Hey guys,

Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
discussion now :).

For more information please visit:

http://www.postgresqlcertification.org/

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company: Since 1997, http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

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  • Josh Berkus at Jan 30, 2008 at 10:18 pm
    Josh,
    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).
    Who else is in this? Have you talked to the Venezualan folks? SRA?

    As you know, I'm strongly in favor of a good, generally respected
    certification. Let's get all of the interested folks on one project.

    --Josh
  • Joshua D. Drake at Jan 30, 2008 at 10:21 pm
    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0800 Josh Berkus wrote:
    Current broadcast members are:

    Myself
    Magnus
    Robert
    Chander (need to get him on the website)

    Bruce has a pending invitation (which I didn't send yet)

    I have not spoken with SRA or the Venezualan folks but am more than
    happy to have them involved.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake
    - --
    The PostgreSQL Company: Since 1997, http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit
  • Josh Berkus at Jan 30, 2008 at 10:48 pm
    Josh,
    I have not spoken with SRA or the Venezualan folks but am more than
    happy to have them involved.
    OK, I'll get you some contact info.

    --Josh
  • Hans-Jürgen Schönig at Jan 31, 2008 at 7:48 am
    I suggest to explicitly invite the Russian folks too.
    Oleg showed strong interest in a global certification thing.

    we can contribute some material and so on if needed. it is currently
    in german but it should not be a big problem.

    many thanks,

    hans


    On Jan 30, 2008, at 11:22 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0800
    Josh Berkus wrote:

    Current broadcast members are:

    Myself
    Magnus
    Robert
    Chander (need to get him on the website)

    Bruce has a pending invitation (which I didn't send yet)

    I have not spoken with SRA or the Venezualan folks but am more than
    happy to have them involved.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake
    - --
    The PostgreSQL Company: Since 1997, http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/
    donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

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    www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at
  • Santiago Zarate at Feb 1, 2008 at 4:48 pm
    Well until now... i think i am the only venezuelan here.... i havent
    been able to locate Cesar Villanueva.... >.< anyone knows other
    venezuelans arround?

    Btw... i've joined the cert list aswell

    2008/1/31, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:17:43 -0800
    Josh Berkus wrote:

    Current broadcast members are:

    Myself
    Magnus
    Robert
    Chander (need to get him on the website)

    Bruce has a pending invitation (which I didn't send yet)

    I have not spoken with SRA or the Venezualan folks but am more than
    happy to have them involved.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake
    - --
    The PostgreSQL Company: Since 1997, http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

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  • Alvaro Herrera at Feb 1, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    Santiago Zarate wrote:
    Well until now... i think i am the only venezuelan here.... i havent
    been able to locate Cesar Villanueva.... >.< anyone knows other
    venezuelans arround?
    I think they are talking about Ricardo Strusberg. He was interested in
    setting up a Pg training/certification program.

    Regarding Cesar Villanueva, I bet you can reach him at
    ve@postgresql.org.

    --
    Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
    The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
  • Roberto Tortolero at Feb 1, 2008 at 9:03 pm
    Well i'm also want to be PostgreSQL Certificated, Zarate always said that he
    is the only one in Venezuela, but we are several people who want to have
    certified on PostgreSQL
    On Feb 1, 2008 4:19 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

    Santiago Zarate wrote:
    Well until now... i think i am the only venezuelan here.... i havent
    been able to locate Cesar Villanueva.... >.< anyone knows other
    venezuelans arround?
    I think they are talking about Ricardo Strusberg. He was interested in
    setting up a Pg training/certification program.

    Regarding Cesar Villanueva, I bet you can reach him at
    ve@postgresql.org.

    --
    Alvaro Herrera
    http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
    The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

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    http://archives.postgresql.org/
  • Santiago Zarate at Feb 1, 2008 at 11:36 pm
    Roberto, was talking about the pgsl-advocacy list...

    Anyway chech the mail about the PUG i sent you few months ago... if
    you dont have it mailme... ill froward it to you... the same for any
    other venezuelan interested in the PUG/list :p


    @alvaro done it few weeks ago... and got a mailbox error stuff...
    anyway wrote to him this evening again.. lets see
    2008/2/2, Roberto Tortolero <roberto.tortolero@gmail.com>:
    Well i'm also want to be PostgreSQL Certificated, Zarate always said that he
    is the only one in Venezuela, but we are several people who want to have
    certified on PostgreSQL

    On Feb 1, 2008 4:19 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:



    Santiago Zarate wrote:
    Well until now... i think i am the only venezuelan here.... i havent
    been able to locate Cesar Villanueva.... >.< anyone knows other
    venezuelans arround?
    I think they are talking about Ricardo Strusberg. He was interested in
    setting up a Pg training/certification program.

    Regarding Cesar Villanueva, I bet you can reach him at
    ve@postgresql.org.


    --
    Alvaro Herrera
    http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
    The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

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  • Dan Langille at Jan 31, 2008 at 1:03 am

    Josh Berkus wrote:
    Josh,
    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).
    Who else is in this? Have you talked to the Venezualan folks? SRA?

    As you know, I'm strongly in favor of a good, generally respected
    certification. Let's get all of the interested folks on one project.
    You may know that I'm part of the BSD Certification Group. Proper
    certification is not a trivial project. I joined up.

    --
    Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
    BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
    PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/
  • Robert Bernier at Jan 31, 2008 at 11:18 am

    On January 30, 2008 08:03:14 pm Dan Langille wrote:
    You may know that I'm part of the BSD Certification Group. Proper
    certification is not a trivial project. I joined up.
    Dan's right, the certification process is equal to the effort expended
    administrating the PostgreSQL community. Whomever becomes the lead on this
    must realize that this is potentially a full time job. As well, although SRA
    is the best example we have currently of PostgreSQL 'testing/certification'
    it is not the model that we should be looking at for an opensource
    implementation. You want to contact Dru for advice, otherwise it will take
    you two years just to get you up to speed (this is not an exaggeration) on
    the issues.

    Robert
  • Tatsuo Ishii at Jan 31, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    Josh,
    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).
    Who else is in this? Have you talked to the Venezualan folks? SRA?

    As you know, I'm strongly in favor of a good, generally respected
    certification. Let's get all of the interested folks on one project.
    Up to now SRA OSS, Inc. Japan's certification has more than 1,000
    examinees. I'm proud of this, but am not satisfied with this. From the
    beginning of the certification, I have a dream that someday the
    certification be managed by public entity, not by a private company
    like us. Yes, that's my goal. So if Josh and his folks are very
    serious about making a good certfication, I'm more than happy to help
    them.

