Here are two flyers I'm planning on producing for
OSCON and LWE.

The first is based on Peter E's flyer from LinuxTag
and the second is based on an article from General Bits
on the Open Source Maturity Model.

Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
helpful.

Constructive comments and corrections are welcome.

http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgflyer.pdf
http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgosmm1.pdf

elein
============================================================
elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com

PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training

PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
=============================================================
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.

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  • Robby Russell at Jul 2, 2004 at 11:55 pm

    On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 16:39, elein wrote:
    Here are two flyers I'm planning on producing for
    OSCON and LWE.

    The first is based on Peter E's flyer from LinuxTag
    and the second is based on an article from General Bits
    on the Open Source Maturity Model.

    Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
    be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
    the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
    helpful.

    Constructive comments and corrections are welcome.

    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgflyer.pdf
    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgosmm1.pdf

    elein
    Elein,

    If necessary, I have a Portland connection for discounted printing for
    fliers. I would be happy to help out in this department if this is
    needed.

    Cheers,

    -Robby

    --
    Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek
    PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com
    Portland, OR | robby@planetargon.com
    503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com
  • Peter Eisentraut at Jul 3, 2004 at 12:33 am

    elein wrote:
    Here are two flyers I'm planning on producing for
    OSCON and LWE.
    Why don't you use the standard elephant logo?
    Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
    be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
    the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
    helpful.
    Yeah, if we could get some space, I have the OpenOffice file for the
    flyers I have, plus elephant images in various formats. That plus your
    flyers, we should really collect that somewhere.
  • Donnacha Mac Gloinn at Jul 3, 2004 at 3:32 am
    Well done, Elein.

    Here are some typo corrections and comments which I hope you will find
    useful:

    pgflyer.pdf - What is PostgreSQL? :

    Of the two flyers, this is by far the best.


    "The last stable version runs on 23 plattforms"

    - only one t in "platforms"

    "PostgreSQL is Open-Source-Software."

    - the hyphens are unnecessary for the phrase "Open Source software"
    (note, also, the letter s in software is not capitalized).

    "Hot stand-by"

    - again, the hyphen is unnecessary and not commonly used in the
    database context (ref. Google).

    "Fully ACID compliant, serialable transactions"

    - serializable?


    pgosmm1.pdf "Choosing PostgreSQL" :

    I understand what you are trying to do here but feel that space spent
    explaining the sort of project which PostgreSQL ISN'T will merely
    confuse people. A rule of thumb in any sort of marketing is to
    concentrate on what your product IS because the human mind isn't good at
    processing negatives (i.e. what something ISN'T). For instance, you
    don't want people to end up vaguely associating PostgreSQL with
    statements such as "The project has just started. The stability of the
    developers group and need for the product are unclear".


    Again, well done, you've put a lot of work into precisely the sort of
    thing that PostgreSQL advocacy needs.

    Donnacha




    On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:39:40 -0700, "elein" <elein@varlena.com> said:
    Here are two flyers I'm planning on producing for
    OSCON and LWE.

    The first is based on Peter E's flyer from LinuxTag
    and the second is based on an article from General Bits
    on the Open Source Maturity Model.

    Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
    be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
    the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
    helpful.

    Constructive comments and corrections are welcome.

    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgflyer.pdf
    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgosmm1.pdf

    elein
    ============================================================
    elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com

    PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training

    PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
    =============================================================
  • Elein at Jul 3, 2004 at 4:40 pm
    Typos have been corrected in the General PostgreSQL flyer.
    Thanks to Alvarro and Donnacha.

    About the Open Source Maturity Model... If it does not ring
    true for you, don't use it. I think it is a good objective
    evaluation method in which PostgreSQL shines.

    --elein
    On Sat, Jul 03, 2004 at 04:32:19AM +0100, Donnacha Mac Gloinn wrote:

    Well done, Elein.

    Here are some typo corrections and comments which I hope you will find
    useful:

    pgflyer.pdf - What is PostgreSQL? :

    Of the two flyers, this is by far the best.


    "The last stable version runs on 23 plattforms"

    - only one t in "platforms"

    "PostgreSQL is Open-Source-Software."

    - the hyphens are unnecessary for the phrase "Open Source software"
    (note, also, the letter s in software is not capitalized).

    "Hot stand-by"

    - again, the hyphen is unnecessary and not commonly used in the
    database context (ref. Google).

    "Fully ACID compliant, serialable transactions"

    - serializable?


    pgosmm1.pdf "Choosing PostgreSQL" :

    I understand what you are trying to do here but feel that space spent
    explaining the sort of project which PostgreSQL ISN'T will merely
    confuse people. A rule of thumb in any sort of marketing is to
    concentrate on what your product IS because the human mind isn't good at
    processing negatives (i.e. what something ISN'T). For instance, you
    don't want people to end up vaguely associating PostgreSQL with
    statements such as "The project has just started. The stability of the
    developers group and need for the product are unclear".


