FAQ
I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is
going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of
Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source
Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and
another way to get at multi-threading.

These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
stuff?

---
Jonny

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  • Bradley Meck at Oct 4, 2012 at 6:17 pm
    As long as NPM works, since it uses Node's module loader apparently, I am
    sure some horrible but interesting bridges will be crossed on the NPM
    registry. Looking forward to it.
    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:16:24 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is
    going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of
    Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source
    Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and
    another way to get at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:


    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?

    ---
    Jonny
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  • Thomas Shinnick at Oct 4, 2012 at 7:02 pm
    So, they've finally figured out *how* to do it...
    "Write once, run anywhere" with Javascript
    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:16:58 PM UTC-5, Bradley Meck wrote:

    As long as NPM works, since it uses Node's module loader apparently, I am
    sure some horrible but interesting bridges will be crossed on the NPM
    registry. Looking forward to it.
    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:16:24 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is
    going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of
    Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source
    Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and
    another way to get at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:


    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other
    implementations to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like
    the Node port is trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible
    and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?

    ---
    Jonny
    --
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  • Isaac Schlueter at Oct 4, 2012 at 6:17 pm
    Nope. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

    The great thing about an MIT license is that they really don't have to
    bug us about this if they don't feel like it :)


    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Jonathan Buchanan
    wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?

    ---
    Jonny

    --
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  • Ben Noordhuis at Oct 5, 2012 at 2:13 am

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been consulted. :-)

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  • Jonathan Buchanan at Oct 5, 2012 at 3:52 am
    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my
    first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way,
    waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain
    at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message
    dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which
    already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite
    dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper."
    Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to
    scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what
    it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by
    myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch
    of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds
    like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details
    (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk
    where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for
    build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have
    people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's
    standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API
    implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as
    https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as
    someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just
    is a bit of a heads-up.

    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python
    almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost
    exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free
    alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having
    attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and
    stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

    Thanks,
    Jonny.
    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis wrote:

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.
    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    - >
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other
    implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been
    consulted. :-)
    --
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  • Rick Waldron at Oct 5, 2012 at 4:07 am
    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".

    -Rick

    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way, waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper." Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just is a bit of a heads-up.

    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

    Thanks,
    Jonny.
    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis (mailto:info@bnoordhuis.nl)> wrote:
    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    (mailto:jonathan.buchanan@gmail.com)> wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html >
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been consulted. :-)
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  • Mark Hahn at Oct 5, 2012 at 4:19 am
    the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with
    Sun.

    How did sun get it?
    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Rick Waldron wrote:

    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark
    "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript
    implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".

    -Rick

    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my
    first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way,
    waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain
    at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message
    dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which
    already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite
    dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper."
    Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to
    scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what
    it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by
    myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch
    of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds
    like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details
    (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk
    where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for
    build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have
    people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's
    standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API
    implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as
    https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as
    someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just
    is a bit of a heads-up.

    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python
    almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost
    exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free
    alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having
    attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and
    stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

    Thanks,
    Jonny.

    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis wrote:

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.
    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    - >
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other
    implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been
    consulted. :-)


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  • Arunoda Susiripala at Oct 5, 2012 at 4:48 am
    I think they took it from Netscape. May be Netscape sold it when they are
    winding up.
    On Friday, October 5, 2012, Mark Hahn wrote:
    the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along
    with Sun.
    How did sun get it?

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Rick Waldron wrote:

    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark
    "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript
    implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".
    -Rick

    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this
    (my first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way,
    waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain
    at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message
    dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which
    already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite
    dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper."
    Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to
    scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what
    it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by
    myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.
    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a
    bunch of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it
    sounds like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific
    details (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed
    talk where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general
    and for build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that
    Oracle have people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation
    than what's standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API
    implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as
    https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as
    someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just
    is a bit of a heads-up.
    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python
    almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost
    exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free
    alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having
    attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and
    stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)
    Thanks,
    Jonny.