    However running a certification programs (not just making examins) is
    not a trivial work. Moreover it costs a lot of money (over $40,000 per
    year in our case). Josh, how do you overcome those problems?
    --
    Tatsuo Ishii
    SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
  • Joshua D. Drake at Jan 31, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
    Josh,
    However running a certification programs (not just making examins) is
    not a trivial work. Moreover it costs a lot of money (over $40,000 per
    year in our case). Josh, how do you overcome those problems?
    As the resources become required I am sure that I can make sure they are
    provided.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake
  • Oleg Bartunov at Jan 30, 2008 at 11:41 pm
    Can you show us the goals of the PostgreSQL Certification ?
    I always voted for the united PostgreSQL Certification program
    (amin, developer) we could promote with the help of commercial companies.
    In my opinion, common certificate, valid in all countries will be much more
    useful than buttons. We have several good authors who can be sponsored to
    write certification courses with the help of developers.

    Oleg
    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Hey guys,

    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).

    For more information please visit:

    http://www.postgresqlcertification.org/

    Joshua D. Drake

    - --
    The PostgreSQL Company: Since 1997, http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

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    =Spdr
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    Regards,
    Oleg
    _____________________________________________________________
    Oleg Bartunov, Research Scientist, Head of AstroNet (www.astronet.ru),
    Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University, Russia
    Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
    phone: +007(495)939-16-83, +007(495)939-23-83
  • Jean-Paul Argudo at Feb 3, 2008 at 8:50 am
    Hi all,

    First of all, thanks to Josuah to start this usefull and long time
    waited project :-)

    Oleg Bartunov wrote :
    Can you show us the goals of the PostgreSQL Certification ?
    To me, there are two things Id like to be "PostgreSQL Certified":

    - individuals
    - companies

    Id really prefer my company be certified by the community rather than by
    a company, despite the full respect I have in SRA's engagement in
    PostgreSQL and that we all know their contributions.
    I always voted for the united PostgreSQL Certification program (amin,
    developer) we could promote with the help of commercial companies.
    Count on us (Dalibo) and us (PostgreSQLFr non-profit).
    In my opinion, common certificate, valid in all countries will be much more
    useful than buttons.
    Definitely. We discussed the topic at Prato. We were talking there about
    it could be a project inside PostgreSQL-Europe.

    I'd be more than happy if this could be a Worldwide project instead.
    We have several good authors who can be sponsored
    to write certification courses with the help of developers.
    Yes, I think so. Dalibo could contribute too, on its own. I know some of
    the non-profit that can contribute too.
    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Hey guys,

    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).

    For more information please visit:
    http://www.postgresqlcertification.org/
    Joshua D. Drake
    Thanks for such a good initiative, Josuah:

    «Your subscription request has been received..»: let's talk about this
    in the mailing-list :)

    Cheers,

    --
    Jean-Paul Argudo
    www.PostgreSQLFr.org
    www.Dalibo.com
  • Guido Barosio at Feb 3, 2008 at 3:02 pm
    Argentina presente ;-)

    Regards,
    gb.-
    On Feb 3, 2008 6:49 AM, Jean-Paul Argudo wrote:
    Hi all,

    First of all, thanks to Josuah to start this usefull and long time
    waited project :-)

    Oleg Bartunov wrote :
    Can you show us the goals of the PostgreSQL Certification ?
    To me, there are two things Id like to be "PostgreSQL Certified":

    - individuals
    - companies

    Id really prefer my company be certified by the community rather than by
    a company, despite the full respect I have in SRA's engagement in
    PostgreSQL and that we all know their contributions.
    I always voted for the united PostgreSQL Certification program (amin,
    developer) we could promote with the help of commercial companies.
    Count on us (Dalibo) and us (PostgreSQLFr non-profit).
    In my opinion, common certificate, valid in all countries will be much more
    useful than buttons.
    Definitely. We discussed the topic at Prato. We were talking there about
    it could be a project inside PostgreSQL-Europe.

    I'd be more than happy if this could be a Worldwide project instead.
    We have several good authors who can be sponsored
    to write certification courses with the help of developers.
    Yes, I think so. Dalibo could contribute too, on its own. I know some of
    the non-profit that can contribute too.
    On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    Hey guys,

    Myself and a small team of PostgreSQL contributors have started a new
    community project for PostgreSQL Certification. It is just launching
    but we wanted to get it out there so that people can join in on the
    discussion now :).

    For more information please visit:
    http://www.postgresqlcertification.org/
    Joshua D. Drake
    Thanks for such a good initiative, Josuah:

    «Your subscription request has been received..»: let's talk about this
    in the mailing-list :)

    Cheers,

    --
    Jean-Paul Argudo
    www.PostgreSQLFr.org
    www.Dalibo.com



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    --
    Guido Barosio
    -----------------------
    http://www.globant.com
    guido.barosio@globant.com
  • Josh Berkus at Feb 3, 2008 at 6:59 pm
    JPA,
    Id really prefer my company be certified by the community rather than by
    a company, despite the full respect I have in SRA's engagement in
    PostgreSQL and that we all know their contributions.
    What would it mean for a company to be certified?

    --Josh
  • Ron Mayer at Feb 3, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Josh Berkus wrote:
    Id really prefer my company be certified by the community rather than by
    a company, despite the full respect I have in SRA's engagement in
    PostgreSQL and that we all know their contributions.
    What would it mean for a company to be certified?
    I'd hope it'd mean that I can have some degree of confidence
    hiring that organization for Postgresql support. No?

    It seems to have very similar benefits as certifying individuals.

    Microsoft seems to have something like that for their
    partners in their "Database Management competency"
    https://partner.microsoft.com/global/40012911
  • Jean-Paul Argudo at Feb 4, 2008 at 12:14 am
    Hi all,
    Josh Berkus wrote:
    What would it mean for a company to be certified?
    I'd hope it'd mean that I can have some degree of confidence
    hiring that organization for Postgresql support. No?
    Thats my point. A "PostgreSQL Certified Company" is just about a
    brillant button on a company's web page, or a stamp on any commercial,
    "certifying" the company has knowledge in PostgreSQL and has prooved it
    has one.

    I think a company could be "Certified" when it hires a certain number of
    PostgreSQL "certified" individuals.

    All the point is determining how much...

    2 Certified DBAs on a 5 consultants company can be enough.

    But 2 certified DBAs in a company of 100? 1000?

    Yes, it'll be hard to define something right.
    It seems to have very similar benefits as certifying individuals.

    Microsoft seems to have something like that for their
    partners in their "Database Management competency"
    https://partner.microsoft.com/global/40012911
    Oh yes, they do. They aren't the only to do so.

