FAQ
Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere? I just
noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10

Search Discussions

  • Jan Dubois at Aug 13, 2010 at 5:12 pm
    It is kind of pointless to keep track of it, as virtually *everyone* is using Perl somewhere for something.



    A few years ago somebody analyzed the download logs for ActivePerl with reverse DNS lookup and matched it against the Fortune 1000
    companies domain names. I don’t remember the exact number but around 90% of them had downloaded ActivePerl at least once from an IP
    address owned by those companies.



    Cheers,

    -Jan



    From: Joel Limardo
    Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 9:55 AM
    To: advocacy@perl.org
    Subject: Sony support uses Perl



    Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere? I just noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:



    http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
  • Joel Limardo at Aug 13, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    I disagree that your example discounts my point -- downloading Perl is not
    the same thing as building your online support system with it and not only
    leaving the .pl extension on your pages but leaving /perl/ in the URI. The
    latter publicly says, 'hey, by the way...we use Perl and we rely on it for
    something that we consider to be fairly important' versus the fore which
    could mean virtually anything (evaluation, installation scripts, etc.).

    I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people and
    companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they be clear
    that they use it and rely upon it? Isn't it in the interests of Perl
    advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just used but that it is
    relied upon and can handle more system administration tasks?

    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Jan Dubois <jand@activestate.com>
    Date: Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:11 PM
    Subject: RE: Sony support uses Perl
    To: Joel Limardo <joel.limardo@forwardphase.com>, advocacy@perl.org


    It is kind of pointless to keep track of it, as virtually **everyone** is
    using Perl somewhere for something.



    A few years ago somebody analyzed the download logs for ActivePerl with
    reverse DNS lookup and matched it against the Fortune 1000 companies domain
    names. I don’t remember the exact number but around 90% of them had
    downloaded ActivePerl at least once from an IP address owned by those
    companies.



    Cheers,

    -Jan



    *From:* Joel Limardo
    *Sent:* Friday, August 13, 2010 9:55 AM
    *To:* advocacy@perl.org
    *Subject:* Sony support uses Perl



    Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere? I just
    noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:



    http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
  • Andy Lester at Aug 13, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

    I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people and companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they be clear that they use it and rely upon it? Isn't it in the interests of Perl advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just used but that it is relied upon and can handle more system administration tasks?
    If you think it's important, then do something about it. Make a blog post about it. Start a website about it. Write an article for me to run on Perlbuzz.

    We can talk about whether it's important or not on this list all day, but until someone does something about it, it's just talk.

    xoxo,
    Andy

    --
    Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.theworkinggeek.com => AIM:petdance
  • Joel Limardo at Aug 13, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    I like PerlBuzz alot. I think it is a good looking and exceedingly relevant
    site. I don't think, however, that it -- or building sites like it -- makes
    for a strong, centralized Perl advocacy initiative. I think PerlBuzz's
    strength is that it does what it says -- I get news and information about
    Perl that is current. Sites like Perlmonks similarly do something extremely
    well, but that thing is not actually advocacy although it is clearly a
    component.

    No, I think advocacy starts right here (
    http://www.perl.org/advocacy/whyperl.html):

    "...a responsible IT Manager should proceed to select a language or
    programming platform based on things that actually matter like the task at
    hand, the budget, the current skills of the target coders, the current
    environment, etc"

    This, I think, is at the very heart of programming language advocacy. The
    difference is mainly in the target audience. If I'm an IT manager I have a
    budget and higher-ups who watch how I am spending the company's money. I
    have to show them that I can and will make the right decisions when it comes
    to language and platform among (many) other things for projects. What do I
    have to show these higher ups to defend my position that their million
    dollar project should be principally developed in Perl? PerlBuzz?
    Perlmonks? No. I need something else -- something specifically built to
    help me achieve this goal.