    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis wrote:

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called
    Nashorn.
    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going
    to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar
    even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar,
    but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to
    get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other
    implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's
    --
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  • Rick Waldron at Oct 5, 2012 at 5:11 am
    I'm not sure how it transferred, but when the dust settled (over 12 years ago) Sun owned the Java and JavaScript trademarks.

    -Rick

    On Friday, October 5, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Arunoda Susiripala wrote:

    I think they took it from Netscape. May be Netscape sold it when they are winding up.
    On Friday, October 5, 2012, Mark Hahn (mailto:mark@hahnca.com)> wrote:
    the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun.
    How did sun get it?

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Rick Waldron (mailto:waldron.rick@gmail.com)> wrote:

    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".
    -Rick

    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 at 11:52 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way, waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper." Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just is a bit of a heads-up.

    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

    Thanks,
    Jonny.

    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis (mailto:info@bnoordhuis.nl)> wrote:

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    (mailto:jonathan.buchanan@gmail.com)> wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's
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  • Thomas Shinnick at Oct 5, 2012 at 5:07 am
    JenkinsScript ? (Oracle will like that I'm sure - they liked 'Jenkins' the
    last time too)
    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:07:42 PM UTC-5, Rick Waldron wrote:

    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark
    "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript
    implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".

    -Rick
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  • Karl Tiedt at Oct 5, 2012 at 5:15 am
    Oracle decided to try and fight Googles use of Davlik on Android...
    and because it was a sudden change in the stance that Sun took on the
    whole situation, the judge basically laughed it off. I would suspect
    something similar would happen with JavaScript.

    -Karl Tiedt

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  • Dan Bornstein at Oct 5, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 10:15 PM, Karl Tiedt wrote:
    Oracle decided to try and fight Googles use of [Dalvik] on Android...
    and because it was a sudden change in the stance that Sun took on the
    whole situation, the judge basically laughed it off. I would suspect
    something similar would happen with JavaScript.
    I hesitate to say this, lest I sound like an actual expert (and also
    because it's very nearly off-topic), but I don't think what you say
    here really captures how it all went down. If (any of) you want to dig
    into details, Groklaw's <http://www.groklaw.net/> coverage of the case
    is both extensive and (in my opinion) objective.

    Cheers,

    -dan

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  • Scott González at Oct 5, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Rick Waldron wrote:

    So, is no one else nervous about the fact that Oracle owns the trademark
    "JavaScript", acquired along with Sun. If they develop a JavaScript
    implementation it gives them grounds to "defend the mark".
    You can't really defend a trademark after not defending it for over a
    decade. Even with a registered trademark, you need to be able to show a
    history of brand protection, which is clearly not possible for JavaScript.

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  • Cpurdy at Oct 20, 2012 at 12:15 pm
    For over a decade now, the JVM has supported the most (by a large margin)
    languages of any multi-language runtime. I remember there were well over a
    hundred different languages implemented on the JVM, including all the
    common ones and a few you've probably never heard of. (See
    http://www.is-research.de/info/vmlanguages/ for page after page of language
    implementations on the JVM.)

    The amazing thing -- in the case of dynamic languages -- is that these
    languages were running on the JVM without any real help from the JVM
    itself. This resulted in some combination of (a) additional complexity for
    the language implementer and (b) far less than optimal performance.

    Over the several years since Oracle acquired Sun, Oracle has been investing
    (fairly heavily, considering that there is no "product for sale" in this
    area) in making the JVM much more friendly for dynamic languages. The
    example most commonly cited is the "new" invokedynamic byte code, but
    there's also quite a lot of work going on in the Java libraries and in the
    JVM itself to make other languages easier to implement and to make their
    performance significantly better.