    Again, well done, you've put a lot of work into precisely the sort of
    thing that PostgreSQL advocacy needs.

    Donnacha




    On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:39:40 -0700, "elein" <elein@varlena.com> said:
    Here are two flyers I'm planning on producing for
    OSCON and LWE.

    The first is based on Peter E's flyer from LinuxTag
    and the second is based on an article from General Bits
    on the Open Source Maturity Model.

    Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
    be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
    the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
    helpful.

    Constructive comments and corrections are welcome.

    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgflyer.pdf
    http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/Tidbits/pgosmm1.pdf

    elein
    ============================================================
    elein@varlena.com Varlena, LLC www.varlena.com

    PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training

    PostgreSQL General Bits http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
    =============================================================
  • Greg Sabino Mullane at Jul 4, 2004 at 3:11 pm
    Quick notes, mostly to do with grammar and spelling:

    "Open-Source" needs neither capitilization nor hyphenation.

    A comma is needed after "Many organizations"

    A comma is needed after "large corporations"

    "have implemented" is wordy: go with "use" instead.

    The entire "Many organizations" sentence is awkward.

    "Join the PostrgreSQL revolution" sounds dorky and unprofessional.
    The corporate world does not want to hear the word "revolution."
    They want words like "stable", "TCO", "popular", and "enterprise"

    The entire "Join the" sentence is redundant and could be removed.
    Just jump straight to the bullet list.

    In the "excellent support" bullet, we may want to mention that
    the support solutions are "around the clock" or "24/7".

    "Appropriate for high volume environments" sounds a little
    weak. Replace "appropriate" with "excellent" or "good" or
    "full support" or ???.

    "Proprietary vendors use this strategy for that reason as well."
    The use of "this and that" is hard to read: rephrase as
    "Proprietary vendors use MVCC for the same reason"

    "The last stable version" implies there are "unstable" versions:
    just say "the latest version" instead.

    "Open-Source-Software" should be "open source software".

    "If your staff have" should be "if your company has"

    "in any way" needs a comma afterwards.

    Remove the "then" in the same sentence.

    "costs" should be "cost"

    "ANSI-SQL-99-Standard compliant" should be
    "ANSI SQL99 standard compliant" or
    "ANSI/ISO SQL99 standard compliant"

    Stored procedures bullet:
    Might want to mention more languages and move the bullet up.
    Perhaps PL/Java, Pl/R, and Pl/PHP?

    Add comma after XML

    Typos: "standby" "authentication"

    "Tools for generating portable SQL to share with
    other SQL-compliant systems"
    Not sure if this belongs in here.

    "Cross-database compatibility functions"
    What is this one trying to say?

    "gets the job done and with no hassle" is bad English: simply
    say "gets the job done with no hassles" or something else
    (anyone?)

    "Any more questions? You will certainly find the answer on the website
    www.postgresql.org."
    Actually, they won't, but that's not the flyer's problem. :)

    It's not clear what "PostgreSQL General Bits" is: it could easily
    be construed to be the name of the flyer.

    A quick pronounciation guide at the very top might be nice.
    (e.g. "pronounced 'Post-Gres-Cue-Ell'")

    Overall, a good start, but the tone and the style needs some work.
    We should get someone who does this sort of thing for a living
    to help out, e.g. a marketer or a proofreader. Anyone know someone?

    - --
    Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
    PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200407041112
  • Alvaro Herrera at Jul 4, 2004 at 3:48 pm

    On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 03:11:26PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

    Overall, a good start, but the tone and the style needs some work.
    We should get someone who does this sort of thing for a living
    to help out, e.g. a marketer or a proofreader. Anyone know someone?
    I think most of this text comes verbatim (or close to it) from
    advocacy.postgresql.org ... the text there should be fixed too!

    --
    Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
    "Et put se mouve" (Galileo Galilei)
  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 6, 2004 at 2:24 am

    xpdf doesn't seem to display either of these, but am curious as to why you
    aren't using the official logo for either of the flyers?

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Elein at Jul 6, 2004 at 3:13 am
    I don't know about xpdf. The colors sometimes come up
    weird in the acrobat built in on galeon, but I think
    that is just my screen and it doesn't always happen.

    I'm using the slony elephant just on whimsy.
    I just like them better and they have not
    snuck over to the php camp. But it is not meant
    to be a strong statement about anything.

    --elein
    On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 11:24:26PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    xpdf doesn't seem to display either of these, but am curious as to why you
    aren't using the official logo for either of the flyers?

