FAQ
Hello,

I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
would.

Best regards,
Alexander

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  • Baishampayan Ghose at Feb 9, 2012 at 3:55 pm
    Alexander,

    A discussion is currently ongoing in the Clojure Dev mailing list.

    We are still waiting for someone from Clojure/core to chime in.

    Regards,
    BG

    On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    wrote:
    Hello,

    I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
    year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
    time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
    would.

    Best regards,
    Alexander

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  • Simone Mosciatti at Feb 14, 2012 at 2:23 am
    More students
    +1
    On Feb 9, 9:54 am, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:
    Alexander,

    A discussion is currently ongoing in the Clojure Dev mailing list.

    We are still waiting for someone from Clojure/core to chime in.

    Regards,
    BG

    On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Alexander Yakushev









    wrote:
    Hello,
    I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
    year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
    time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
    would.
    Best regards,
    Alexander
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  • Peter Hanak at Feb 17, 2012 at 10:41 pm
    another +1 here
    On Feb 14, 3:23 am, Simone Mosciatti wrote:
    More students
    +1

    On Feb 9, 9:54 am, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:






    Alexander,
    A discussion is currently ongoing in the Clojure Dev mailing list.
    We are still waiting for someone from Clojure/core to chime in.
    Regards,
    BG
    On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    wrote:
    Hello,
    I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
    year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
    time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
    would.
    Best regards,
    Alexander
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  • Devin Walters at Feb 18, 2012 at 12:07 am
    +1, would love to help in any way I can

    '(Devin Walters)
    On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Peter Hanak wrote:

    another +1 here
    On Feb 14, 3:23 am, Simone Mosciatti wrote:
    More students
    +1

    On Feb 9, 9:54 am, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:






    Alexander,
    A discussion is currently ongoing in the Clojure Dev mailing list.
    We are still waiting for someone from Clojure/core to chime in.
    Regards,
    BG
    On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    wrote:
    Hello,
    I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
    year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
    time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
    would.
    Best regards,
    Alexander
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  • Justin Anthony Hamilton at Feb 21, 2012 at 1:17 am
    +1 additional student here.
    On Feb 17, 6:07 pm, Devin Walters wrote:
    +1, would love to help in any way I can

    '(Devin Walters)

    On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Peter Hanak wrote:






    another +1 here
    On Feb 14, 3:23 am, Simone Mosciatti wrote:
    More students
    +1
    On Feb 9, 9:54 am, Baishampayan Ghose wrote:

    Alexander,
    A discussion is currently ongoing in the Clojure Dev mailing list.
    We are still waiting for someone from Clojure/core to chime in.
    Regards,
    BG
    On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    wrote:
    Hello,
    I am wondering if there is there anybody willing to take part in this
    year's GSoC as a mentor? I would be happy to contribute this summer's
    time to hacking Clojure and there are probably more students that
    would.
    Best regards,
    Alexander
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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 26, 2012 at 11:15 am
    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.

    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):
    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2012/faqs#mentoring_apply
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC: http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas

    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.

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  • David Nolen at Feb 26, 2012 at 5:19 pm
    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012

    Please submit more project ideas :)

    David
    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.

    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):

    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2012/faqs#mentoring_apply
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC:
    http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas

    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.

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  • Devin Walters at Feb 26, 2012 at 11:48 pm
    Some seeds for project ideas:
    - documentation
    - clooj
    - clojars
    - leiningen

    '(Devin Walters)

    On Sunday, February 26, 2012 at 11:19 AM, David Nolen wrote:

    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012

    Please submit more project ideas :)

    David
    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Alexander Yakushev (mailto:yakushev.alex@gmail.com)> wrote:
    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.

    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):
    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2012/faqs#mentoring_apply
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC: http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas

    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.

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  • Phil Hagelberg at Feb 27, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    Devin Walters writes:

    Some seeds for project ideas:
    - documentation
    - clooj
    - clojars
    - leiningen
    If I had any big ideas for Leiningen I don't think I could wait until
    the summer to implement them... but I would be happy to help mentor for
    Clojars.

    -Phil

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  • David Nolen at Feb 27, 2012 at 5:56 pm

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:

    Devin Walters <devinw@gmail.com> writes:
    Some seeds for project ideas:
    - documentation
    - clooj
    - clojars
    - leiningen
    If I had any big ideas for Leiningen I don't think I could wait until
    the summer to implement them... but I would be happy to help mentor for
    Clojars.

    -Phil

    Great!

    David

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  • Sanel Zukan at Feb 29, 2012 at 1:45 pm
    Another two ideas were added :) (Native Clojure and Code optimizer).

    Hoping readers will not mind for putting myself as mentor on one of
    them, but if there are better candidates, feel free to take it :) I
    did a little bit gcj + Clojure playing and I'm eager to see native
    Clojure without jvm.

    Although I did some exploring on possible optimization techniques, I'm
    leaving mentor section on Optimizer empty as there are probably more
    experienced colleagues in this field.

    Regards,
    Sanel


    On Feb 26, 6:19 pm, David Nolen wrote:
    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012

    Please submit more project ideas :)

    David

    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Alexander Yakushev <yakushev.a...@gmail.com






    wrote:
    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.
    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):
    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/...
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC:
    http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas
    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.
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  • Devesh Mittal at Feb 27, 2012 at 1:55 pm
    I am gonna take part in the Google Summer of Code'12 for the first time and
    I'm really interested to know how many Clojure based projects will/are
    supposed to be sponsored by the Google this year. Moreover , I would like
    to know the key components which require development in Clojure as a
    reference to any student interested in it.
    Any pointers in the right direction will be highly appreciated
    Regards
    Mittal
    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.