    The Nashorn project represents some of the early fruit of this work, for
    example by making extensive use of call-site capabilities with
    invokedynamic. However, projects like jRuby and Nashorn that have taken
    advantage of the early JVM work for dynamic language support have also
    given rise to an additional wave of ideas on how to optimize the JVM
    further, so there's already work on a "v2" of these ideas (e.g. full
    support for inlining of dynamic invokes, which is something I don't even
    understand at this point).

    It's important to understand that there is no single use case for the JVM,
    just as there is no single use case for Linux. Dynamic languages are one
    constituency that are pushing the boundaries of performance optimizations
    on the JVM, but that is just one facet of the investments being made in the
    Java platform. Just as with Node, the OpenJDK development is done in open
    source and involves many different organizations and individuals, and
    fortunately is not limited by the imagination and resources of a single
    company.

    One benefit that we believe is inevitable from this work is the ability of
    a platform -- like Node -- to be able to run literally *as part of* any
    Java environment, including as part of a full Java Enterprise server,
    meaning that Node could take advantage of the various "enterprisey"
    services of that environment, and vice-versa. I think that it will be quite
    interesting to see what emerges.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy | Oracle
    *(Working at Oracle, but posting my own opinions as an individual.)
    *
    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:52:44 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    There's been an interesting thread I've been following throughout this (my
    first) JavaOne of "polyglot" - pretty much: "Java the language is way,
    waaay far from perfect: use whatever JVM language best suits the job/domain
    at hand." Obviously, there's been that "on the JVM" bent, but the message
    dynamic language guys have been selling is: "if you need middleware which
    already exists in a Java EE app server and there's a wrapper for <favourite
    dynamic language>, just *use* the <favourite dynamic language> wrapper."
    Other talks have gone further and pretty much said: "look: when you need to
    scale, just use whatever's best at the task at hand, doesn't matter what
    it's written in/runs on," at which many mental high-fives were given by
    myself and a a certain amount of confuzzled questions were asked.

    The JRuby guys are way ahead on this front: Charles Nutter has had a bunch
    of great talks here, and from listening to the Oracle & JVM guys it sounds
    like he's been a key driver as an initial user of the JVM-specific details
    (invokeDynamic). He and Tom Enebo (another JRuby guy) had a packed talk
    where they did a great job of sellling dynamic languages in general and for
    build/testing tools in particular as an entry point. Given that Oracle have
    people working on a more efficient JavaScript implementation than what's
    standard in Java-land, and that they're working on a Node API
    implementation (a talk today about implementation details such as
    https://github.com/szegedi/dynalink was a programmer geeking-out-fest, as
    someone who's been stuck in webapps-land for too long), I guess this just
    is a bit of a heads-up.

    (I should point out, FWIW, that I use (server-side) JavaScript and Python
    almost exclusively in my free time and Java/JVM/enterprisey stuff almost
    exclusively at work, so I'm currently a bit stoked (and drunk on free
    alcolhol, and overwhelmed by SF partially due to the former) about having
    attended days of talks which merge stuff I'm interested in personally and
    stuff I *have* to be interested in professionally)

    Thanks,
    Jonny.

    On 4 October 2012 19:05, Ben Noordhuis <in...@bnoordhuis.nl <javascript:>>wrote:
    On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan
    <jonathan...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.
    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs,
    module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to
    be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even
    if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but
    it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get
    at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    - >
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html
    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other
    implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.
    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?
    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. And no, we've not been
    consulted. :-)
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  • Johnny Honestly at Oct 5, 2012 at 8:03 pm
    I never liked the name Javascript anyway, b/c of the Java confusion and
    because the coffee fetish thing is, IMHO, below the awesomeness of the
    language.

    Really tho, all I care is that they fork NPM so it doesn't get clogged with
    java modules.

    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:16:24 AM UTC-7, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is
    going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of
    Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source
    Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and
    another way to get at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:


    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations
    to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is
    trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this
    stuff?

    ---
    Jonny
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  • Mikeal Rogers at Oct 6, 2012 at 1:44 pm
    I think the point would be that modules written in JavaScript run in Node.jar, and that these people would write JavaScript modules, which would mean they are still compatible with the same registry without needing to fork.