    ----
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    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 6, 2004 at 3:20 am

    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    I'm using the slony elephant just on whimsy. I just like them better and
    they have not snuck over to the php camp. But it is not meant to be a
    strong statement about anything.
    For official events, especially one that we are trying to make as large a
    statement at as we seem to be with this one, using the standard, official
    logo should be, I think, a high priority ...

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Elein at Jul 6, 2004 at 4:16 am
    People can make any changes and republish the one page
    general flyer. (But I still need to link up the open office file.)

    The other one on the Open Source Maturity Model is my
    document--more of a white paper. It can be republished,
    but only as is.

    Since I made up the flyers and Varlena, llc is paying for the
    copies of both flyers for Oscon, I get to choose the elephant
    I like best.

    Anyone else is welcome and encouraged to create and print
    their own flyer.

    Personally, I think we should take over the elephant motif
    en masse. And I think that the particular elephant does not matter
    that much. But I understand that you (Marc) and others
    disagree.

    As I said, I'm not trying to make a statement. I'm just choosing
    elephant pictures :-)

    elein
    On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 12:20:21AM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    I'm using the slony elephant just on whimsy. I just like them better and
    they have not snuck over to the php camp. But it is not meant to be a
    strong statement about anything.
    For official events, especially one that we are trying to make as large a
    statement at as we seem to be with this one, using the standard, official
    logo should be, I think, a high priority ...

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 6, 2004 at 4:25 am

    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    Since I made up the flyers and Varlena, llc is paying for the
    copies of both flyers for Oscon, I get to choose the elephant
    I like best.
    Ah, ok, well, as long as they aren't considered "official project" flyers,
    that's okay ... sorry, I misunderstood your original intent ...

    Is anyone working on official flyers for OSCON? Or should we be looking
    at re-printing the ones that Peter used at LinuxTag for that purpose?
    Peter?

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Elein at Jul 6, 2004 at 3:51 pm
    I donated the time for these flyers. My company is donating
    the printing.

    Are you saying that you do not want the flyers I created
    at the PostgreSQL booth, representing PostgreSQL, at
    OSCON?

    Only because I'm using the slony elephant instead
    of the other one?

    --elein
    On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 01:25:29AM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    Since I made up the flyers and Varlena, llc is paying for the
    copies of both flyers for Oscon, I get to choose the elephant
    I like best.
    Ah, ok, well, as long as they aren't considered "official project" flyers,
    that's okay ... sorry, I misunderstood your original intent ...

    Is anyone working on official flyers for OSCON? Or should we be looking
    at re-printing the ones that Peter used at LinuxTag for that purpose?
    Peter?

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Andreas Pflug at Jul 6, 2004 at 4:15 pm

    elein wrote:
    I donated the time for these flyers. My company is donating
    the printing.

    Are you saying that you do not want the flyers I created
    at the PostgreSQL booth, representing PostgreSQL, at
    OSCON?

    Only because I'm using the slony elephant instead
    of the other one?
    Probably not, but it's certainly unfortunate to use a different logo.
    It's a question of CI (Community Identity) to use the same logo
    throughout all documents covering the core product. Marketing is done by
    imprinting the same images into the retina again and again.

    BTW I like the LinuxTag flyer, the elephant as watermark is widely visible.

    Regards,
    Andreas
  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 6, 2004 at 4:22 pm

    On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    I donated the time for these flyers. My company is donating
    the printing.

    Are you saying that you do not want the flyers I created
    at the PostgreSQL booth, representing PostgreSQL, at
    OSCON?

    Only because I'm using the slony elephant instead
    of the other one?
    If you are distributing Slony brochures, use the Slony elephant ... we
    have an official logo, that is used *everywhere* ... in marketing, I
    believe its called 'branding a product', and slipping in a different logo,
    IMHO, only breeds a sense of confusion and incohesiveness as far as the
    project is concerned ...

    PostgreSQL Elephant != Slony Elephant != Mammoth Elephant

    They are all different logos, for different products, and should be used
    to advertise their respective products, not a different one altogether ...

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Joshua D. Drake at Jul 6, 2004 at 4:25 pm

    believe its called 'branding a product', and slipping in a different
    logo, IMHO, only breeds a sense of confusion and incohesiveness as far
    as the project is concerned ...

    PostgreSQL Elephant != Slony Elephant != Mammoth Elephant

    They are all different logos, for different products, and should be used
    to advertise their respective products, not a different one altogether ...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I agree completely so when does the PostgreSQL, Inc. elephant get
    changed ? ;) (This is not flamebait, I am just teasing Marc).

    Sincerely,

    Joshua D. Drake
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  • Josh Berkus at Jul 7, 2004 at 8:15 pm
    Marc, Greg, Elein,
    Are you saying that you do not want the flyers I created
    at the PostgreSQL booth, representing PostgreSQL, at
    OSCON?

