FAQ
Hi,

I am preparing a survey of the Perl Ecosystem which will take the TPF
survey and extend it.
We will have questions about usage of Perl 5 and we think there should
be also questions
about Perl 6.
So far I came up with only one:

How much Perl 6 do you know ?
answers:
- none
- I read some of the docs and wrote small snippets of code
- I wrote module(s)
- I use it in production environment

I'd be happy to get your input on how else would you put this question or
what possible other answers you would allow.

If you have other ideas what you would like to ask the greater
Perl Ecosystem please let me know that too.

regards
Gabor

----
Gabor Szabo http://szabgab.com/
Perl Ecosystem Group http://perl-ecosystem.org/

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  • Richard Hainsworth at Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 am
    Gabor,

    there is a big gap between 'i wrote snippets' to 'i wrote modules'. How
    about 'i have written programs to solve real problems' ?

    How about a question on involvement in the perl6 development process, so
    as to see how many people are following the process passively, and how
    many are contributing in some way.

    How about a question concerning respondents perceptions of perl6 as a
    language they would like to use, or something comparing the language
    with othr languages.

    If these are in line with the aim of the survey and you want, I could
    write the questions and provide possible graded answers.

    Richard
    On 12/29/2010 10:02 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    Hi,

    I am preparing a survey of the Perl Ecosystem which will take the TPF
    survey and extend it.
    We will have questions about usage of Perl 5 and we think there should
    be also questions
    about Perl 6.
    So far I came up with only one:

    How much Perl 6 do you know ?
    answers:
    - none
    - I read some of the docs and wrote small snippets of code
    - I wrote module(s)
    - I use it in production environment

    I'd be happy to get your input on how else would you put this question or
    what possible other answers you would allow.

    If you have other ideas what you would like to ask the greater
    Perl Ecosystem please let me know that too.

    regards
    Gabor

    ----
    Gabor Szabo http://szabgab.com/
    Perl Ecosystem Group http://perl-ecosystem.org/
  • Gabor Szabo at Dec 29, 2010 at 9:16 am

    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    Gabor,

    there is a big gap between 'i wrote snippets' to 'i wrote modules'. How
    about 'i have written programs to solve real problems' ?

    How about a question on involvement in the perl6 development process, so as
    to see how many people are following the process passively, and how many are
    contributing in some way.

    How about a question concerning respondents perceptions of perl6 as a
    language they would like to use, or something comparing the language with
    othr languages.

    If these are in line with the aim of the survey and you want, I could write
    the questions and provide possible graded answers.
    These sound like good ideas.
    We are interested both in usage and in the involvement of people in
    the development of Perl 5/6, CPAN
    and in the obstacles people see.

    So in relation to what Katherine wrote earlier we should have a
    question trying to figure out what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.
    Also I'd like to be able to figure out what could make more people
    contribute to the development. On any levels so that would include
    implementing part of Rakudo or writing tests or docs or any other area
    of involvement.

    The answers can be either single choice or multiple choice with a
    limit to the number of choices and we can always provide a comment
    field.

    Your help in preparing the questions is appreciated!

    regards
    Gabor
  • Daniel Carrera at Dec 29, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    So in relation to what Katherine wrote earlier we should have a
    question trying to figure out what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.
    That's an excellent question. Possible answers:

    * I'm waiting for a specific feature to be implemented in Rakudo.
    * Rakudo is too slow.
    * I didn't realize Rakudo was ready for use.
    * Other [ fill in the blank ]

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email, but a large
    number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Xue, Brian at Dec 30, 2010 at 2:39 am
    I want to adding one more answer about what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.

    There hasn't an official release of PERL6.0, just Rakudo. I'm afraid of Rakudo is cancelled, I don't want to make my product based on an uncertainty matter.

    Brian

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:25 PM
    To: Gabor Szabo
    Cc: Richard Hainsworth; perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Questions for Survey about Perl
    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    So in relation to what Katherine wrote earlier we should have a
    question trying to figure out what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.
    That's an excellent question. Possible answers:

    * I'm waiting for a specific feature to be implemented in Rakudo.
    * Rakudo is too slow.
    * I didn't realize Rakudo was ready for use.
    * Other [ fill in the blank ]

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email, but a large
    number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Chas. Owens at Jan 1, 2011 at 12:27 am

    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 21:39, Xue, Brian wrote:
    I want to adding one more answer about what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.

    There hasn't an official release of PERL6.0, just Rakudo. I'm afraid of Rakudo is cancelled, I don't want to make my product based on an uncertainty matter.
    snip

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Perl 6 is. As far
    as I know there will never be a release of Perl 6.0 (it definitely
    won't be PERL6.0). Perl 6 is a specification and a set of tests. Any
    program that can pass the test suite and conforms to the specification
    IS a Perl 6. Right now the program that passes the most tests and
    conforms most closely to the specification is Rakudo.



    --
    Chas. Owens
    wonkden.net
    The most important skill a programmer can have is the ability to read.
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 1, 2011 at 12:41 am

    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Chas. Owens wrote:
    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 21:39, Xue, Brian wrote:
    I want to adding one more answer about what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.

    There hasn't an official release of PERL6.0, just Rakudo. I'm afraid of Rakudo is cancelled, I don't want to make my product based on an uncertainty matter.
    snip

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Perl 6 is.  As far
    as I know there will never be a release of Perl 6.0 (it definitely
    won't be PERL6.0).  Perl 6 is a specification and a set of tests.  Any
    program that can pass the test suite and conforms to the specification
    IS a Perl 6.  Right now the program that passes the most tests and
    conforms most closely to the specification is Rakudo.

    But Xue still has a valid point that even the Perl 6 spec doesn't exist yet.


    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email, but a large
    number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 1, 2011 at 7:39 am

    On 01/01/11 03:41, Daniel Carrera wrote:
    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Chas. Owenswrote:
    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 21:39, Xue, Brianwrote:
    I want to adding one more answer about what are people waiting for before they
    start using Perl 6.

    There hasn't an official release of PERL6.0, just Rakudo. I'm afraid of Rakudo is cancelled, I don't want to make my product based on an uncertainty matter.
    snip

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Perl 6 is. As far
    as I know there will never be a release of Perl 6.0 (it definitely
    won't be PERL6.0). Perl 6 is a specification and a set of tests. Any
    program that can pass the test suite and conforms to the specification
    IS a Perl 6. Right now the program that passes the most tests and
    conforms most closely to the specification is Rakudo.
    But Xue still has a valid point that even the Perl 6 spec doesn't exist yet.
    Moreover, a survey should be testing perceptions, even if the
    perceptions contradict what some feel are facts. It sometimes pays to be
    agnostic about what can be counted as a fact to learn how other people
    think. Eg., in the real world there are those who perceive as fact the
    timeline of the history of life as set out in the Old Testament of the
    Bible, and there are those that look to other mechanisms for testing
    timeline theories, such as a the geological record. Dont want to start a
    religious war, just wanting to indicate that a survey can be useful if
    worded in a value-free manner.
  • Darren Duncan at Jan 1, 2011 at 8:32 am

    Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    Moreover, a survey should be testing perceptions, even if the
    perceptions contradict what some feel are facts. It sometimes pays to be
    agnostic about what can be counted as a fact to learn how other people
    think. Eg., in the real world there are those who perceive as fact the
    timeline of the history of life as set out in the Old Testament of the
    Bible, and there are those that look to other mechanisms for testing
    timeline theories, such as a the geological record. Dont want to start a
    religious war, just wanting to indicate that a survey can be useful if
    worded in a value-free manner.
    There are also those who perceive as fact that the biblical and geological
    timelines are not mutually exclusive and are both plausible. -- Darren Duncan
  • Gabor Szabo at Jan 1, 2011 at 9:16 am

    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    On 01/01/11 03:41, Daniel Carrera wrote:

    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Chas. Owenswrote:
    On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 21:39, Xue, Brianwrote:
    I want to adding one more answer about what are people waiting for
    before they
    start using Perl 6.