    I was thinking also that only Certified PostgreSQL Training Companies
    could pretend to prepare trainees for PostgreSQL Certification.

    But I may go too far on this point...

    The things I'd like this reflection to reach, on the "company
    certification", are:

    - ensure a customer he's asking PostgreSQL support (services or other)
    to a company with a prooved knowledge of PostgreSQL, if that customer
    needs it, he should have it;

    - ensure an individual he will meet a good teacher in this company that
    may help him right to take and pass the PostgreSQL Certification;

    - the label "certified {individual|company}" shouldn't be *ONLY*
    buyable in any way... I mean, the quality of the company or the
    knowledge of the individual should be the most important thing to get
    the certification stamp...

    - many other things we could define!!?

    About certifying companies:

    -> Its *not* about marketing for us. But maybe a valuable marketing
    media for the companies.

    -> We *cannot* give that stamp to everyone giving an amount of money or
    even time to the PostgreSQL project (wich are exactly the same to me:
    time is money). It has to be really strict or it won't have any value.

    -> This last idea doesn't mean we cannot ask for money *at all* to have
    the companies certified. I think that certification could be *also* a
    good way to grab money from companies and have them giving money to the
    PG project via the way they want (SPI or local organizations).

    But I know many of you will think that we musn't mix certification with
    money at any time... I'm just telling you "heh, this could be a nice way
    to have money to the project", not that we *must* take it.

    My opinion is that if we only think about donations to "certify"
    companies, we will wait for them a long, long... long time.

    And sometimes, I'm a bit fed up of selling $5 mugs or $1 pins when I
    know I need $200 for a banner or that I like to give $150 to a guy going
    present PostgreSQL far from home, or even help guys at PG.De or PG.Uk :/

    I know you'll tell me I have to ask companies here to donate. We did,
    many times.

    They all tell the same: "What I have for the money?" I respond "well,
    you helps us a lot".... No need to say this is not what they wanna hear.

    (------------------------------------------------------------------

    About money: example: PostgreSQLFr 2007: see complete thing there, on
    the annual resume of the general assembly we did a few days ago:

    http://wiki.postgresqlfr.org/doku.php/ag_du_30_janvier_2008

    Precisely, the chapter about money:

    2007's PostgreSQLFr money:

    Money @bank, 1st jan 2007: +786 €

    Expenses : -1 998 €
    Gains : +1 665 €
    Result : - 333 €

    Money @bank, 1st jan 2008 : +453 €

    Do you think we could survive if every PostgreSQLFr guy ask us to pay
    their travel expenses?

    No need to say Dalibo paid the posters this year, and other things the
    last year, like Devrim's and Magnus' planes to come at SL 2007.

    I'd like other companies to help PostgreSQLFr non-profit too !

    ------------------------------------------------------------------)

    Just think about the marketing we will give to companies, and what will
    be the benefits for them. I think they'd pay for it, no doubt.

    -> We'll have to check companies' content about trainings!.. Without
    this, how we will know if the company trains the people right ?
    I know this will be really complicated to reach tough :/


    My 2 cents.



    PS:

    1/ I ripped pgsql-general from the list of CC, I think this is more
    about advocacy than general, and I'd like to avoid cross-postings in
    PostgreSQL "official" lists

    2/ I added Josuah's CERT list, as I think there may have some thread
    with the points I enhance in this e-mail

    3/ My e-mail will be

    Jean-Paul Argudo <jean-paul@postgresqlfr.org>

    Since this message, I ordered my e-mails accounts to have every
    PostgreSQL-related e-mails sent/from jean-paul@postgresqlfr.org instead
    of jean-paul@argudo.org, that will be used only for personal purpose
    since then.

    Please update my e-mail into your address books, thanks !

    --
    Jean-Paul Argudo
    www.PostgreSQLFr.org
    www.Dalibo.com
  • Greg Smith at Feb 4, 2008 at 1:32 am

    On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Jean-Paul Argudo wrote:

    I think a company could be "Certified" when it hires a certain number of
    PostgreSQL "certified" individuals.
    All the point is determining how much...
    If you just force the program to be open this issue largely resolves
    itself. Companies that want to advertise their certification should have
    to list their certified members. Leave it up to the buyer as to whether
    they have enough of them, why should the certification authority be
    needlessly complicated by worrying about this sort of thing?

    The logical leap from there is to not certify companies except indirectly
    via this mechanism, which solves the whole stack of logistics problems
    that would otherwise come from trying to figure out just what a company
    certification even means. Saying "you can list certification for a
    company only in the context of listing your certified workers" makes the
    issue go away.

    --
    * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
  • Josh Berkus at Feb 4, 2008 at 2:21 am
    JPA, Greg,
    The logical leap from there is to not certify companies except
    indirectly via this mechanism, which solves the whole stack of logistics
    problems that would otherwise come from trying to figure out just what a
    company certification even means. Saying "you can list certification
    for a company only in the context of listing your certified workers"
    makes the issue go away.
    I have to side with Greg here. However, I also think that I should join
    the certification mailing list and argue it out there.

    --Josh
  • Peter Eisentraut at Feb 4, 2008 at 3:12 am

    Greg Smith wrote:
    If you just force the program to be open this issue largely resolves
    itself.  Companies that want to advertise their certification should have
    to list their certified members.  Leave it up to the buyer as to whether
    they have enough of them, why should the certification authority be
    needlessly complicated by worrying about this sort of thing?
    Most companies don't want to make their employee list public.
  • Gregory Youngblood at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:06 am
    How about providing a mechanism people can use to confirm a person's
    certification. Make that part of being certified.

    The company could advertise having people certified for postgresql, and
    their customers could check and verify that the person they are working
    with is certified. Perhaps, make a requirement for companies advertising
    in that manner to provide a link/button/etc. someplace on their site
    that links back to the confirmation site for postgresql people.

    Of course, if the list of certified people is open, then it could be up
    to the certified person to list his/her company information, and then
    the certification confirmation site could provide a search function. The
    button/link on a "certified" company might link back with a prebuilt
    search query to list their people.



    On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 04:12 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

    Greg Smith wrote:
    If you just force the program to be open this issue largely resolves
    itself. Companies that want to advertise their certification should have
    to list their certified members. Leave it up to the buyer as to whether
    they have enough of them, why should the certification authority be
    needlessly complicated by worrying about this sort of thing?
    Most companies don't want to make their employee list public.
  • Joshua D. Drake at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:57 am

    On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:05:52 -0700 Gregory Youngblood wrote:

    How about providing a mechanism people can use to confirm a person's
    certification. Make that part of being certified.

