Hello all,

I have seen this presentation for new Novell Netware 6.5 version
released about two weeks or so.

http://www.novell.com/products/netware/netware65overview_popup.html

If you check 'Open Source' point, PostgreSQL text and PostgreSQL logo
are showed on the run.

I would be very happy if we could run PostgreSQL on Novell Netware
environment instead of Oracle or MySQL (default database on this
novell OS version) in a near future.

Somebody know if the changes to run PostgreSQL on Win32 platform will
be provide a easiest port for Novell Netware servers ?

Thanks a lot.

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  • Andreas Pflug at Sep 14, 2003 at 8:53 pm

    Terry Yapt wrote:
    Hello all,

    I have seen this presentation for new Novell Netware 6.5 version
    released about two weeks or so.

    http://www.novell.com/products/netware/netware65overview_popup.html

    If you check 'Open Source' point, PostgreSQL text and PostgreSQL logo
    are showed on the run.

    I would be very happy if we could run PostgreSQL on Novell Netware
    environment instead of Oracle or MySQL (default database on this
    novell OS version) in a near future.

    Somebody know if the changes to run PostgreSQL on Win32 platform will
    be provide a easiest port for Novell Netware servers ?
    It's been quite a while ago that I did NetWare programming (3.11 NLM,
    communication protocol for a dbms), and that I had some contact with
    Netware (4.1), but if Novell didn't change the architecture completely
    (I doubt that) the native win32 port won't be of any help for
    implementing PostgreSQL on NetWare. It's very different from Windows and
    *ix, so it would be a complete third implementation of basic service
    interfacing.

    Regards,
    Andreas
  • Alvaro Herrera at Sep 14, 2003 at 9:25 pm

    On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 10:52:58PM +0200, Andreas Pflug wrote:
    Terry Yapt wrote:
    I have seen this presentation for new Novell Netware 6.5 version
    released about two weeks or so.

    http://www.novell.com/products/netware/netware65overview_popup.html

    If you check 'Open Source' point, PostgreSQL text and PostgreSQL logo
    are showed on the run.
    It's been quite a while ago that I did NetWare programming (3.11 NLM,
    communication protocol for a dbms), and that I had some contact with
    Netware (4.1), but if Novell didn't change the architecture completely
    (I doubt that) the native win32 port won't be of any help for
    implementing PostgreSQL on NetWare. It's very different from Windows and
    *ix, so it would be a complete third implementation of basic service
    interfacing.
    Some time ago there was a guy from Novell posting on hackers about the
    porting of PostgreSQL to Netware. He sounded like most of the job was
    already done, but he wanted to have some patches accepted to be able to
    build with a toolchain different from GNU make and friends (because it
    was one or two orders of magnitude faster). He left some time later
    because of the null support he received for that, it seems.

    Some time after that, Novell announced that MySQL would be their default
    database system ...

    --
    Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
    Y una voz del caos me hablo y me dijo
    "Sonrie y se feliz, podria ser peor".
    Y sonrei. Y fui feliz.
    Y fue peor.
  • Tom Lane at Sep 14, 2003 at 10:55 pm

    Alvaro Herrera writes:
    Some time ago there was a guy from Novell posting on hackers about the
    porting of PostgreSQL to Netware. He sounded like most of the job was
    already done, but he wanted to have some patches accepted to be able to
    build with a toolchain different from GNU make and friends (because it
    was one or two orders of magnitude faster). He left some time later
    because of the null support he received for that, it seems.
    What is this, a troll? We gave that project quite a lot of support.
    My recollection is that we lost interest somewhere around here:
    http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2002-08/msg00278.php
    when it became clear that Netware couldn't or wouldn't try to arrange
    their code to keep the amount of platform-specific stuff reasonable.
    The patch as they were proposing it would have been completely
    unmaintainable --- certainly so for the community, probably for them
    too.