    There hasn't an official release of PERL6.0, just Rakudo. I'm afraid of
    Rakudo is cancelled, I don't want to make my product based on an uncertainty
    matter.
    snip

    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Perl 6 is.  As far
    as I know there will never be a release of Perl 6.0 (it definitely
    won't be PERL6.0).  Perl 6 is a specification and a set of tests.  Any
    program that can pass the test suite and conforms to the specification
    IS a Perl 6.  Right now the program that passes the most tests and
    conforms most closely to the specification is Rakudo.
    But Xue still has a valid point that even the Perl 6 spec doesn't exist
    yet.
    Moreover, a survey should be testing perceptions, even if the perceptions
    contradict what some feel are facts. It sometimes pays to be agnostic about
    what can be counted as a fact to learn how other people think. [...]
    just wanting to
    indicate that a survey can be useful if worded in a value-free manner.
    It would be nice to figure out what is the percentage of people who
    don't yet look at Perl 6 because there was not official Perl 6.0
    release
    or in more general what are the blocking issues for them.
    I just would like to make sure that by asking the question we don't
    strengthen the belief that there ever will be an official Perl 6.0
    release.
    Of course that might be part of *my* misunderstanding that I think
    there won't be such thing. I don't have trouble if the questions
    and the possible answers already provide some form of education
    pointing people to the possible real answers.

    So for example:

    I'll start learning Perl 6 (select one or more that fits your opinion)
    *) when Larry Wall declares that Perl 6.0 is ready
    *) after Rakudo 1.0 is released
    *) when the default running perl -v in my Linux distribution will say
    it is version 6.0 or later
    *) After the Learning Perl 6th edition will be published
    *) After DBI and DBD::Mysql is ported
    *) never
    *) I have already started to learn
    Other:


    What do you think?

    regards
    Gabor
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 1, 2011 at 10:00 am

    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    It would be nice to figure out what is the percentage of people who
    don't yet look at Perl 6 because there was not official Perl 6.0
    release or in more general what are the blocking issues for them.
    I just would like to make sure that by asking the question we don't
    strengthen the belief that there ever will be an official Perl 6.0
    release.
    ...

    So for example:

    I'll start learning Perl 6  (select one or more that fits your opinion)
    *) when Larry Wall declares that Perl 6.0 is ready
    *) after Rakudo 1.0 is released
    *) when the default running perl -v in my Linux distribution will say
    it is version 6.0 or later
    *) After the Learning Perl 6th edition will be published
    *) After DBI and DBD::Mysql is ported
    *) never
    *) I have already started to learn
    Other:

    What do you think?
    I think that's pretty good. Though personally, I can imagine the first
    two not being mutually exclusive. That is, if Rakudo 1.0 is released
    but Larry Wall hasn't said that Perl 6.0 is ready, I'd scratch my head
    and wonder. In turn, if Perl 6.0 is ready and Rakudo hasn't released a
    1.0 I might figure that they still need more time.

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email, but a large
    number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Moritz Lenz at Jan 1, 2011 at 11:36 am

    On 01/01/2011 10:15 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    It would be nice to figure out what is the percentage of people who
    don't yet look at Perl 6 because there was not official Perl 6.0
    release
    or in more general what are the blocking issues for them.
    I just would like to make sure that by asking the question we don't
    strengthen the belief that there ever will be an official Perl 6.0
    release.
    Of course that might be part of *my* misunderstanding that I think
    there won't be such thing. I don't have trouble if the questions
    and the possible answers already provide some form of education
    pointing people to the possible real answers.

    So for example:

    I'll start learning Perl 6 (select one or more that fits your opinion)
    *) when Larry Wall declares that Perl 6.0 is ready
    *) after Rakudo 1.0 is released
    Given the current version number scheme (year.month), it's highly
    unlikely that we'll ever see a Rakudo 1.0.

    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    *) when the default running perl -v in my Linux distribution will say
    it is version 6.0 or later
    *) After the Learning Perl 6th edition will be published
    *) After DBI and DBD::Mysql is ported
    *) never
    *) I have already started to learn
    Other:


    What do you think?
    Maybe add

    *) when it's about as fast as perl5

    I think it's an interesting question.

    Cheers,
    Moritz
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 1, 2011 at 11:53 am

    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Moritz Lenz wrote:

    Given the current version number scheme (year.month), it's highly
    unlikely that we'll ever see a Rakudo 1.0.

    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    People might be expecting that when Rakudo is ready it would have a
    1.0 release. I sure did. Using year + month is nice in a way, but it
    means that you don't immediately know if the release is production vs
    devel, or whether it's a major vs minor release.


    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email, but a large
    number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Patrick R. Michaud at Jan 2, 2011 at 4:27 pm

    On Sat, Jan 01, 2011 at 12:53:17PM +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote:
    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Moritz Lenz wrote:

    Given the current version number scheme (year.month), it's highly
    unlikely that we'll ever see a Rakudo 1.0.

    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    People might be expecting that when Rakudo is ready it would have a
    1.0 release. I sure did. Using year + month is nice in a way, but it
    means that you don't immediately know if the release is production vs
    devel, or whether it's a major vs minor release.
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 10:27 -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production
    release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?
    Linus declared what his goals for 1.0 were and started a 0.9x series.

    I think the transition was something like 0.12 -> 0.95 but when I
    started using linux it was about 0.99c or so. I started in December and
    the 1.0 was some time the following summer. I think the 0.95 (or
    whatever) was about August/September.

    Debian's first public release was something like 0.94rc6 but their
    version numbers now look like: 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 5.1 ...

    I think freezing a subset of what you eventually want to have and then
    getting as close as you can on a fairly tight schedule is the best way
    to get buy-in from users.

    Debian has a pretty good way to do this. Except for release-critical
    bugs, I think they eventually just push all the rest into the next
    release aobut a week before they publish the final product. I know that
    this description is imprecise but you can see it what they really do in
    their bug graphs.

    --
    --gh
  • Jan Ingvoldstad at Jan 2, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 18:05, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 10:27 -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production
    release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?
    Linus declared what his goals for 1.0 were and started a 0.9x series.
    … and so on.

    While this meta discussion is all very nice, I don't really see what it has
    to do with the questionnaire.

    Gabor didn't ask us to discuss the answers to the questions, he asked us to
    come up with more questions that we would like to see answered.

    At least have the decency to change the e-mail subject when the discussion's
    subject has changed!

    </curmudgeon>
    --
    Jan
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 2, 2011 at 5:33 pm

    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 18:25 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    At least have the decency to change the e-mail subject when the
    discussion's
    subject has changed!
    IMO, the subject changed at the second post. I was just responding to P
    Michaud who is the current principal developer of the s/w being
    discussed.

    <something rude>

    --
    --gh
  • Jan Ingvoldstad at Jan 2, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 18:33, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 18:25 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    At least have the decency to change the e-mail subject when the
    discussion's
    subject has changed!
    IMO, the subject changed at the second post. I was just responding to P
    Michaud who is the current principal developer of the s/w being
    discussed.
    You guys stopped discussing the questionnaire a LONG time before PM
    answered. There has hardly been a handful of helpful posts.

