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OUYA, the open Android based game console developer version just shipped. Anyone interested in porting/developing in Go?

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  • Anssi Porttikivi at Dec 28, 2012 at 9:58 am
  • Bryanturley at Dec 28, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    On Friday, December 28, 2012 3:58:48 AM UTC-6, Anssi Porttikivi wrote:
    There was this discussion:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/ouya/comments/11zl3h/native_games_on_ouya/

    Yeah I have found talking about technical things on reddit to be a bad idea
    generally.

    From what I am remembering we need the gold linker to work on arm (unless
    you want to use giant goroutine stacks) before gccgo can be used with the
    ndk.
    And most likely a JNI for go since android was designed poorly...
    Probably some other moderately important things as well ;)






    --
  • Anssi Porttikivi at Dec 29, 2012 at 9:25 am
    A point is, that the OUYA team has no intention to hamper or control any sw or even hw hacking on the platform. On the contrary within their resources they probably would help Go development as much as they can.

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  • Anssi Porttikivi at Dec 29, 2012 at 9:35 am
    I am starting to feel, that because the Google Go team has a reasonable narrow focus for Google's own applications of Go, this may slow down Go progress in radically different settings.

    --
  • Dave Cheney at Dec 29, 2012 at 12:20 pm
    Is there are part of this conversation that I am not a part of ?
    On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Anssi Porttikivi wrote:
    I am starting to feel, that because the Google Go team has a reasonable narrow focus for Google's own applications of Go, this may slow down Go progress in radically different settings.

    --
    --
  • Anssi Porttikivi at Dec 29, 2012 at 9:51 am
    No, Dave. it is just my random thoughts here. I see a clear and present danger that while Go is considered commercially and politically a Google dominated field, at the same time Go technologies tend to evolve faster to those directions that Google needs. This creates a needlessly narrow image to the language.

    --
  • Rémy Oudompheng at Dec 29, 2012 at 10:04 am

    2012/12/29 Anssi Porttikivi <porttikivi@gmail.com>:
    No, Dave. it is just my random thoughts here. I see a clear and present danger that while Go is considered commercially and politically a Google dominated field, at the same time Go technologies tend to evolve faster to those directions that Google needs. This creates a needlessly narrow image to the language.
    I see Go as a language designed for productivity and programming
    speed. This has some implications, like partial elegance and
    simplicity. These goals makes it naturally oriented towards industrial
    programming, but it's not a Google-specific target.

    Most people in the Go team have very open minds: Go can progress in
    some new direction if someone explains why this direction is useful
    (not a problem), if it is technically possible (can be a problem), and
    there are people to implement it (the main problem).

    Rémy.

    --
  • Anssi Porttikivi at Dec 29, 2012 at 10:09 am
    Go could use a professional salesman, an evangelist, to market and support it in critical industries and applications. A clear road map for world domination could also help. Something that Sun had from Java's day one.

    --
  • Dave Cheney at Dec 29, 2012 at 10:13 am
    Go could use a professional salesman, an evangelist, to market and support it in critical industries and applications.
    What do you think everyone who reads this mailing list, who
    contributes to the IRC discussions, who writes packages, who holds and
    attends meetups is doing every day ?

    In that respect I think Go, as a young language, is doing better than its peers.

    Please, if you're going to start a discussion, then have something to discuss.

    --
  • Bryanturley at Dec 29, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    On Saturday, December 29, 2012 3:50:57 AM UTC-6, Anssi Porttikivi wrote:
    No, Dave. it is just my random thoughts here. I see a clear and present
    danger that while Go is considered commercially and politically a Google
    dominated field, at the same time Go technologies tend to evolve faster to
    those directions that Google needs. This creates a needlessly narrow image
    to the language.

    Meh, I don't see it that way there are just obstacles that need to be
    overcome before go can hit some of these other platforms.

    As far as go having a narrow google-focused image, Go doesn't really work
    fully for android and android is a google project.
    If google was being only self serving with go then wouldn't it have worked
    in all google worlds a while ago?

    And if google were to get nothing out of go why would it spend any
    resources on it? They are not a charity.

    I would blame go not working on android on the design of android more than
    anything google as a whole did.
    Go would probably take nothing to get working on maemo or whatever it is
    called today.

    --
  • George Shammas at Dec 30, 2012 at 11:27 am
    Getting back on track. Software wise OUYA is about as open as most
    android phones, maybe even less so. The dev kit had to add a usb mini
    port, because they didn't want everyone running adb, if you want root
    on the standard console, your going to also need a screw driver, and
    possibly a soldering iron. On the plus side they'll give you a guide
    on how to do it, however that would have came out regardless if they
    gave it for free or not.