    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):

    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2012/faqs#mentoring_apply
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC:
    http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas

    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.

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  • David Nolen at Feb 27, 2012 at 2:02 pm
    Clojure/core hasn't yet been accepted as an organization - and it might not
    at all!

    I have a feeling the more great ideas that students propose, the more
    people step up as potential mentors - the more compelling it is to choose
    an organization. So far we've seeded the proposal list with some mentor
    ideas. However you might not find anything in this list interesting! So
    propose something you're excited about :) This is a 100% community driven
    effort.

    The key component is some familiarity with Clojure. An ambitious student
    with a background in Scheme, Common Lisp, Standard ML, Haskell, Scala,
    Prolog, etc. would probably also do well.

    David
    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Devesh Mittal wrote:

    I am gonna take part in the Google Summer of Code'12 for the first time
    and I'm really interested to know how many Clojure based projects will/are
    supposed to be sponsored by the Google this year. Moreover , I would like
    to know the key components which require development in Clojure as a
    reference to any student interested in it.
    Any pointers in the right direction will be highly appreciated
    Regards
    Mittal

    On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Alexander Yakushev <
    yakushev.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
    So the application submiting procedure for organizations starts
    tomorrow but sadly there isn't any word about it at least on
    Confluence. There are willing mentors on the clojure-dev list and
    ideas to submit but as far as I understood from the GSOC site an
    organization must apply to host all these project ideas and
    subsequently assign mentors.

    Here's how a mentoring organization should apply (may save some time):

    http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2012/faqs#mentoring_apply
    .
    Here's an example of the idea list for GSOC:
    http://community.kde.org/GSoC/2011/Ideas

    Hopefully we will see Clojure as a mentoring organization for the
    Clojure itself and third-party projects too. As you can see, there are
    students who would like to jump in the development and Clojure
    community could make use of them.

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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 27, 2012 at 7:21 pm
    I post the following proposal here because I'm not sure I've done it
    right. It would be interesting for me and may be for someone else.

    Decent Emacs-based Clojure IDE

    Brief explanation:
    Clojure has a critical need for a good novice-friendly IDE.
    Counterclockwise certainly has its advantages but Emacs is just too
    good "Lisp IDE" to ignore that fact. Things like Slime/Swank, CDT
    (http://georgejahad.com/clojure/cdt.html), Paredit being already
    developed greatly simplify the creation of a very functional IDE. What
    is required is to bring them altogether, write glue code from
    different sides (both Emacs and the above-mentioned tools) and provide
    a click-and-go distribution (both in the form of an Emacs "meta"
    plugin and a complete Emacs for Clojure build). More specific ideas
    for the beginning:
    - better Emacs-CDT integration - visible breakpoints, understandable
    distinction between program and debug REPLs (something like Eclipse
    perspectives may be useful)
    - better Emacs-lein integration - something like package-list-packages
    for clojars might be awesome when choosing dependencies for a project.
    - better project experience - bolster the feeling of working with a
    specific project rather than a bunch of files (can take some CEDET
    stuff for this).
    - better immersion experience - docs, guides, screencasts - the usual
    kind of new users support.

    Expected results:
    Emacs that acts as a Clojure IDE on a level how Eclipse handles Java

    Knowledge Prerequisite:
    Familiarity with Clojure and Clojure/Emacs development tools.
    Familiarity with Emacs Lisp.

    What do you think? I have a feeling that it's too much for one person
    but if wisely split it could be a feasible task.

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  • David Nolen at Feb 27, 2012 at 7:02 pm
    Added
    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    I post the following proposal here because I'm not sure I've done it
    right. It would be interesting for me and may be for someone else.

    Decent Emacs-based Clojure IDE

    Brief explanation:
    Clojure has a critical need for a good novice-friendly IDE.
    Counterclockwise certainly has its advantages but Emacs is just too
    good "Lisp IDE" to ignore that fact. Things like Slime/Swank, CDT
    (http://georgejahad.com/clojure/cdt.html), Paredit being already
    developed greatly simplify the creation of a very functional IDE. What
    is required is to bring them altogether, write glue code from
    different sides (both Emacs and the above-mentioned tools) and provide
    a click-and-go distribution (both in the form of an Emacs "meta"
    plugin and a complete Emacs for Clojure build). More specific ideas
    for the beginning:
    - better Emacs-CDT integration - visible breakpoints, understandable
    distinction between program and debug REPLs (something like Eclipse
    perspectives may be useful)
    - better Emacs-lein integration - something like package-list-packages
    for clojars might be awesome when choosing dependencies for a project.
    - better project experience - bolster the feeling of working with a
    specific project rather than a bunch of files (can take some CEDET
    stuff for this).
    - better immersion experience - docs, guides, screencasts - the usual
    kind of new users support.

    Expected results:
    Emacs that acts as a Clojure IDE on a level how Eclipse handles Java

    Knowledge Prerequisite:
    Familiarity with Clojure and Clojure/Emacs development tools.
    Familiarity with Emacs Lisp.

    What do you think? I have a feeling that it's too much for one person
    but if wisely split it could be a feasible task.

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  • Cedric Greevey at Feb 27, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:
    I post the following proposal here because I'm not sure I've done it
    right. It would be interesting for me and may be for someone else.

    Decent Emacs-based Clojure IDE
    Whoa, hold your horses. Aren't "Decent" and "Emacs-based" mutually-exclusive?
    Brief explanation:
    Clojure has a critical need for a good novice-friendly IDE.
    "Novice-friendly" and "Emacs-based" definitely are.