    You've suggested that I build something, but I think that will be ultimately
    ineffective. I learned this little tidbit in a public communications class
    I took in college years ago: any (marketing) message not repeated is not
    worth saying. Advocacy, let's face it, shares a lot with marketing. When
    companies want to sell something they develop a marketing campaign and then
    everybody in the company -- from sales to customer service representatives
    -- learns the new lingo, adopts the new images, and gets the message out
    there. If advocacy is to be effective it must be centralized, like
    marketing, so that everyone in the community resounds its latest message(s).

    I'm posting this here to illicit responses and ideas. Take a look at this
    Google Apps for Business website (
    http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html). Compare it to the
    whyperl.html page above. Which is more convincing to you if you are the IT
    manager? Why?
    On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Andy Lester wrote:

    On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

    I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people and
    companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they be clear
    that they use it and rely upon it? Isn't it in the interests of Perl
    advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just used but that it is
    relied upon and can handle more system administration tasks?

    If you think it's important, then do something about it. Make a blog post
    about it. Start a website about it. Write an article for me to run on
    Perlbuzz.

    We can talk about whether it's important or not on this list all day, but
    until someone does something about it, it's just talk.

    xoxo,
    Andy

    --
    Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.theworkinggeek.com => AIM:petdance



  • Andy Lester at Aug 13, 2010 at 6:10 pm

    On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

    You've suggested that I build something, but I think that will be ultimately ineffective.
    OK, so what do you want to have happen?

    --
    Andy Lester => andy@petdance.com => www.theworkinggeek.com => AIM:petdance
  • Jan Dubois at Aug 13, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Joel Limardo wrote:
    I disagree that your example discounts my point -- downloading Perl is
    not the same thing as building your online support system with it and
    not only leaving the .pl extension on your pages but leaving /perl/ in
    the URI.  The latter publicly says, 'hey, by the way...we use Perl and
    we rely on it for something that we consider to be fairly important'
    versus the fore which could mean virtually anything (evaluation,
    installation scripts, etc.).
    Sorry, but I disagree with your additional points as well:

    1) Leaving "/perl/" and ".pl" in the URL does *not* mean: "Hey, we are
    using Perl to do this and are proud of it." It rather means that
    they didn't bother to think about providing meaningful URLs for
    their application. Exposing implementation details in an API is
    a flaw, not a feature.

    Of course this may be all completely justifiable, given that the
    system may be just a quick hack by their support group. It is
    however not a testament that Perl encourages people to build
    well-designed web applications.

    2) Why would 90% of those companies download Perl for evaluation,
    and then not use it? Do you expect it to routinely fail in
    evaluation as being unfit for actual use?

    3) Why are system administration tasks (installation scripts?)
    inferior to online support systems?
    I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people
    and companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they
    be clear that they use it and rely upon it?  Isn't it in the
    interests of Perl advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just
    used but that it is relied upon and can handle more system
    administration tasks?
    Any organization of significant size uses all of Perl, Python, Ruby,
    Java and lots of other things. It is nice to have stories about
    extra-ordinary uses of languages (e.g. how a Tcl script remote-controls
    the Mars Rover), but a list of companies that use any particular
    mainstream technology for their bread-and-butter work isn't that
    compelling IMO. Especially if we don't have any additional insight
    into the scope of the application, and the challenges that had
    to be overcome.

    So background stories of big applications written (mostly) in Perl
    would make good advocacy. Crawling the web for URLs that match
    m,/perl/, or m/\.pl$/ not so much.

    Cheers,
    -Jan
  • Joel Limardo at Aug 16, 2010 at 10:17 pm
    "... Exposing implementation details in an API is a flaw, not a
    feature."

    I'm only partially convinced with you here as too many API references would
    look like noise. I do, however, get a warm a fuzzy feeling that the
    technology is used widely when I see lots of 'powered by' logos or websites
    that are dedicated to telling you how many companies use a given technology.
    Here's a post by Bjørn Hansen <http://askask.com/> regarding a Powered by
    Perl logo: http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/2005/03/11/powered.html, which
    exists but I have no metrics as to whether it is in wide use or not.
    Anybody know where the metrics are located?
    "It is however not a testament that Perl encourages people to
    build well-designed web applications..."