    They will have their own market place where they will take there 30%
    cut, and are trying to get exclusive deals with game makers. They can
    only be exclusive if there is DRM, or other secret sause to prevent
    tampering. More over, they do some technical loop hole-ing in the FAQ,
    notably, these two blocks
    "For developers, open means that any developer can publish a game –
    if you've got a game, you can put it on OUYA. You can price your game
    however you like – it's your game!"
    ---
    "So we'll have a standard user interface. We'll curate your games
    in our storefront so they're easy for everyone to get to. And we’ll
    require that all games we put in our store include a free experience.
    If you don’t like our choices, root the device and make it your own."

    Android market seems to be more open the the ouya market. It can't be
    open, if your curating. Sure any developer can create a game, but the
    majority of people using OUYA will only be able to install it if OUYA
    says they can. But there is a loop hole, if everyone roots their
    device, the everyone can indeed install your game.


    The open hardware is the interesting bit. I bought an OUYA because I
    can use it in replace of a beagle board. And as such I can use any
    language to my hearts content. Without fear of the dalvik.


    TL;DR: OUYA is making a ton of promises about being open, but with
    curation and wanting a consistant interface, they are probably going
    to lock it down what can be done without rooting the device. Of course
    with root, you can do anything, but the same is true for most every
    phone on the market.

    On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 9:53 AM, bryanturley wrote:
    On Saturday, December 29, 2012 3:50:57 AM UTC-6, Anssi Porttikivi wrote:

    No, Dave. it is just my random thoughts here. I see a clear and present
    danger that while Go is considered commercially and politically a Google
    dominated field, at the same time Go technologies tend to evolve faster to
    those directions that Google needs. This creates a needlessly narrow image
    to the language.

    Meh, I don't see it that way there are just obstacles that need to be
    overcome before go can hit some of these other platforms.

    As far as go having a narrow google-focused image, Go doesn't really work
    fully for android and android is a google project.
    If google was being only self serving with go then wouldn't it have worked
    in all google worlds a while ago?

    And if google were to get nothing out of go why would it spend any resources
    on it? They are not a charity.

    I would blame go not working on android on the design of android more than
    anything google as a whole did.
    Go would probably take nothing to get working on maemo or whatever it is
    called today.

    --
    --
  • Bryanturley at Dec 29, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    On Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:15:34 AM UTC-7, George Shammas wrote:
    Getting back on track. Software wise OUYA is about as open as most
    android phones, maybe even less so. The dev kit had to add a usb mini
    port, because they didn't want everyone running adb, if you want root
    on the standard console, your going to also need a screw driver, and
    possibly a soldering iron.

    Where are you getting this information? It is completely contrary to
    everything I have read.

    You don't need usb to run adb it works fine over ip and the ouya has
    ethernet and wifi.
    It has other usb ports they just don't run in client mode (forget the real
    name)
    The 1000+ dev versions they released were incomplete versions of the
    hardware and software the system doesn't release till march.
    In the release video they pointed out things that they knew were going to
    change already.
    The mini usb was probably added to this one time only run of dev machines
    because things are not 100% stable yet.

    They have stated that rooting the os will not void the warranty, which is
    the opposite of every other android device I have seen.

    On the plus side they'll give you a guide
    on how to do it, however that would have came out regardless if they
    gave it for free or not.

    They will have their own market place where they will take there 30%
    cut, and are trying to get exclusive deals with game makers. They can
    only be exclusive if there is DRM, or other secret sause to prevent
    tampering. More over, they do some technical loop hole-ing in the FAQ,
    notably, these two blocks
    "For developers, open means that any developer can publish a game –
    if you've got a game, you can put it on OUYA. You can price your game
    however you like – it's your game!"
    ---
    "So we'll have a standard user interface. We'll curate your games
    in our storefront so they're easy for everyone to get to. And we’ll
    require that all games we put in our store include a free experience.
    If you don’t like our choices, root the device and make it your own."

    Android market seems to be more open the the ouya market. It can't be
    open, if your curating. Sure any developer can create a game, but the
    majority of people using OUYA will only be able to install it if OUYA
    says they can. But there is a loop hole, if everyone roots their
    device, the everyone can indeed install your game.
    Eh? not actually seeing how this impacts openness... or scary loopholes for
    that matter.

    The open hardware is the interesting bit. I bought an OUYA because I
    can use it in replace of a beagle board. And as such I can use any
    language to my hearts content. Without fear of the dalvik.
    Indeed android is depressingly focused on java.