    The company could advertise having people certified for postgresql,
    and their customers could check and verify that the person they are
    working with is certified. Perhaps, make a requirement for companies
    advertising in that manner to provide a link/button/etc. someplace on
    their site that links back to the confirmation site for postgresql
    people.
    I think this is reasonable.
    Of course, if the list of certified people is open, then it could be
    up to the certified person to list his/her company information, and
    then the certification confirmation site could provide a search
    function. The button/link on a "certified" company might link back
    with a prebuilt search query to list their people.
    Right.

    Joshua D. Drake
  • Hans-Jürgen Schönig at Feb 4, 2008 at 3:20 pm
    how can we determine which companies are certified from the beginning?
    i think it makes no sense to push redhat, for instance, through a
    certification process as they have tom and some others :).
    where do you draw the line here?

    would we have to certified? we have a couple of patches in. who would
    have to certify?

    many thanks,

    hans

    --
    Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH
    PostgreSQL Solutions and Support
    Gröhrmühlgasse 26, 2700 Wiener Neustadt
    Tel: +43/1/205 10 35 / 340
    www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at
  • Dave Page at Feb 4, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    On Feb 4, 2008 3:20 PM, Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote:
    how can we determine which companies are certified from the beginning?
    i think it makes no sense to push redhat, for instance, through a
    certification process as they have tom and some others :).
    I'm not sure if they actually do have any others, but having Tom
    certainly doesn't mean that RedHats' support staff (who may have no
    idea who Tom is) have any clue about what they are doing.

    /D
  • Hans-Jürgen Schönig at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    On Feb 4, 2008, at 4:32 PM, Dave Page wrote:

    On Feb 4, 2008 3:20 PM, Hans-Juergen Schoenig
    wrote:
    how can we determine which companies are certified from the
    beginning?
    i think it makes no sense to push redhat, for instance, through a
    certification process as they have tom and some others :).
    I'm not sure if they actually do have any others, but having Tom
    certainly doesn't mean that RedHats' support staff (who may have no
    idea who Tom is) have any clue about what they are doing.

    /D

    you are absolutely true ...
    what i am trying to point out is the following: imagine simon riggs
    or yourself. you are definitely guys who should be allowed to certify
    people.
    so, somehow we have to "flag" people like you to allow them to issue
    certifications ...

    i would suggest that individual or companies who have contributed
    codes to the postgresql backend (or other major pg project like
    pgadmin, dbi-link or whatever) should have some "gold" status and
    that only those people are actually allowed to certify other people.
    this would help us to make sure that we don't have too many
    "wonnabies" around and we can ensure top quality.
    i would suggest the policy: "if you want to certify people, send us a
    patch proving that you know how pg really works". this would give the
    entire thing a really professional look and it would be a very
    straight and easy rule.
    if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if
    every half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop
    before we start.

    most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in
    the past so it should be fine ...
    how about that?

    many thanks,

    hans


    --
    Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH
    PostgreSQL Solutions and Support
    Gröhrmühlgasse 26, 2700 Wiener Neustadt
    Tel: +43/1/205 10 35 / 340
    www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at
  • Joshua D. Drake at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 18:15:03 +0100 Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote:

    most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in
    the past so it should be fine ...
    how about that?
    Those same people should without incident be able to pass a
    certification test.

    Joshua D. Drake

    --
    The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit
  • Chander Ganesan at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Joshua D. Drake wrote:
    On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 18:15:03 +0100
    Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote:

    most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in
    the past so it should be fine ...
    how about that?
    Those same people should without incident be able to pass a
    certification test.
    I disagree, I think that some of those people might have quite a hard
    time with a certification exam. Any useful exam would *at least* cover
    some PostgreSQL Administrators (perhaps a separate developer exam..),
    and such an exam would cover a wide range of subject matter, none of
    which is/was related to developing or fixing source code. While we
    might have a developer that is great at writing a new optimization
    strategy, he probably won't take the time to focus on some more
    administrative tasks, like sequences, tablespaces, PITR - or other
    topics that aren't related to optimization.

    Also, isn't this putting the cart before the horse? I think for a
    certification program to succeed we first need to develop the delivery
    mechanism, question bank, and administrative mechanism. Once a
    certification is designed and in place, we can then focus on the
    ancillary aspects.

    I would think (from this discussion) that perhaps the first goal might
    be to determine the types of certifications to be offered (of there is
    to be more than one) and develop objectives - or at least what a "pass"
    of the exam should be demonstrative of. I would recommend (at least to
    start) a "PostgreSQL Certified Administrator" exam...

    IMHO, it will be difficult to assess who is qualified to deliver
    certification training - if at all possible. All that can be done (at
    most) is to prevent courses from being listed on Postgresql.org (and
    even that might be difficult)...

    --
    Chander Ganesan
    Open Technology Group, Inc.
    One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
    Morrisville, NC 27560
    919-463-0999/877-258-8987
    http://www.otg-nc.com
  • Joshua D. Drake at Feb 4, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:46:32 -0500 Chander Ganesan wrote:

    I disagree, I think that some of those people might have quite a hard
    time with a certification exam. Any useful exam would *at least*
    My point without trying to start a flamewar was:

    To be certified you must pass the test. I don't care if you are Tom
    Lane.

    If we show any favoritism we lose credibility and we are not going to
    do it.
    Also, isn't this putting the cart before the horse? I think for a
    Yes it certainly is.
    I would think (from this discussion) that perhaps the first goal
    might be to determine the types of certifications to be offered (of
    there is to be more than one) and develop objectives - or at least
    what a "pass" of the exam should be demonstrative of. I would
    recommend (at least to start) a "PostgreSQL Certified Administrator"
    exam... Right.
    IMHO, it will be difficult to assess who is qualified to deliver
    certification training - if at all possible. All that can be done
    (at most) is to prevent courses from being listed on Postgresql.org
    (and even that might be difficult)...
    We will not be able to certify training providers. That isn't the
    intent of the project. The projects purpose is to develop the
    certification.

    As far as the website you know how that works in order to actually
    doing something like that we would need actual complaints from actual
    users.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake

    --
    The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
    PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
    Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
    PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit
  • Hans-Jürgen Schönig at Feb 4, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    My point without trying to start a flamewar was:

    To be certified you must pass the test. I don't care if you are Tom
    Lane.

    to take this posting seriously i have to assume that this is a joke ...

    best regards,

    hans


    --
    Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH
    PostgreSQL Solutions and Support
    Gröhrmühlgasse 26, 2700 Wiener Neustadt
    Tel: +43/1/205 10 35 / 340
    www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at
  • Dan Langille at Feb 4, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    On Mon, February 4, 2008 1:48 pm, Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote:

    My point without trying to start a flamewar was:

    To be certified you must pass the test. I don't care if you are Tom
    Lane.

    to take this posting seriously i have to assume that this is a joke ...
    Any respectable certification must be subjective. You don't look at the
    person, think about it, and decide. There must be a subjective and
    independent test. To do otherwise greatly reduces the value of the
    certification.

