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Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 13:27
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You can respond by visiting:
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
including the initial issue submission, for this request,
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Category: (un)subscribing
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Private: No
Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.

Initial Comment:
Hi,

At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison.

The problem is that the Question

"Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja"

doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list."

I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message


"Receive digests? No Yes"
(in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja")

to

"Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest"
(in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung")


Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting:
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

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  • SourceForge.net at Jun 21, 2008 at 2:55 pm
    Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 04:27
    Message generated for change (Comment added) made by msapiro
    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

    Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
    including the initial issue submission, for this request,
    not just the latest update.
    Category: (un)subscribing
    Group: None
    Status: Open
    Resolution: None
    Priority: 5
    Private: No
    Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
    Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.

    Initial Comment:
    Hi,

    At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison.

    The problem is that the Question

    "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja"

    doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list."

    I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message


    "Receive digests? No Yes"
    (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja")

    to

    "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest"
    (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung")


    Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 07:55

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO

    Thanks for your input.

    There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains
    to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1).

    The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive
    digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the
    English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would
    require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?", "Regular" and "Digest".

    It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34
    other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't
    change the English at this point.

    Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive
    digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German
    translation of "Receive digests?"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3
  • SourceForge.net at Jun 21, 2008 at 4:18 pm
    Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 13:27
    Message generated for change (Comment added) made by keinstein
    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

    Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
    including the initial issue submission, for this request,
    not just the latest update.
    Category: (un)subscribing
    Group: None
    Status: Open
    Resolution: None
    Priority: 5
    Private: No
    Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
    Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.

    Initial Comment:
    Hi,

    At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison.

    The problem is that the Question

    "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja"

    doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list."

    I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message


    "Receive digests? No Yes"
    (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja")

    to

    "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest"
    (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung")


    Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Date: 2008-06-21 18:18

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_idƒ1067
    Originator: YES

    The problem is: Even the English translation leaves too much room for
    misinterpretations. The "exclusive or" is not expressed. In fact it can be
    interpreted as "Recieve digests, too".

    So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end
    user needs another solution. There should be some consolidation, anyhow. At
    the moment even in the english translation the same feature is described at
    different locations in at least three different ways. This makes the
    communication between the everage user and administrators problematic. Most
    end users don't know about digest modes (or any other feature). So if the
    admin uses term A and the end user reads term B he won't be able to combine
    them, regardless the language.

    The best way would be to use the same terms for all the interfaces (user,
    admin defaults, registration). Unfortunately the user configuration pages
    are stored as a monolithic HTML page in the .po file. Maybe it is possible
    to store the strings seperately? Or field wise and generate the appropriate
    pages according to the settings, if either the admin changes them (if the
    page was not modified manually) or on explicit request?

    What about the following solution: Consolidate the messages in the
    development branch, breaking the languages. This must be possible in any
    software project.

    In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and
    use the old translations in any language. Some of them are already more
    descriptive. This should be possible using a simple sed script. The
    language maintainers should be informed about that and can decide if they
    have already a good translation or if they want to change anything.

    Two examples (as far as I can read them) with English and German
    translation:

    Polish: Grupowa listy w paczki?
    English: Group messages in digests?
    German: Post in Sammelnachrichten gruppieren?

    Czech: Dostvat pspvky jako digest?
    English: Deliver messages as digests?
    German: Post als Sammelnachrichten zustellen?

    Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular"
    and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'd prefer the latter two as they
    provide some synonymic redundance, which makes it easier to understand the
    question in the right way.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 16:55

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO

    Thanks for your input.

    There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains
    to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1).

    The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive
    digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the
    English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would
    require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?", "Regular" and "Digest".

    It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34
    other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't
    change the English at this point.

    Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive
    digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German
    translation of "Receive digests?"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3
  • SourceForge.net at Jun 21, 2008 at 5:01 pm
    Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 04:27
    Message generated for change (Comment added) made by msapiro
    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

    Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
    including the initial issue submission, for this request,
    not just the latest update.
    Category: (un)subscribing
    Group: None
    Status: Open
    Resolution: None
    Priority: 5
    Private: No
    Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
    Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.

    Initial Comment:
    Hi,

    At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison.

    The problem is that the Question

    "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja"

    doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list."