    Sorry, but this is probably a nonstarter...
    Expected results:
    Emacs that acts as a Clojure IDE on a level how Eclipse handles Java
    Actual results: a large spike in ibuprofen sales at area pharmacies. :)

    The problem is the Emacs UI-paradigm. It's so completely at odds with
    what have become defacto industry standards (exemplified by Windows,
    MacOS Toolkit GUI, Swing, Gnome, KDE) that there's basically no way to
    sugar it up into something novice-friendly, or even just something
    that won't have the novice ripping out his hair and banging his head
    against sturdy objects struggling to make it behave the way it
    "should" when he tries to select, copy, paste, move, deselect,
    replace, etc.

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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 27, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    On Feb 27, 9:13 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    Whoa, hold your horses. Aren't "Decent" and "Emacs-based" mutually-exclusive?
    No, they are not.
    "Novice-friendly" and "Emacs-based" definitely are.
    Well, if we are considering a novice in software development then you
    are probably right. I was particularly talking about new users of
    Clojure. A seasoned developer can get acquainted with Emacs pretty
    easily and fast. Perhaps without the hairloss you described.
    Sorry, but this is probably a nonstarter...
    It could be, it could be not. After all I suppose the biggest part of
    the Clojure community still uses Emacs and I see a constant growth of
    reasons to it. CDT which I had not heard of until recently is a tool
    of a great usability improvement. This means that Emacs still matters
    for Clojure developers. And I don't think this is where you should
    apply a strict dichotomy between the hairy dudes stuck in middle ages
    with Emacs and all others who are used to common principles of Eclipse/
    VS/etc. The usability is not 0 or 1, it is a ladder with lots of small
    steps. The higher you get the more users you have.

    However thank you for the comment, I'm still susceptible to choosing
    another project.

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  • Cedric Greevey at Feb 27, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:
    On Feb 27, 9:13 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:

    Whoa, hold your horses. Aren't "Decent" and "Emacs-based" mutually-exclusive?
    No, they are not.
    "Novice-friendly" and "Emacs-based" definitely are.
    Well, if we are considering a novice in software development then you
    are probably right. I was particularly talking about new users of
    Clojure. A seasoned developer can get acquainted with Emacs pretty
    easily and fast. Perhaps without the hairloss you described.
    Sorry, but this is probably a nonstarter...
    It could be, it could be not. After all I suppose the biggest part of
    the Clojure community still uses Emacs and I see a constant growth of
    reasons to it. CDT which I had not heard of until recently is a tool
    of a great usability improvement. This means that Emacs still matters
    for Clojure developers. And I don't think this is where you should
    apply a strict dichotomy between the hairy dudes stuck in middle ages
    with Emacs and all others who are used to common principles of Eclipse/
    VS/etc. The usability is not 0 or 1, it is a ladder with lots of small
    steps. The higher you get the more users you have.
    The emacs learning curve is more like a vertical cliff face than a
    ladder with lots of small steps...

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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 27, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    On Feb 27, 10:00 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    The emacs learning curve is more like a vertical cliff face than a
    ladder with lots of small steps...
    I still don't get the point you are trying to bring.
    Is it "You can't be productive with Emacs"? If so then you are wrong
    and because Clojure developers prove otherwise.
    Or is it "You can't teach a new user to use Emacs effectively"? Once
    again I don't think this to be true, noone is born with Emacs
    shortcuts in his spinal cord.

    Please explain you position so I can take a better look from your
    perspective.

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  • Phil Hagelberg at Feb 27, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Alexander Yakushev writes:
    On Feb 27, 10:00 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    The emacs learning curve is more like a vertical cliff face than a
    ladder with lots of small steps...
    I still don't get the point you are trying to bring.
    Feeding the troll just makes things worse.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    -Phil Hagelberg, on behalf of the list denizens with finely-tuned killfiles

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  • Cedric Greevey at Feb 27, 2012 at 11:00 pm

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
    Alexander Yakushev <yakushev.alex@gmail.com> writes:
    On Feb 27, 10:00 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    The emacs learning curve is more like a vertical cliff face than a
    ladder with lots of small steps...
    I still don't get the point you are trying to bring.
    Feeding the troll just makes things worse.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    -Phil Hagelberg, on behalf of the list denizens with finely-tuned killfiles
    Responding to someone's reasoned concerns with name-calling just makes
    things worse.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    -Cedric Greevey, on behalf of the list denizens who prefer meaningful
    discussions to mud-slinging.

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  • Cedric Greevey at Feb 27, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:
    On Feb 27, 10:00 pm, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    The emacs learning curve is more like a vertical cliff face than a
    ladder with lots of small steps...
    I still don't get the point you are trying to bring.
    Is it "You can't be productive with Emacs"? If so then you are wrong
    and because Clojure developers prove otherwise.
    Or is it "You can't teach a new user to use Emacs effectively"? Once
    again I don't think this to be true, noone is born with Emacs
    shortcuts in his spinal cord.

    Please explain you position so I can take a better look from your
    perspective.
    It is, of course, neither of those things. Instead, it is "An
    autodidact cannot quickly learn to use Emacs"; also, "a new user will
    be frustrated trying to learn Emacs, particularly unassisted". Both
    mean that an Emacs newbie cannot, under normal circumstances, expect
    to be productive very quickly, not the way they could be in, say,
    clooj or Enclojure.

    This, in turn, appears to make "novice-friendly" and "Emacs-based"
    mutually exclusive, where by "novice" is meant "not a pre-existing
    Emacs user, perhaps among other things".

