisse wrote:

    At the moment i can insert, such as header and footer, in the
    messages
    sent via Mailman Mailing lists only pure text and links. Is it
    possible,
    for the administrator/moderator of the lists, to insert images, html
    code, banner, java feed or other complex code, such as header and
    footer, in every message sent via Mailman Mailing lists ???
    If you had bothered to follow the instructions at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>, you should have been able to find
    (without too much trouble) the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq03.037.htp>.
    If yes. If it is possible... What is the system ??? Have you some
    instructions ? A link ? Exist an rpm or a modification ???
    See above.
  • PeteBell at Aug 16, 2004 at 11:50 am

    On 16 Aug 2004, at 12:23, zzizzle at zzizzle.com wrote:

    If that's not the case, could someone please answer this question in a
    way people like me can understand? I am not a programmer, and I think
    a lot of these links are confusing to non-programmers.....
    Previous message from Brad:
    If you had bothered to follow the instructions........

    I have to say I agree with what zzizzle is hinting at. Although the
    mailman-users list is for users of all degrees of experience, I think
    that some of the answers given to new inexperienced users are quite
    rude and short-tempered - especially considering that many of us are
    not programmers and find Mailman a very complex subject. Often answers
    are NOT easy to find in the archives, especially when the questions are
    sometimes difficult to phrase!

    Thank you for listening. Sometimes the old "count to ten" principle
    wouldn't hurt.

    PeteBell, UK
  • Brad Knowles at Aug 16, 2004 at 12:27 pm

    At 12:50 PM +0100 2004-08-16, PeteBell wrote:

    I think
    that some of the answers given to new inexperienced users are quite
    rude and short-tempered - especially considering that many of us are
    not programmers and find Mailman a very complex subject.
    I'm not a programmer, either. If you want the list for
    programmers, that would be mailman-developers, not mailman-users.
    Often answers
    are NOT easy to find in the archives, especially when the questions
    are sometimes difficult to phrase!
    The problem is that many users are obviously just not reading the
    FAQ, or making any attempt to search the FAQ or the archives. Just
    giving them the answer encourages them to come back and use me (or
    someone else) as a FAQ search engine yet once again. They need to be
    given encouragement to go find the answers themselves.

    They need to be told that the answer is in the FAQ, and that if
    they had searched the FAQ, they would have found the answer, and been
    able to avoid bothering all the rest of us.

    Otherwise, there is no use for the FAQ or the archives, and we
    should just delete them because they are a waste of space.


    This is the classic "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a
    day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime". These
    people need to learn to fish.
    Thank you for listening. Sometimes the old "count to ten" principle
    wouldn't hurt.
    Counting to ten wouldn't help if the original poster doesn't
    bother to search the FAQ or the archives, and yet the answer is
    easily found there.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Brad Knowles at Aug 16, 2004 at 12:42 pm

    At 2:27 PM +0200 2004-08-16, Brad Knowles wrote:

    Thank you for listening. Sometimes the old "count to ten" principle
    wouldn't hurt.
    Counting to ten wouldn't help if the original poster doesn't bother
    to search the FAQ or the archives, and yet the answer is easily found
    there.
    I've been thinking about this a bit more. I can change the stock
    answer I give to the following:

    This is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question). Please search the
    FAQ Wizard and the archives of this mailing list in accordance
    with the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

    If you have done so and still not found the answer to your
    question(s), please let us know what your problem is and what
    you searched for, and we should be able to update the FAQ
    Wizard to suit.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Aug 16, 2004 at 2:07 pm
    "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:
    Brad> I've been thinking about this a bit more. I can
    Brad> change the stock answer I give to the following:

    This is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question). Please search the
    FAQ Wizard and the archives of this mailing list in accordance
    with the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

    If you have done so and still not found the answer to your
    question(s), please let us know what your problem is and what
    you searched for, and we should be able to update the FAQ
    Wizard to suit.

    I think this is genuinely rude. "I know the answer but I'm not going
    to tell you until you prove you've jumped through some hoops."

    I suggest that you merely change the phrase "if you had bothered to
    follow" to "if you had followed", or to "by following", in the current
    formula. The presumption that the person had not read the FAQ or the
    archives is valid with rather high probability, and the implication
    that they should learn to do so certainly is appropriate. It's
    abrupt, but the "polite" alternative is a personal admonition in
    private mail, a waste of time all around.