    Getting back on topic, I, for one, would like to know how many people have
    heard about Perl 6, and to what extent. I would like to know whether they
    use it or not, and to what extent (already covered in some of the
    suggestions), and I would like to know whether people like what they see or
    not, and to which extent.
    --
    Jan
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 2, 2011 at 6:02 pm

    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 18:45 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    You guys stopped discussing the questionnaire a LONG time before PM
    answered. There has hardly been a handful of helpful posts.
    That's what I said and that was my first post.

    Getting back on topic, I, for one, would like to know how many people
    have heard about Perl 6, and to what extent. I would like to know
    whether they use it or not, and to what extent (already covered in
    some of the suggestions), and I would like to know whether people like
    what they see or not, and to which extent.
    Many people seem to be proposing questions which ask people's opinions
    of things which are factual and can be answered readily by reading the
    documentation.

    For example, your question can be partly answered by looking at the
    rakudo download page. There were about 3000 downloads of the July
    release (I was one) and since then there have been less than 1000 (not
    me) per month.

    Personally, I have decided to finally make a commitment to writing a
    perl6 app. This is not entirely due to the state of rakudo. The
    biggest influence on my decision was the posting of the example of a
    class which implements a rolled dice.

    I've been interested in parrot and perl6 ever since they were announced
    but I don't have a lot of time or expertise to contribute. So I
    subscribed to this mailing list when I was finally convinced that perl6
    was going to really happen.

    --
    --gh
  • Jan Ingvoldstad at Jan 2, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 19:02, Guy Hulbert wrote:

    Many people seem to be proposing questions which ask people's opinions
    of things which are factual and can be answered readily by reading the
    documentation.

    For example, your question can be partly answered by looking at the
    rakudo download page. There were about 3000 downloads of the July
    release (I was one) and since then there have been less than 1000 (not
    me) per month.
    That tells us that there is a lower download rate, to be sure, and that
    might indicate a lower rate uptake.

    It does not, however, answer any of the question_s_ I wanted asked, and
    which others have wanted asked, not even partially.

    There is a difference between simplified statistical aggregates and getting
    responses from human beings, which are then analyzed.

    The way in which you ask a question can, of course, also introduce a bias in
    how the response appears.

    If you ask:

    "Do you think Perl 6 will ever be production ready?"

    you may have introduced a negative bias in the question.

    But with careful phrasing - something I've been sloppy with in this thread,
    I'm sorry to say - then you can (probably) get the information you want.
    --
    Jan
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 2, 2011 at 7:48 pm

    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 20:10 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    It does not, however, answer any of the question_s_ I wanted asked, and
    which others have wanted asked, not even partially.
    I haven't seen any such requests from you on this thread. Is this
    discussion happening elsewhere as well ?

    >
    [snip]
    But with careful phrasing - something I've been sloppy with in this thread,
    I'm sorry to say - then you can (probably) get the information you want.
    It seems to me "the information you want" is up to Gabor, who started
    this thread. I'm looking back at his posts:
    http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2010/12/msg1366.html

    ==
    I am preparing a survey of the Perl Ecosystem which will take the TPF
    survey and extend it.
    ==

    I'm not sure what 'TPF survey' is. Gabor has a URL:
    http://perl-ecosystem.org/

    in his original post, which was omitted from his follow-ups.

    There are 3 more ideas here:
    http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2010/12/msg1369.html

    The question of an official release arose here:
    http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2011/01/msg1388.html

    Apart from the 'TPF survey'. The main thrust seems to be:

    a) How to get people to use perl6.
    b) How to get people to help develop it.

    Seems to be a chicken and egg problem. I am about to start on (a) and
    if I get anywhere, I will try to work on (b). So (a) seems to be more
    important. I'm going to shut-up and look at the 'ecosystem' link now
    and perhaps see if I can figure out what 'TPF survey' means.

    BTW, one other thing that interested me is that padre supports perl6 and
    can be got running on windows fairly easily now. My IDE is 'emacs' but
    that does not help much with perl on windows ... so padre might be a
    boost to perl6 adoption, if we believe that an important target for
    perl6 is perl5 developers. Yes, I know that Gabor is responsible for
    padre so tia.

    --
    --gh
  • Gabor Szabo at Jan 2, 2011 at 7:51 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    I'm not sure what 'TPF survey' is.
    http://survey.perlfoundation.org/

    Gabor
  • Gabor Szabo at Jan 2, 2011 at 8:30 pm
    (a mistakenly private exchange back to the list)
    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 21:51 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Guy Hulbert wrote:

    I'm not sure what 'TPF survey' is.
    http://survey.perlfoundation.org/

    Gabor
    Thanks.  Found that already.  It does not list the questions asked and I
    can't figure out how to download the PDF report or to clone the
    repository it's in on github.

    I probably responeded to the survey but I won't remember without seeing
    the questions.
    the same here, I am trying to reconstruct the questions based on the results.
    I also asked the help of Kieren Diment who ran the earlier survey.

    Gabor
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 2, 2011 at 8:52 pm

    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 22:30 +0200, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    Thanks. Found that already. It does not list the questions asked and I
    can't figure out how to download the PDF report or to clone the
    repository it's in on github.
    Jan Involdstadt suggested I look at TPF website and following the link
    to the 2009 survey, I figured out how to get the git url (they've
    changed the interface since I was last there).

    git clone git://github.com/singingfish/Data-PerlSurvey-2010.git

    and

    less Data-PerlSurvey-2010/data/all_data.csv
    perldoc Data-PerlSurvey-2010/lib/Data/PerlSurvey/2010.pm

    gives you most of what you need.

    --
    --gh
  • Patrick R. Michaud at Jan 2, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    On Sun, Jan 02, 2011 at 06:25:18PM +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 18:05, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Sun, 2011-02-01 at 10:27 -0600, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production
    release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?
    Linus declared what his goals for 1.0 were and started a 0.9x series.


    and so on.

    While this meta discussion is all very nice, I don't really see what it has to
    do with the questionnaire.

    Gabor didn't ask us to discuss the answers to the questions, he asked us to
    come up with more questions that we would like to see answered.
    In order to put together a worthwhile survey, I think some "meta-discussions"
    about the questons/answers we're likely to encounter are important. I also
    think the existence of a survey itself is likely to re-open a variety of
    otherwise dormant Perl 6 discussions and threads (as it already has), so we
    should be cognizant of that potential impact.

    Still, if others feel that the "production release" meta-discussion is too
    far off-topic for consideration in the questionnaire, I'll let it drop here
    and perhaps reintroduce it under another thread.

    Pm
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 2, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    I think freezing a subset of what you eventually want to have and then
    getting as close as you can on a fairly tight schedule is the best way
    to get buy-in from users.
    That is generally what I expect to see in a production release, yes. I
    don't think it's a rule, but I expect to see a feature freeze, and a
    period where you just look for bugs for the existing feature set, and
    then comes the production release.

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 2, 2011 at 8:16 pm

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    The developers judge that the software is reasonably feature complete,
    and more importantly, it is robust enough to use in a "production"
    environment such as a school or company website, where customers will
    experience it. It does not mean that it is perfect, or fast. But the
    programmer should have a reasonable expectation that it will work
    correctly (aka as documented).
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    I never saw Perl 4, but I suspect 4.0.
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    I suspect 5.0.
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    I suspect 1.0
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?
    IMO, concurrent.

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Gabor Szabo at Jan 3, 2011 at 7:13 am

    On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
    On Sat, Jan 01, 2011 at 12:53:17PM +0100, Daniel Carrera wrote:
    On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Moritz Lenz wrote:

    Given the current version number scheme (year.month), it's highly
    unlikely that we'll ever see a Rakudo 1.0.