    Yes, but then what is? Let's think creatively here. Let's assume that
    putting /perl/ in your URL is not the greatest way to promote Perl. Give me
    three other suggestions that I could give to a team that is relying heavily
    on Perl and would like to help other companies that are 'on the fence' with
    regard to using it.
    "Why would 90% of those companies download Perl for evaluation, and then
    not use it?"

    Here, of course, I have to question the integrity of the data. If I get a
    number, let's say the number 60, and this number represents the number of
    people who downloaded an online tool that does a wide variety of things, can
    I reliably report that 60 people are 'users'? No. User A may have
    downloaded the tool three times. User B may have downloaded the tool to
    test it and see what it does. User C may have some automated script that
    downloads the tool every 30 days. Ultimately the download statistics are
    murky and more information is needed.

    The thing to keep in mind here is the audience. You are an IT manager. Are
    download statistics going to be compelling to you? I think they offer
    supporting information, but in themselves are not that informative for the
    reasons I've mentioned.
    "Why are system administration tasks (installation scripts?) inferior to
    online support systems?"

    For quite a few reasons that I can think of -- a) security is typically much
    more of a concern for a system that is intended to be run by strangers;
    scripts are typically run in-house by privileged users only b)
    administration scripts are run and developed by a few people whereas many
    more eyes/hands/minds touch web utilities c) the list goes on. I think the
    most compelling reason is COST. The system administration script is
    considered by IT management to be free whereas the online support system
    involves inherent costs of maintenance, development, deployment, etc.
    "Any organization of significant size uses all of Perl, Python,
    Ruby, Java and lots of other things."

    I work with very large organizations and I know precisely what they tell me
    when I start talking about three of the languages you mentioned (Perl,
    Python, and Ruby) -- no, no, and no. Java is the only one that is accepted
    and I suspect it is not because it is the best but rather that Sun and other
    companies that heavily use Java have done a very good job of advocating for
    it. I would like to see Perl do the same thing.
    "It is nice to have stories about extra-ordinary uses of languages (e.g.
    how a Tcl script remote-controls the Mars Rover)..."

    I'm for whatever works. If we study the opinions of developers and find that
    they are impressed by Perl being used in the next generation of deep space
    exploration tools then promote that. If that doesn't work, it is time to
    think of something else. Like anything, the opinions, tastes, and thought
    processes of people shift over time. The goal of advocacy is to map those
    opinions such that your message will become associated with things people
    like and avoid things that cause rejection. (This problem is compounded
    with computer languages because we actually have to deliver the goods...but
    that is for another discussion.) If I blindfolded you and handed you three
    pieces of cheese your individual tastes -- cultural, sociological, etc. --
    would kick in to tell me which type you liked and which made you want to
    throw up. Advocacy (like marketing) should take this into consideration when
    formulating its core message. So, before saying that /perl/ in the URL has
    no effect, we should run a study to determine whether it has an effect on
    developers and IT managers.
    "OK, so what do you want to have happen?"
    Before I can answer that I need to know how Perl advocacy is currently being
    done. I'm big on studying a problem and using actual data to drive results.
    I know there is a problem with Perl advocacy because I spent about an hour
    reading almost all of the posted responses to a recent Slashdot article
    about a Rakudo Star release. I would say the responses were mostly (> 90%)
    negative.

    So, how is Perl advocacy done? Is there an actual advocacy organization
    with yearly goals, some people who officially head up the organization,
    etc.? What are the 2010 goals? 2011? Is there a central Perl portal for
    'all things advocacy' which contains the current meeting minutes of this
    organization?
    "https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl ... but
    I don't think there is a real added value in such list."