    Only because I'm using the slony elephant instead
    of the other one?
    Hey! Let's not get carried away here. We *do* have bigger PR concerns than
    elephant designs -- at least we'll *have* flyers this year. And a table.

    I'd love to have everyone take a deep breath and count to 10^31-1. We are
    all interesting in promoting PostgreSQL. We are all working hard on making
    PostgreSQL flourish.

    Elein, I *will* ask you not to use the Slony elephant. The reason is that
    we're going to be doing a bunch of talking up Slony at OSCON -- distributing
    it on CDs and a brochure, for example -- and use of the Slony elephant on a
    general brochure about PostgreSQL could confuse people, such as making them
    think that PostgreSQL itself is sponsored by Afilias instead of just Slony.

    It would be nice to have the "blue elephant" on everything -- we'll have it on
    144 t-shirts, for one thing -- for consistency, but it's not absolutel
    yessential. While the "blue elephant" is our current de facto logo, no
    PostgreSQL community forum has ever taken a vote on it. Something we should
    discuss, really; it's not the only elephant design we have, and both Cornelia
    and Gavin have submitted significant variations.

    It's more important to have the flyers, in my opinion, than to have the
    "right" elephant.

    --
    -Josh Berkus
    Aglio Database Solutions
    San Francisco
  • Greg Sabino Mullane at Jul 7, 2004 at 1:05 am

    Since I made up the flyers and Varlena, llc is paying for the
    copies of both flyers for Oscon, I get to choose the elephant
    I like best.

    Anyone else is welcome and encouraged to create and print
    their own flyer.
    This is a strange attitude to take when earlier you said:
    Unless people *hate* them, links to these flyers should
    be created from *somewhere* on postgresql.org, presumably
    the advocacy page, but who knows where would be more
    helpful.
    ...which would assume that these are meant to be taken as
    official community-sanctioned flyers, regardless of who is
    paying for them.

    While the synergy between the community (e.g. pgsql-advocacy) and
    a commercial company (Varlena LLC) can benefit both parties, there
    is clearly a delicate balance that must be struck. In this case,
    I agree with Marc - if you are going to print out and distribute
    flyers at the PostgreSQL booth at OSCON, and have asked the community
    to not only proofread but make a prominent link to the flyers, then
    the community certainly has a right to ask that you put the correct
    logo on them. If these flyers are meant to be the exclusive property
    of your company, please let us know up front, so that the community
    can produce its own non-branded flyer. If you want to sponsor the
    flyer by having a prominent link to Varlena LLC on the bottom, that's
    great, but the final determination of the actual content should belong
    to the community.
  • Jan Wieck at Jul 10, 2004 at 4:31 am

    On 7/5/2004 11:20 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    I'm using the slony elephant just on whimsy. I just like them better and
    they have not snuck over to the php camp. But it is not meant to be a
    strong statement about anything.
    For official events, especially one that we are trying to make as large a
    statement at as we seem to be with this one, using the standard, official
    logo should be, I think, a high priority ...
    With respect to the flyers, I happen to agree with Marc. This is the
    Slony Logo, and I have never had any intentions to replace the well
    established and branded PostgreSQL elephant with it.

    The pg_live CD's Afilias is sponsoring for the events will have both
    logos with the appropriate text next to them. This is IMHO right since
    the CD will have Slony installed so that one could use them for simple
    replication tests.


    Jan
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  • Elein at Jul 8, 2004 at 10:17 pm
    I will change the logo to the usual elephant on the
    condition that the issues with regards to making
    the elephant "official" be addressed.

    The issues are:
    * the overlap of the elephant with both php and with pgsqlinc.
    * decision of who exactly designates the "official" logo

    This is how I was convinced:
    * People who both agreed and disagreed with me
    politely suggested I should change it for consistency's sake

    These were completely ineffectual arguments:
    * "You are wrong!"
    * Generalities about my gender and perceived nationality
    * The Community says so (two or three voices do not make a community)
    * Disregard for the effort to create collateral

    elein@varlena.com
    On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 11:24:26PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    xpdf doesn't seem to display either of these, but am curious as to why you
    aren't using the official logo for either of the flyers?

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Bruce Momjian at Jul 8, 2004 at 10:57 pm

    elein wrote:
    I will change the logo to the usual elephant on the
    condition that the issues with regards to making
    the elephant "official" be addressed.

    The issues are:
    * the overlap of the elephant with both php and with pgsqlinc.
    We were there first!
    * decision of who exactly designates the "official" logo
    The same way we officially do features and releases --- completely
    unoffically.