    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    People might be expecting that when Rakudo is ready it would have a
    1.0 release. I sure did. Using year + month is nice in a way, but it
    means that you don't immediately know if the release is production vs
    devel, or whether it's a major vs minor release.
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?
    I think it largely depends on who do you ask and I believe there will
    be a huge gap between
    private people and company people. Or between people who are involved
    in open source
    development and in-house developers.

    I guess most people won't even be able to answer those questions.
    While I am sure everyone has clear definitions and objective measurements <grin>
    in the end most of us just have a feeling of "ok, this is good enough".
    (We just don't talk about it publicly.)

    Some kind of an official blessing is needed by most of us. This can
    be Larry for Perl or Patrick for Rakudo or having it
    "supplied by our vendor" (e.g. Ubuntu, Red Hat or ActiveState).
    I think this is much less needed by the people on this list and
    involved more or less in Perl 6 and needed a lot more by people external
    to the process.

    Or did you mean "declared by the developers themselves"?

    Gabor
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 3, 2011 at 8:41 am

    On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Gabor Szabo wrote:

    I think it largely depends on who do you ask and I believe there will
    be a huge gap between private people and company people. Or between
    people who are involved in open source development and in-house developers.
    I don't see the open source vs in-house point you are trying to make,
    but I still agree with the general point that "production" partly
    depends who you ask and what they need it for. For example, I expect
    that most companies would tolerate more bugs in a program for internal
    use than in a program intended for paying customers.

    That said, I tried to give a vague notion in my earlier post.
    "Production" means that the developers have given me some sort of
    verbal assurance that the product is reasonably stable and can be
    relied on to reasonably work as documented.

    Some kind of an official blessing is needed by most of us. This can
    be Larry for Perl or Patrick for Rakudo or having it
    "supplied by our vendor" (e.g. Ubuntu, Red Hat or ActiveState).
    Yeah, something like that.

    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 5, 2011 at 11:38 am

    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
    Larry responded to a post of mine asking about when Perl6 would be
    finished - the post was about the time that Pugs was still being
    actively developed. He pointed to the difference between the waterfall
    model and the strange attractor model for software development, perl6
    progress being measured using the strange attractor model.

    Many of the questions and answers about a 'production release' imply the
    waterfall model. The concept here is that some one 'in authority' sets
    criteria which define 'finished'. Once the software / language / project
    fulfils the criteria - the edge of the waterfall - it is 'finished'.
    This has the advantage that everyone knows when to break out the
    champaign and have a party. It has the disadvantage that criteria of
    'finished' can rarely be written in advance because to do so requires
    precognition, or knowledge of the future. Is there any sophisticated
    piece of software that is 'perfect', has no bugs, is easy to use? Was MS
    Vista 'production' quality? Perl 5.0 was quickly replaced by Perl 5.004
    (I think), which include references.

    The strange attractor model implies a process that is never ending, in
    that there will always be deviations from the solution 'orbit' or
    'path'. However, there comes a time when for most normal purposes, the
    solution orbit will be so 'narrow' that the blips will be not be noticed
    for most situations.

    In this respect, qualitative statements such as 'when developers accept
    it' or 'providers such as ActiveState etc' bundle it are recognition of
    the strange attractor measure of progress of Perl6.

    Personally, I think that we are in sight of acceptance for Rakudo Star.
    This is an implementation of a subset of Perl6. I also believe that when
    Rakudo begins to implement Sets, Macros and deals with the problems
    posed by GUI, we will see further changes in the Perl6 specification. It
    is unlikely that such changes will 'break' Rakudo *.

    A question that would be useful to ask is:
    When will Rakudo Star be useful for some of your purposes?
    a) It is already useful;
    b) When running precompiled Rakudo * versions for a test suite of
    example programs is as fast as running Perl5 versions, on average.
    c) When running (from human readable text to final result) Rakudo *
    versions for a test suite of example programs is as fast as Perl5
    versions, on average.
    d) When Rakudo * implements a larger subset of Perl6 and/or access
    well-written C/C++ libraries efficiently, presupposing (c).

    Another question would be what should be in the test suite of example
    programs?

    The example programs are not the test suite, which verifies consistency
    with the specification. The example programs should be designed - I
    suggest - to test speed and memory footprint. Ultimately, programmers
    are interested in solutions that are quick and use least hardware
    resources (the human resource of writing a simple and understandable
    program being the strongest part of Perl6, at least I think so).
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 5, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    for use. You may talk about strange attractors and orbits, but I
    haven't the faintest clue how big the "orbit" of either Perl 6 or
    Rakudo is. Therefore, I cannot recommend it to other people, and I
    will hesitate to use it on anything that is very important.

    Daniel.


    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Richard Hainsworth
    wrote:
    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the
    difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
    Larry responded to a post of mine asking about when Perl6 would be finished
    - the post was about the time that Pugs was still being actively developed.
    He pointed to the difference between the waterfall model and the strange
    attractor model for software development, perl6 progress being measured
    using the strange attractor model.

    Many of the questions and answers about a 'production release' imply the
    waterfall model. The concept here is that some one 'in authority' sets
    criteria which define 'finished'. Once the software / language / project
    fulfils the criteria - the edge of the waterfall - it is 'finished'. This
    has the advantage that everyone knows when to break out the champaign and
    have a party. It has the disadvantage that criteria of 'finished' can rarely
    be written in advance because to do so requires precognition, or knowledge
    of the future. Is there any sophisticated piece of software that is
    'perfect', has no bugs, is easy to use? Was MS Vista 'production' quality?
    Perl 5.0 was quickly replaced by Perl 5.004 (I think), which include
    references.

    The strange attractor model implies a process that is never ending, in that
    there will always be deviations from the solution 'orbit' or 'path'.
    However, there comes a time when for most normal purposes, the solution
    orbit will be so 'narrow' that the blips will be not be noticed for most
    situations.

    In this respect, qualitative statements such as 'when developers accept it'
    or 'providers such as ActiveState etc' bundle it are recognition of the
    strange attractor measure of progress of Perl6.

    Personally, I think that we are in sight of acceptance for Rakudo Star. This
    is an implementation of a subset of Perl6. I also believe that when Rakudo
    begins to implement Sets, Macros and deals with the problems posed by GUI,
    we will see further changes in the Perl6 specification. It is unlikely that
    such changes will 'break' Rakudo *.

    A question that would be useful to ask is:
    When will Rakudo Star be useful for some of your purposes?
    a) It is already useful;
    b) When running precompiled Rakudo * versions for a test suite of example
    programs is as fast as running Perl5 versions, on average.
    c) When running (from human readable text to final result) Rakudo * versions
    for a test suite of example programs is as fast as Perl5 versions, on
    average.
    d) When Rakudo * implements a larger subset of Perl6 and/or access
    well-written C/C++ libraries efficiently, presupposing (c).

    Another question would be what should be in the test suite of example
    programs?

    The example programs are not the test suite, which verifies consistency with
    the specification. The example programs should be designed - I suggest - to
    test speed and memory footprint. Ultimately, programmers are interested in
    solutions that are quick and use least hardware resources (the human
    resource of writing a simple and understandable program being the strongest
    part of Perl6, at least I think so).



    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Anderson, Jim at Jan 5, 2011 at 1:14 pm
    Hear! Hear!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:15 AM
    To: Richard Hainsworth
    Cc: perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl

    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    for use. You may talk about strange attractors and orbits, but I
    haven't the faintest clue how big the "orbit" of either Perl 6 or
    Rakudo is. Therefore, I cannot recommend it to other people, and I
    will hesitate to use it on anything that is very important.