    TL;DR: OUYA is making a ton of promises about being open, but with
    curation and wanting a consistant interface, they are probably going
    to lock it down what can be done without rooting the device. Of course
    with root, you can do anything, but the same is true for most every
    phone on the market.
    gofmt and related forced styles bring consistency to the presentation of go
    code, would you say it isn't open because of that?
    locking users out of root that don't need it while providing an easy way to
    get it if you do isn't really a problem.
    it worked very well on maemo.

    --
  • George Shammas at Dec 29, 2012 at 11:59 pm
    First, let me apologize for making my email sounds like fact. Much of it
    was unconfirmed opinions. Opinions that are based on trends of other "open"
    hardware projects, but trends can always be broken. Worse still, it can
    only be proven true or false once OUYA gets released and people start
    playing playing with it. It was bad form to make it sounds like fact.

    Here is my rebuttal, and in true debate form, is the last thing I am
    allowed to say on this topic.
    On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:08 PM, bryanturley wrote:


    You don't need usb to run adb it works fine over ip and the ouya has
    ethernet and wifi.
    It has other usb ports they just don't run in client mode (forget the real
    name)
    The 1000+ dev versions they released were incomplete versions of the
    hardware and software the system doesn't release till march.
    In the release video they pointed out things that they knew were going to
    change already.
    The mini usb was probably added to this one time only run of dev machines
    because things are not 100% stable yet.
    ADB over ethernet won't let you fix a non-booting device, unless the boot
    loader is very smart. Possible, but unlikely. If you brick the boot loader,
    your going to need direct access for sure. So someone releases a really
    cool rom, and an unexperienced user bricks the device, he/she will most
    likely have to get deeper then the exterior allows.

    They have stated that rooting the os will not void the warranty, which is
    the opposite of every other android device I have seen.
    This is indeed what they stated, but they are only talking about hardware,
    though they never said that explicitly. Here is an example of why: If I
    install a custom rom, and the USB host ports stop working; they will only
    honor the warranty if I flash it back to the stock OS, because its the only
    way to know if the unsupported software is the problem, or the actual
    hardware.

    I had a mortola atrix, one of the more restrictive android phones, with a
    custom rom. A section of the screen stop responded to touch. If I returned
    the phone as it, they surely would have laughed at me, and made me buy a
    new one. So I restored to the stock OS, and then returned the phone. They
    were able to verify the problem, and replaced the phone. Essentially the
    same thing OUYA would most likely do.

    That said what OUYA is doing is good for the open source community. They
    are legalizing software changes, so people don't have to hide and cover it
    up if the hardware fails. However, anyone who has launched a product will
    tell you, support is the hardest part. And there is no feasible way that
    they can support the software once you make a change.

    gofmt and related forced styles bring consistency to the presentation of
    go code, would you say it isn't open because of that?
    So thats a bit of a stretch from what I was saying. There is no requirement
    on using them, gofmt even always you to change how it formats code, without
    modify its code. But lets continue this bad metaphor. Imagine if the go
    compiler wouldn't compile your code because you used four spaces instead of
    hard tabs. Nothing is wrong with the code, but the compiler won't accept it
    because it doesn't like the way it looks. This is similar to market
    curation, ability to block apps for arbitrary reasons. Is the apple store
    open?

    locking users out of root that don't need it while providing an easy way
    to get it if you do isn't really a problem.
    it worked very well on maemo.
    Again, I don't see how this is different from most android
    phones. Especially android phones that are sold by google. The G1 for
    example allowed `adb root` right off that bat. That just gave you a root
    shell. Of course that became a security concern, which is why it has become
    a bit harder, but not very.

    --
  • Bryanturley at Dec 30, 2012 at 9:20 am

    On Saturday, December 29, 2012 4:07:51 PM UTC-7, George Shammas wrote:

    First, let me apologize for making my email sounds like fact. Much of it
    was unconfirmed opinions. Opinions that are based on trends of other "open"
    hardware projects, but trends can always be broken. Worse still, it can
    only be proven true or false once OUYA gets released and people start
    playing playing with it. It was bad form to make it sounds like fact.

    Here is my rebuttal, and in true debate form, is the last thing I am
    allowed to say on this topic.
    Debate? Meh more of a discussion place, nothing so formal. I am
    frequently very wrong.