    :-)

    --
    Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
    pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
    + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
    + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
  • Josh Berkus at Jul 8, 2004 at 10:58 pm
    Elein,
    The issues are:
    * the overlap of the elephant with both php and with pgsqlinc.
    There's no way we can reasonably address this in the next 2 weeks.
    * decision of who exactly designates the "official" logo
    Vote of this list, WWW and Core, I'd think.

    Fortunately, we don't need an "official" logo, just an "official for OSCON
    2004 logo".

    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?

    --
    -Josh Berkus
    Aglio Database Solutions
    San Francisco
  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 8, 2004 at 11:12 pm

    On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

    Fortunately, we don't need an "official" logo, just an "official for OSCON
    2004 logo".

    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?
    I don't know, but I do know we've been using the elephant for almost a
    decade now ... we started with the 'elephant in crystal' that I believe
    Jan created, which was fantastic electronically, but didn't print very
    well, so it morphed into the cartoon one we now use ...

    Jan's version goes back to ... '97? And the cartoon one, I think, around
    '99 ...


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  • Jan Wieck at Jul 10, 2004 at 4:45 am

    On 7/8/2004 7:12 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

    Fortunately, we don't need an "official" logo, just an "official for OSCON
    2004 logo".

    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?
    I don't know, but I do know we've been using the elephant for almost a
    decade now ... we started with the 'elephant in crystal' that I believe
    Jan created, which was fantastic electronically, but didn't print very
    well, so it morphed into the cartoon one we now use ...
    At that time we had to chose between Crocodile (because PG was
    considered the last dinosaur that survived), Elephant and I was playing
    with a raytraced diamond. As a compromise I "suggested" the Elephant
    inside the diamond, and somehow that prototype ended up on the website -
    sure it didn't print well, it was just way to fuzzy and bad in contrast.

    BTW, that image on the website had "slonik" as filename or "alt" text,
    don't remember exactly. Back then I wondered what that means.


    Jan
    Jan's version goes back to ... '97? And the cartoon one, I think, around
    '99 ...


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  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 10, 2004 at 5:55 am

    On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Jan Wieck wrote:

    BTW, that image on the website had "slonik" as filename or "alt" text,
    don't remember exactly. Back then I wondered what that means.
    Fuzzy memory here, but isn't it russian for elephant?

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
  • Alexey Borzov at Jul 10, 2004 at 8:05 am
    Hi,

    Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    BTW, that image on the website had "slonik" as filename or "alt" text,
    don't remember exactly. Back then I wondered what that means.

    Fuzzy memory here, but isn't it russian for elephant?
    For "small elephant", to be precise.
  • Jan Wieck at Jul 10, 2004 at 12:28 pm

    On 7/10/2004 1:55 AM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Jan Wieck wrote:

    BTW, that image on the website had "slonik" as filename or "alt" text,
    don't remember exactly. Back then I wondered what that means.
    Fuzzy memory here, but isn't it russian for elephant?
    Slon = Elephant
    Slony = Elephants
    Slonik = Dumbo

    In my replication system, one node is a slon (hence the name of the
    replication engine executable). The group or cluster is called Slony and
    the scripting aid used to "ask" for various actions to take place is
    named slonik :)


    Jan
    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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  • Peter Eisentraut at Jul 10, 2004 at 12:48 pm

    Jan Wieck wrote:
    Slon = Elephant
    Slony = Elephants
    Slonik = Dumbo
    In March, I held a talk in Chemnitz which previewed Slony-I among other
    things. I mentioned in passing, "no idea where he got the name from".
    Of course, east Germans being relatively proficient in Russian, I was
    immediately corrected. So next time someone chooses a non-obvious name
    for a project, let us know what it means beforehand. :-)
  • Lamar Owen at Jul 10, 2004 at 4:25 pm

    On Saturday 10 July 2004 08:48, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
    Of course, east Germans being relatively proficient in Russian, I was
    immediately corrected. So next time someone chooses a non-obvious name
    for a project, let us know what it means beforehand. :-)
    Back when Vince was doing the website, he sent me a tarball of various forms
    of slonik. I think that included the raytracer source. I think I still have
    it lying around...yes, I do. It contains four files: ele_blue.ppm (117K),
    ele_gray.ppm (67K), a Makefile, and pg_diamond.pov (2.4K).

    At that time, I did a little research into the issue, and found what Jan has
    posted. So, about three years ago I was aware of the meaning, not that that
    is worth anything... :-)

    In any case, I much prefer the Slonik logo for web presentations, as it dates
    way back, is unique (that is, there are no other elephants inside of diamonds
    being used by any other project (or political party, in the case of the USA))
    and looks really cool. Work could be done to make it print better, I'm sure.