    Daniel.


    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Richard Hainsworth
    wrote:
    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the
    difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
    Larry responded to a post of mine asking about when Perl6 would be finished
    - the post was about the time that Pugs was still being actively developed.
    He pointed to the difference between the waterfall model and the strange
    attractor model for software development, perl6 progress being measured
    using the strange attractor model.

    Many of the questions and answers about a 'production release' imply the
    waterfall model. The concept here is that some one 'in authority' sets
    criteria which define 'finished'. Once the software / language / project
    fulfils the criteria - the edge of the waterfall - it is 'finished'. This
    has the advantage that everyone knows when to break out the champaign and
    have a party. It has the disadvantage that criteria of 'finished' can rarely
    be written in advance because to do so requires precognition, or knowledge
    of the future. Is there any sophisticated piece of software that is
    'perfect', has no bugs, is easy to use? Was MS Vista 'production' quality?
    Perl 5.0 was quickly replaced by Perl 5.004 (I think), which include
    references.

    The strange attractor model implies a process that is never ending, in that
    there will always be deviations from the solution 'orbit' or 'path'.
    However, there comes a time when for most normal purposes, the solution
    orbit will be so 'narrow' that the blips will be not be noticed for most
    situations.

    In this respect, qualitative statements such as 'when developers accept it'
    or 'providers such as ActiveState etc' bundle it are recognition of the
    strange attractor measure of progress of Perl6.

    Personally, I think that we are in sight of acceptance for Rakudo Star. This
    is an implementation of a subset of Perl6. I also believe that when Rakudo
    begins to implement Sets, Macros and deals with the problems posed by GUI,
    we will see further changes in the Perl6 specification. It is unlikely that
    such changes will 'break' Rakudo *.

    A question that would be useful to ask is:
    When will Rakudo Star be useful for some of your purposes?
    a) It is already useful;
    b) When running precompiled Rakudo * versions for a test suite of example
    programs is as fast as running Perl5 versions, on average.
    c) When running (from human readable text to final result) Rakudo * versions
    for a test suite of example programs is as fast as Perl5 versions, on
    average.
    d) When Rakudo * implements a larger subset of Perl6 and/or access
    well-written C/C++ libraries efficiently, presupposing (c).

    Another question would be what should be in the test suite of example
    programs?

    The example programs are not the test suite, which verifies consistency with
    the specification. The example programs should be designed - I suggest - to
    test speed and memory footprint. Ultimately, programmers are interested in
    solutions that are quick and use least hardware resources (the human
    resource of writing a simple and understandable program being the strongest
    part of Perl6, at least I think so).



    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.

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    Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
    The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

    References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
    http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 5, 2011 at 2:08 pm

    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Anderson, Jim wrote:
    Hear! Hear!
    Uhmm... sorry if I looked angry or whatever. Email is at times a poor
    medium of communication because you lose details like tone of voice
    and body language. I just wanted to highlight something that I think
    is relevant to anyone who wants to see increased adoption of Perl 6 /
    Rakudo.

    Cheers,
    Daniel.
    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.
  • Wendell Hatcher at Jan 5, 2011 at 2:23 pm
    There has been requests and talk of a production release for years now. Fancy titles released have come out monthly and quarterly for some time. At some point you have to say it simply isn't a good product or it is going to production how long are we going to hear excuses of my dog died past week and the production release is delayed for a year. Perl 6 at this point seems like a bad dream at best and there really isn't a need since moose and perl 5 have improved.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog

    On Jan 5, 2011, at 6:13 AM, "Anderson, Jim" wrote:

    Hear! Hear!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:15 AM
    To: Richard Hainsworth
    Cc: perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl

    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    for use. You may talk about strange attractors and orbits, but I
    haven't the faintest clue how big the "orbit" of either Perl 6 or
    Rakudo is. Therefore, I cannot recommend it to other people, and I
    will hesitate to use it on anything that is very important.

    Daniel.


    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Richard Hainsworth
    wrote:
    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the
    difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
    Larry responded to a post of mine asking about when Perl6 would be finished
    - the post was about the time that Pugs was still being actively developed.
    He pointed to the difference between the waterfall model and the strange
    attractor model for software development, perl6 progress being measured
    using the strange attractor model.

    Many of the questions and answers about a 'production release' imply the
    waterfall model. The concept here is that some one 'in authority' sets
    criteria which define 'finished'. Once the software / language / project
    fulfils the criteria - the edge of the waterfall - it is 'finished'. This
    has the advantage that everyone knows when to break out the champaign and
    have a party. It has the disadvantage that criteria of 'finished' can rarely
    be written in advance because to do so requires precognition, or knowledge
    of the future. Is there any sophisticated piece of software that is
    'perfect', has no bugs, is easy to use? Was MS Vista 'production' quality?
    Perl 5.0 was quickly replaced by Perl 5.004 (I think), which include
    references.

    The strange attractor model implies a process that is never ending, in that
    there will always be deviations from the solution 'orbit' or 'path'.
    However, there comes a time when for most normal purposes, the solution
    orbit will be so 'narrow' that the blips will be not be noticed for most
    situations.

    In this respect, qualitative statements such as 'when developers accept it'
    or 'providers such as ActiveState etc' bundle it are recognition of the
    strange attractor measure of progress of Perl6.

    Personally, I think that we are in sight of acceptance for Rakudo Star. This
    is an implementation of a subset of Perl6. I also believe that when Rakudo
    begins to implement Sets, Macros and deals with the problems posed by GUI,
    we will see further changes in the Perl6 specification. It is unlikely that
    such changes will 'break' Rakudo *.

    A question that would be useful to ask is:
    When will Rakudo Star be useful for some of your purposes?
    a) It is already useful;
    b) When running precompiled Rakudo * versions for a test suite of example
    programs is as fast as running Perl5 versions, on average.
    c) When running (from human readable text to final result) Rakudo * versions
    for a test suite of example programs is as fast as Perl5 versions, on
    average.
    d) When Rakudo * implements a larger subset of Perl6 and/or access
    well-written C/C++ libraries efficiently, presupposing (c).

    Another question would be what should be in the test suite of example
    programs?

    The example programs are not the test suite, which verifies consistency with
    the specification. The example programs should be designed - I suggest - to
    test speed and memory footprint. Ultimately, programmers are interested in
    solutions that are quick and use least hardware resources (the human
    resource of writing a simple and understandable program being the strongest
    part of Perl6, at least I think so).



    --
    No trees were destroyed in the generation of this email. However, a
    large number of electrons were severely inconvenienced.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This message w/attachments (message) is intended solely for the use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or proprietary. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, and then please delete and destroy all copies and attachments, and be advised that any review or dissemination of, or the taking of any action in reliance on, the information contained in or attached to this message is prohibited.
    Unless specifically indicated, this message is not an offer to sell or a solicitation of any investment products or other financial product or service, an official confirmation of any transaction, or an official statement of Sender. Subject to applicable law, Sender may intercept, monitor, review and retain e-communications (EC) traveling through its networks/systems and may produce any such EC to regulators, law enforcement, in litigation and as required by law.
    The laws of the country of each sender/recipient may impact the handling of EC, and EC may be archived, supervised and produced in countries other than the country in which you are located. This message cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses.