    As for the vertical cliff face specifically, the cause (based on my
    own attempts to use it on some Unix system some time ago) seems to be
    the way Emacs doesn't do *one single thing* in common with *any*
    popular software user interface. It's a nearly perfect circle of
    protection from newbies getting a grip on it. On the one hand, many
    basic editing functions have different and unguessable key bindings.
    OK, no problem, right? There's help, even a tutorial, etc. But when
    you open the help, it opens by the Emacs editor splitting down the
    middle, inside of Emacs, rather than as a separate thing. And because
    it's inside Emacs, the help's got idiosyncratic key bindings of its
    own. The complete newbie will have no clue how to (or even if they
    can) search it (no perceived affordances, in HCI-speak) and will have
    to scroll up and down skimming the text to find stuff. Of course, then
    there's the final plate in the newbie-proofing armor: once you've
    found the section on how to do X (say, paste, or even save and quit),
    now you need to get the input focus out of the help side of the
    display and back to the side with your text file in order to actually
    do it. Only problem is, the obvious (alt-tab, control-tab) of course
    don't work and so you can't get back without scrolling around in the
    help file some more, to find out how to switch the input focus between
    panes.

    The final straw will be when you discover that you *can't have the
    input focus in the editor with the how-to-do-X instructions displayed
    in the help pane*. Either the input focus is in the editor but the
    how-to-switch-panes instructions are in the help pane, or the
    how-to-do-X instructions are in the help pane but the input focus is
    in the help pane. The only way to get to the editor and do X requires
    you to either memorize the how-to-do-X instructions, navigate to the
    how-to-switch-panes instructions, switch panes, and then do X, or
    memorize the how-to-switch-panes instructions, navigate to the
    how-to-do-X instructions, switch panes, and then do X. And remember
    how to switch panes again when the time comes to now dredge up the
    help on how to do Y.

    The problem is that both require keeping one set of instructions
    memorized *while finding, reading, and performing the other*, which
    will tend to cause you to forget the first set, due to the limited
    size of human working memory. If even one of the things (say, how to
    switch panes) was second-nature from repeated use (like alt-tab
    already will be), this wouldn't be an issue, but since *every single
    thing* is done differently in Emacs, *none* of them will be
    second-nature to a new user, and with the above effect resulting from
    that, the new user cannot get anything nontrivial done until at least
    a few of these things are second-nature, which point they won't get to
    until they have spent a while using Emacs to get things done, which is
    a clear Catch-22.

    Basically, just to do common editing tasks will require you to
    actually *take written notes*, or at least use a separate open
    Notepad/whatever window in your operating system, and if you're going
    to use Notepad (or even pencil and paper!) why are you not just using
    Notepad instead of Emacs? It gets to be a "what's the point" sort of
    thing.

    (And it used to be even worse, or so I hear, back in the 70s or 80s.
    No arrow keys, so even scrolling in the help couldn't be done in an
    "obvious" way even to find out how to scroll in the help; and no
    "press <whatever> for help" status-line or whatever right after
    startup, so if you even got the help to display at all, it was by
    sheer accident and/or button-mashing, and you were damned if you knew
    how to make it happen again.)

    Now, in theory, learning how to use, say, Windows has the same initial
    cliff-face hurdle. Once you know alt-tab, you can have help open to
    anything alongside anything else you're working on and switch between
    them, in particular, but until then, you would have the same
    difficulty working on something while having relevant help visible
    onscreen. Of course, you probably got shown the ropes early in life,
    rather than having to (try to) learn on your own. And there's another
    thing: with Windows, MacOS, or any other GUI convention, you only have
    to get over that hurdle *once*. Once you know this you know it for
    *every native application, existing or yet to be invented*. You also
    get the basics for editing in text boxes and input forms in every
    native app. And what to expect OK, Cancel, etc. buttons to do. And so
    on, and so forth. On the other hand, once you have Emacs's
    switch-panes command memorized, you know how to switch panes in Emacs.
    Not only can't you leverage your existing knowledge of alt-tab or
    anything else in Emacs, you can't leverage your hard-won Emacs
    knowledge anywhere else either. And it loses a lot of potential value
    that way, by network effects, or rather lack of same.

    So, nowadays, in the age of widespread UI conventions, learning Emacs
    is like building up a big movie library on Betamax cassettes. You can
    use it, sure, given you keep a player in working order; maybe you can
    even share it with some enthusiasts; but it's not nearly as valuable
    as if you'd chosen some other format. :) Of course, for preexisting
    Emacs users it's a sunk cost. They may as well stick with what they
    know. But the difficulties, and lack of transferrable knowledge in or
    out, make it a dubious proposition for new users.

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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 27, 2012 at 11:49 pm

    On Feb 28, 12:59 am, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    ...
    Ok, I got the idea now and I for sure understand your frustration with
    Emacs. Emacs is definitely not for the weak of spirit (it's not a pun
    in any way, I just compare your words to my own beginner's
    experiences) requiring you to learn, google and hack a lot to make of
    it an editor you want to use (while you can use Eclipse pretty much
    out-of-the-box without touching any configuration whatsoever). But
    that's not the point I wish to discuss anymore, we had already gotten
    too far away from the original topic.

    In order to make our discussion somehow productive I propose you to
    update the project list on Confluence with ideas for your Clojure IDE
    (CCW, Enclojure or something else) improvements. I'm sure you can name
    a list of things you want to be improved and there possibly are people
    who would like to work on this feature during GSOC.