    Slightly off the topic, I still remember the logo being the elephant breaking
    through the brick wall... And before that, it was the word 'PostgreSQL'
    breaking through the brick wall. Unfortunately there was a time in 1998 and
    1999 that we are not archived on the WayBack Machine; the 'PostgreSQL'
    breaking through is there as of May 4, 1998, but the page for Nov 11, 1998
    comes up with a 'page not in archive' blurb. The next archived page is Oct
    12, 1999, which has the slonik logo, but had removed the wall. That page
    also blurbs about our being the Linux World Editor's choice database for
    1999... Incidentally, we are the Linux Journal Editor's choice RDBMS for 2004
    as well, according to my LJ I just received in the mail.
    Hmmm, this isn't the first year, though, is it?

    One of the most embarassing blurbs I remember, though, was at the 6.5 release
    (which is in the period of time not archived, incidentally) that said the 6.5
    release marked the PostgreSQL team's 'final mastery' of the codebase. I did
    find the blurb in a History document separately archived. See the page
    http://web.archive.org/web/20021001222155/www.ca.postgresql.org/docs/devhistory.html
    where it says "Every release is now a major improvement over the last. Our
    upcoming 6.5 release marks the development team's final mastery of the source
    code we inherited from Berkeley. Finally, every code module is understood by
    at least one development team member. We are now easily adding major
    features, thanks to the increasing size and experience of our world-wide
    development team. Like most open-source projects, we don't know how many
    people are using our software, but our increased functionality, visibility
    and mailing list traffic clearly point to continued growth for PostgreSQL. "
    Since this 'history' document says 'upcoming 6.5 release' that would date it
    in the spring of 1999. So it should now read 'PreHistory' of
    PostgreSQL... :-) Now, the blurb, in context, is a true statement, because
    the 6.5 release really was the breakthrough release for PostgreSQL. But it
    sure did sound a little arrogant to say 'final mastery'.....

    And I think Jan's project's name, which literally means 'elephants', is very
    nice, particularly given the vast contributions of one of my favorite
    Russians, Vadim. He did a bunch of heavy lifting for this project.
    Subselects, MVCC, and WAL. Three very large features, three complicated
    codebases. One greatly appreciated Russian. And Jan, I got it when you
    first announced it, and thought it was a hoot (that is, nicely, pun-ily,
    funny).

    But, having said all that, I am not a fan of the cartoon elephant.
    --
    Lamar Owen
    Director of Information Technology
    Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
    1 PARI Drive
    Rosman, NC 28772
    (828)862-5554
    www.pari.edu
  • Bruce Momjian at Jul 10, 2004 at 6:10 pm

    Lamar Owen wrote:
    One of the most embarassing blurbs I remember, though, was at the 6.5 release
    (which is in the period of time not archived, incidentally) that said the 6.5
    release marked the PostgreSQL team's 'final mastery' of the codebase. I did
    find the blurb in a History document separately archived. See the page
    http://web.archive.org/web/20021001222155/www.ca.postgresql.org/docs/devhistory.html
    where it says "Every release is now a major improvement over the last. Our
    upcoming 6.5 release marks the development team's final mastery of the source
    code we inherited from Berkeley. Finally, every code module is understood by
    at least one development team member. We are now easily adding major
    features, thanks to the increasing size and experience of our world-wide
    development team. Like most open-source projects, we don't know how many
    people are using our software, but our increased functionality, visibility
    and mailing list traffic clearly point to continued growth for PostgreSQL. "
    Since this 'history' document says 'upcoming 6.5 release' that would date it
    in the spring of 1999. So it should now read 'PreHistory' of
    PostgreSQL... :-) Now, the blurb, in context, is a true statement, because
    the 6.5 release really was the breakthrough release for PostgreSQL. But it
    sure did sound a little arrogant to say 'final mastery'.....
    That phrase is even in our release notes:

    Release 6.5

    Release date: 1999-06-09

    This release marks a major step in the development team's mastery of
    the source code we inherited from Berkeley. You
    will see we are now easily adding major features, thanks to the
    increasing size and experience of our world-wide
    development team.

    and, yes, it was me who wrote that. Many felt it was embarrasing to
    admit we didn't have full understanding of all the PostgreSQL modules
    before 6.5, but it was the truth, so if you thought it was arrogant, I
    must have struck the right balance. I have seen that phrase quoted by
    others outside the project so it must have gotten some people's
    attention, both good and bad. The phrase was uses to highlight how much
    progress we had made since 1.02 in 1996.
    And I think Jan's project's name, which literally means 'elephants', is very
    nice, particularly given the vast contributions of one of my favorite
    Russians, Vadim. He did a bunch of heavy lifting for this project.
    Subselects, MVCC, and WAL. Three very large features, three complicated
    codebases. One greatly appreciated Russian. And Jan, I got it when you
    first announced it, and thought it was a hoot (that is, nicely, pun-ily,
    funny).
    The Sloney elephant looks like he has an attitude, though. :-)