    References to "Sender" are references to any subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. Securities and Insurance Products: * Are Not FDIC Insured * Are Not Bank Guaranteed * May Lose Value * Are Not a Bank Deposit * Are Not a Condition to Any Banking Service or Activity * Are Not Insured by Any Federal Government Agency. Attachments that are part of this EC may have additional important disclosures and disclaimers, which you should read. This message is subject to terms available at the following link:
    http://www.bankofamerica.com/emaildisclaimer. By messaging with Sender you consent to the foregoing.
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 5, 2011 at 4:31 pm
    Without the development phenomenon of Perl6, it's difficult to see how
    Moose and other improvements in perl 5 would have occurred.

    Despite the frustrations in following the growth of Pugs, then Rakudo,
    it's been fun, worthwhile and inspiring. A bit like life really. Do you
    really want it to end? But until it ends, how can you tell what sort of
    person you are, or what your achievements have been?

    I love Perl6. Rukudo is great - already.
    On 01/05/11 17:21, Wendell Hatcher wrote:
    There has been requests and talk of a production release for years now. Fancy titles released have come out monthly and quarterly for some time. At some point you have to say it simply isn't a good product or it is going to production how long are we going to hear excuses of my dog died past week and the production release is delayed for a year. Perl 6 at this point seems like a bad dream at best and there really isn't a need since moose and perl 5 have improved.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog


    On Jan 5, 2011, at 6:13 AM, "Anderson, Jim"wrote:
    Hear! Hear!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:15 AM
    To: Richard Hainsworth
    Cc: perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl

    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    <snip>
  • Wendell Hatcher at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:03 pm
    My point is make it a production release so peeps can push it to the powers that be in the corporate world. This has been the longest production build in test in the history of mankind. If this was a real world project it would have been dead sometime ago.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog

    On Jan 5, 2011, at 9:31 AM, Richard Hainsworth wrote:

    Without the development phenomenon of Perl6, it's difficult to see how Moose and other improvements in perl 5 would have occurred.

    Despite the frustrations in following the growth of Pugs, then Rakudo, it's been fun, worthwhile and inspiring. A bit like life really. Do you really want it to end? But until it ends, how can you tell what sort of person you are, or what your achievements have been?

    I love Perl6. Rukudo is great - already.
    On 01/05/11 17:21, Wendell Hatcher wrote:
    There has been requests and talk of a production release for years now. Fancy titles released have come out monthly and quarterly for some time. At some point you have to say it simply isn't a good product or it is going to production how long are we going to hear excuses of my dog died past week and the production release is delayed for a year. Perl 6 at this point seems like a bad dream at best and there really isn't a need since moose and perl 5 have improved.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog


    On Jan 5, 2011, at 6:13 AM, "Anderson, Jim"wrote:
    Hear! Hear!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:15 AM
    To: Richard Hainsworth
    Cc: perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl

    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    <snip>
  • Steffen Schwigon at Jan 7, 2011 at 1:25 am

    Wendell Hatcher writes:
    My point is make it a production release so peeps can push it to the
    powers that be in the corporate world.
    Valid point.
    Will http://packages.debian.org/experimental/rakudo be continued?

    This has been the longest production build in test in the history of
    mankind. If this was a real world project it would have been dead
    sometime ago.
    Don't worry too much.
    Python 3000 took about 8 years.
    (Though not sure about betas for testing.)

    Kind regards,
    Steffen
    --
    Steffen Schwigon <ss5@renormalist.net>
    Dresden Perl Mongers <http://dresden-pm.org/>
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 5, 2011 at 4:06 pm
    It seems you may have concluded something not intended.

    It is blindingly obvious that the majority of language users, people who
    do not have the resources (time, skill set, training) to test a language
    before using it, will only start to use a language when it is
    recommended by 'those in authority'. I would suggest that the
    'popularity' of a language is more a function of how well it is adopted
    by teachers of Computer Science at universities and colleges.

    I think the issue of a version number is irrelevant, given the vested
    interest of the developer to assign a number that will attract users, to
    such an extent that there is rule of thumb never to use the first
    release, but to wait until the version 'has matured'.

    Even if the developers of "Rakudo" release a V1.0, would that in itself
    lead to the acceptance of Perl6. I doubt it.

    A great deal that is needed to demonstrate the stability and strength of
    Perl6 for 'production' purposes has been included in the design from the
    very beginning, namely, a MASSIVE test suite. Perl6 also has
    documentation and specification and even teaching books, even before the
    language has completely matured.

    But for Rakudo to be widely adopted as Perl6, it seems to me there have
    to be stronger criteria than a version number of 1.0, and a test suite
    that is passed demonstrating adherence to a specification.

    For my part, I already use Rakudo for nearly all my programming needs -
    not that they are particularly burdensome or mission critical. The
    elegance of the language in itself is a powerful reason to use it. I am
    willing to deal with and work around the problems.

    Even in this thread higher standards have been alluded to. But what are
    they? How specifically can they be quantified?

    Speed, memory, ease of use?

    I suggest that Gabor's survey is one way of generating more input about
    what Rakudo has to be in order for it to be considered 'production' quality.

    Richard
    On 01/05/11 16:13, Anderson, Jim wrote:
    Hear! Hear!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Daniel Carrera
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:15 AM
    To: Richard Hainsworth
    Cc: perl6-users@perl.org
    Subject: Re: Production Release - was Re: Questions for Survey about Perl

    Although everything you said is technically true, I must point out
    that without a definitive release, potential users will tend to avoid
    the software. For people not involved in the process (i.e. 99.995% of
    Perl users) it is impossible to know when the software is good enough
    for use. You may talk about strange attractors and orbits, but I
    haven't the faintest clue how big the "orbit" of either Perl 6 or
    Rakudo is. Therefore, I cannot recommend it to other people, and I
    will hesitate to use it on anything that is very important.

    Daniel.


    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Richard Hainsworth
    wrote:
    So I'd change that to "after a production release of a Perl 6 compiler"
    Out of curiosity (because I think it will illuminate some of the
    difficulty
    Rakudo devs have in declaring something to be a "production release"):

    - What constitues a "production release"?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 4?
    - What was the first production release of Perl 5?
    - What was the first production release of Linux?
    - At what point was each of the above declared a "production release";
    was it concurrent with the release, or some time afterwards?

    Pm
    Larry responded to a post of mine asking about when Perl6 would be finished
    - the post was about the time that Pugs was still being actively developed.
    He pointed to the difference between the waterfall model and the strange
    attractor model for software development, perl6 progress being measured
    using the strange attractor model.

    Many of the questions and answers about a 'production release' imply the
    waterfall model. The concept here is that some one 'in authority' sets
    criteria which define 'finished'. Once the software / language / project
    fulfils the criteria - the edge of the waterfall - it is 'finished'. This
    has the advantage that everyone knows when to break out the champaign and
    have a party. It has the disadvantage that criteria of 'finished' can rarely
    be written in advance because to do so requires precognition, or knowledge
    of the future. Is there any sophisticated piece of software that is
    'perfect', has no bugs, is easy to use? Was MS Vista 'production' quality?
    Perl 5.0 was quickly replaced by Perl 5.004 (I think), which include
    references.

    The strange attractor model implies a process that is never ending, in that
    there will always be deviations from the solution 'orbit' or 'path'.
    However, there comes a time when for most normal purposes, the solution
    orbit will be so 'narrow' that the blips will be not be noticed for most
    situations.

    In this respect, qualitative statements such as 'when developers accept it'
    or 'providers such as ActiveState etc' bundle it are recognition of the
    strange attractor measure of progress of Perl6.

