FAQ
I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
purge instead.

Your thoughts?

thanks, joe

Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
(Work) 614-677-1668
(Cell) 614-312-6715

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  • Toon Koppelaars at Apr 19, 2011 at 1:58 pm
    Create login-triggers for the schemas that they want it to be disabled.
    And execute

    Alter session set recyclebin=off;

    from that trigger?
    On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 3:55 PM, wrote:


    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    --
    Toon Koppelaars
    RuleGen BV
    Toon.Koppelaars_at_RuleGen.com
    www.RuleGen.com
    TheHelsinkiDeclaration.blogspot.com

    (co)Author: "Applied Mathematics for Database Professionals"
    www.rulegen.com/am4dp-backcover-text

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Rodd Holman at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:01 pm
    The purge option is the way to go. It's only one more word to add to the
    statement.
    On Apr 19, 2011 8:56 AM, wrote:
    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Michael Rosenblum at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:05 pm
    In my environment I prefer to have recycle been as it is, but to use "drop ... purge" whenever needed. And I trained my developers NOT to use this option at all - so I can restore tables after their mistakes (and these cases indeed happened), while they cannot make it worse.

    The real question is why would anybody complain about recycle been? Too many tables being created/dropped on the fly?

    Regards,
    Michael Rosenblum
    Dulcian Inc

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org] On Behalf Of TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com [TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 AM
    To: Oracle-L_at_FreeLists.org
    Subject: disable recyclebin?

    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire database but to disable for the session or do a drop table purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715
  • Guillermo Alan Bort at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:06 pm
    On what basis are you being pushed to disable recyclebin? and by whom?
    Alan.-
    On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:55 AM, wrote:


    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    Still researching as to why 3rd party vendor wants it turned off but
    thanks everyone.

    joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    From:
    Guillermo Alan Bort
    To:
    TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    Cc:
    Oracle-L_at_freelists.org
    Date:
    04/19/2011 10:07 AM
    Subject:
    Re: disable recyclebin?
    Sent by:
    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org

    On what basis are you being pushed to disable recyclebin? and by whom?
    Alan.-

    On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:55 AM, wrote:

    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715
  • Michael McMullen at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    What's the push? People don't like to see all the BIN$ tables in a tool? I
    guess my argument would be to the user that they have the option of not
    using the recyclebin by using purge so why should I disable for the entire
    db. They have the option to turn it off/on as they seem fit which seems
    pretty good to me.



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 AM
    To: Oracle-L_at_FreeLists.org
    Subject: disable recyclebin?



    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715
  • Ricardo Rivas at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:29 pm
    Is some kind of replication involved? I believe tools like GoldenGate cannot handle the recycle bin, in particular restoring from the recycle bin.

    Ricardo Rivas
    Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Michael McMullen
    Sender: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:17:21
    To:
    Reply-To: ganstadba_at_hotmail.com
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?

    What's the push? People don't like to see all the BIN$ tables in a tool? I
    guess my argument would be to the user that they have the option of not
    using the recyclebin by using purge so why should I disable for the entire
    db. They have the option to turn it off/on as they seem fit which seems
    pretty good to me.



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 AM
    To: Oracle-L_at_FreeLists.org
    Subject: disable recyclebin?



    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Mark W. Farnham at Apr 19, 2011 at 2:47 pm
    I like Toons' suggestion to do it by schema with a log on trigger. That
    should allow you to make use of it when indicated, especially with
    configurable off the shelf (COTS) application suites where you often cannot
    change the code or the ramifications of changing the code are unbounded. The
    capability is nice. The side effects of the change from not having a recycle
    bin to having a recycle bin are manifold and unpredictable in the general
    case. A lot more is involved in this consideration than just sticking a
    purge keyword on the end of a few drop statements.



    mwf



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Michael McMullen
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 10:17 AM
    To: Oracle-L_at_freelists.org
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?



    What's the push? People don't like to see all the BIN$ tables in a tool? I
    guess my argument would be to the user that they have the option of not
    using the recyclebin by using purge so why should I disable for the entire
    db. They have the option to turn it off/on as they seem fit which seems
    pretty good to me.



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 AM
    To: Oracle-L_at_FreeLists.org
    Subject: disable recyclebin?



    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715
  • Chitale, Hemant Krishnarao at Apr 20, 2011 at 3:27 am
    When the database is under severe pressure to drop and create segments,
    the presence of recyclebin may sometimes cause ORA-1652's because the
    'auto-clearance' of the recyclebin isn't fast enough.