    Thank you for this post. There is an excellent book I recommend that
    everyone who is even remotely interested in Perl advocacy read -- The
    Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell (
    http://www.amazon.com/Tipping-Point-Little-Things-Difference/dp/0316346624).
    In the book there is this story about another guy who rode around
    immediately prior the British invasion on April 18, 1775 but rousted very
    few colonists to action. Paul Revere took a different route to bring people
    to arms against the British and history tells us he was incredibly
    successful. Gladwell analyzes the differences between their routes and
    methods and finds no significant difference. However, when you study WHO
    these men were we start to understand why Revere's ride was a success and
    the other fellow's fell flat. The difference was in the men themselves.
    Revere was well known and popular. His character beamed and people trusted
    him. The other fellow did not possess these qualities, so people were less
    inclined to leave their homes and risk death.

    The URL you posted is a bit like the other fellow's ride -- it is on an
    obscure site, not centrally supported (as far as I can tell), and the
    message is therefore not as effective as it could be.




    On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Jan Dubois wrote:

    Joel Limardo wrote:
    I disagree that your example discounts my point -- downloading Perl is
    not the same thing as building your online support system with it and
    not only leaving the .pl extension on your pages but leaving /perl/ in
    the URI. The latter publicly says, 'hey, by the way...we use Perl and
    we rely on it for something that we consider to be fairly important'
    versus the fore which could mean virtually anything (evaluation,
    installation scripts, etc.).
    Sorry, but I disagree with your additional points as well:

    1) Leaving "/perl/" and ".pl" in the URL does *not* mean: "Hey, we are
    using Perl to do this and are proud of it." It rather means that
    they didn't bother to think about providing meaningful URLs for
    their application. Exposing implementation details in an API is
    a flaw, not a feature.

    Of course this may be all completely justifiable, given that the
    system may be just a quick hack by their support group. It is
    however not a testament that Perl encourages people to build
    well-designed web applications.

    2) Why would 90% of those companies download Perl for evaluation,
    and then not use it? Do you expect it to routinely fail in
    evaluation as being unfit for actual use?

    3) Why are system administration tasks (installation scripts?)
    inferior to online support systems?
    I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people
    and companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they
    be clear that they use it and rely upon it? Isn't it in the
    interests of Perl advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just
    used but that it is relied upon and can handle more system
    administration tasks?
    Any organization of significant size uses all of Perl, Python, Ruby,
    Java and lots of other things. It is nice to have stories about
    extra-ordinary uses of languages (e.g. how a Tcl script remote-controls
    the Mars Rover), but a list of companies that use any particular
    mainstream technology for their bread-and-butter work isn't that
    compelling IMO. Especially if we don't have any additional insight
    into the scope of the application, and the challenges that had
    to be overcome.

    So background stories of big applications written (mostly) in Perl
    would make good advocacy. Crawling the web for URLs that match
    m,/perl/, or m/\.pl$/ not so much.

    Cheers,
    -Jan
  • Gabor Szabo at Aug 17, 2010 at 5:20 am

    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Joel Limardo wrote:
    So, how is Perl advocacy done?  Is there an actual advocacy organization
    with yearly goals, some people who officially head up the organization,
    etc.?  What are the 2010 goals? 2011?  Is there a central Perl portal for
    'all things advocacy' which contains the current meeting minutes of this
    organization?
    "https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl ... but
    I don't think there is a real added value in such list."
    Thank you for this post.  There is an excellent book I recommend that
    everyone who is even remotely interested in Perl advocacy read -- The
    Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell
    (http://www.amazon.com/Tipping-Point-Little-Things-Difference/dp/0316346624).
    In the book there is this story about another guy who rode around
    immediately prior the British invasion on April 18, 1775 but rousted very
    few colonists to action.  Paul Revere took a different route to bring people
    to arms against the British and history tells us he was incredibly
    successful.  Gladwell analyzes the differences between their routes and
    methods and finds no significant difference. However, when you study WHO
    these men were we start to understand why Revere's ride was a success and
    the other fellow's fell flat.  The difference was in the men themselves.
    Revere was well known and popular. His character beamed and people trusted
    him.  The other fellow did not possess these qualities, so people were less
    inclined to leave their homes and risk death.
    The URL you posted is a bit like the other fellow's ride -- it is on an
    obscure site, not centrally supported (as far as I can tell), and the
    message is therefore not as effective as it could be.
    That is the official TPF Wiki page.
    Go, ask the people in Marketing Committee of The Perl Foundation.


