FAQ
I'm researching an article on Perl poetry and feeling a bit out of my
depth, not being a poet myself.

http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html describes Sharon Hopkins as
"the reigning Perl Poetry Pumpqueen" after the publication of her 1992
definitive work "Camels and Needles: Computer Poetry meets the Perl
Programming Language". This is an interesting paper and I'm curious
to know how she came to write it. Does anyone know what provoked her
into writing this paper? How/when did she meet Larry? Did she ever
work with him? Apart from her wonderful poetry, what other stuff has
she done with Perl? Is she still writing Perl and poetry today?

Was the writing of poetry ever a design consideration in any version
of Perl?

/-\


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  • Randal L. Schwartz at Apr 21, 2005 at 4:08 pm
    "Andrew" == Andrew Savige writes:
    Andrew> http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html describes Sharon Hopkins as
    Andrew> "the reigning Perl Poetry Pumpqueen" after the publication of her 1992
    Andrew> definitive work "Camels and Needles: Computer Poetry meets the Perl
    Andrew> Programming Language". This is an interesting paper and I'm curious
    Andrew> to know how she came to write it. Does anyone know what provoked her
    Andrew> into writing this paper? How/when did she meet Larry? Did she ever
    Andrew> work with him?

    She worked with him (next cubicle over, I believe) when he was at JPL
    (lwall@jpl-devvax.jpl.gov).

    Andrew> Apart from her wonderful poetry, what other stuff has
    Andrew> she done with Perl? Is she still writing Perl and poetry today?

    Andrew> Was the writing of poetry ever a design consideration in any version
    Andrew> of Perl?

    Well, it's been said that barewords in Perl3 were the result of wanting
    a simple way to write:

    @days = (mon,tue,wed,thu,fri);

    although that fails for:

    @months = (jan,feb,mar,apr,may,jun,jul,aug,sep,oct,nov,dec);

    (Do you know why? :-)

    But also barewords were added so that Sharon could write better poetry.
    Hence, it is also called "poetry mode" in some of my earlier writings.

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 21, 2005 at 9:30 pm

    --- "Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
    She worked with him (next cubicle over, I believe) when he was at JPL
    (lwall@jpl-devvax.jpl.gov).
    Were Sharon Hopkins and Larry Wall the first two Perl poets?
    Did Randal Schwartz or Tom Christiansen ever write a Perl poem?
    Does anyone know what city Larry and Sharon worked in when at JPL?
    I just want to be able to state that Perl poetry started in the city
    of ????? in the year of 1991 (is that the right year?).

    /-\


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  • Dave Cross at Apr 21, 2005 at 9:44 pm

    On Fri, Apr 22, 2005 at 07:30:16AM +1000, Andrew Savige wrote:

    Does anyone know what city Larry and Sharon worked in when at JPL?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPL

    --
    Stab a sorry heart
    With your favourite finger
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 25, 2005 at 9:47 pm

    --- "Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
    She worked with him (next cubicle over, I believe) when he was at JPL
    (lwall@jpl-devvax.jpl.gov).
    Thanks.
    I used poetic license to interpret the events at JPL 15 years ago. :-)

    http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=451207

    If I made any historical errors, please let me know.

    /-\


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  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 26, 2005 at 5:11 am

    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 0:47, Andrew Savige wrote:
    http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=451207

    If I made any historical errors, please let me know.
    In a culture where you give credit to someone who has an idea for a
    module and doesn't actually write it, I find it suspect that nowhere in
    any of the documents you have written do you bother to cite the Perl
    Timeline which it is very likely you and many others have used but
    never bothered to credit. Skud also has this problem sometimes.