    The presumption that they should have known better is unwarranted,
    IMO, and is better avoided. In most cases newbie rudeness is due to
    simple ignorance of the mores.

    Many thanks for the wonderful service you are providing for the
    community!

    --
    Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
    University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
    Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
    ask what your business can "do for" free software.
  • Robert Echlin at Aug 16, 2004 at 2:47 pm
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen at xemacs.org>
    To: "Brad Knowles" <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
    Cc: <mailman-users at python.org>
    Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 10:07 AM
    Subject: How to respond to FAQs [was: [Mailman-Users] Banner and Complexcode
    ...]

    "Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:
    Brad> I've been thinking about this a bit more. I can
    Brad> change the stock answer I give to the following:

    This is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question). Please search the
    FAQ Wizard and the archives of this mailing list in accordance
    with the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

    If you have done so and still not found the answer to your
    question(s), please let us know what your problem is and what
    you searched for, and we should be able to update the FAQ
    Wizard to suit.

    I think this is genuinely rude. "I know the answer but I'm not going
    to tell you until you prove you've jumped through some hoops."

    I suggest that you merely change the phrase "if you had bothered to
    follow" to "if you had followed", or to "by following", in the current
    formula. The presumption that the person had not read the FAQ or the
    archives is valid with rather high probability, and the implication
    that they should learn to do so certainly is appropriate. It's
    abrupt, but the "polite" alternative is a personal admonition in
    private mail, a waste of time all around.

    The presumption that they should have known better is unwarranted,
    IMO, and is better avoided. In most cases newbie rudeness is due to
    simple ignorance of the mores.

    Many thanks for the wonderful service you are providing for the
    community!
    I like Stephen's suggestion. I think you should let them know where the
    answer is, and let them know that the FAQ Wizard is the place to look before
    posting to the list. They will automatically look at the other titles on the
    list, over time, once they know they exist. Obviously, in the rush to fix
    something that's broken, they won't have time to read the whole FAQ
    immediately.

    Stephen, I think what you call "Newbie rudeness" is NOT ignorance of the
    mores. It is simply not yet knowing the resources. After all, it is not even
    the official FAQ, it is not hosted on the same site as the MailMan project,
    it has an odd name. Certainly it was not on my radar before I joined the
    list. And I had no reason to read FAQ entry 1.22, or even notice that it
    existed. And no, I didn't notice the Wizard was on the same site as the
    list.

    Brad, yes, please fix your wording a bit, perhaps:

    "
    If you followed the instructions in the Mailman FAQ Wizard at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>,
    you should have fairly easily found the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.047.htp>
    which addresses this issue.
    "

    Also, Brad, your pointers to the right spot in the FAQ are extremely
    valuable, and even more so to people who are pushed backwards into being
    mail list sysadmins as part of another job, who often don't understand which
    specific term in the FAQ titles means the same thing as what they are trying
    to do.

    Robert
  • Stephen J. Turnbull at Aug 17, 2004 at 5:34 am
    "Robert" == Robert Echlin <rechlin at ca.stilo.com> writes:
    Robert> Stephen, I think what you call "Newbie rudeness" is NOT
    Robert> ignorance of the mores. It is simply not yet knowing the
    Robert> resources.

    If you like. But that implies ignorance of the mores, as I understand
    them. The FAQ and list archive impose reciprocal obligations: on the
    maintainers, to provide them, and on the users, to _find_ and use them.

    As for calling it "newbie rudeness", maybe there's a better term. But
    the psychological impact on a FAQmeister is similar to rudeness, and
    "sometimes" counting to ten, as PeteBell suggests, is not an answer.
    Pete's own post signled out a form post that often appears several
    times in a single day. "Counting to ten" several times a day, every
    day, is not "common courtesy", it's "job stress". And the FAQmeister,
    not being paid, is not eligible for workman's comp.<0.5 wink>


    --
    Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
    University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
    Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
    ask what your business can "do for" free software.
  • Brad Knowles at Aug 16, 2004 at 5:22 pm

    At 11:07 PM +0900 2004-08-16, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

    I suggest that you merely change the phrase "if you had bothered to
    follow" to "if you had followed", or to "by following", in the current
    formula.
    Will do.

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
  • Al Black at Aug 19, 2004 at 3:21 am
    Hey.