    On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 4:08 PM, bryanturley <bryan...@gmail.com<javascript:>
    wrote:


    You don't need usb to run adb it works fine over ip and the ouya has
    ethernet and wifi.
    It has other usb ports they just don't run in client mode (forget the
    real name)
    The 1000+ dev versions they released were incomplete versions of the
    hardware and software the system doesn't release till march.
    In the release video they pointed out things that they knew were going to
    change already.
    The mini usb was probably added to this one time only run of dev machines
    because things are not 100% stable yet.
    ADB over ethernet won't let you fix a non-booting device, unless the boot
    loader is very smart. Possible, but unlikely. If you brick the boot loader,
    your going to need direct access for sure. So someone releases a really
    cool rom, and an unexperienced user bricks the device, he/she will most
    likely have to get deeper then the exterior allows.
    Last few times I have fixed non-booting phones it wasn't with adb, it was
    with a lower level tool though it was over usb.
    The new mini usb may be a permanent change. The dev units are just early
    release though at least from what I can tell.
    I have flashed pc bios'es with external devices as well but most people
    don't ever need to do that or even realize it is an option, even if they
    format and reinstall an os.

    They have stated that rooting the os will not void the warranty, which is
    the opposite of every other android device I have seen.
    This is indeed what they stated, but they are only talking about hardware,
    though they never said that explicitly. Here is an example of why: If I
    install a custom rom, and the USB host ports stop working; they will only
    honor the warranty if I flash it back to the stock OS, because its the only
    way to know if the unsupported software is the problem, or the actual
    hardware.

    I had a mortola atrix, one of the more restrictive android phones, with a
    custom rom. A section of the screen stop responded to touch. If I returned
    the phone as it, they surely would have laughed at me, and made me buy a
    new one. So I restored to the stock OS, and then returned the phone. They
    were able to verify the problem, and replaced the phone. Essentially the
    same thing OUYA would most likely do.

    That said what OUYA is doing is good for the open source community. They
    are legalizing software changes, so people don't have to hide and cover it
    up if the hardware fails. However, anyone who has launched a product will
    tell you, support is the hardest part. And there is no feasible way that
    they can support the software once you make a change.

    gofmt and related forced styles bring consistency to the presentation of
    go code, would you say it isn't open because of that?
    So thats a bit of a stretch from what I was saying. There is no
    requirement on using them, gofmt even always you to change how it formats
    code, without modify its code. But lets continue this bad metaphor. Imagine
    if the go compiler wouldn't compile your code because you used four spaces
    instead of hard tabs. Nothing is wrong with the code, but the compiler
    won't accept it because it doesn't like the way it looks. This is similar
    to market curation, ability to block apps for arbitrary reasons. Is the
    apple store open?
    brace style is mostly forced and capitals mean something. there is a bit of
    forced style that is what i am referring to.
    expecting their store front to be as open as the console is a bit silly.

    locking users out of root that don't need it while providing an easy way
    to get it if you do isn't really a problem.
    it worked very well on maemo.
    Again, I don't see how this is different from most android
    phones. Especially android phones that are sold by google. The G1 for
    example allowed `adb root` right off that bat. That just gave you a root
    shell. Of course that became a security concern, which is why it has become
    a bit harder, but not very.
    It has been my experience that the majority of android phones require hacks
    to break free. I assume that to be the carriers fault though.
    I would love to see that go away.

    --
  • Ian Lance Taylor at Dec 30, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:21 AM, bryanturley wrote:
    From what I am remembering we need the gold linker to work on arm (unless
    you want to use giant goroutine stacks) before gccgo can be used with the
    ndk.
    Gccgo and gold do not support split stacks on ARM at present.
    Currently split stacks only work on x86 when using gccgo. Supporting
    them on ARM is entirely possible but nobody has implemented it.

    Ian

    --
  • André Moraes at Dec 28, 2012 at 11:01 am
    OUYA, the open Android based game console developer version just shipped. Anyone interested in porting/developing in Go?
    AFAIK Go already compile to ARM, so Go should be able to run if the
    Android layer is removed.

    I saw sometime ago in the Android issue tracker, that some people were
    requesting support for Go in it.

    Maybe gccgo has more chances to run than gc, since Android already
    have the NDK, but this is just plain speculation.

    I wonder how many months I will need to wait until OUYA consoles reach
    the tropics.

    --
    André Moraes
    http://amoraes.info

    --
  • Kosztka Imre Dávid at Dec 28, 2012 at 11:39 am
    Sounds interesting.


    2012/12/28 Anssi Porttikivi <porttikivi@gmail.com>
    OUYA, the open Android based game console developer version just shipped.
    Anyone interested in porting/developing in Go?

    --


    --
    Name : Kosztka Imre Dávid
    E-mail: kosztkaid@gmail.com
    Phone number: +36309213462
    Mailing address: H-3700, Hungary Kazincbarcika Szeder utca 2.

    --

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