    BTW have you been reading the various Perl feeds recently?
    E.g. http://ironman.enlightenedperl.org/
    There are a few people writing about promotion and marketing and the
    similar subjects.

    Gabor
    http://szabgab.com/
  • Gabor Szabo at Aug 15, 2010 at 5:33 am

    On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:
    Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere?  I just
    noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:
    http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
    There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

    https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

    but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed out
    almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

    I think it would be a better form to gather companies that support
    Perl in one form or other.
    e.g. by letting and encouraging its employers to work on perl core or
    CPAN modules
    during work hours or by sponsoring various Perl events or by
    sponsoring other aspects of the Perl community.


    regards
    Gabor
  • Denny at Aug 17, 2010 at 9:27 am

    On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 08:33 +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

    https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

    but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed out
    almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.
    I think there would be value in compiling a list of companies that are
    'proud to use perl' (to borrow a website name). These companies are
    actually willing to put their name next to Perl, rather than tucking it
    away in their back-end support utilities, and that's worth far more to
    us than a list of companies who don't even acknowledge the existence of
    Perl (other than accidentally, in a URL for instance).

    The London.pm list is here:
    http://london.pm.org/advocacy/

    A global version might be a good resource for this list to work on. I'd
    be happy to host one on the Perl Is Alive server, but obviously it would
    have more credibility if it were hosted on perl.org (or .com?)

    Regards,
    Denny
  • Gabor Szabo at Aug 17, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Denny wrote:
    On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 08:33 +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote:
    There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

    https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

    but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed out
    almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.
    I think there would be value in compiling a list of companies that are
    'proud to use perl' (to borrow a website name).  These companies are
    actually willing to put their name next to Perl, rather than tucking it
    away in their back-end support utilities, and that's worth far more to
    us than a list of companies who don't even acknowledge the existence of
    Perl (other than accidentally, in a URL for instance).

    The London.pm list is here:
    http://london.pm.org/advocacy/

    A global version might be a good resource for this list to work on.  I'd
    be happy to host one on the Perl Is Alive server, but obviously it would
    have more credibility if it were hosted on perl.org (or .com?)
    I agree but I'd like to turn the whole thing around.
    Instead of us asking permission from the companies to list them I'd
    like to reach the point where they will pay in order to appear on the
    list.
    I believe we can do that by creating a sponsorship system or member
    system for The Perl Foundation and list the sponsor/memeber companies
    on the web site of TPF.

    That's where my grant was heading
    http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/06/hague-grant-application-perl-e.html
    but based on the feedback on that site and based on my discussion with
    Karen there are quite a few people who either don't want TPF to do
    that or think that I am not the right person to do this or have other
    doubts about the project.

    Gabor
  • Shlomi Fish at Mar 8, 2011 at 9:47 am
    Hi Gabor,
    On Sunday 15 Aug 2010 08:33:09 Gabor Szabo wrote:
    On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Joel Limardo

    wrote:
    Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere? I
    just noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:
    http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
    There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

    https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

    but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed
    out almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

    I think it would be a better form to gather companies that support
    Perl in one form or other.
    e.g. by letting and encouraging its employers to work on perl core or
    CPAN modules
    during work hours or by sponsoring various Perl events or by
    sponsoring other aspects of the Perl community.
    I agree. I think that a list of all companies that use Perl and do not admit
    that would first-of-all be a problem to compile, and secondly, may be
    defamation. I think it may be the "NASA uses Python" vs. "NASA uses COBOL"
    syndrome - NASA (or whoever) uses a lot of stuff (including COBOL and Fortran
    on old VAX machines), but is not going to boast about using, say, COBOL,
    because people hate it.

    What we can do is try to make Perl "hip" again (like Su-Shee noted in her
    post) by building a certain unique and non-defensive Perl image, that will
    make a lot of companies admit that they are using Perl.