    And you still haven't removed the offending 'CPAN cabal' phrase in part
    I. Maybe I should just make t-shirts for us with the 'TheCabal' to
    match the rest of the 'The' people. I do have the internal list email
    exchange which might also change the nice fiction of 'TheDamian'
    'placating' 'the CPAN cabal'.

    e.
  • David H. Adler at Apr 26, 2005 at 5:21 am

    On Tue, Apr 26, 2005 at 08:11:25AM +0300, Elaine Ashton wrote:

    And you still haven't removed the offending 'CPAN cabal' phrase in part
    I. Maybe I should just make t-shirts for us with the 'TheCabal' to
    match the rest of the 'The' people. I do have the internal list email
    exchange which might also change the nice fiction of 'TheDamian'
    'placating' 'the CPAN cabal'.
    Frankly, one can never have enough t-shirts. :-)

    dha
    --
    David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
    everything drives me crazy. because EVERYTHING involves morons at some
    level. - sungo, in #perl
  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 26, 2005 at 5:42 am

    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 8:21, David H. Adler wrote:
    Frankly, one can never have enough t-shirts. :-)
    You know, that is the one common thread amongst all the geeks I have
    known...a closet filled with t-shirts. Sadly, the nuns beat collarless
    shirts out of us at an early age so I really can't wear them,
    especially in the land of mostly winter.

    Should we make one for you that reads "TheDavid"? :)

    e.
  • David H. Adler at Apr 26, 2005 at 7:40 am

    On Tue, Apr 26, 2005 at 08:42:08AM +0300, Elaine Ashton wrote:
    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 8:21, David H. Adler wrote:

    Frankly, one can never have enough t-shirts. :-)
    You know, that is the one common thread amongst all the geeks I have
    known...a closet filled with t-shirts. Sadly, the nuns beat collarless
    shirts out of us at an early age so I really can't wear them,
    especially in the land of mostly winter.
    Actually, although I have a jillion of them, I don't get to wear them
    that often. Mostly when I'm out of town for geek gatherings, oddly
    enough...
    Should we make one for you that reads "TheDavid"? :)
    Considering how many of them there are, that would be an honor. :-)

    dha
    --
    David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
    Shut up, listen, and dance. - Madness
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 26, 2005 at 12:59 pm

    --- Elaine Ashton wrote:
    In a culture where you give credit to someone who has an idea for a
    module and doesn't actually write it
    What are you referring to here? TheDavid and Semi::Semicolons?
    I find it suspect that nowhere in any of the documents you have
    written do you bother to cite the Perl Timeline which it is very
    likely you and many others have used but never bothered to credit.
    Not guilty, your honour. There are 5 links to the excellent

    http://history.perl.org/PerlTimeline.html

    as follows:

    Part II (1 link, "Did Larry Ever Write a Japh?" Section)
    Part III (1 link, Response to Jenda comment)
    Part IV (1 link, "References" section)
    Part V (2 links, "History" and "References" sections)

    I just added an extra link to the References section of part V
    (which was missing due to an oversight).
    And you still haven't removed the offending 'CPAN cabal' phrase in part
    I. Maybe I should just make t-shirts for us with the 'TheCabal' to
    match the rest of the 'The' people. I do have the internal list email
    exchange which might also change the nice fiction of 'TheDamian'
    'placating' 'the CPAN cabal'.
    Is it that you object to the word "cabal" and want it replaced by another
    word, such as "folks"? Please let me know which word you want me to use.

    I was not trying to be funny when I used TheDamian; I used it simply as a
    Perl Monks courtesy because that is his nick on that web site:

    http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=107600

    Having done that, I did find it amusing and extended it to "The Larry",
    "The Schwartz", "The Hall" and so on in other places.

    /-\


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  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 26, 2005 at 2:25 pm

    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 15:58, Andrew Savige wrote:

    --- Elaine Ashton wrote:
    In a culture where you give credit to someone who has an idea for a
    module and doesn't actually write it
    What are you referring to here? TheDavid and Semi::Semicolons?
    Not specifically, no, but over the years it's hard to miss the geek
    equivalent to peeing your name in the snow. Certainly not the first.
    Not guilty, your honour. There are 5 links to the excellent
    Well, this was pointed out to me and, aside from the labour of love it
    once was, it has become a bit musty. However, putting a link to
    something vs. listing it in the references is quite different as you
    seem to have grasped.
    Is it that you object to the word "cabal" and want it replaced by
    another
    word, such as "folks"? Please let me know which word you want me to
    use.
    Perhaps it is the sentiment. Cults and the Catholic church have
    cabals..well, and so does perl, but CPAN is not it. Pick a word, but
    pick one that bears the sentiment that is occasionally but reluctantly
    attentive. People are always complaining about some imagined secret
    society that either doesn't do enough to punt bad modules or
    discourages modules or resists change or has a bad web page or
    whatever. Perhaps doing nothing and saying nothing is all it takes to
    be a cabal. :) The closest to such a thing we've ever gotten was what
    was supposed to be a low-key meeting in London a year and a half ago to
    discuss module metadata which received a lot more attention and such
    cabalistic characterizations than was warranted. Those who were there
    were doing stuff of interest with direct application to CPAN, some of
    whom heard about the meeting and asked to come and did. I ruffle at the
    cabal label because it's not cute, because it's not funny and because I
    think that it discourages people who might have something to offer,
    possibly even more than a cranky old bitch like me.
    Having done that, I did find it amusing and extended it to "The Larry",
    "The Schwartz", "The Hall" and so on in other places.
    Well, if people want to refer to themselves as such, that's their
    problem. When you do it, in the words of an esteemed old timer who,
    quite sadly, doesn't hang around much anymore, it makes you sound like
    a starfucker/ fanboy whether or not you actually are. These boys have
    more than enough ego already and it doesn't make it very readable for
    those not part of the cult of personality and hep to all the "The"s. I
    have nicknames for most, too...some of them are not printable. :)

    e.
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 26, 2005 at 1:18 pm

    --- Elaine Ashton wrote:
    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 8:21, David H. Adler wrote:

    Frankly, one can never have enough t-shirts. :-)
    You know, that is the one common thread amongst all the geeks I have
    known...a closet filled with t-shirts. Sadly, the nuns beat collarless
    shirts out of us at an early age so I really can't wear them,
    especially in the land of mostly winter.

    Should we make one for you that reads "TheDavid"? :)
    I always thought it was "the lovely David Adler esq.". :-)

    http://www.mail-archive.com/london.pm@london.pm.org/msg09055.html

    Having never been to a Perl conference, I don't understand the T-shirt
    joke above. Is there a specific T-shirt being referred to? Or is it
    just that T-shirts in general are popular among geeks?

    (Thanks to e, I know about the "Schwern is my bitch" T-shirt incident).

    /-\


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  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 26, 2005 at 2:25 pm

    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 16:18, Andrew Savige wrote:
    I always thought it was "the lovely David Adler esq.". :-)
    I would never insult dha by insinuating that he is a lawyer. :)
    Having never been to a Perl conference, I don't understand the T-shirt
    joke above. Is there a specific T-shirt being referred to? Or is it
    just that T-shirts in general are popular among geeks?
    No, we were just making fun of the "The". Well, at least I was. :)
    (Thanks to e, I know about the "Schwern is my bitch" T-shirt incident).
    Actually, it was "Perl is my bitch" which mutated into its present
    form. Look back in the old London.pm archives for a walk down irony
    lane...

    e.
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 28, 2005 at 10:38 am

    --- Elaine Ashton wrote:
    On 26 Apr, 2005, at 15:58, Andrew Savige wrote:
    Is it that you object to the word "cabal" and want it replaced by
    another
    word, such as "folks"? Please let me know which word you want me to
    use.
    Perhaps it is the sentiment. Cults and the Catholic church have
    cabals..well, and so does perl, but CPAN is not it. Pick a word, but
    pick one that bears the sentiment that is occasionally but reluctantly
    attentive. People are always complaining about some imagined secret
    society that either doesn't do enough to punt bad modules or
    discourages modules or resists change or has a bad web page or
    whatever. Perhaps doing nothing and saying nothing is all it takes to
    be a cabal. :)
    For now, I changed all occurrences of "CPAN cabal" to "CPAN bigwigs".
    I've already considered:

    chieftains
    camarilla
    crew
    cronies
    junto
    kinfolk
    horde
    fraternity

    Suggestions welcome. :-)

    /-\


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  • Jarkko Hietaniemi at Apr 28, 2005 at 10:51 am

    For now, I changed all occurrences of "CPAN cabal" to "CPAN bigwigs".
    I've already considered:

    chieftains
    camarilla
    crew
    cronies
    junto
    kinfolk
    horde
    fraternity