    --
    Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
    pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
    + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
    + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
  • Lamar Owen at Jul 11, 2004 at 1:38 am

    On Saturday 10 July 2004 14:04, Bruce Momjian wrote:
    Lamar Owen wrote:
    Our upcoming 6.5 release marks the development team's final
    mastery of the source code we inherited from Berkeley.
    That phrase is even in our release notes:
    This release marks a major step in the development team's mastery of
    the source code we inherited from Berkeley.
    Not the same phrase, and the second one, in the release notes, doesn't sound
    arrogant at all. It's the 'final' portion that caught my eyebrow....
    and, yes, it was me who wrote that. Many felt it was embarrasing to
    admit we didn't have full understanding of all the PostgreSQL modules
    before 6.5, but it was the truth, so if you thought it was arrogant, I
    must have struck the right balance.
    Some balance... But, yes, I was lurking the lists at the time and I remember
    some of the comments. The mastery has certainly increased since then. But
    'final mastery' is somewhat an asymptotic goal, no?

    The release notes have the right balance, because they leave room for the
    (realized) improvements since 6.5. I look forward to the next five years,
    given the strides that have been made in the last five.
    The Sloney elephant looks like he has an attitude, though. :-)
    Hmmm, just now noticed that. My preference is the 'slonik' one; the Slony one
    looks as if one has angered him/her.

    But the PostGIS one takes the prize. Talk about World Domination...
    --
    Lamar Owen
    Director of Information Technology
    Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
    1 PARI Drive
    Rosman, NC 28772
    (828)862-5554
    www.pari.edu
  • Bruce Momjian at Jul 11, 2004 at 2:07 am

    Lamar Owen wrote:
    On Saturday 10 July 2004 14:04, Bruce Momjian wrote:
    Lamar Owen wrote:
    Our upcoming 6.5 release marks the development team's final
    mastery of the source code we inherited from Berkeley.
    That phrase is even in our release notes:
    This release marks a major step in the development team's mastery of
    the source code we inherited from Berkeley.
    Not the same phrase, and the second one, in the release notes, doesn't sound
    arrogant at all. It's the 'final' portion that caught my eyebrow....
    and, yes, it was me who wrote that. Many felt it was embarrasing to
    admit we didn't have full understanding of all the PostgreSQL modules
    before 6.5, but it was the truth, so if you thought it was arrogant, I
    must have struck the right balance.
    Some balance... But, yes, I was lurking the lists at the time and I remember
    some of the comments. The mastery has certainly increased since then. But
    'final mastery' is somewhat an asymptotic goal, no?
    Yes, "final" mastery wasn't my wording. Not even sure if that makes
    sense in this context.
    The release notes have the right balance, because they leave room for the
    (realized) improvements since 6.5. I look forward to the next five years,
    given the strides that have been made in the last five.
    The Sloney elephant looks like he has an attitude, though. :-)
    Hmmm, just now noticed that. My preference is the 'slonik' one; the Slony one
    looks as if one has angered him/her.

    But the PostGIS one takes the prize. Talk about World Domination...
    Ah, yes, very cute.

    I think maybe we should make our catch phrase:

    Fortress PostgreSQL: The Bomb

    --
    Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
    pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
    + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
    + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
  • Jan Wieck at Jul 11, 2004 at 2:32 am

    On 7/10/2004 9:37 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:
    On Saturday 10 July 2004 14:04, Bruce Momjian wrote:
    The Sloney elephant looks like he has an attitude, though. :-)
    Hmmm, just now noticed that. My preference is the 'slonik' one; the Slony one
    looks as if one has angered him/her.
    I did care less about the angry look than that it doesn't look cute. I
    was kinda sick of cute looking toy like mascots while drawing slon.


    Jan

    --
    #======================================================================#
    # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
    # Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
    #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
  • Bruce Momjian at Jul 8, 2004 at 11:27 pm

    Josh Berkus wrote:
    Elein,
    The issues are:
    * the overlap of the elephant with both php and with pgsqlinc.
    There's no way we can reasonably address this in the next 2 weeks.
    * decision of who exactly designates the "official" logo
    Vote of this list, WWW and Core, I'd think.

    Fortunately, we don't need an "official" logo, just an "official for OSCON
    2004 logo".

    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?
    They say the elephant looks like PHP but with the first P backward. I
    don't see it myself.

    --
    Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
    pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
    + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
    + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
  • Elein at Jul 8, 2004 at 11:33 pm
    We do not need to resolve the issue right now, silly.
    It needs to be addressed sooner or later.