    Personally, I think that we are in sight of acceptance for Rakudo Star. This
    is an implementation of a subset of Perl6. I also believe that when Rakudo
    begins to implement Sets, Macros and deals with the problems posed by GUI,
    we will see further changes in the Perl6 specification. It is unlikely that
    such changes will 'break' Rakudo *.

    A question that would be useful to ask is:
    When will Rakudo Star be useful for some of your purposes?
    a) It is already useful;
    b) When running precompiled Rakudo * versions for a test suite of example
    programs is as fast as running Perl5 versions, on average.
    c) When running (from human readable text to final result) Rakudo * versions
    for a test suite of example programs is as fast as Perl5 versions, on
    average.
    d) When Rakudo * implements a larger subset of Perl6 and/or access
    well-written C/C++ libraries efficiently, presupposing (c).

    Another question would be what should be in the test suite of example
    programs?

    The example programs are not the test suite, which verifies consistency with
    the specification. The example programs should be designed - I suggest - to
    test speed and memory footprint. Ultimately, programmers are interested in
    solutions that are quick and use least hardware resources (the human
    resource of writing a simple and understandable program being the strongest
    part of Perl6, at least I think so).

  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 5, 2011 at 4:30 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 19:05 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    It seems you may have concluded something not intended.
    I was unsurprised at the reaction to your post.

    [snip]
    I think the issue of a version number is irrelevant, given the vested
    Clearly you were wrong.

    [snip]
    For my part, I already use Rakudo for nearly all my programming needs -
    not that they are particularly burdensome or mission critical. The
    elegance of the language in itself is a powerful reason to use it. I am
    willing to deal with and work around the problems.
    I have decided to adopt it for one project. If that is successful, I
    will switch from 5 to 6. If not, I'll have to consider python or ruby
    for the next one.
    Even in this thread higher standards have been alluded to. But what are
    they? How specifically can they be quantified?

    Speed, memory, ease of use?
    [snip]

    The fact that Rakudo comes with:

    a) a warning that it is slow
    b) a list of things which are *not* implemented

    Is a red flag. Similarly, Moose has warnings about start-up time so I
    don't use it as most of my perl is command-line scripts.

    I think it would be useful to freeze rakudo1 as soon as possible but it
    would be helpful to have some benchmarks so we know *how* slow. I
    started using perl4 after perl5 was already in use. I stuck with perl4
    until I got interested in OO.

    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    --
    --gh
  • Jan Ingvoldstad at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbert wrote:

    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question:
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?

    (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim
    that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.)
    --
    Jan
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 18:02 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbert wrote:

    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question:
    No. The subject changed ...
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?
    Marketing.
    (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim
    that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.)
    When go was announced a link to 'shootout' was in the announcement. I
    think I might have seen if before that but, if so, i'd forgotten so it
    was new to me at the time.

    What got me interested in perl6 was the april fools announcement about
    parrot ostensibly by Larry and Guido. Something like 10 years ago.

    I don't learn new programming languages unless I have something to do
    with it. I've been looking at what it would take to implement
    perl6/rakudo versions of the programs on 'shootout', and I think I can
    do it so I will try to get one or two of them running properly in the
    benchmarker.

    The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes
    bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5
    and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how
    to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all
    the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those.

    It'll take me a little while ...

    --
    --gh
  • Wendell Hatcher at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:25 pm
    I have to agree I don't think this is a serious project. In-fact at this point it seems like a bunch of friends working on a hobby in their basement.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog

    On Jan 5, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 18:02 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbert wrote:

    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question:
    No. The subject changed ...
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?
    Marketing.
    (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim
    that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.)
    When go was announced a link to 'shootout' was in the announcement. I
    think I might have seen if before that but, if so, i'd forgotten so it
    was new to me at the time.

    What got me interested in perl6 was the april fools announcement about
    parrot ostensibly by Larry and Guido. Something like 10 years ago.

    I don't learn new programming languages unless I have something to do
    with it. I've been looking at what it would take to implement
    perl6/rakudo versions of the programs on 'shootout', and I think I can
    do it so I will try to get one or two of them running properly in the
    benchmarker.

    The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes
    bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5
    and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how
    to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all
    the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those.

    It'll take me a little while ...

    --
    --gh
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 10:24 -0700, Wendell Hatcher wrote:
    I have to agree I don't think this is a serious project. In-fact at
    this point it seems like a bunch of friends working on a hobby in
    their basement.
    I'm not sure I said anything to agree with. You seem to misinterpret my
    intention.

    [snip]
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?
    Marketing.
    What I meant was that a "serious project" pays attention to marketing.
    The perl6 marketing effort is limited by resources more than go is.

    [snip]
    The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes
    bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5
    and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how
    to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all
    the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those.
    Here's what I will attempt to reproduce:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=perl&lang2=gcc

    I will start by downloading each program in C and perl (there seem to be
    several C versions -- and sometimes several perl versions available) and
    just running them appropriately.
    It'll take me a little while ...
    I'm fairly busy. I'll report _any_ progress back to the list ... if you
    don't hear from me by February 1st feel free to nag me. By 'progress',
    I mean something on github.

    --
    --gh
  • Guy Hulbert at Feb 2, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 12:39 -0500, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    I'm fairly busy. I'll report _any_ progress back to the list ... if you
    don't hear from me by February 1st feel free to nag me. By 'progress',
    I mean something on github.
    I expect to get started (as defined above) before the beginning of
    March. Nothing yet though.

    Richard Hainsworth kindly contacted me today and he's started to work on
    it as well.

    I spent some time looking at what's out there and it seems that I should
    post things on the perl6 wiki when they get going. I notice that some
    of the links are broken.

    I have one question but I'll post that separately.


    --
    --gh
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm
    'serious project' ???

    For some 'serious' people, Perl6 is a 'serious project'. Concepts of
    'serious' differ amongst reasonable people. Not a problem if your
    'serious' aint my 'serious'.

    As an aside, it took 358 years to prove Fermat's Last Theorem. Wiles -
    who proved it - shut himself away for the five years he spent creating
    the last part of the proof sequence. A number of historical figures have
    looked at the problem.

    That to my mind is a 'serious project' and serious people, and Wiles did
    indeed work on it in a 'basement' as a 'hobby'. It was an obsession and
    he was afraid of telling people what he was working on. But now we
    consider him a hero.

    Rakudo and Perl6 is being developed in the way it is for good and
    practical reasons.

    Richard

    On 01/05/11 20:24, Wendell Hatcher wrote:
    I have to agree I don't think this is a serious project. In-fact at this point it seems like a bunch of friends working on a hobby in their basement.

    Sent from my iPhone
    Wendell Hatcher
    Wendell_Hatcher@comcast.net
    303-520-7554
    Blogsite: http://thoughtsofaperlprogrammer.typepad.com/blog


    On Jan 5, 2011, at 10:15 AM, Guy Hulbertwrote:
    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 18:02 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbertwrote:
    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question:
    No. The subject changed ...
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?
    Marketing.
    (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim
    that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.)
    When go was announced a link to 'shootout' was in the announcement. I
    think I might have seen if before that but, if so, i'd forgotten so it
    was new to me at the time.

    What got me interested in perl6 was the april fools announcement about
    parrot ostensibly by Larry and Guido. Something like 10 years ago.

    I don't learn new programming languages unless I have something to do
    with it. I've been looking at what it would take to implement
    perl6/rakudo versions of the programs on 'shootout', and I think I can
    do it so I will try to get one or two of them running properly in the
    benchmarker.

    The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes
    bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5
    and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how
    to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all
    the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those.

    It'll take me a little while ...

    --
    --gh
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 5, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 20:51 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    'serious project' ???