    --
    Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
  • Josh Berkus at Feb 4, 2008 at 7:08 pm
    DVL,
    Any respectable certification must be subjective. You don't look at the
    person, think about it, and decide. There must be a subjective and
    independent test. To do otherwise greatly reduces the value of the
    certification.
    I think you mean "objective".

    Anyway, this is all fairly academic until Josh & Co. have at least one
    certification exam at least halfway developed. At this point, I think
    we've collected enough opinions on -advocacy; maybe we should let the exam
    hackers do some work?

    --
    --Josh

    Josh Berkus
    PostgreSQL @ Sun
    San Francisco
  • Dan Langille at Feb 4, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    On Mon, February 4, 2008 2:11 pm, Josh Berkus wrote:
    DVL,
    Any respectable certification must be subjective. You don't look at the
    person, think about it, and decide. There must be a subjective and
    independent test. To do otherwise greatly reduces the value of the
    certification.
    I think you mean "objective".
    Yes, I do. Sorry.
    Anyway, this is all fairly academic until Josh & Co. have at least one
    certification exam at least halfway developed. At this point, I think
    we've collected enough opinions on -advocacy; maybe we should let the exam
    hackers do some work?
    Yes, please. Those that what to work on this project should discuss it on
    the cert list, not advocacy. Thank you.

    --
    Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
  • Jean-Paul Argudo at Feb 4, 2008 at 6:31 pm
    Hi all,


    First of all, I dumbly press the "reply-all" button, since, I *really
    don't know* what is the final concensus in there!!

    I read on different places that some are pros others are cons of a
    separate maling-list.

    My point is that I'd like people criticize this stop now, and
    participate in the very discussion...
    how can we determine which companies are certified from the beginning?
    i think it makes no sense to push redhat, for instance, through a
    certification process as they have tom and some others :).
    I'm not sure if they actually do have any others, but having Tom
    certainly doesn't mean that RedHats' support staff (who may have no
    idea who Tom is) have any clue about what they are doing.
    you are absolutely true ...
    Yes, we all think the same. Dave is absolutely true there.
    what i am trying to point out is the following: imagine simon riggs or
    yourself. you are definitely guys who should be allowed to certify people.
    so, somehow we have to "flag" people like you to allow them to issue
    certifications ...

    i would suggest that individual or companies who have contributed codes
    to the postgresql backend (or other major pg project like pgadmin,
    dbi-link or whatever) should have some "gold" status and that only those
    people are actually allowed to certify other people. this would help us
    to make sure that we don't have too many "wonnabies" around and we can
    ensure top quality.
    I disagree on this point.

    To me, we are discussing certification on a user-end point of view.

    I want DBAs to be certified, not a certificate of PostgreSQL hacking.
    Sure, PostgreSQL hackers are good at PostgreSQL DBA... But companies
    don't want PostgreSQL hackers to manage their databases, they want DBAs.
    i would suggest the policy: "if you want to certify people, send us a
    patch proving that you know how pg really works". this would give the
    entire thing a really professional look and it would be a very straight
    and easy rule.
    I disagree completely. You'll have less than 10 companies certified
    worldwide then. And less than a few hundred of ceritified "PostgreSQL
    hackers", what the industry really don't care about.

    CTO want to hire PostgreSQL DBAs and with a right certification program,
    they'll have a paper to ask them...

    In the same idea:

    - a TOEFL (or TOIC) relates your knowledge in English
    - a driving licence relates your knowledge of driving a car
    - etc....

    A PostgreSQL certification relates your knowledge in managing PostgreSQL
    databases, not how PostgreSQL is coded.
    if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if every
    half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop before we
    start.
    I know thats not what you wanted to tell us, but Its a kind of rudeness
    to me reading this.

    Saying that top quality is only achieved with PostgreSQL coding, and
    that all others are half-professional is an insult to me.
    most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in the
    past so it should be fine ...
    how about that?
    Most guys on this list? I think thats the contrary.

    But please admit we are discussing the PostgreSQL certification on the
    end-user point of view!!

    I mean I want DBAs to have a paper that "certificate" they have enough
    knowledge in PostgreSQL to manage database upon this technology the
    right way.
    many thanks,
    hans
    Cheers,

    --
    Jean-Paul Argudo
    www.PostgreSQLFr.org
    www.Dalibo.com
  • Hans-Jürgen Schönig at Feb 4, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    what i am trying to point out is the following: imagine simon
    riggs or
    yourself. you are definitely guys who should be allowed to certify
    people.
    so, somehow we have to "flag" people like you to allow them to issue
    certifications ...

    i would suggest that individual or companies who have contributed
    codes
    to the postgresql backend (or other major pg project like pgadmin,
    dbi-link or whatever) should have some "gold" status and that only
    those
    people are actually allowed to certify other people. this would
    help us
    to make sure that we don't have too many "wonnabies" around and we
    can
    ensure top quality.
    I disagree on this point.

    To me, we are discussing certification on a user-end point of view.
    I want DBAs to be certified, not a certificate of PostgreSQL hacking.
    Sure, PostgreSQL hackers are good at PostgreSQL DBA... But companies
    don't want PostgreSQL hackers to manage their databases, they want
    DBAs.
    Somebody who issues a certificate has to be know more than just the
    syntax of pg_dump.
    If we want to make sure that this certificate is worth anything, we
    have to make sure that people who are allowed to issue it are more
    than just "a little postgres".
    otherwise we end up with a nightmare - 50000000000 people will issue
    worthless certificates.
    if every stupid guy wearing a tie is allowed to issue this, it is
    worthless ...
    i would suggest the policy: "if you want to certify people, send us a
    patch proving that you know how pg really works". this would give the
    entire thing a really professional look and it would be a very
    straight
    and easy rule.
    I disagree completely. You'll have less than 10 companies certified
    worldwide then. And less than a few hundred of ceritified "PostgreSQL
    hackers", what the industry really don't care about.

    this is exactly my point.
    how many companies do you know who are really good at postgres?
    personally i am really fed up of "self announced postgres" people.
    i am fixing problems caused by those people day after day.
    if we decide to introduce a certificate we have to make sure that it
    is really professional.
    to me doing some advocacy posting is just not enough to certify.
    more deep knowledge is required.
    somebody who has been in professional postgresql business has written
    at least one piece of useful code which has been released to the
    public - so it is no big deal.
    i just want to avoid that every guy who is able to type pg_dump can
    do the job ...