    I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message


    "Receive digests? No Yes"
    (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja")

    to

    "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest"
    (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung")


    Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 10:01

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO
    So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end
    user needs another solution.
    It is the answer of a technician. I tried to explain the technical
    considerations which I feel prohibit me from making this change on the 2.1
    branch. If you want to discuss consistency, semantics and usability of the
    web interface in future releases, this bug report is not the appropriate
    place. The appropriate place is the mailman-developers at python.org list
    <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. There is an
    existing thread at
    <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020256.html>.
    There is also the wiki page at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE>.
    In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and
    use the old translations in any language.
    It doesn't work that way. The English text is the key used to look up the
    translated text in the target language's message catalog. Change one
    character in the English text, and the message will no longer be
    translated.
    Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular"
    and "Digest" are also valid answers.
    I'm sure that's true in many of the translations, but I can't guarantee
    that it's true in all 35 translations.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Date: 2008-06-21 09:18

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_idƒ1067
    Originator: YES

    The problem is: Even the English translation leaves too much room for
    misinterpretations. The "exclusive or" is not expressed. In fact it can be
    interpreted as "Recieve digests, too".

    So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end
    user needs another solution. There should be some consolidation, anyhow. At
    the moment even in the english translation the same feature is described at
    different locations in at least three different ways. This makes the
    communication between the everage user and administrators problematic. Most
    end users don't know about digest modes (or any other feature). So if the
    admin uses term A and the end user reads term B he won't be able to combine
    them, regardless the language.

    The best way would be to use the same terms for all the interfaces (user,
    admin defaults, registration). Unfortunately the user configuration pages
    are stored as a monolithic HTML page in the .po file. Maybe it is possible
    to store the strings seperately? Or field wise and generate the appropriate
    pages according to the settings, if either the admin changes them (if the
    page was not modified manually) or on explicit request?

    What about the following solution: Consolidate the messages in the
    development branch, breaking the languages. This must be possible in any
    software project.

    In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and
    use the old translations in any language. Some of them are already more
    descriptive. This should be possible using a simple sed script. The
    language maintainers should be informed about that and can decide if they
    have already a good translation or if they want to change anything.

    Two examples (as far as I can read them) with English and German
    translation:

    Polish: Grupowa listy w paczki?
    English: Group messages in digests?
    German: Post in Sammelnachrichten gruppieren?

    Czech: Dostvat pspvky jako digest?
    English: Deliver messages as digests?
    German: Post als Sammelnachrichten zustellen?

    Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular"
    and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'd prefer the latter two as they
    provide some synonymic redundance, which makes it easier to understand the
    question in the right way.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 07:55

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO

    Thanks for your input.

    There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains
    to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1).

    The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive
    digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the
    English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would
    require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?", "Regular" and "Digest".

    It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34
    other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't
    change the English at this point.

    Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive
    digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German
    translation of "Receive digests?"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3
  • SourceForge.net at Jun 27, 2008 at 2:45 pm
    Bugs item #1999387, was opened at 2008-06-21 13:27
    Message generated for change (Comment added) made by keinstein
    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

    Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread,
    including the initial issue submission, for this request,
    not just the latest update.
    Category: (un)subscribing
    Group: None
    Status: Open
    Resolution: None
    Priority: 5
    Private: No
    Submitted By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
    Summary: Misleading question in Subscribe WWW form.

    Initial Comment:
    Hi,

    At least the German translation is misleading on the subscription confirmation page of Mailman 2.1.5 as I have seen the same should be true in current trunk revison.

    The problem is that the Question

    "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja"

    doesn't contain any information, that this setting is the delivery mode. It could be interpreted as "Yes, I really want to recieve emails from the list."

    I think the text of the default is much better to understand and would less likely loose so much information in any translation. So I suggest to change the message


    "Receive digests? No Yes"
    (in German: "Nachrichtensammlungen abonnieren? Nein Ja")

    to

    "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest"
    (in German "Welcher Auslieferungsmodus wird gewnscht? Normal Nachrichtensammlung")


    Btw.: The term "Nachrichtensammlung" just tells that it's a collection of messages, but nothing that it is deliverend as one Email containing the collection. I'd prefer to emphasize that its one email containing a collection, in German: "Sammelnachricht". That this collection will be a collection of messages shuld be easy to understand, since we are in a context of mailing lists.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Date: 2008-06-27 16:45

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_idƒ1067
    Originator: YES

    Thanks for the hint to the UI discussion. I don't want to join a general
    discussion, I'm just an mailing list administrator arguing for his end
    users. As I'm not the server admin I can't provide much help in the
    development. But as this message is seldom read and easyly overlooked by
    developers I'm reporting it here.
    It doesn't work that way. The English text is the key used to look up the
    translated text in the target language's message catalog. Change one
    character in the English text, and the message will no longer be
    translated.
    This is simply not true. Try something like

    for d in trasnslation_dir/*/LC_MESSAGES/mailman.po ; do sed -i.old -e
    's,"Receive digests?","Deliver messages as digests?",' $d ; done

    on any machine where sed is GNU sed.