    I've seen that twice.

    See Oracle Support Article "Bug 6977045 - ORA-1652 even though there is
    sufficient space in RECYCLE BIN [ID 6977045.8]"
    and read the text for Bug 6977045 -- there's a short explanation of a
    design decision on "extend or wait"

    Hemant K Chitale

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of
    TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 PM
    To: Oracle-L_at_freelists.org
    Subject: disable recyclebin?

    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire
    database but to disable for the session or do a drop table
    purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

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  • Nuno Souto at Apr 20, 2011 at 8:57 am
    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    in overcast Sydney, Australia
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au

    Chitale, Hemant Krishnarao wrote,on my timestamp of 20/04/2011 1:27 PM:
    When the database is under severe pressure to drop and create segments, the
    presence of recyclebin may sometimes cause ORA-1652's because the
    'auto-clearance' of the recyclebin isn't fast enough.

    I've seen that twice.

    See Oracle Support Article "***Bug 6977045 - ORA-1652 even though there is
    sufficient space in RECYCLE BIN [ID 6977045.8]*"

    and read the text for Bug 6977045-- there's a short explanation of a design
    decision on "extend or wait"

    Hemant K Chitale

    ***From:*oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    ***On Behalf Of*TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    ***Sent:*Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 PM
    ***To:*Oracle-L_at_freelists.org
    ***Subject:*disable recyclebin?


    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire database
    but to disable for the session or do a drop table purge instead.

    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com at Apr 20, 2011 at 9:11 am
    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    From:
    Nuno Souto
    To:
    oracle-l@freelists.org
    Date:
    04/20/2011 04:58 AM
    Subject:
    Re: disable recyclebin?
    Sent by:
    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org

    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    in overcast Sydney, Australia
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au

    Chitale, Hemant Krishnarao wrote,on my timestamp of 20/04/2011 1:27 PM:
    When the database is under severe pressure to drop and create segments, the
    presence of recyclebin may sometimes cause ORA-1652's because the
    'auto-clearance' of the recyclebin isn't fast enough.

    I've seen that twice.

    See Oracle Support Article "***Bug 6977045 - ORA-1652 even though there is
    sufficient space in RECYCLE BIN [ID 6977045.8]*"

    and read the text for Bug 6977045-- there's a short explanation of a design
    decision on "extend or wait"

    Hemant K Chitale

    ***From:*oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    ***On Behalf
    Of*TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com
    ***Sent:*Tuesday, April 19, 2011 9:55 PM
    ***To:*Oracle-L_at_freelists.org
    ***Subject:*disable recyclebin?


    I'm getting push to disable the recyclebin on a 10.2.0.4 database?

    I'm pushing back that its not a good idea to disable it for the entire database
    but to disable for the session or do a drop table purge instead.
    Your thoughts?

    thanks, joe
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Nuno Souto at Apr 20, 2011 at 3:44 pm
    None whatsoever. That's why I have a DR site, backups, 2-hourly archived redo
    logs, etcetc.
    And for development and test, there is an overnight backup and quite frankly: if
    they drop a table inadvertently, I'll bang their heads together.;)
    Enough incentive so far: in 4 years they lost only 6 tables and those were
    promptly (3 hours) restored in DR and reimported from there. Good enough for
    them and for me.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    in overcast Sydney, Australia
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au

    TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote,on my timestamp of 20/04/2011 7:11 PM:
    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715





    From: Nuno Souto
    To: oracle-l@freelists.org
    Date: 04/20/2011 04:58 AM
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?
    Sent by: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    in overcast Sydney, Australia
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au



    Chitale, Hemant Krishnarao wrote,on my timestamp of 20/04/2011 1:27 PM:
    When the database is under severe pressure to drop and create segments, the
    presence of recyclebin may sometimes cause ORA-1652's because the
    'auto-clearance' of the recyclebin isn't fast enough.

    I've seen that twice.