    --elein
    On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 03:58:06PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
    Elein,
    The issues are:
    * the overlap of the elephant with both php and with pgsqlinc.
    There's no way we can reasonably address this in the next 2 weeks.
    * decision of who exactly designates the "official" logo
    Vote of this list, WWW and Core, I'd think.

    Fortunately, we don't need an "official" logo, just an "official for OSCON
    2004 logo".

    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?

    --
    -Josh Berkus
    Aglio Database Solutions
    San Francisco


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  • Greg Sabino Mullane at Jul 8, 2004 at 11:49 pm
    BTW, does anyone know the history of how PHP came to use an elephant?
    I researched this once a while ago as to who was first and I think it
    was basically a draw...we started discussing having an elephant about
    the same time they did. I'd love someone to prove me wrong of course...

    At least we aren't in danger of having someone name their next
    browser release "Postgres" :)

    - --
    Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
    PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200407081950
  • Jussi Mikkola at Jul 6, 2004 at 10:07 am
    Hi,

    I think the question here is, why do you have there a picture of an
    elephant? Would a nice mouse be fine too?

    If the purpose of the picture is to be a logo, then it would be best to
    use the logo that is associated with what ever is the topic.

    The idea is, that when the user sees that logo, he knows, that this is
    the same company, software, or what ever. Seeing another kind of logo
    also means, that this is something else. Maybe a pirate copy of the
    original??

    If people are not happy with the current logo, then perhaps we should
    consider of having a new one. But changing logos is not like changing
    t-shirts. It should be thought of carefully, and there should be good
    reasons for doing it. And one should of course remember, that it can't
    be done too often.

    I think Shell is an example, that is often referred when talking about logos.

    Rgs,

    Jussi




    People can make any changes and republish the one page
    general flyer. (But I still need to link up the open office file.)

    The other one on the Open Source Maturity Model is my
    document--more of a white paper. It can be republished,
    but only as is.

    Since I made up the flyers and Varlena, llc is paying for the
    copies of both flyers for Oscon, I get to choose the elephant
    I like best.

    Anyone else is welcome and encouraged to create and print
    their own flyer.

    Personally, I think we should take over the elephant motif
    en masse. And I think that the particular elephant does not matter
    that much. But I understand that you (Marc) and others
    disagree.

    As I said, I'm not trying to make a statement. I'm just choosing
    elephant pictures :-)

    elein
    On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 12:20:21AM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, elein wrote:

    I'm using the slony elephant just on whimsy. I just like them better and
    they have not snuck over to the php camp. But it is not meant to be a
    strong statement about anything.
    For official events, especially one that we are trying to make as large a
    statement at as we seem to be with this one, using the standard, official
    logo should be, I think, a high priority ...

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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  • Alvaro Herrera at Jul 6, 2004 at 2:27 pm

    On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 01:07:02PM +0300, Jussi.Mikkola@bonware.com wrote:

    I think the question here is, why do you have there a picture of an
    elephant? Would a nice mouse be fine too?

    If the purpose of the picture is to be a logo, then it would be best to
    use the logo that is associated with what ever is the topic.

    The idea is, that when the user sees that logo, he knows, that this is
    the same company, software, or what ever. Seeing another kind of logo
    also means, that this is something else. Maybe a pirate copy of the
    original??
    Maybe, but I have seen many different penguins (althought the one from
    the (Marc or Larry?) Ewing guy is still the most common), and whenever I
    see one I know it's about Linux.

    So maybe people should not be picky about exactly which elephant is
    there ...

    Maybe open source/free software just has a different attitude towards
    logos. Maybe it's just me.

    --
    Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
    "La soledad es compañía"
  • Marc G. Fournier at Jul 6, 2004 at 3:40 pm

    On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
    On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 01:07:02PM +0300, Jussi.Mikkola@bonware.com wrote:

    I think the question here is, why do you have there a picture of an
    elephant? Would a nice mouse be fine too?

    If the purpose of the picture is to be a logo, then it would be best to
    use the logo that is associated with what ever is the topic.

    The idea is, that when the user sees that logo, he knows, that this is
    the same company, software, or what ever. Seeing another kind of logo
    also means, that this is something else. Maybe a pirate copy of the
    original??
    Maybe, but I have seen many different penguins (althought the one from
    the (Marc or Larry?) Ewing guy is still the most common), and whenever I
    see one I know it's about Linux.

    So maybe people should not be picky about exactly which elephant is
    there ...

    Maybe open source/free software just has a different attitude towards
    logos. Maybe it's just me.
    If its being "sold" as an "official document", the proper logo should be
    used ... if its being "sold" as a "company document", then sure, choose
    your own logo ...

    ----
    Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
    Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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