    regards, tom lane
  • Bruce Momjian at Sep 15, 2003 at 2:10 am

    Tom Lane wrote:
    Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl> writes:
    Some time ago there was a guy from Novell posting on hackers about the
    porting of PostgreSQL to Netware. He sounded like most of the job was
    already done, but he wanted to have some patches accepted to be able to
    build with a toolchain different from GNU make and friends (because it
    was one or two orders of magnitude faster). He left some time later
    because of the null support he received for that, it seems.
    What is this, a troll? We gave that project quite a lot of support.
    My recollection is that we lost interest somewhere around here:
    http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2002-08/msg00278.php
    when it became clear that Netware couldn't or wouldn't try to arrange
    their code to keep the amount of platform-specific stuff reasonable.
    The patch as they were proposing it would have been completely
    unmaintainable --- certainly so for the community, probably for them
    too.
    Last I remember they were going to port gmake to Novell and use that for
    the port,but we never heard back from them.

    --
    Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
    pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
    + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
    + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
  • Eduardo D Piovesam at Oct 17, 2003 at 6:13 pm
    Hi,
    It's been quite a while ago that I did NetWare programming (3.11 NLM,
    communication protocol for a dbms), and that I had some contact with
    Netware (4.1), but if Novell didn't change the architecture completely
    (I doubt that) the native win32 port won't be of any help for
    They've done the job. Forget all about 3.x / 4.x and even 5.x. No more CLib,
    you have now LibC which is a POSIX like API.

    AFAIK, they're finishing some usefull APIs, which'll make the port much more
    "easy". The "only difference" will be the "threaded model" instead of
    process based...

    NW6.x already have Apache, bash, gcc, mysql, openssh, vnc, etc... thanks to
    this "new architecture".

    You can get the 7.2.4 on http://forge.novell.com

    Eduardo
  • Andrew Dunstan at Oct 18, 2003 at 5:18 pm
    "Eduardo D Piovesam" <eduardo@autofax.com.br> wrote in message news:bmp9p9$2fjc$1@news.hub.org...
    Hi,
    It's been quite a while ago that I did NetWare programming (3.11 NLM,
    communication protocol for a dbms), and that I had some contact with
    Netware (4.1), but if Novell didn't change the architecture completely
    (I doubt that) the native win32 port won't be of any help for
    They've done the job. Forget all about 3.x / 4.x and even 5.x. No more CLib,
    you have now LibC which is a POSIX like API.

    AFAIK, they're finishing some usefull APIs, which'll make the port much more
    "easy". The "only difference" will be the "threaded model" instead of
    process based...

    NW6.x already have Apache, bash, gcc, mysql, openssh, vnc, etc... thanks to
    this "new architecture".

    You can get the 7.2.4 on http://forge.novell.com
    Why 7.2.4 I wonder? And I don't see anything there in the CVS repository. I know they are not obliged to show us the source code, but doing so would be nice (especially to see the threading part).

    cheers

    andrew
  • Terry Yapt at Oct 19, 2003 at 7:44 pm
    Why 7.2.4 I wonder? And I don't see anything there in the CVS repository. I know they are not obliged to show us the source code, but doing so would be nice (especially to see the threading part).
    Hi Andrew,

    here you have the source code:

    http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfmod/project/showfiles.php?group_id=1132&release_id=434

    Greetings..
  • Eduardo D Piovesam at Oct 20, 2003 at 12:43 pm
    They stopped at 7.2.4 because "they're finishing some usefull APIs, which'll make the port much more
    "easy"."

    When this part is done, a new port will be made with 7.4. With much less "NetWare specific code" and maybe, it'll be "accepted" by the PostgreSQL community.

    Regards,
    Eduardo
  • Hannu Krosing at Oct 24, 2003 at 7:30 pm

    Eduardo D Piovesam kirjutas E, 20.10.2003 kell 16:35:
    They stopped at 7.2.4 because "they're finishing some usefull APIs,
    which'll make the port much more "easy"."
    Will this involve using a Linux kernel ;)
    When this part is done, a new port will be made with 7.4. With much
    less "NetWare specific code" and maybe, it'll be "accepted" by the
    PostgreSQL community.
    Sure!

