FAQ
Greetings Guys

As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to
marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have
read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few
remarks IMHO:

1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as
social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the
popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links,
somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that
offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in
the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if
pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???

3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.

4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
(guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.

5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a
decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.

6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around
the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their
software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a
sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.

7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative
commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.
Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not
the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These
must speak to TCO and ROI over time.

8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg.
After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so
specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about
pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!

I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to
influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.

Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at
this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like
to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.

Michael

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  • Elein at May 18, 2006 at 8:51 pm

    On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote:
    Greetings Guys

    As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to
    marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have
    read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few
    remarks IMHO:

    1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as
    social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the
    popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.
    Note that the push for postgresql at any given site is likely to be pushed
    up from the technical staff. Find us some marketing pros who understand
    the postgresql project and we'll let them have at it.
    2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql. Give them free links,
    somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that
    offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in
    the past. Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if
    pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???
    Links are free. Support for PostgreSQL is free via the mailing lists
    and IRC. This free support is better than most call centers.
    3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
    accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
    Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
    takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
    A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
    professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.
    This is already happening on the postgresql.org page and in the
    PostgreSQL Weekly News.
    4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
    OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
    like Drupal. Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money
    (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in
    postgresql, even if forks were necessary? How many others DON'T
    contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of
    promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year
    after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
    You can already do this. Kick in money for a developer or consultant
    and the program in question can be converted.
    5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql. Provide a
    decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.
    Ahh, Stonebraker's 4x4 matrix.
    6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around
    the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their
    software on. A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a
    sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.
    This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.
    7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative
    commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.
    Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not
    the programmers who work for them that do what they are told. These
    must speak to TCO and ROI over time.
    Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have. People will be happy
    to use them.
    8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg.
    After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so
    specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about
    pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!
    I actually agree with this.
    I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to
    influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.

    Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at
    this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like
    to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.

    Michael
    Overall, I suggest you come to understand more about how open source
    projects, and postgresql, specifically work. Discuss with others
    *specific* items and how they can be implemented. Action always speaks
    more loudly than words. For the most part Josh Berkus has been leading
    the marketing effort. It would behoove you to discuss how you can help
    him in that effort.

    Carry on!

    Elein
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com

    office: (510)655-2584 Yahoo: AElein
    cell: (510)543-6079 AIM: varlenallc
    fax: (510)217-7008 Skype: varlenallc

    PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.
  • Greg Stark at May 19, 2006 at 5:28 am

    Michael Dean writes:

    Greetings Guys

    As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I
    think a refreshed course for pg is needed! So far I have read all 5000 or so
    of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO:

    1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social
    bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of
    postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.
    And this is a problem why? You seem to have mistaken this as some sort of
    commercial project that needs to return a profit or some sort of evangelical
    movement. It is neither. The contributors get the benefit of a good database
    which for whatever varied reasons satisfies their needs.
    8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath. It serves them, not pg. After all,
    mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically,
    vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to
    the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!
    I do agree with this point (though not the rationale).

    Bashing mysql (or Oracle) doesn't really accomplish much to improve Postgres
    or help Postgres users. There is some room for "let's avoid the mistakes
    others have made" or "learn from what others have done well", but there's an
    awful lot of contentless "mysql sucks" threads too. Personally I have "mysql"
    killfiled in these lists.

    --
    greg
  • Josh Berkus at May 19, 2006 at 5:18 pm
    Michael,

    Howdy, glad to see you came back.
    1. We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as
    social bugs. Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the
    popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.
    Not really in line with PostgreSQL's "personality". This could work for
    OpenOffice, but not here. PG is a very engineering-central project and there
    aren't many people who want to change that.

    Your other comments have been mostly answered, but:
    3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to
    accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.
    Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it
    takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.
    A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very
    professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.

    4. Stop being too cheap. Money Talks! Offer to PAY premiums to major
    OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough. Like Compierre,
    like Drupal.
    Actually, what projects who don't have a bias against PostgreSQL mostly need
    is developer time to help them with code. Drupal already supports Postgres;
    they need DBAs to help them be faster/better on Postgres. They are in the
    same boat with lots of other projects, so much so that there is more demand
    than there are PG volunteers.

    If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with
    someone.

    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
    doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
    That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.

    I do think that we could use a list of what other mature OSS projects support
    PostgreSQL reasonably well already. This is pretty much a data collection
    effort; are you volunteering for it? We could use it.

    --
    Josh Berkus
    Aglio Database Solutions
    San Francisco
  • Joshua D. Drake at May 19, 2006 at 6:22 pm

    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
    doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
    That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.
    Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?

    J



    --

    === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
    Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
    Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
    http://www.commandprompt.com/
  • Robert Treat at May 19, 2006 at 7:14 pm

    On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
    example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
    too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
    $50.
    Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
    It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
    database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
    some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
    you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?

    --
    Robert Treat
    Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
  • Joshua D. Drake at May 19, 2006 at 7:59 pm

    Robert Treat wrote:
    On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
    example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
    too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
    $50.
    Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
    It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
    database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
    some third party software and download it and install it in order to work...
    you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?
    Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or
    ODBCng with OO.

    Joshua D. Drake

    >


    --

    === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
    Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
    Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
    http://www.commandprompt.com/
  • Alvaro Herrera at May 19, 2006 at 8:14 pm

    Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Robert Treat wrote:
    On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for
    example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
    too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
    $50.
    Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
    It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs. Consider this; if
    database M works out of the box... but database P requires you to go find
    some third party software and download it and install it in order to
    work... you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user
    adoption?
    Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or
    ODBCng with OO.
    The ODBC interface is less powerful for OOo than their own SDBC
    interface AFAIK (which is why they developed it). So while it would be
    good to have an ODBC driver in there, the SDBC driver will also continue
    to be developed.

    --
    Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
    The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
  • Tom Lane at May 19, 2006 at 6:23 pm

    Josh Berkus writes:
    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
    doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
    That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.
    Does anyone have a handle on what the problems are? Is it something
    that could reasonably be fixed by a Postgres person, or is the real
    problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu?
    If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with?

    regards, tom lane
  • Matthew T. O'Connor at May 19, 2006 at 8:27 pm

    Tom Lane wrote:
    Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
    Other projects need even more intensive coding help. OpenOffice, for example,
    doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.
    That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.
    +1 (or +10 if that's not to piggy ;-)
  • Josh Berkus at May 20, 2006 at 7:04 pm
    Tom,
    or is the real
    problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu?
    If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with?
    OO-Fu, mostly. I've already posted to the DBA project on OOo.

    --
    Josh Berkus
    Aglio Database Solutions
    San Francisco

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