    On Oct 5, 2012, at October 5, 201210:03 PM, Johnny Honestly wrote:

    I never liked the name Javascript anyway, b/c of the Java confusion and because the coffee fetish thing is, IMHO, below the awesomeness of the language.

    Really tho, all I care is that they fork NPM so it doesn't get clogged with java modules.


    On Thursday, October 4, 2012 10:16:24 AM UTC-7, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar. Nashorn itself is going to be open-source, but it sounds like it's hard to get a hold of Node.jar even if you work for Oracle, and there are no plans to open-source Node.jar, but it could be another deployment option in the future and another way to get at multi-threading.

    These are what I can decipher from my scribbled notes:

    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/meet_nashorn_bof.html
    https://insin-notes.readthedocs.org/en/latest/JavaOne2012/nashorn_node_jpa_persistence_bof.html

    They at pains to point out they hadn't looked at any other implementations to keep the JavaScript engine "pure", but it sounds like the Node port is trying to reuse as much of the Node JS libs as possible and Node's tests.

    Has the Node dev team been involved with or consulted about any of this stuff?

    ---
    Jonny

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  • Shawn wilson at Oct 9, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    On Oct 5, 2012 4:03 PM, "Johnny Honestly" wrote:
    I never liked the name Javascript anyway, b/c of the Java confusion and
    because the coffee fetish thing is, IMHO, below the awesomeness of the
    language.
    >

    LiveScript v.02 ftw

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  • Patrick Mueller at Oct 8, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    On 10/4/12 1:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:
    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar.
    For folks interested in "node on Java", there's a project out there
    called SprintStack which - as near as I can tell - also aims to provide
    "node" on Java.

    http://sprintstack.com/

    I have no experience with it, just happened to notice it a while back.

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  • Stewart Mckinney at Oct 9, 2012 at 12:21 am
    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?

    If you are going to build out new services in Node.js, why not simply
    create auxiliary architecture to support it? Service layers don't need to
    be physically integrated, although I can see the argument from an
    "gee this is gonna be easier to convince my IT department to do"
    perspective.

    To me it just seems like an interesting exercise, not anything truly
    practical, although I don't mind being educated in the matter.
    On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Patrick Mueller wrote:
    On 10/4/12 1:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar.
    For folks interested in "node on Java", there's a project out there called
    SprintStack which - as near as I can tell - also aims to provide "node" on
    Java.

    http://sprintstack.com/

    I have no experience with it, just happened to notice it a while back.


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  • Stewart Mckinney at Oct 9, 2012 at 12:45 am
    *natively. Christ.
    On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Stewart Mckinney wrote:

    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?

    If you are going to build out new services in Node.js, why not simply
    create auxiliary architecture to support it? Service layers don't need to
    be physically integrated, although I can see the argument from an
    "gee this is gonna be easier to convince my IT department to do"
    perspective.

    To me it just seems like an interesting exercise, not anything truly
    practical, although I don't mind being educated in the matter.

    On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Patrick Mueller wrote:
    On 10/4/12 1:16 PM, Jonathan Buchanan wrote:

    I'm at JavaOne, for my sins, and I've been attending all the sessions
    related to Oracle's new JavaScript implementation in Java, called Nashorn.

    What initially caught my eye was that they're also porting the Node.js
    APIs, module system etc. in a project called Node.jar.
    For folks interested in "node on Java", there's a project out there
    called SprintStack which - as near as I can tell - also aims to provide
    "node" on Java.

    http://sprintstack.com/

    I have no experience with it, just happened to notice it a while back.


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  • Ben Noordhuis at Oct 9, 2012 at 1:03 am

    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney wrote:
    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?
    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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  • Rick Waldron at Oct 9, 2012 at 5:15 am
    This strikes me as the sort of shitty compatibility fragmentation that browsers suffer from. What happens when "node.jar" falls behind in supporting new features? Bug fixes?