    ------------
    Hannu
  • Eduardo D Piovesam at Oct 27, 2003 at 7:15 pm

    They stopped at 7.2.4 because "they're finishing some usefull APIs,
    which'll make the port much more "easy"."
    Will this involve using a Linux kernel ;)
    :) No, a NW kernel with a POSIX library. This'll be great, because you'll
    can run powerfull opensource software with an enterprise-class NOS. Another
    option...

    Clustering support (32 x 32), stable & consistent file system (Novell's
    Storage System, forget the old Tradition File System (very mature & stable,
    but it doesn't fit the current storage necessity)), security & stability
    (our servers is counting 700+ days).

    It's a valuable addition to the Novell community, but it's also an good
    addition to the PostgreSQL community, but of course, when everything is 100%
    done. ;)

    Regards,
    Eduardo
  • Randolf Richardson at Nov 27, 2003 at 5:52 am

    They stopped at 7.2.4 because "they're finishing some usefull APIs,
    which'll make the port much more "easy"."
    Will this involve using a Linux kernel ;)
    :) No, a NW kernel with a POSIX library. This'll be great, because
    :you'll can run powerfull opensource software with an enterprise-class
    NOS. Another option...
    Well, the "pthreads" seem to be working just fine.

    For all my work that most people would do in C/C++, I do in assembler,
    and the POSIX support in NetWare now is providing some very nice APIs in
    NetWare 6.0 and 6.5 that simply weren't available on NetWare 4.x and
    earlier (NetWare 5.x has some of this, and Novell has been working hard to
    move in this direction).
    Clustering support (32 x 32), stable & consistent file system (Novell's
    Storage System, forget the old Tradition File System (very mature &
    stable, but it doesn't fit the current storage necessity)), security &
    stability (our servers is counting 700+ days).
    I hosted over 500 internet sites (HTTP (Apache), DNS, SMTP/POP3, FTP,
    NNTP, Oracle, various Java services, PERL, etc.) on NetWare 5 across two
    different /24 address spaces, and the server (yes, all of this was done
    with a single Pentium III server with 512 MBs of RAM) was fast and reliable
    with minimal maintenance.

    The new file system (NSS) cuts down the boot time since volume mounts
    always complete in less than 1 second as opposed to the "Traditional File
    System" (TFS) which required approximately 5 to 10 minutes to mount.

    NSS is a journaling system, which I've not been able to break yet by
    simulating power outages during busy times. When the next release of
    PostgreSQL is ready for NetWare, I'm going to try to break it in this way
    as well (by making it very busy with many simultaneous write, index, and
    vacuum operations before "pulling the plug"). So far I've found that
    Oracle 8i on NetWare was quite good at handling this and the worst that
    ever happened (at least in my testing) was that there was a cut-off point
    where newly written records were lost.

    I'm not pleased with Oracle's decision to discontinue support for
    NetWare, and PostgreSQL fits that void very well (except for not having
    table spaces, but I can live with that), and so I anxiously await the new
    version of PostgreSQL so that I can proceed with some rather large web-
    based projects that have been in the planning and research stages for
    approximately 3 years now.

    Unfortunately I simply can't use MySQL because they don't have views,
    and there are some data integrity problems (e.g., numbers getting truncated
    silently instead of an error being returned, etc.).
    It's a valuable addition to the Novell community, but it's also an good
    addition to the PostgreSQL community, but of course, when everything is
    100% done. ;)
    I agree wholeheartedly that both the Novell and PostgreSQL user and
    developer communities will benefit greatly from this. From a marketing
    perspective, both organizations will also benefit by gaining additional
    exposure.

    --
    Randolf Richardson - rr@8x.ca
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

    Please do not eMail me directly when responding
    to my postings in the newsgroups.

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