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  • Cedric Greevey at Feb 28, 2012 at 1:42 am

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Alexander Yakushev wrote:
    On Feb 28, 12:59 am, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    ...
    Ok, I got the idea now and I for sure understand your frustration with
    Emacs. Emacs is definitely not for the weak of spirit (it's not a pun
    in any way, I just compare your words to my own beginner's
    experiences) requiring you to learn, google and hack a lot to make of
    it an editor you want to use
    Hm. It might not be *quite* as bad nowadays, since now we a) have
    google and b) would probably be running Emacs (or connecting to it) in
    an emulated terminal in a desktop window with other, more familiar
    tools available alongside it, instead of being at a green-glowing
    terminal display without any of those resources ...

    Still sounds like more startup work for the newbie than basing it off
    another IDE, especially if by "another IDE" is meant "clooj". :)

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  • Devin Walters at Feb 28, 2012 at 7:35 am
    One item that hasn't made the project ideas list that I've seen numerous threads about is documentation. Does this fall within the scope of GSoC?

    It seems like there are a lot of opportunities to either organize, revise, update, or generate documentation.

    Some ideas:
    - Clojure.org's Libraries section still talks about contrib like it's first class.
    - The Getting Started guide could always use more work.
    - StackOverflow contains nuggets of wisdom that aren't anywhere in official documentation. (It also contains a lot of bad answers, but still…)
    - I've heard it said on more than one occasion that xyz docstring is out of date.
    - This is one of the few communities where you can go back to 2008 and read a transcript of a conversation between Chouser and Rich about why map destructuring is the way it is. Some of these conversations hold some deep wisdom about Why Things Are The Way They Are.
    - This list contains truckloads of information that could be organized for more efficient consumption.
    - ClojureScript wouldn't be hurt by more documentation.
    - Without making this a laundry list I'd just say: Producing and organizing good documentation is hard labor, but it is also something that I think benefits the entire community. Moreover, it might give someone a chance to learn a ton about Clojure over the course of a summer, and make it easier on everyone who decides to try out Clojure in the future as a nice side effect. I'd like to suggest we add an intentionally vague option to "Make Lots of Things Better" and list some ideas for how one might go about doing that.

    More ideas that might bear interesting and desirable fruit:
    - Make an album with Overtone. (Kidding (but only a little bit (not kidding at all, actually (I bet we'd get some passionate proposals (and maybe even a record deal ;)))))
    - The sidebar on the left of the GSoC page lists an opening for a Community Manager Internship. I think a lot of what I'm suggesting falls under that umbrella. "creating/editing documentation, helping migrate projects to newer versions of clojure, developing sample applications such as solutions for the alioth benchmarks, answering questions on IRC, administering/maintaing clojure.org, clojure.com, assemble, confluence, mycroft, etc."

    I guess what I'm saying is, at the end of the day: Let's add documentation to the list, but also add some other obviously fun projects and see what kind of proposals we receive. It doesn't mean we need to accept them, it just shows (IMO) we're very open minded about people who are passionate about building what /they/ care about, not necessarily what we care about. If some musician in grad school submitted a proposal to make an album exclusively with Overtone and published the source that would be a boon to the Overtone project IMO. If a sophomore in college wants to build some crazy parallelized Rube Goldberg machine with Clojure then I think we should at least entertain the idea of it. More than anything, I think we need to present the people who *might* do something like that with the face of a community that would genuinely appreciate it. I've met many of you personally, so I hardly think that's a stretch for us.

    This is getting really long so I apologize, but I'd like to offer up a bit of personal experience w/r/t GSoC:
    I did GSoC years ago for Plan9 (Inferno-OS specifically). I was not very familiar with their community, and I doubt many people have ever read a book about programming Limbo. As a result, a lot of the ideas that were listed were strangely specific from my limited undergrad perspective. I was interested in learning about Plan9 and contributing, not necessarily learning Plan9 to make a distributed authentication system that someone else wanted for reasons that were unknown to me and/or were not well described in the description. As a result, keep in mind that we will potentially have people submitting proposals to write Skynet 1.0 in 3 months who are doing their undergrad and may have only just had an introduction to lisp or scheme. Last note (I promise) is: potential mentors, this is not a small commitment. Trust me on that. It's as much your responsibility to steer someone toward success as it is theirs.


    Regards,
    '(Devin Walters)

    On Monday, February 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote:

    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    (mailto:yakushev.alex@gmail.com)> wrote:
    On Feb 28, 12:59 am, Cedric Greevey (http://gmail.com)> wrote:
    ...

    Ok, I got the idea now and I for sure understand your frustration with
    Emacs. Emacs is definitely not for the weak of spirit (it's not a pun
    in any way, I just compare your words to my own beginner's
    experiences) requiring you to learn, google and hack a lot to make of
    it an editor you want to use

    Hm. It might not be *quite* as bad nowadays, since now we a) have
    google and b) would probably be running Emacs (or connecting to it) in
    an emulated terminal in a desktop window with other, more familiar
    tools available alongside it, instead of being at a green-glowing
    terminal display without any of those resources ...

    Still sounds like more startup work for the newbie than basing it off
    another IDE, especially if by "another IDE" is meant "clooj". :)

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  • Alex Miller at Feb 29, 2012 at 3:50 am
    I've pushed the documentation boulder up the hill a bit and left some
    specific ideas I had here:
    http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/clojure.org+TODO+list

    Many people have picked up parts of it since I wrote it (yay!) but
    there are still a number of biggish pieces there that need to be
    blessed/vetted by someone in core. I know Fogus made a pass with many
    changes recently and perhaps some of the things on the list are moot
    now. What needs to be done imho is just web site information design
    work. I'm not sure if that falls in GSoC's normal purview.