    For some 'serious' people, Perl6 is a 'serious project'. Concepts of
    'serious' differ amongst reasonable people. Not a problem if your
    'serious' aint my 'serious'.
    For programming languages, there are rankings by number of developers.

    A Historical Example
    --------------------

    ==== ========
    Date Number
    ==== ========
    1979 1
    1980 16
    1981 38
    1982 85
    1983 ??+2
    1984 ??+50
    1985 500
    1986 2,000
    1987 4,000
    1988 15,000
    1989 50,000
    1990 150,000
    1991 400,000
    ==== ========

    Taken from the language author's "Design and Evolution" book. Chapter 7.

    My wife was sent on a course to learn this language in the early 1990s.

    So you have about 10 years to get started.

    --
    --gh
  • Richard Hainsworth at Jan 5, 2011 at 6:04 pm
    Guy,

    Your idea is actually exactly what I was suggesting when I said 'example
    programs'.

    I think there are/were perl6 versions for the shootout problems. I am
    not sure what happened to them.

    Getting benchmarking will be interesting.

    Regards,
    Richard
    On 01/05/11 20:15, Guy Hulbert wrote:
    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 18:02 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad wrote:
    On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 17:30, Guy Hulbertwrote:
    Rakudo is not listed here:
    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
    Fixing that is something I'd like to help with.

    Note that go was listed *before* it was announced. That tells me that
    the go authors are, in some small way, more serious about their project
    "succeeding" than perl6.

    So your suggestion to Gabor is to add the question:
    No. The subject changed ...
    Do you think that NOT listing Rakudo at shootout.alioth.debian.org means
    Rakudo is not a serious project?

    Or did you have some other point?
    Marketing.
    (This is the first time I've seen shootout.alioth.debian.org, I won't claim
    that it's not a serious shootout just because of that, BTW.)
    When go was announced a link to 'shootout' was in the announcement. I
    think I might have seen if before that but, if so, i'd forgotten so it
    was new to me at the time.

    What got me interested in perl6 was the april fools announcement about
    parrot ostensibly by Larry and Guido. Something like 10 years ago.

    I don't learn new programming languages unless I have something to do
    with it. I've been looking at what it would take to implement
    perl6/rakudo versions of the programs on 'shootout', and I think I can
    do it so I will try to get one or two of them running properly in the
    benchmarker.

    The benchmarking program can be downloaded (which I've done) and comes
    bundled with 2 or 3 python programs, one of which requires python 2.5
    and I'm still on python 2.4 (don't ask). However I've figured out how
    to see the source for example programs, so I'll manually download all
    the perl5 and C ones and try to get the benchmarker going for those.

    It'll take me a little while ...
  • Guy Hulbert at Jan 5, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    On Wed, 2011-05-01 at 21:04 +0300, Richard Hainsworth wrote:
    Guy,

    Your idea is actually exactly what I was suggesting when I said
    'example
    programs'.
    What convinced me that rakudo is worth pursuing was the 3-line dice
    class with a roll() method. What I do now is 'use fields' and build
    from templates. I understood fields via 'perldoc -m' in far less time
    than I've spent reading through Moose docs.
    I think there are/were perl6 versions for the shootout problems. I am
    not sure what happened to them.
    I doubt they were posted on alioth. I think that a pre-requisite is:

    apt-get install rakudo

    on ubuntu.
    Getting benchmarking will be interesting.
    I hope I have time. I'm planning to compile and run one C and one perl
    program today and see if the outputs are the same (that's my
    understanding, so far, of the requirements for alioth).
    Regards,
    Richard
    --
    --gh
  • Gabor Szabo at Jan 5, 2011 at 7:51 pm
    Let me just give a probably totally irrelevant comment here.
    I think most of the open source projects have been in use by
    many people in production environment before the project had
    a "production release". I guess there are still places that think
    Linux is not good for their production environment.

    Probably it is true for all the projects Pm mentioned but a lot of others
    as well. I remember I was using svn from v0.32 or so. In most technologies
    I am a very late "early adopter".

    I believe Rakudo and Perl 6 will see a gradual increase in use as
    they improve, get faster, have more modules etc. It will probably happen a
    long time before any official 1.0 release will be seen. (if ever)

    It is very frustrating that the progress is so slow and I can't yet
    use it for my daily work.
    It would make both my programming life and my "marketing" life a lot
    easier if I could use Rakudo at my clients.
    But can I seriously complain about the slow progress?
    Have I made a lot (or any) effort to help Rakudo?
    I wish I had some time contributing to the effort.

    Gabor
    http://szabgab.com/
  • Stefan Hornburg (Racke) at Jan 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    On 01/05/2011 02:51 PM, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    Let me just give a probably totally irrelevant comment here.
    I think most of the open source projects have been in use by
    many people in production environment before the project had
    a "production release". I guess there are still places that think
    Linux is not good for their production environment.

    Probably it is true for all the projects Pm mentioned but a lot of others
    as well. I remember I was using svn from v0.32 or so. In most technologies
    I am a very late "early adopter".

    I believe Rakudo and Perl 6 will see a gradual increase in use as
    they improve, get faster, have more modules etc. It will probably happen a
    long time before any official 1.0 release will be seen. (if ever)

    It is very frustrating that the progress is so slow and I can't yet
    use it for my daily work.
    It would make both my programming life and my "marketing" life a lot
    easier if I could use Rakudo at my clients.
    But can I seriously complain about the slow progress?
    Have I made a lot (or any) effort to help Rakudo?
    I wish I had some time contributing to the effort.

    Gabor
    http://szabgab.com/
    Maybe we should focus on porting Perl 5 modules on hackathons around
    the events and blog about the process.

    Not that I did any serious shot at Perl 6 :-!

    Regards
    Racke

    --
    LinuXia Systems => http://www.linuxia.de/
    Expert Interchange Consulting and System Administration
    ICDEVGROUP => http://www.icdevgroup.org/
    Interchange Development Team
  • Daniel Carrera at Jan 6, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    I would be very interested to see something that allowed Rakudo to
    talk to Fortran 95.

    I am going to use Fortran 95 for my thesis work, and maybe I could
    write a module to give Rakudo a basic array language. Nothing fancy
    like MATLAB, NumPy or PDL, but enough to try out algorithms and
    prototype ideas. As it is, I'll probably use PDL or NumPy for that
    purpose.

    Daniel.


    On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Stefan Hornburg (Racke)
    wrote:
    On 01/05/2011 02:51 PM, Gabor Szabo wrote:

    Let me just give a probably totally irrelevant comment here.
    I think most of the open source projects have been in use by
    many people in production environment before the project had
    a "production release". I guess there are still places that think
    Linux is not good for their production environment.

    Probably it is true for all the projects Pm mentioned but a lot of others
    as well. I remember I was using svn from v0.32 or so. In most technologies
    I am a very late "early adopter".

    I believe Rakudo and Perl 6 will see a gradual increase in use as
    they improve, get faster, have more modules etc. It will probably happen a
    long time before any official 1.0 release will be seen. (if ever)

    It is very frustrating that the progress is so slow and I can't yet
    use it for my daily work.
    It would make both my programming life and my "marketing" life a lot
    easier if I could use Rakudo at my clients.
    But can I seriously complain about the slow progress?
    Have I made a lot (or any) effort to help Rakudo?
    I wish I had some time contributing to the effort.

    Gabor
    http://szabgab.com/
    Maybe we should focus on porting Perl 5 modules on hackathons around
    the events and blog about the process.

    Not that I did any serious shot at Perl 6 :-!

    Regards
    Racke

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