    One of the problems with Perl is that back in the old WWW fever, when early
    versions of Perl 5 were practically the only sane thing to use, people wrote a
    lot of Perl 4-like code in Perl 5 due to ignorance (I know I did.). Many of
    these ancient "CGI" scripts matured into CPAN modules or alternatively some
    popular FOSS or commercial or popular Internet-facing web-sites. However,
    those that extensively use Perl are now more well-entrenched sites like
    Amazon.com , livejournal.com , typepad , etc. which are very popular but not
    considered "web 2.0" (bleh!) or hip enough. (And based on a vague feeling, I
    think Google is starting to become well-entrenched too.). Fashions come and
    later become well-entrenched and everyone still "does" them, but no one is
    proud of it because they are no longer "hip".

    If we can make Modern Perl 5 appeal again to younger audience, perhaps by
    building an elitist image of a quirky language for "rockstars" who can
    appreciate a steep learning curve, but followed by great expressivity and the
    power and robustness of CPAN afterwards, and also a vibrant community, we
    maybe can accelerate the Perl renaissance, and get more people to admit that
    they use Perl.

    For a while it seems that Vim was losing esteem among the hipsters in favour
    of TextMate and similar editors, while now it may seem that it has become the
    new "it" editor among them again, so technologies *can* make a perceptive
    comeback, although many of them don't.

    Regards,

    Shlomi Fish

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
    http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ways_to_do_it.html

    The American Lottery - all you need is a dollar and a dream. We will take the
    dollar, but you can keep the dream.

    Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
  • Joel Limardo at Mar 8, 2011 at 1:41 pm
    It is (kind of) nice to see that we have not totally dropped this
    subject. First off, defamation is defined as making untrue statements
    that injure someone's character or otherwise by making public facts
    about another that, although true, are not in the public interest (for
    example, if a person had a disease). Virtually any information that
    can be easily obtained by the public cannot be said to be protected --
    for instance, if your webserver returns pages that say 'made with
    Perl' it cannot be considered defamatory to aggregate and then
    retransmit this information to third parties. That would be as absurd
    as suing someone for publishing a list of public accounting firms that
    can be easily found in the phone book.
    That being said, on certain way to avoid all legal challenges
    would be, as you may have guessed, to obtain written permission
    beforehand.
    The goal of marketing is in part to create awareness. If you have
    never heard of widget X nor of it's features and reliability you are
    unlikely to use it. Human beings love to ride the bandwagon, so
    sometimes telling them that their favorite sports figure drinks cherry
    Coke before every game will boost sales. It is a bit of a crap shoot
    to figure out what works but I can assure you that doing nothing us
    like trying to start a car with a potato battery.
    On 3/8/11, Shlomi Fish wrote:
    Hi Gabor,
    On Sunday 15 Aug 2010 08:33:09 Gabor Szabo wrote:
    On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Joel Limardo

    wrote:
    Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere? I
    just noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:
    http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
    There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

    https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

    but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed
    out almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

    I think it would be a better form to gather companies that support
    Perl in one form or other.
    e.g. by letting and encouraging its employers to work on perl core or
    CPAN modules
    during work hours or by sponsoring various Perl events or by
    sponsoring other aspects of the Perl community.
    I agree. I think that a list of all companies that use Perl and do not admit
    that would first-of-all be a problem to compile, and secondly, may be
    defamation. I think it may be the "NASA uses Python" vs. "NASA uses COBOL"
    syndrome - NASA (or whoever) uses a lot of stuff (including COBOL and
    Fortran
    on old VAX machines), but is not going to boast about using, say, COBOL,
    because people hate it.

    What we can do is try to make Perl "hip" again (like Su-Shee noted in her
    post) by building a certain unique and non-defensive Perl image, that will
    make a lot of companies admit that they are using Perl.