    And make the same change in the program file.

    If you are afraid of the yes/no issue, leave it as it is.

    If I'd have installed mailman on one of my computers I'd send you a patch,
    but I simply can't test it.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 19:01

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO
    So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end
    user needs another solution.
    It is the answer of a technician. I tried to explain the technical
    considerations which I feel prohibit me from making this change on the 2.1
    branch. If you want to discuss consistency, semantics and usability of the
    web interface in future releases, this bug report is not the appropriate
    place. The appropriate place is the mailman-developers at python.org list
    <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers>. There is an
    existing thread at
    <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-June/020256.html>.
    There is also the wiki page at <http://wiki.list.org/x/RoBE>.
    In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and
    use the old translations in any language.
    It doesn't work that way. The English text is the key used to look up the
    translated text in the target language's message catalog. Change one
    character in the English text, and the message will no longer be
    translated.
    Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular"
    and "Digest" are also valid answers.
    I'm sure that's true in many of the translations, but I can't guarantee
    that it's true in all 35 translations.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Tobias Schlemmer (keinstein)
    Date: 2008-06-21 18:18

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_idƒ1067
    Originator: YES

    The problem is: Even the English translation leaves too much room for
    misinterpretations. The "exclusive or" is not expressed. In fact it can be
    interpreted as "Recieve digests, too".

    So your answer sounds to me as the answer of a technician. But the end
    user needs another solution. There should be some consolidation, anyhow. At
    the moment even in the english translation the same feature is described at
    different locations in at least three different ways. This makes the
    communication between the everage user and administrators problematic. Most
    end users don't know about digest modes (or any other feature). So if the
    admin uses term A and the end user reads term B he won't be able to combine
    them, regardless the language.

    The best way would be to use the same terms for all the interfaces (user,
    admin defaults, registration). Unfortunately the user configuration pages
    are stored as a monolithic HTML page in the .po file. Maybe it is possible
    to store the strings seperately? Or field wise and generate the appropriate
    pages according to the settings, if either the admin changes them (if the
    page was not modified manually) or on explicit request?

    What about the following solution: Consolidate the messages in the
    development branch, breaking the languages. This must be possible in any
    software project.

    In the stable branch, just change the english text to be more explicit and
    use the old translations in any language. Some of them are already more
    descriptive. This should be possible using a simple sed script. The
    language maintainers should be informed about that and can decide if they
    have already a good translation or if they want to change anything.

    Two examples (as far as I can read them) with English and German
    translation:

    Polish: Grupowa listy w paczki?
    English: Group messages in digests?
    German: Post in Sammelnachrichten gruppieren?

    Czech: Dostvat pspvky jako digest?
    English: Deliver messages as digests?
    German: Post als Sammelnachrichten zustellen?

    Both are formulated as yes/no questions, but the "or" answers "Regular"
    and "Digest" are also valid answers. I'd prefer the latter two as they
    provide some synonymic redundance, which makes it easier to understand the
    question in the right way.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comment By: Mark Sapiro (msapiro)
    Date: 2008-06-21 16:55

    Message:
    Logged In: YES
    user_id23998
    Originator: NO

    Thanks for your input.

    There are a couple of problems for your suggestion at least as it pertains
    to the 2.1.x branch (the translation is the same in 2.1.11rc1).

    The text "Receive digests? No Yes" is actually three strings - "Receive
    digests?", "No" and "Yes" which are translated separately. Changing the
    English to "Which delivery mode shall be used? Regular Digest" would
    require translation of the three strings "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?", "Regular" and "Digest".

    It happens that "Regular" and "Digest" are already translated (German "Normal" and "Nachrichtensammlung"), but "Which delivery mode shall be
    used?" or anything similar is not. Thus if the English were changed 34
    other translations (not counting German) would be broken. Thus, I won't
    change the English at this point.

    Given that, if you can suggest a better German translation of "Receive
    digests?" that would be answered "Nein" or "Ja", I will update the German
    translation of "Receive digests?"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    You can respond by visiting:
    https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?funcÞtail&atid0103&aid99387&group_id3

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postedJun 21, '08 at 11:27a
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