    Suggestions welcome. :-)
    fight club
    /-\


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    --
    Jarkko Hietaniemi <jhi@iki.fi> http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ "There is this special
    biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." -- Jack Cohen
  • Kurt Starsinic at Apr 28, 2005 at 2:11 pm

    On 4/28/05, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
    For now, I changed all occurrences of "CPAN cabal" to "CPAN bigwigs".
    I've already considered:

    chieftains
    camarilla
    crew
    cronies
    junto
    kinfolk
    horde
    fraternity

    Suggestions welcome. :-)
    fight club
    You just broke the first rule of Pfight Club.

    Bad hacker! No Pepsi!

    - Kurt
  • Jarkko Hietaniemi at Apr 28, 2005 at 4:37 pm

    Kurt Starsinic wrote:
    On 4/28/05, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:

    For now, I changed all occurrences of "CPAN cabal" to "CPAN bigwigs".
    I've already considered:

    chieftains
    camarilla
    crew
    cronies
    junto
    kinfolk
    horde
    fraternity

    Suggestions welcome. :-)
    fight club

    You just broke the first rule of Pfight Club.
    That's because I am (want to be) a prebel.
    Bad hacker! No Pepsi!

    - Kurt

    --
    Jarkko Hietaniemi <jhi@iki.fi> http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ "There is this special
    biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." -- Jack Cohen
  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 29, 2005 at 4:54 pm

    On 28 Apr, 2005, at 19:37, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
    That's because I am (want to be) a prebel.
    No, you're just soft in the head, marrying me is certainly proof of
    that.

    In spite of how much I'd just love to go fight club on the cult of
    personality, it is perhaps not the right phrase.

    Why not just refer to us as "Them" or "They" as it would fit in with
    the "The" theme.

    When history reads more like an epitaph, it's important not to use too
    much hyperbole as it accentuates the scent of death by showering the
    corpse with roses.

    e.
  • David H. Adler at Apr 29, 2005 at 6:50 pm

    On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 07:53:34PM +0300, Elaine Ashton wrote:

    Why not just refer to us as "Them" or "They" as it would fit in with
    the "The" theme.
    There's still a perception issue. Do you want people to think you're a
    branch of the infamous They Council or that you're a bunch of Giant
    Radioactic Mutant Ants?

    :-)

    --
    David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
    At the very least, if there is no law, rule or regulation against using
    the public airwaves to knowingly present news that is false and
    distorted, it's time the FCC or the Congress write one. - Steve Wilson
  • Jarkko Hietaniemi at Apr 29, 2005 at 6:57 pm

    David H. Adler wrote:
    On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 07:53:34PM +0300, Elaine Ashton wrote:

    Why not just refer to us as "Them" or "They" as it would fit in with
    the "The" theme.

    There's still a perception issue. Do you want people to think you're a
    branch of the infamous They Council or that you're a bunch of Giant
    Radioactic Mutant Ants?
    I, for one, welcome our new giant radioactic mutant ant overloads.
    Ehmmm, lords.

    --
    Jarkko Hietaniemi <jhi@iki.fi> http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ "There is this special
    biologist word we use for 'stable'. It is 'dead'." -- Jack Cohen
  • Elaine Ashton at Apr 29, 2005 at 4:43 pm

    On 28 Apr, 2005, at 17:10, Kurt Starsinic wrote:
    You just broke the first rule of Pfight Club.

    Bad hacker! No Pepsi!
    You know, I'm glad I can count on other dorks in the club to write the
    same thing I was going to while I was away from my email for a day.

    We're so old, we're still in the coke generation, not the pepsi. :)

    e.
  • Andrew Savige at Apr 28, 2005 at 11:58 am

    --- Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
    For now, I changed all occurrences of "CPAN cabal" to "CPAN bigwigs".
    I've already considered:

    chieftains
    camarilla
    crew
    cronies
    junto
    kinfolk
    horde
    fraternity

    Suggestions welcome. :-)
    fight club
    I was thinking of "top bananas" but now you mention "fight club" and since
    I get the impression e likes dogs, its synonym "top dogs" may be better.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=top%20banana

    /-\


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