    There are suggested unsessions at Clojure/West about both GSoC and
    documentation - I'd love to see a discussion take place about either
    during C/W. If anyone is interested, please add yourself to a list
    for either if you'll be there - http://clojurewest.wikispaces.com/Unsessions

    Alex

    On Feb 28, 1:35 am, Devin Walters wrote:
    One item that hasn't made the project ideas list that I've seen numerous threads about is documentation. Does this fall within the scope of GSoC?

    It seems like there are a lot of opportunities to either organize, revise, update, or generate documentation.

    Some ideas:
    - Clojure.org's Libraries section still talks about contrib like it's first class.
    - The Getting Started guide could always use more work.
    - StackOverflow contains nuggets of wisdom that aren't anywhere in official documentation. (It also contains a lot of bad answers, but still…)
    - I've heard it said on more than one occasion that xyz docstring is out of date.
    - This is one of the few communities where you can go back to 2008 and read a transcript of a conversation between Chouser and Rich about why map destructuring is the way it is. Some of these conversations hold some deep wisdom about Why Things Are The Way They Are.
    - This list contains truckloads of information that could be organized for more efficient consumption.
    - ClojureScript wouldn't be hurt by more documentation.
    - Without making this a laundry list I'd just say: Producing and organizing good documentation is hard labor, but it is also something that I think benefits the entire community. Moreover, it might give someone a chance to learn a ton about Clojure over the course of a summer, and make it easier on everyone who decides to try out Clojure in the future as a nice side effect. I'd like to suggest we add an intentionally vague option to "Make Lots of Things Better" and list some ideas for how one might go about doing that.

    More ideas that might bear interesting and desirable fruit:
    - Make an album with Overtone. (Kidding (but only a little bit (not kidding at all, actually (I bet we'd get some passionate proposals (and maybe even a record deal ;)))))
    - The sidebar on the left of the GSoC page lists an opening for a Community Manager Internship. I think a lot of what I'm suggesting falls under that umbrella. "creating/editing documentation, helping migrate projects to newer versions of clojure, developing sample applications such as solutions for the alioth benchmarks, answering questions on IRC, administering/maintaing clojure.org, clojure.com, assemble, confluence, mycroft, etc."

    I guess what I'm saying is, at the end of the day: Let's add documentation to the list, but also add some other obviously fun projects and see what kind of proposals we receive. It doesn't mean we need to accept them, it just shows (IMO) we're very open minded about people who are passionate about building what /they/ care about, not necessarily what we care about. If some musician in grad school submitted a proposal to make an album exclusively with Overtone and published the source that would be a boon to the Overtone project IMO. If a sophomore in college wants to build some crazy parallelized Rube Goldberg machine with Clojure then I think we should at least entertain the idea of it. More than anything, I think we need to present the people who *might* do something like that with the face of a community that would genuinely appreciate it. I've met many of you personally, so I hardly think that's a stretch for us.

    This is getting really long so I apologize, but I'd like to offer up a bit of personal experience w/r/t GSoC:
    I did GSoC years ago for Plan9 (Inferno-OS specifically). I was not very familiar with their community, and I doubt many people have ever read a book about programming Limbo. As a result, a lot of the ideas that were listed were strangely specific from my limited undergrad perspective. I was interested in learning about Plan9 and contributing, not necessarily learning Plan9 to make a distributed authentication system that someone else wanted for reasons that were unknown to me and/or were not well described in the description. As a result, keep in mind that we will potentially have people submitting proposals to write Skynet 1.0 in 3 months who are doing their undergrad and may have only just had an introduction to lisp or scheme. Last note (I promise) is: potential mentors, this is not a small commitment. Trust me on that. It's as much your responsibility to steer someone toward success as it is theirs.

    Regards,
    '(Devin Walters)






    On Monday, February 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Cedric Greevey wrote:
    On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Alexander Yakushev
    (mailto:yakushev.a...@gmail.com)> wrote:
    On Feb 28, 12:59 am, Cedric Greevey (http://gmail.com)> wrote:
    ...
    Ok, I got the idea now and I for sure understand your frustration with
    Emacs. Emacs is definitely not for the weak of spirit (it's not a pun
    in any way, I just compare your words to my own beginner's
    experiences) requiring you to learn, google and hack a lot to make of
    it an editor you want to use
    Hm. It might not be *quite* as bad nowadays, since now we a) have
    google and b) would probably be running Emacs (or connecting to it) in
    an emulated terminal in a desktop window with other, more familiar
    tools available alongside it, instead of being at a green-glowing
    terminal display without any of those resources ...
    Still sounds like more startup work for the newbie than basing it off
    another IDE, especially if by "another IDE" is meant "clooj". :)
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  • Daly at Feb 29, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    On Tue, 2012-02-28 at 01:35 -0600, Devin Walters wrote:
    One item that hasn't made the project ideas list that I've seen
    numerous threads about is documentation. Does this fall within the
    scope of GSoC?


    It seems like there are a lot of opportunities to either organize,
    revise, update, or generate documentation.