    CTO want to hire PostgreSQL DBAs and with a right certification
    program,
    they'll have a paper to ask them...

    In the same idea:

    - a TOEFL (or TOIC) relates your knowledge in English
    - a driving licence relates your knowledge of driving a car
    - etc....

    A PostgreSQL certification relates your knowledge in managing
    PostgreSQL
    databases, not how PostgreSQL is coded.

    i am not talking about the guy who gets certified.
    i am referring to the people who are allowed to issue certificates.
    if you know how PG works inside - then you are qualified to certify
    other people.
    if you don't have detailed knowledge about internal algorithms, you
    are just not qualified to certify other people.

    postgres is the database of professionals ...

    if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if
    every
    half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop
    before we
    start.
    I know thats not what you wanted to tell us, but Its a kind of
    rudeness
    to me reading this.

    Saying that top quality is only achieved with PostgreSQL coding, and
    that all others are half-professional is an insult to me.

    you got me wrong. i am just telling that we need strict guidelines
    and strict tests.
    otherwise it is worthless ...
    most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in
    the
    past so it should be fine ...
    how about that?
    Most guys on this list? I think thats the contrary.

    But please admit we are discussing the PostgreSQL certification on the
    end-user point of view!!

    I mean I want DBAs to have a paper that "certificate" they have enough
    knowledge in PostgreSQL to manage database upon this technology the
    right way.

    don't get me wrong but you have to distinguish between fundermental
    knowledge and pure posting power ...
    what we want is a certificate issued by people who really know about
    postgres.
    not every guy running a postgres forum is qualified to actually judge
    others ...

    many thanks,

    hans
    Fr.org
    www.Dalibo.com


    --
    Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH
    PostgreSQL Solutions and Support
    Gröhrmühlgasse 26, 2700 Wiener Neustadt
    Tel: +43/1/205 10 35 / 340
    www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at
  • Ron Mayer at Feb 4, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote:
    If we want to make sure that this certificate is worth anything, we have
    to make sure that people who are allowed to issue it are more than just
    "a little postgres".
    otherwise we end up with a nightmare - 50000000000 people will issue
    worthless certificates.
    if every stupid guy wearing a tie is allowed to issue this, it is
    worthless ...
    The opposite extreme is bad too. I've seen companies pick Visual Basic
    because it's easier to hire certified VB6 developers than python/C/etc.

    FWIW, some Sun database product has about a thousand or two certified
    people http://www.mysql.com/certification/candidates.php ; as well
    as having expensive books to study for it
    http://www.mysql.com/certification/studyguides/

    IMHO their certification tests seem to have a reasonable degree of
    detail.
  • Stéphane A. Schildknecht at Feb 5, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    Hans-Juergen Schoenig a écrit :
    I want DBAs to be certified, not a certificate of PostgreSQL hacking.
    Sure, PostgreSQL hackers are good at PostgreSQL DBA... But companies
    don't want PostgreSQL hackers to manage their databases, they want DBAs.
    Somebody who issues a certificate has to be know more than just the
    syntax of pg_dump.
    Who did say the opposite ?
    If we want to make sure that this certificate is worth anything, we have
    to make sure that people who are allowed to issue it are more than just
    "a little postgres".
    We surely want certification to be a proof of a good knowledge. That
    does not mean people will have to know the code in every single line.

    That is what certification is suppose to verify. You certify what you
    put in the certification.

    But if you think we can't take the risk to give that certification to a
    guy that doesn't deserve it, maybe we should think about a certification
    that is something like "a core hacker will work with you for 6 months as
    it is the only way to be sure you won't ever tell something that could
    hurt the good feeling people have about PostgreSQL."
    otherwise we end up with a nightmare - 50000000000 people will issue
    worthless certificates.
    I wondr how many centuries we'll have to wait to have 1% of that number
    intersted in PostgreSQL :-)
    if every stupid guy wearing a tie is allowed to issue this, it is
    worthless ...
    I'm wondering if wearing a tie and having passed SRA certification means
    I'm a stupid guy?
    I disagree completely. You'll have less than 10 companies certified
    worldwide then. And less than a few hundred of ceritified "PostgreSQL
    hackers", what the industry really don't care about.

    this is exactly my point.
    how many companies do you know who are really good at postgres?
    Who can say who's good, by now ?
    personally i am really fed up of "self announced postgres" people.
    Is there another way of proving it ?
    i am fixing problems caused by those people day after day.
    We all do ne day or the other. I'm sorry, I had never coded a single
    line in PostgreSQL. Does that make me a liar when I say I have some
    knowledge in PostgreSQL ?
    if we decide to introduce a certificate we have to make sure that it is
    really professional. Sure.
    to me doing some advocacy posting is just not enough to certify.
    more deep knowledge is required. Sure.
    somebody who has been in professional postgresql business has written at
    least one piece of useful code which has been released to the public -
    so it is no big deal.
    Too restricting.
    i just want to avoid that every guy who is able to type pg_dump can do
    the job ...
    That is not so bad to already know how to use pg_dump, after all.
    A PostgreSQL certification relates your knowledge in managing PostgreSQL
    databases, not how PostgreSQL is coded.

    i am not talking about the guy who gets certified.
    I thought you were.
    i am referring to the people who are allowed to issue certificates.

    That is another aspect of the question.

    First one is :

    - What do we put in ?

    Second one is :

    - Who will write the certification questions. And wo will verify the
    answer ?

    I'm afraid that it has to be a little more automatic. And then, an MCQ
    form is some good way of proceeding.
    if you know how PG works inside - then you are qualified to certify
    other people.
    if you don't have detailed knowledge about internal algorithms, you are
    just not qualified to certify other people.

    postgres is the database of professionals ...

    if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if every
    half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop before we
    start.
    I know thats not what you wanted to tell us, but Its a kind of rudeness
    to me reading this.

    Saying that top quality is only achieved with PostgreSQL coding, and
    that all others are half-professional is an insult to me.

    you got me wrong. i am just telling that we need strict guidelines and
    strict tests.
    otherwise it is worthless ...
    We all agree. So the questions ramaining are :
    - what should be in the certification program
    - is an MCQ significant enough ?
    - are there people willing to watch every attendee answers or is
    possible to have an automatic processing of answers ?
    - who will decide who's smart enough to write questions and test ?