    One of the problems with Perl is that back in the old WWW fever, when early
    versions of Perl 5 were practically the only sane thing to use, people wrote
    a
    lot of Perl 4-like code in Perl 5 due to ignorance (I know I did.). Many of
    these ancient "CGI" scripts matured into CPAN modules or alternatively some
    popular FOSS or commercial or popular Internet-facing web-sites. However,
    those that extensively use Perl are now more well-entrenched sites like
    Amazon.com , livejournal.com , typepad , etc. which are very popular but not
    considered "web 2.0" (bleh!) or hip enough. (And based on a vague feeling, I
    think Google is starting to become well-entrenched too.). Fashions come and
    later become well-entrenched and everyone still "does" them, but no one is
    proud of it because they are no longer "hip".

    If we can make Modern Perl 5 appeal again to younger audience, perhaps by
    building an elitist image of a quirky language for "rockstars" who can
    appreciate a steep learning curve, but followed by great expressivity and
    the
    power and robustness of CPAN afterwards, and also a vibrant community, we
    maybe can accelerate the Perl renaissance, and get more people to admit that
    they use Perl.

    For a while it seems that Vim was losing esteem among the hipsters in favour
    of TextMate and similar editors, while now it may seem that it has become
    the
    new "it" editor among them again, so technologies *can* make a perceptive
    comeback, although many of them don't.

    Regards,

    Shlomi Fish

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
    http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ways_to_do_it.html

    The American Lottery - all you need is a dollar and a dream. We will take
    the
    dollar, but you can keep the dream.

    Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

    --
    Sincerely,


    Joel Limardo
    Chief Software Engineer
    ForwardPhase Technologies, LLC
    401 N. Michigan Avenue
    Suite 1200-10
    Chicago, IL 60611
    www.forwardphase.com
    joel.limardo@forwardphase.com
    LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/joellimardo
    Twitter: http://twitter.com/joellimardo
    Fax: 815-346-9495
    Ph : 877-321-5467
  • Shlomi Fish at Mar 10, 2011 at 11:00 am
    Hi Joel,
    On Tuesday 08 Mar 2011 15:41:26 Joel Limardo wrote:
    It is (kind of) nice to see that we have not totally dropped this
    subject. First off, defamation is defined as making untrue statements
    that injure someone's character or otherwise by making public facts
    about another that, although true, are not in the public interest (for
    example, if a person had a disease).
    Maybe. However, someone once told me after I said on a post to a public
    mailing list that someone else told me on the phone that something about his
    system was mismanaged, that spreading such rumours in public is considered
    defamation.

    Defamation or not, I think we should get Sony (or whoever)'s approval to say
    they are using Perl, whether or not they do.
    Virtually any information that
    can be easily obtained by the public cannot be said to be protected --
    for instance, if your webserver returns pages that say 'made with
    Perl' it cannot be considered defamatory to aggregate and then
    retransmit this information to third parties. That would be as absurd
    as suing someone for publishing a list of public accounting firms that
    can be easily found in the phone book. I see.
    That being said, on certain way to avoid all legal challenges
    would be, as you may have guessed, to obtain written permission
    beforehand. Right.
    The goal of marketing is in part to create awareness. If you have
    never heard of widget X nor of it's features and reliability you are
    unlikely to use it. Human beings love to ride the bandwagon, so
    sometimes telling them that their favorite sports figure drinks cherry
    Coke before every game will boost sales. It is a bit of a crap shoot
    to figure out what works but I can assure you that doing nothing is
    like trying to start a car with a potato battery.
    Yes, I've discussed my approach to marketing with some people on IRC
    (including Su-Shee) and they told me we should instead work on preparing some
    good web-based CMSes for Perl so people can install instead of WordPress or
    possibly Drupal or whatever, because Perl 5 has very little usable things at
    the moment. Personally, I think that the advocacy I was told that the advocacy
    I've done on http://perl-begin.org/ is pretty good.

    Regards,

    Shlomi Fish

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
    Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan

    You can never really appreciate The Gilmore Girls until you've watched it in
    the original Klingon.

    Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
  • Joel Limardo at Mar 11, 2011 at 2:16 pm
    I like sites like the beginner site you mentioned and sites like
    perlmonks, but these sites all share something in common -- they are
    directed at the needs of the (prospective|current) developer. In
    today's businesses there are other individuals who decide upon a
    language to do development -- analysts, CTOs, CEOs, etc. These people
    are not interested in how elegant perl's map function is or whether
    you can do obscure things with it. Their needs are pretty
    straightforward like a) what types of problems is it best suited for
    (think Java which consistently marketed itself as a C++ replacement
    early on) b) what is it's development cycle/structure (think Apache
    Foundation) c) and, as I've been saying, who is achieving/surpassing
    ROI expectations by implementing in Perl as opposed to available
    alternatives.

    If you don't believe that these things are important then make a point
    of going to your next company/client outing and try talking to higher
    level IT decision makers. I think you will see that concerns like
    these have greater precedence to them than whether CMS xyz uses Perl.
    In fact, perhaps it would be best to create a questionnaire for these
    folks and tabulate responses.

    As developers we tend to believe that when things aren't working we
    need to just do more development. This is like the horse in Animal
    Farm who used to say, 'I will work harder.' it is time to look beyond
    that. Don't guess at what will improve the Perl community, let's take
    a step back and lend a watchful eye to what has worked for others and
    what the people want.
    On 3/10/11, Shlomi Fish wrote:
    Hi Joel,
    On Tuesday 08 Mar 2011 15:41:26 Joel Limardo wrote:
    It is (kind of) nice to see that we have not totally dropped this
    subject. First off, defamation is defined as making untrue statements
    that injure someone's character or otherwise by making public facts
    about another that, although true, are not in the public interest (for
    example, if a person had a disease).
    Maybe. However, someone once told me after I said on a post to a public
    mailing list that someone else told me on the phone that something about his
    system was mismanaged, that spreading such rumours in public is considered
    defamation.

    Defamation or not, I think we should get Sony (or whoever)'s approval to say
    they are using Perl, whether or not they do.
    Virtually any information that
    can be easily obtained by the public cannot be said to be protected --
    for instance, if your webserver returns pages that say 'made with
    Perl' it cannot be considered defamatory to aggregate and then
    retransmit this information to third parties. That would be as absurd
    as suing someone for publishing a list of public accounting firms that
    can be easily found in the phone book. I see.
    That being said, on certain way to avoid all legal challenges
    would be, as you may have guessed, to obtain written permission
    beforehand. Right.
    The goal of marketing is in part to create awareness. If you have
    never heard of widget X nor of it's features and reliability you are
    unlikely to use it. Human beings love to ride the bandwagon, so
    sometimes telling them that their favorite sports figure drinks cherry
    Coke before every game will boost sales. It is a bit of a crap shoot
    to figure out what works but I can assure you that doing nothing is
    like trying to start a car with a potato battery.
    Yes, I've discussed my approach to marketing with some people on IRC
    (including Su-Shee) and they told me we should instead work on preparing
    some
    good web-based CMSes for Perl so people can install instead of WordPress or
    possibly Drupal or whatever, because Perl 5 has very little usable things at
    the moment. Personally, I think that the advocacy I was told that the
    advocacy
    I've done on http://perl-begin.org/ is pretty good.

    Regards,

    Shlomi Fish

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
    Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan

    You can never really appreciate The Gilmore Girls until you've watched it in
    the original Klingon.

    Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

    --
    Sincerely,


    Joel Limardo
    Chief Software Engineer
    ForwardPhase Technologies, LLC
    401 N. Michigan Avenue
    Suite 1200-10
    Chicago, IL 60611
    www.forwardphase.com
    joel.limardo@forwardphase.com
    LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/joellimardo
    Twitter: http://twitter.com/joellimardo
    Fax: 815-346-9495
    Ph : 877-321-5467

Related Discussions

Discussion Navigation
viewthread | post
Discussion Overview
groupadvocacy @
categoriesperl
postedAug 13, '10 at 4:55p
activeMar 11, '11 at 2:16p
posts16
users6
websiteperl.org

People

Translate

site design / logo © 2021 Grokbase