    -Rick

    On Monday, October 8, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Ben Noordhuis wrote:
    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney wrote:
    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?

    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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  • Cole gillespie at Oct 9, 2012 at 5:27 am
    Isnt the goal of node to eventually be done with "new features" / "bugs" ?
    =)
    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Rick Waldron wrote:

    This strikes me as the sort of shitty compatibility fragmentation that
    browsers suffer from. What happens when "node.jar" falls behind in
    supporting new features? Bug fixes?

    -Rick

    On Monday, October 8, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Ben Noordhuis wrote:

    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney wrote:

    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?


    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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  • Isaac Schlueter at Oct 9, 2012 at 7:14 pm
    This is just a natural part of being a popular programming platform.
    It seems pretty similar to me to something like JRuby or Jython.

    On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:21 PM, cole gillespie wrote:
    Isnt the goal of node to eventually be done with "new features" / "bugs" ?
    =)
    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Rick Waldron wrote:

    This strikes me as the sort of shitty compatibility fragmentation that
    browsers suffer from. What happens when "node.jar" falls behind in
    supporting new features? Bug fixes?

    -Rick

    On Monday, October 8, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Ben Noordhuis wrote:

    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney <lordmaple@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?


    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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  • Shawn wilson at Oct 9, 2012 at 10:21 pm
    It would also be interesting to have a full node stack on android... and I
    hear ARM is discontinuing their native Java support, but if I'm wrong,
    native node on something like a cheap NXP chip would be cool too. I doubt
    this just because I'm sure there are requirements in Java I skimmed over in
    the headlines, but just a thought / hope ;)
    On Oct 8, 2012 9:03 PM, "Ben Noordhuis" wrote:
    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney wrote:
    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?
    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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  • Cpurdy at Oct 20, 2012 at 12:15 pm
    The Oracle JVM is now available on ARM. (I'm not sure if the ARM port is
    open sourced as part of OpenJDK or not.) At JavaOne this year, Oracle
    announced Java for Embedded; a significant amount of the customers and
    partners in this area are using ARM. Among other things, Java for Embedded
    supports the Java EE 6 standard, which includes lightweight web profile
    development support (using the Glassfish server -- see
    http://glassfish.org).

    Nashorn is built on top of the JVM, and thus will run on any compliant JVM
    implementation on any platform. It should be pretty easy to run Node on ARM
    using Nashorn. And of course, V8 can also run on ARM.

    There are still a number of micro-benchmarks in which Nashorn trails V8,
    but it is able to take advantage of the Hotspot dynamic native compilation
    (using runtime profiling to hyper-optimize hot spots within the code),
    which should make the overall performance significantly better. The JVM is
    also designed to take advantage of multi-core and multi-threaded
    architectures, which is an area that ARM is rapidly growing into.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy | Oracle
    *(Working for Oracle, but speaking as an individual and writing my own
    personal opinions.)
    *

    On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 4:25:46 PM UTC-4, shawn wilson wrote:

    It would also be interesting to have a full node stack on android... and I
    hear ARM is discontinuing their native Java support, but if I'm wrong,
    native node on something like a cheap NXP chip would be cool too. I doubt
    this just because I'm sure there are requirements in Java I skimmed over in
    the headlines, but just a thought / hope ;)
    On Oct 8, 2012 9:03 PM, "Ben Noordhuis" <in...@bnoordhuis.nl <javascript:>>
    wrote:
    On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Stewart Mckinney <lord...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
    wrote:
    I'm just curious as to why having Node run on top of the Java run time is
    better than say, vanilla C++ compiled Node running naively. Doesn't it run
    on pretty much every popular platform now, anyway?
    The major ones, yes. But there are some high margin, low volume
    architectures like POWER and S/390 that V8 doesn't support (and hence
    node.js) but the JVM does. Think AIX, mainframes, etc.

    There has been some corporate interest in running node on such
    architectures but the time and money to get (and keep) it ported isn't
    worth it. node.jar could be a viable alternative.

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