FAQ
A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com>
.

A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
opening up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the
community are , w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the
application would be related to that / any refactorings as necessary as
seen by the team or thoughts in general to the same.

Search Discussions

  • Ryan Rawson at Jan 20, 2010 at 11:35 pm
    Wasnt there a bigtable patent announced some time ago? So far? Nothing.

    I'm not even giving this a second thought.
    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:
    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com>
    .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
    general to the same.

  • Stack at Jan 20, 2010 at 11:45 pm
    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?

    St.Ack

    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
    general to the same.

  • Kay Kay at Jan 21, 2010 at 2:25 am

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
    general to the same.


  • Bruce Williams at Jan 21, 2010 at 6:55 am
    Several corporations have patents they have said will be used to
    protect Linux, IBM and Sun come to mind. I don't know if this should
    be considered a threat right away. I know Google asked me, as a non
    employee, to maintain and update thier hadoop educational download to
    avoid patent issues of having their own employees to see or touch the
    code.

    Bruce
    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Kay Kay wrote:
    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:

    I've been following the thread.  I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the community
    might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com>  .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
    ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
    in
    general to the same.




    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot
  • Mathias Herberts at Jan 21, 2010 at 7:16 am
    Google itself is using Hadoop in its University program, see
    http://code.google.com/edu/parallel/mapreduce-tutorial.html, and
    encouraging universities such as Berkeley to expose students to MR in
    their CS curriculum.

    It even has a biblio entry of 'Open Source MapReduce:
    http://lucene.apache.org/hadoop/'.

    Given the hard time Google has recruiting people with skills that
    match their infrastructure, sueing around Hadoop would be a very
    unclever move as no one would then be able to train him/herself on
    those types of technologies.

    Let's face it, infrastructure and use of technologies such as MR give
    Google a headstart, not MR per se.

    Just my 2ct worth.

    Mathias.
  • Bruce Williams at Jan 21, 2010 at 7:21 am
    Yeah, that was the program they wanted me to support. It started at U
    Wash and grew from there, to Stanford, then Berkley and took off.

    Bruce

    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Mathias Herberts
    wrote:
    Google itself is using Hadoop in its University program, see
    http://code.google.com/edu/parallel/mapreduce-tutorial.html, and
    encouraging universities such as Berkeley to expose students to MR in
    their CS curriculum.

    It even has a biblio entry of 'Open Source MapReduce:
    http://lucene.apache.org/hadoop/'.

    Given the hard time Google has recruiting people with skills that
    match their infrastructure, sueing around Hadoop would be a very
    unclever move as no one would then be able to train him/herself on
    those types of technologies.

    Let's face it, infrastructure and use of technologies such as MR give
    Google a headstart, not MR per se.

    Just my 2ct worth.

    Mathias.


    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot
  • Laurence Hubert at Jan 21, 2010 at 11:34 am
    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
    business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something is
    done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
    because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to
    hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
    supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
    possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system,
    then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
    community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
    intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
    produce the next generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Kay Kay" <kaykay.unique@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
    ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
    in
    general to the same.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00
  • Bruce Williams at Jan 21, 2010 at 11:54 am
    The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
    Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
    you can "differentiate" that situation away.

    Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
    the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.

    Bruce

    On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
    wrote:
    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
    business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something is
    done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
    because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to
    hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
    supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
    possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system,
    then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
    community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
    intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
    produce the next generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <kaykay.unique@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:

    I've been following the thread.  I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -


    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com>  .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
    ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
    in
    general to the same.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/1
    20:18:00


    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot
  • Laurence Hubert at Jan 21, 2010 at 12:17 pm
    Then that's may be a possible path to go... identify all prior art (what
    Google cannot indeed claim) and make it public on the Hadoop/HBase pages so
    that companies can feel confident taking the Hadoop/HBase root... Basically
    *publicly* invalidate this patent with all reasonable arguments :-)
    Typically if the system design is "what a person skilled in the art" would
    have produced, this is NOT an invention...

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Bruce Williams" <williams.bruce@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:53 PM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections


    The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
    Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
    you can "differentiate" that situation away.

    Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
    the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.

    Bruce

    On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
    wrote:
    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
    business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something
    is
    done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
    because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat
    to
    hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
    supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
    possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google
    system,
    then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
    community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
    intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
    produce the next generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <kaykay.unique@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:

    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing
    list -


    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
    are
    ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
    in
    general to the same.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00


    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00
  • Bruce Williams at Jan 21, 2010 at 12:58 pm
    Like I said earlier, the fact that "Linux" patents are held by IBM and
    Sun makes people more secure, not less, in using Linux. Real facts,
    from the real world.

    People worry about patent trolls and shell companies like SCO, not the
    PR nightmare someone like Google would get if they went out and tried
    to bully a popular Open Source project. Making Hadoop popular and
    loved is the best defence.

    Bruce

    On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:17 AM, Laurence Hubert
    wrote:
    Then that's may be a possible path to go... identify all prior art (what
    Google cannot indeed claim) and make it public on the Hadoop/HBase pages so
    that companies can feel confident taking the Hadoop/HBase root... Basically
    *publicly* invalidate this patent with all reasonable arguments :-)
    Typically if the system design is "what a person skilled in the art" would
    have produced, this is NOT an invention...

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Williams"
    <williams.bruce@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:53 PM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections


    The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
    Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
    you can "differentiate" that situation away.

    Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
    the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.

    Bruce

    On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
    wrote:
    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
    business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something
    is
    done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
    because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat
    to
    hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
    supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
    possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google
    system,
    then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
    community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
    intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
    produce the next generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <kaykay.unique@gmail.com>
    To: <hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org>
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:

    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kaywrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list
    -



    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
    are
    ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
    in
    general to the same.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00


    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/1
    20:18:00


    --

    “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
    and the end of all our discovering will be
    to return to the place where we began
    and to know it for the first time.”
    -T.S. Eliot
  • Andrew Purtell at Jan 21, 2010 at 5:28 pm

    Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there is no
    chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
    success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in the
    team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next generation...
    It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone -- which
    has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given that,
    and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of the
    technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far beyond any
    reasonable definition of "academic".