    Some ideas:
    - Clojure.org's Libraries section still talks about contrib like it's
    first class.
    - The Getting Started guide could always use more work.
    - StackOverflow contains nuggets of wisdom that aren't anywhere in
    official documentation. (It also contains a lot of bad answers, but
    still…)
    - I've heard it said on more than one occasion that xyz docstring is
    out of date.
    - This is one of the few communities where you can go back to 2008 and
    read a transcript of a conversation between Chouser and Rich about why
    map destructuring is the way it is. Some of these conversations hold
    some deep wisdom about Why Things Are The Way They Are.
    - This list contains truckloads of information that could be organized
    for more efficient consumption.
    - ClojureScript wouldn't be hurt by more documentation.
    - Without making this a laundry list I'd just say: Producing and
    organizing good documentation is hard labor, but it is also something
    that I think benefits the entire community. Moreover, it might give
    someone a chance to learn a ton about Clojure over the course of a
    summer, and make it easier on everyone who decides to try out Clojure
    in the future as a nice side effect. I'd like to suggest we add an
    intentionally vague option to "Make Lots of Things Better" and list
    some ideas for how one might go about doing that.
    I'd mentor someone willing to do work on the literate programming
    version. See
    http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.pdf
    http://daly.axiom-developer.org/clojure.pamphlet (src)

    Even more interesting... It appears that the ePub standard allows
    embedded javascript. So ideally we would like to manipulate a
    canvas to show the ideas. For instance, I'd like to see a digital
    book that had a canvas element that showed the red-black-trie
    evolve, potentially interactively.

    Even more interesting... Write the generated javascript for the
    above ePub demonstration using ClojureScript

    I'd be willing to mentor any of those.

    More ideas that might bear interesting and desirable fruit:
    - Make an album with Overtone. (Kidding (but only a little bit (not
    kidding at all, actually (I bet we'd get some passionate proposals
    (and maybe even a record deal ;)))))
    I watched the overtone video shortly after finishing both the
    stanford machine learning course, the signals course and a
    genetics course.

    It would be possible to extract features from your favorite songs
    e.g ( http://www.ams.org/notices/200903/rtx090300356p.pdf ) using
    FFT signal processing. (signals) Use the overtone feature set to
    define the possible features. (overtone).

    It would be possible to rank the features of your favorite songs
    by listening to each song and constructing a "like" value for each
    song (e.g. hit the + key multiple times, or use a number to rate
    the song from 1 to 11 (ala spinal tap). (machine learning)

    Having ranked the songs, use the learning algorithm to predict
    the kinds of songs you like based on features. Use overtone to
    generate new songs with the most popular features (overtone).

    Use vector crossovers to generate new songs. (genetic programming).

    Rinse and repeat.

    Sort of a "sample" without samples :-)
    - The sidebar on the left of the GSoC page lists an opening for a
    Community Manager Internship. I think a lot of what I'm suggesting
    falls under that umbrella. "creating/editing documentation, helping
    migrate projects to newer versions of clojure, developing sample
    applications such as solutions for the alioth benchmarks, answering
    questions on IRC, administering/maintaing clojure.org, clojure.com,
    assemble, confluence, mycroft, etc."


    I guess what I'm saying is, at the end of the day: Let's add
    documentation to the list, but also add some other obviously fun
    projects and see what kind of proposals we receive. It doesn't mean we
    need to accept them, it just shows (IMO) we're very open minded about
    people who are passionate about building what /they/ care about, not
    necessarily what we care about. If some musician in grad school
    submitted a proposal to make an album exclusively with Overtone and
    published the source that would be a boon to the Overtone project IMO.
    If a sophomore in college wants to build some crazy parallelized Rube
    Goldberg machine with Clojure then I think we should at least
    entertain the idea of it. More than anything, I think we need to
    present the people who *might* do something like that with the face of
    a community that would genuinely appreciate it. I've met many of you
    personally, so I hardly think that's a stretch for us.


    This is getting really long so I apologize, but I'd like to offer up a
    bit of personal experience w/r/t GSoC:
    I did GSoC years ago for Plan9 (Inferno-OS specifically). I was not
    very familiar with their community, and I doubt many people have ever
    read a book about programming Limbo. As a result, a lot of the ideas
    that were listed were strangely specific from my limited undergrad
    perspective. I was interested in learning about Plan9 and
    contributing, not necessarily learning Plan9 to make a distributed
    authentication system that someone else wanted for reasons that were
    unknown to me and/or were not well described in the description. As a
    result, keep in mind that we will potentially have people submitting
    proposals to write Skynet 1.0 in 3 months who are doing their
    undergrad and may have only just had an introduction to lisp or
    scheme. Last note (I promise) is: potential mentors, this is not a
    small commitment. Trust me on that. It's as much your responsibility
    to steer someone toward success as it is theirs.
    I'm actually working on the ePub idea with a book so the
    "mentoring" would actually be more of a collaborative effort
    since it travels into what is, for me, new territory.

    There are still some things to demonstrate and a lot of reading
    of the ePub3 standard but it progresses slowly. An ePub book
    with embedded interactive canvas elements seems to be the best
    path to inspire people to write literate software.

    Tim Daly
    daly@axiom-developer.org



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  • Alexander Yakushev at Feb 29, 2012 at 12:03 pm
    Can someone confirm that Clojure/core has already sent an application GSoC
    participation? I am just wondering if core is already interested in this
    kind of event or the initiative currently comes only from mentors.

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  • Christopher Redinger at Feb 29, 2012 at 4:54 pm
    Core has not submitted the application. The application process just opened
    Monday and goes until March 9th. There have been some leaders among
    Clojure/dev that have stepped up to organize things. Keep
    watching http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012
    for more details. I said I would be more than happy to put my name on
    something that needs a single point of communication and submit the
    application if that's what's necessary. But honestly, with the community
    rallying behind this, I think things are moving along just fine.