    Regards,
    --
    Stéphane SCHILDKNECHT
    Président de PostgreSQLFr
    Tél. 09 53 69 97 12
    http://www.postgresqlfr.org
  • Dan Langille at Feb 5, 2008 at 2:11 pm
    I have seriously trimmed the To/CC fields and remove cert@

    Please stop cross posting between the lists.

    Stéphane A. Schildknecht wrote:
    We all agree. So the questions ramaining are :
    - what should be in the certification program
    - is an MCQ significant enough ?
    - are there people willing to watch every attendee answers or is
    possible to have an automatic processing of answers ?
    - who will decide who's smart enough to write questions and test ?
    I think this answers your questions:

    http://lists.postgresqlcertification.org/pipermail/cert/2008-February/000067.html

    Further discussion should be directed to the cert list, as previously
    suggested.

    --
    Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/
    BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/
    PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/
  • Tino Wildenhain at Feb 5, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    Hans-Juergen Schoenig wrote: ...
    you are absolutely true ...
    what i am trying to point out is the following: imagine simon riggs or
    yourself. you are definitely guys who should be allowed to certify people.
    so, somehow we have to "flag" people like you to allow them to issue
    certifications ...

    i would suggest that individual or companies who have contributed codes
    to the postgresql backend (or other major pg project like pgadmin,
    dbi-link or whatever) should have some "gold" status and that only those
    people are actually allowed to certify other people. this would help us
    to make sure that we don't have too many "wonnabies" around and we can
    ensure top quality.
    i would suggest the policy: "if you want to certify people, send us a
    patch proving that you know how pg really works". this would give the
    entire thing a really professional look and it would be a very straight
    and easy rule.
    if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if every
    half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop before we
    start.
    Well, I think knowing how something works and actually able to tell
    somebody about it so he understands are different matters.

    While top visible committers and drivers for the postgres developement
    are of course in a situation to review the material, some other
    process should be established to actually develop the certification
    course.

    This is more similar to the documentation of postgres and the
    contributors to that could be first address for getting good
    certification questions. Having some skills in teaching would
    also not hurt.

    Just my 2e-9 ct.

    Tino
  • Greg Smith at Feb 4, 2008 at 6:32 am

    On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

    Greg Smith wrote:
    If you just force the program to be open this issue largely resolves
    itself.  Companies that want to advertise their certification should have
    to list their certified members.
    Most companies don't want to make their employee list public.
    My first draft had "publically list" there and I backed it out for that
    reason. I was thinking they'd only tell the certifying organization, just
    so they could confirm to nervous prospective customers "do they really
    have x certified people there?" but not anything more than that.
    Companies might not like telling even them, but seriously: if Joshua and
    friends really wants to know who you have working for you the community is
    too small that you're going to be able to hide that for long anyway.

    Enough from me on this, all replies should just go to the certification
    list (which I'm not going to abuse anymore by sending to but not being a
    member of) and this is at best a "certification V2.0" topic.

    --
    * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
  • Joshua D. Drake at Feb 4, 2008 at 4:25 am

    On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:14:23 +0100 Jean-Paul Argudo wrote:

    Hi all,
    Josh Berkus wrote:
    What would it mean for a company to be certified?
    I'd hope it'd mean that I can have some degree of confidence
    hiring that organization for Postgresql support. No?
    I think we are having a terminology here. The term you are looking for,
    at least in the US is Partner. RH does this, a certain partner level
    can only be achieved if you have a specified number of RHCE's on staff.
    Thats my point. A "PostgreSQL Certified Company" is just about a
    brillant button on a company's web page, or a stamp on any commercial,
    "certifying" the company has knowledge in PostgreSQL and has prooved
    it has one.

    I think a company could be "Certified" when it hires a certain number
    of PostgreSQL "certified" individuals.
    Yes this is a potential, to have qualified companies reach a status
    within the community where they are recognized.

    I believe that we need to take one step at a time. The priority
    here is to build a certification for our community. Our community
    primarily contains people, not companies. We certainly can address the
    company if the community feels this is a good thing.

    However, let's keep focus everything will evolve as it should.

    Joshua D. Drake
  • Santiago Zarate at Feb 4, 2008 at 3:37 pm
    From jan-paul:
    Thats my point. A "PostgreSQL Certified Company" is just about a
    brillant button on a company's web page, or a stamp on any commercial,
    "certifying" the company has knowledge in PostgreSQL and has prooved it
    has one.
    I think a company could be "Certified" when it hires a certain number of
    PostgreSQL "certified" individuals.
    Its a great Idea...
    All the point is determining how much...
    2 Certified DBAs on a 5 consultants company can be enough.
    But 2 certified DBAs in a company of 100? 1000?
    Yes, it'll be hard to define something right.
    We got a problem here... what happens when the company its really
    small? in the case of Rotator Software... we're 4 techie guys... and 2
    trainess... (We're in the olap world ;)) so guess how's the situation
    there for us...

    Yet... hiring postgresql certified people does not ensures a company
    has the knowledge... since companies rotate its employees from time to
    time... so we may either have the certified guys tell us where they
    work, and by that give the button to the company.... or trust the
    company?
    I was thinking also that only Certified PostgreSQL Training Companies
    could pretend to prepare trainees for PostgreSQL Certification.
    I would suggest using PUGS for this.... but under the "academy" or so
    shape... in this... grupove/vepug/Venezuelan PUG (the 5 guys that are
    atm on it, and we're still in the process of creation) are giving free
    talks and planning to give a fullday training season at some
    university in march :D...

    The things I'd like this reflection to reach, on the "company
    certification", are:
    But I know many of you will think that we musn't mix certification with
    money at any time... I'm just telling you "heh, this could be a nice way
    to have money to the project", not that we *must* take it.
    My opinion is that if we only think about donations to "certify"
    companies, we will wait for them a long, long... long time.
    And sometimes, I'm a bit fed up of selling $5 mugs or $1 pins when I
    <know I need $200 for a banner or that I like to give $150 to a guy going
    present PostgreSQL far from home, or even help guys at PG.De or PG.Uk :/
    I know you'll tell me I have to ask companies here to donate. We did,
    many times.
    They all tell the same: "What I have for the money?" I respond "well,
    you helps us a lot".... No need to say this is not what they wanna hear.
    I agree with all your points here....
  • Joshua D. Drake at Feb 4, 2008 at 4:06 am

    On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 11:28:24 -0800 Ron Mayer wrote:

    Josh Berkus wrote:
    Id really prefer my company be certified by the community rather
    than by a company, despite the full respect I have in SRA's
    engagement in PostgreSQL and that we all know their contributions.
    What would it mean for a company to be certified?
    I'd hope it'd mean that I can have some degree of confidence
    hiring that organization for Postgresql support. No?