    I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would be in
    direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should they
    go after the ASF in any way.

    Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case, that
    HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the mapreduce
    integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
    functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact on
    HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.

    - Andy

    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Laurence Hubert <Laurence.Hubert@free.fr>
    To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
    Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If Hadoop/HBase
    is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business then I
    agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to evaluate
    the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies businesses or
    products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done, companies
    cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too much
    of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was becoming
    popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing development
    resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was actually
    *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should differentiate.
    Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there is no
    chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
    success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in the
    team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
    To:
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
    general to the same.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00
  • Laurence Hubert at Jan 22, 2010 at 8:30 am
    Hi Andry, Bruce,


    It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone --
    which
    has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given
    that,
    and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of
    the
    technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far
    beyond any
    reasonable definition of "academic".
    Absolutely true. I am the proof of this :-) It turns out that I am a BIG FAN
    of both
    Hadoop and Hbase and I have a true willingness to use them in a real
    business ... and
    as soon as this business develops commit development resources to it. So I
    am not
    questioning the value of the work because I know this is great work and I
    know the
    adoption is going to be huge.

    I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would
    be in
    direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should
    they
    go after the ASF in any way.
    I tend to agree (and with Bruce as well). Still from a business perspective
    this is a risk
    and I hate risks :-(
    Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case,
    that
    HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the
    mapreduce
    integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
    functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact
    on
    HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.
    Unfortunately when you use HBase this is because you have to process large
    amount of data
    which means that by nature many of the HBase adopters are ALSO hadoop
    adopters.
    But thank you for your comment because somehow it helps understand the
    degree at which
    we would be impacted if Google wanted to enforce its intellectual property.

    Thanks Andy and Bruce, somehow the discussion helped.

    Laurence
    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Laurence Hubert <Laurence.Hubert@free.fr>
    To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
    Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase
    is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business
    then I
    agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate
    the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or
    products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done,
    companies
    cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too
    much
    of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was
    becoming
    popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing
    development
    resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually
    *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate.
    Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there
    is no
    chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
    success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in
    the
    team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next
    generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
    To:
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
    I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing
    list -

    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
    are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or
    thoughts in
    general to the same.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00







    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2636 - Date: 01/21/10
    08:34:00
  • Ryan Rawson at Jan 22, 2010 at 8:36 am
    Software patents is dangerous territory for developers. Typically
    advice I've been given is "ignorance is the best defense" - when you
    are in a patent fight, claiming ignorance of the prior art is a
    defensible position. Digging deeply into the mapreduce patent and
    fully investigating the limits of their prior art is an exercise I
    will leave to patent lawyers and other people who are not actively
    engaged in development. And that is my stand, and why I am
    indifferent.

    Besides which, most software patents tend to have a fairly narrow
    scope, and small changes can avoid the wrath.

    -ryan

    On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Laurence Hubert
    wrote:
    Hi Andry, Bruce,


    It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone --
    which
    has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given
    that,
    and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of
    the
    technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far
    beyond any
    reasonable definition of "academic".
    Absolutely true. I am the proof of this :-) It turns out that I am a BIG FAN
    of both
    Hadoop and Hbase and I have a true willingness to use them in a real
    business ... and
    as soon as this business develops commit development resources to it. So I
    am not
    questioning the value of the work because I know this is great work and I
    know the
    adoption is going to be huge.

    I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would
    be in
    direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should
    they
    go after the ASF in any way.
    I tend to agree (and with Bruce as well). Still from a business perspective
    this is a risk
    and I hate risks :-(
    Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case,
    that
    HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the
    mapreduce
    integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
    functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact
    on
    HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.
    Unfortunately when you use HBase this is because you have to process large
    amount of data
    which means that by nature many of the HBase adopters are ALSO hadoop
    adopters.
    But thank you for your comment because somehow it helps understand the
    degree at which
    we would be impacted if Google wanted to enforce its intellectual property.

    Thanks Andy and Bruce, somehow the discussion helped.

    Laurence
    ----- Original Message ----

    From: Laurence Hubert <Laurence.Hubert@free.fr>
    To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
    Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    Dear all,

    I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
    Hadoop/HBase
    is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business
    then I
    agree there is no threat to the community...
    but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
    evaluate
    the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
    businesses or
    products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done,
    companies
    cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too
    much
    of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was
    becoming
    popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing
    development
    resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...

    In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
    actually
    *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
    differentiate.
    Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there
    is no
    chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
    success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in
    the
    team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next
    generation...

    My two cents,
    Laurence Hubert



    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
    To:
    Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
    Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections

    On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
    I've been following the thread.  I would tend to side with the general
    tenor
    that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
    likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
    dimension.

    That was my general idea as well.
    Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
    Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
    community might be w.r.t. this.
    St.Ack


    On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay  wrote:

    A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing >>>
    list -


    http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
    2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com>  .

    A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just >>>
    opening
    up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
    are ,
    w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be >>>
    related
    to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or >>>
    thoughts in
    general to the same.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
    20:18:00







    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
    Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
    Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2636 - Date: 01/21/1
    08:34:00

Related Discussions

Discussion Navigation
viewthread | post
Discussion Overview
groupdev @
categorieshbase, hadoop
postedJan 20, '10 at 11:31p
activeJan 22, '10 at 8:36a
posts14
users7
websitehbase.apache.org

People

Translate

site design / logo © 2022 Grokbase