    Having the community push this effort is more beneficial than having Core
    do it, except in the case that there is some part that is dependent on
    having an official organization like Core.
    On Wednesday, February 29, 2012 7:02:58 AM UTC-5, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    Can someone confirm that Clojure/core has already sent an application GSoC
    participation? I am just wondering if core is already interested in this
    kind of event or the initiative currently comes only from mentors.
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  • Alexander Yakushev at Mar 1, 2012 at 7:22 pm
    Here's one more idea but I'm not quite sure how to implement it so if
    anyone can confirm that it is doable then it would be nice to have this
    idea on the GSoC list.

    Clojure already has a set of benchmarks to test its performance but the
    data is not so easy to get for an common Clojure user (you need to download
    benchmarks, run it etc.). Things would be much more convenient if these
    benchmarks were run on each Clojure build in Hudson. This way everyone
    could easily track the performance enhancements and lapses following each
    commit. Even better would be a combination of benchmarks and a profiler
    that yields data that could be further compared across different commits.

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  • Alexander Yakushev at Mar 4, 2012 at 9:38 pm
    I hate to be boring but if the application has not been filed yet then now
    is the best time to do it. Only five days left, and it is good to have some
    spare time to correct the mistakes, you know:).

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  • Christopher Redinger at Mar 5, 2012 at 6:22 am
    I've created a new page in Confluence with questions from the application.

    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012+Application+Questions

    If some people can take a pass at getting answers posted to those
    questions, I can submit the application this week.

    Also needed:
    * Who is interested in being the backup admin (should something happen to
    cause me to be unable to perform those duties)?
    * I see primary mentors for many of the projects. Are there people willing
    to be back up mentors? Again, in case something prevents the primary mentor
    from doing so?
    On Sunday, March 4, 2012 4:37:53 PM UTC-5, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    I hate to be boring but if the application has not been filed yet then now
    is the best time to do it. Only five days left, and it is good to have some
    spare time to correct the mistakes, you know:).
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  • David Nolen at Mar 5, 2012 at 3:38 pm
    Thanks! Unless somebody else wants to - I'm willing to be the backup admin.

    David
    On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Christopher Redinger wrote:

    I've created a new page in Confluence with questions from the application.


    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012+Application+Questions

    If some people can take a pass at getting answers posted to those
    questions, I can submit the application this week.

    Also needed:
    * Who is interested in being the backup admin (should something happen to
    cause me to be unable to perform those duties)?
    * I see primary mentors for many of the projects. Are there people willing
    to be back up mentors? Again, in case something prevents the primary mentor
    from doing so?
    On Sunday, March 4, 2012 4:37:53 PM UTC-5, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    I hate to be boring but if the application has not been filed yet then
    now is the best time to do it. Only five days left, and it is good to have
    some spare time to correct the mistakes, you know:).
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  • Paul deGrandis at Mar 5, 2012 at 8:57 pm
    I'll happily be a backup mentor. I've gone through the Summer of Code
    program twice as a student (Nmap and PyPy).

    I'll actively help any mentor or pair with any student.

    Paul
    On Mar 5, 10:38 am, David Nolen wrote:
    Thanks! Unless somebody else wants to - I'm willing to be the backup admin.

    David

    On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Christopher Redinger wrote:






    I've created a new page in Confluence with questions from the application.
    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012+A...
    If some people can take a pass at getting answers posted to those
    questions, I can submit the application this week.
    Also needed:
    * Who is interested in being the backup admin (should something happen to
    cause me to be unable to perform those duties)?
    * I see primary mentors for many of the projects. Are there people willing
    to be back up mentors? Again, in case something prevents the primary mentor
    from doing so?
    On Sunday, March 4, 2012 4:37:53 PM UTC-5, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    I hate to be boring but if the application has not been filed yet then
    now is the best time to do it. Only five days left, and it is good to have
    some spare time to correct the mistakes, you know:).
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  • Devin Walters at Mar 13, 2012 at 3:06 am
    I'd also be happy to be a backup mentor. I've been part of the GSoC in the past.

    I know the official situation is that there is a 1:1 correspondence between mentor and student, but if anyone wants any additional support while mentoring I'd be happy to be a part of that as well.

    Cheers,
    '(Devin Walters)

    On Monday, March 5, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Paul deGrandis wrote:

    I'll happily be a backup mentor. I've gone through the Summer of Code
    program twice as a student (Nmap and PyPy).

    I'll actively help any mentor or pair with any student.

    Paul
    On Mar 5, 10:38 am, David Nolen <dnolen.li (http://dnolen.li)...@gmail.com (http://gmail.com)> wrote:
    Thanks! Unless somebody else wants to - I'm willing to be the backup admin.

    David

    On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 1:21 AM, Christopher Redinger (http://gmail.com)>wrote:






    I've created a new page in Confluence with questions from the application.
    http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012+A...
    If some people can take a pass at getting answers posted to those
    questions, I can submit the application this week.
    Also needed:
    * Who is interested in being the backup admin (should something happen to
    cause me to be unable to perform those duties)?
    * I see primary mentors for many of the projects. Are there people willing
    to be back up mentors? Again, in case something prevents the primary mentor
    from doing so?
    On Sunday, March 4, 2012 4:37:53 PM UTC-5, Alexander Yakushev wrote:

    I hate to be boring but if the application has not been filed yet then
    now is the best time to do it. Only five days left, and it is good to have
    some spare time to correct the mistakes, you know:).
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  • Alexander Yakushev at Mar 7, 2012 at 6:38 pm
    Great job answering the application questions, David! I was just wondering
    if Steve Yegge could vouch for Clojure since I remember him being very
    excited about the language, so maybe he might say a nice word for Clojure
    participation...

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