    It seems to have very similar benefits as certifying individuals.

    Microsoft seems to have something like that for their
    partners in their "Database Management competency"
    https://partner.microsoft.com/global/40012911
    Guys, with respect this thread does nothing for us unless it is on the
    certification list.

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake

    ---------------------------(end of
    broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0,
    the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
    joining column's datatypes do not match
  • Gregory Stark at Feb 4, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:

    Guys, with respect this thread does nothing for us unless it is on the
    certification list.
    Do we really need a separate mailing list for every thread? It's already kind
    of crazy with dozens of lists, many of them moribund, which most people aren't
    even aware exist.

    I was going to suggest pruning the mailing lists down to just 3-4 already. The
    last thing we need to be doing is creating new ones.

    --
    Gregory Stark
    EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
    Ask me about EnterpriseDB's PostGIS support!
  • Dave Page at Feb 4, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    On Feb 4, 2008 12:18 PM, Gregory Stark wrote:
    "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
    Guys, with respect this thread does nothing for us unless it is on the
    certification list.
    Do we really need a separate mailing list for every thread? It's already kind
    of crazy with dozens of lists, many of them moribund, which most people aren't
    even aware exist.
    Even a new domain seems odd to me - if this is to be official, then
    surely it should be under postgresql.org. Otherwise, whats to stop me
    or anyone else starting a competing certification and claiming it's
    just as valid? (other than the fact I don't have the time or energy!).

    /D
  • Alvaro Herrera at Feb 4, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    Dave Page wrote:

    Even a new domain seems odd to me - if this is to be official, then
    surely it should be under postgresql.org.
    +1

    --
    Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
    The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.
  • Selena Deckelmann at Feb 4, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Dave Page wrote:

    Even a new domain seems odd to me - if this is to be official, then
    surely it should be under postgresql.org.
    Having a separate TLD actually increases the visibility of the effort
    from a search engine perspective.

    We can learn a lesson from Perl advocacy - it is still possible to
    render projects invisible to the outside world through excessive
    consolidation. A search for "perl blogs" still does not put
    use.perl.org in the top results.

    -selena

    --
    Selena Deckelmann
    PDXPUG - Portland PostgreSQL Users Group
    http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx
    http://www.chesnok.com/daily
  • Gregory Stark at Feb 4, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    "Selena Deckelmann" <selenamarie@gmail.com> writes:
    On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Dave Page wrote:

    Even a new domain seems odd to me - if this is to be official, then
    surely it should be under postgresql.org.
    Having a separate TLD actually increases the visibility of the effort
    from a search engine perspective.

    We can learn a lesson from Perl advocacy - it is still possible to
    render projects invisible to the outside world through excessive
    consolidation. A search for "perl blogs" still does not put
    use.perl.org in the top results.
    Firstly, if we could be a tenth as successful as Perl that would be great.

    Secondly, the above has nothing to do with whether it's in a new domain or not
    and everything to do with how often those blogs are linked to from the outside
    world. I've never heard of them which tells you something about how heavily
    referenced they are.

    In any case search engine optimization is a mugs game. Concentrate on building
    a service that people want to use and people will talk about it and that will
    get you on the search engines. Search engines follow, they don't lead.

    --
    Gregory Stark
    EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
    Ask me about EnterpriseDB's On-Demand Production Tuning
  • Selena Deckelmann at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    On Feb 4, 2008 7:07 AM, Gregory Stark wrote:
    "Selena Deckelmann" <selenamarie@gmail.com> writes:
    On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Dave Page wrote:

    Even a new domain seems odd to me - if this is to be official, then
    surely it should be under postgresql.org.
    Having a separate TLD actually increases the visibility of the effort
    from a search engine perspective.

    We can learn a lesson from Perl advocacy - it is still possible to
    render projects invisible to the outside world through excessive
    consolidation. A search for "perl blogs" still does not put
    use.perl.org in the top results.
    Firstly, if we could be a tenth as successful as Perl that would be great.
    I agree! :)
    Secondly, the above has nothing to do with whether it's in a new domain or not
    and everything to do with how often those blogs are linked to from the outside
    world. I've never heard of them which tells you something about how heavily
    referenced they are.
    Ok, I think that I stated things to broadly. The search problem
    doesn't affect people who are already in the know - it affects
    everyone else. I'm sure you're aware that a large number of
    references doesn't necessarily mean that the information has any
    quality.

    Too much consolidation inhibits growth and probably discourages it. I
    was only trying to say that there's nothing wrong with having multiple
    domains. If we suddenly had 100 postgresql-related domains pop up
    with interesting content, things would be messy for a bit but the
    situation would work itself out.

    And postgresql.org would still be there to guide the way through the mess.
    In any case search engine optimization is a mugs game. Concentrate on building
    a service that people want to use and people will talk about it and that will
    get you on the search engines. Search engines follow, they don't lead.
    I agree except for that last bit. Search is huge and relying only on
    word-of-mouth is silly when we have plenty of people who know how to
    optimize.

    -selena

    --
    Selena Deckelmann
    PDXPUG - Portland PostgreSQL Users Group
    http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx
    http://www.chesnok.com/daily
  • Josh Berkus at Feb 4, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    I agree except for that last bit. Search is huge and relying only on
    word-of-mouth is silly when we have plenty of people who know how to
    optimize.
    This is completely the wrong argument to be having. Search engine issues
    are important only *after* you have a certification exam and program.
    Right now, you have a mailing list and presumably a trac archive, i.e.
    nothing. Search issues are at least a year away.

    So the important thing at this stage is getting the maximum number of
    useful community members to contribute to creating the certification. Is
    that better done on -advocacy or on a separate list? Is there any reason
    for a separate domain?

    If I were organizing it, I'd create a separate list but on postgresql.org,
    e.g. pgsql-certification@postgresql.org, to develop the certification, and
    maybe a 3ld for the trac, like certification.postgresql.org. That gives
    the effort an instant "community" stamp. It also limits the domain
    proliferation problem which was one of the chief complaints about our
    project 3 years ago before we rolled up the 6 domains what made up the
    main postgresql.org.

    It would also mean that the list archives are searchable together with all
    the other postgresql.org list archives, an important point.

    So, I'm in favor of a separate list, but think that having a separate
    domain is a mistake. The separate domain says "this is a Drake and Selena
    effort and not a community effort" to those not involved.

    --
    --Josh

    Josh Berkus
    PostgreSQL @ Sun
    San Francisco

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