    You know this is a for "what its worth" observation. If you go back and
    look over the past couple of months FAQ questions, it looks like there
    are two classes of users, people who have shell access -- mailman
    administrators and listkeepers/moderators who don't. These different
    users have a different set of FAQ questions, and my guess is respond to
    the differently to Brad's steeped in RTFM culture responses. (2 cents
    but Brad's response doesn't seem all that rude.)

    Wonder if it would help if the FAQ was split along these lines or if the
    listkeepers list was working...

    al
  • Jeff Barger at Aug 16, 2004 at 3:34 pm

    On Aug 16, 2004, at 8:42 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
    At 2:27 PM +0200 2004-08-16, Brad Knowles wrote:

    Thank you for listening. Sometimes the old "count to ten" principle
    wouldn't hurt.
    Counting to ten wouldn't help if the original poster doesn't bother
    to search the FAQ or the archives, and yet the answer is easily found
    there.
    I've been thinking about this a bit more. I can change the stock
    answer I give to the following:

    This is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question). Please search the
    FAQ Wizard and the archives of this mailing list in accordance
    with the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?
    req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

    If you have done so and still not found the answer to your
    question(s), please let us know what your problem is and what
    you searched for, and we should be able to update the FAQ
    Wizard to suit.
    FWIW, I liked it better before. Short, direct, to the point.


    -Jeff
  • John W. Baxter at Aug 16, 2004 at 5:17 pm

    On 8/16/2004 5:42, "Brad Knowles" wrote:

    I've been thinking about this a bit more. I can change the stock
    answer I give to the following:

    This is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Question). Please search the
    FAQ Wizard and the archives of this mailing list in accordance
    with the FAQ entry at
    <http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

    If you have done so and still not found the answer to your
    question(s), please let us know what your problem is and what
    you searched for, and we should be able to update the FAQ
    Wizard to suit.

    There's another case, besides answer not found: the answer was found in the
    FAQ but not understood. That should probably be accounted for in the final
    paragraph of your response.

    --John
  • Brad Knowles at Aug 16, 2004 at 12:22 pm

    At 4:23 AM -0700 2004-08-16, zzizzle at zzizzle.com wrote:

    For instance:
    1) Can you add an html header to the emails? I still don't get it.
    I read the links you provided, and their sub-links.
    You can add a header or footer, but they cannot include HTML.
    Not all messages posted to the list would necessarily be in HTML, so
    blindly adding HTML would not make sense. Moreover, due to the way
    HTML is handled differently by different programs, it would be
    impossible to add a single piece of HTML that would be seen the same
    way by everyone.


    When you start adding fancy features like HTML and MIME, it
    becomes impossible to add *anything* of any sort to the message which
    doesn't risk looking different to some users, or even being
    completely unreadable to them.

    This is why Mailman supports converting HTML and MIME to plain
    text, but not the other way around.
    2) Is there a way so people subscribing don't go back into that archaic
    interface - when it asks them to accept or decline the list it's flat
    out confusing - text overwhelm - my user base is consumers and not
    programmers.
    Nope. Not unless you want to build something better.
    Why should a) they have too choose or deny when they are clicking on
    a link to confirm?
    Because sometimes users click on things and didn't mean to?

    Haven't you ever accidentally selected the "shutdown" item on
    your menu, and then been very glad when the machine asked you if this
    is what you really wanted to do?
    It should just confirm them without another button
    text and w/o text overwhelm. and b) it takes them back to a list of all
    my lists, which I hate, or at least would like to have the option of
    avoiding, if I am not intending to mix all my subscribers. I don't
    want them to have the option of joining other groups unless I intend
    to give it to them.
    Mailman is not designed to hide everything else on the machine
    from your users, unless you want to make all those other lists
    completely hidden from everyone. There is a limit to how much
    stupidity that Mailman can protect the users from doing to themselves.

    Now, if you wanted to contribute code back to the project to do
    this sort of thing, I'm sure that Barry would be glad to accept
    whatever patches you might have, and there might be some hope that
    they'd be included in some future version.
    3) I don't understand if you can attach PDFs where it says, i.e. to
    new subscribers, etc. When I attach one, it just inserts garble into
    the text box once the PDF file is uploaded. I can't tell if this is
    an error, or what, and if I can include additional text.
    I don't understand what you're asking. Can you be more clear?

    --
    Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
    temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
    Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

    SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

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