    See Oracle Support Article "***Bug 6977045 - ORA-1652 even though there is
    sufficient space in RECYCLE BIN [ID 6977045.8]*"

    and read the text for Bug 6977045-- there's a short explanation of a design
    decision on "extend or wait"

    Hemant K Chitale
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Wolfgang Breitling at Apr 20, 2011 at 4:17 pm
    I'm with Nuno on this. We survived several releases of Oracle without a recyclebin ( btw, I also turn it off in Windows - if I have to use Windows ). While it may come in handy at occasions that doesn't make it a necessity. Everyone needs to learn that there are consequences to every action, so think twice before you do something destructive - and a drop is not the only destructive action possible.
    On 2011-04-20, at 3:11 AM, TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote:


    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715





    From: Nuno Souto
    To: oracle-l@freelists.org
    Date: 04/20/2011 04:58 AM
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?
    Sent by: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org




    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Mark W. Farnham at Apr 20, 2011 at 5:00 pm
    I tend to agree, with an exemption for things like student databases and
    other sorts of things being used by non-professionals. And of course those
    databases would be entirely separate from anything remotely smacking of
    production. (And the dev and test databases ARE production to developers and
    testers, with a higher waste cost per outage hour than many production
    databases.) Even for students you might want it off for some schemas though,
    so I still like Toons' idea of triggers for that case.



    Cary mentioned a theory he has that if one of those windows confirmation
    chicklets popped up that read "Hit ok if you want to end the universe" that
    either nearly everyone or everyone would hit the doggone thing anyway.



    mwf



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Wolfgang Breitling
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:17 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?



    I'm with Nuno on this. We survived several releases of Oracle without a
    recyclebin ( btw, I also turn it off in Windows - if I have to use Windows
    ). While it may come in handy at occasions that doesn't make it a necessity.
    Everyone needs to learn that there are consequences to every action, so
    think twice before you do something destructive - and a drop is not the only
    destructive action possible.



    On 2011-04-20, at 3:11 AM, TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote:

    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    From:

    Nuno Souto

    To:

    oracle-l@freelists.org

    Date:

    04/20/2011 04:58 AM

    Subject:

    Re: disable recyclebin?

    Sent by:

    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org



    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.
  • Guillermo Alan Bort at Apr 20, 2011 at 6:39 pm
    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I leave it
    on.

    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished the
    consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in the
    schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD database.

    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already pissed
    about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my mistake I
    restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total downtime of 10
    minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave Recycle Bin on.

    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people having to
    learn that there are consequences is a good argument against using that
    feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the supermarket because
    people need to learn the real value of things or that you don't use
    computers because people need to learn to calculate stuff by themselves.
    Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in the event of a MISTAKE, are
    you above making mistakes?

    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work tomorrow...

    Cheers
    Alan.-
    On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Mark W. Farnham wrote:

    I tend to agree, with an exemption for things like student databases and
    other sorts of things being used by non-professionals. And of course those
    databases would be entirely separate from anything remotely smacking of
    production. (And the dev and test databases ARE production to developers and
    testers, with a higher waste cost per outage hour than many production
    databases.) Even for students you might want it off for some schemas though,
    so I still like Toons� idea of triggers for that case.



    Cary mentioned a theory he has that if one of those windows confirmation
    chicklets popped up that read �Hit ok if you want to end the universe� that
    either nearly everyone or everyone would hit the doggone thing anyway.



    mwf



    *From:* oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:
    oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org] *On Behalf Of *Wolfgang Breitling
    *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:17 PM
    *To:* oracle Freelists
    *Cc:* TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    *Subject:* Re: disable recyclebin?



    I'm with Nuno on this. We survived several releases of Oracle without a
    recyclebin ( btw, I also turn it off in Windows - if I have to use Windows
    ). While it may come in handy at occasions that doesn't make it a necessity.
    Everyone needs to learn that there are consequences to every action, so
    think twice before you do something destructive - and a drop is not the only
    destructive action possible.



    On 2011-04-20, at 3:11 AM, TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote:




    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715




    From:

    Nuno Souto

    To:

    oracle-l@freelists.org

    Date:

    04/20/2011 04:58 AM

    Subject:

    Re: disable recyclebin?

    Sent by:

    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org


    ------------------------------




    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Wolfgang Breitling at Apr 20, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    There is no such thing as a free lunch. As far as features are concerned there are always costs or side-effects. At the very least having those recyclebin objects around consumes space and time during backups. If I can avoid those costs by being careful when performing destructive actions and checking twice then I shall. Such actions should be scripted and how much effort does it take to put in a statement which checks for the database name and aborts if it is production. That should be a standard piece of code in every script and thus require a deliberate action to remove if you really mean production.
    Of course, as Mark pointed out, production can have many meanings and damaging a dev/test database by mistake can be just as costly as doing it in a "production" database.
    On 2011-04-20, at 12:39 PM, Guillermo Alan Bort wrote:

    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I leave it on.

    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished the consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in the schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD database.

    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already pissed about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my mistake I restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total downtime of 10 minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave Recycle Bin on.

    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people having to learn that there are consequences is a good argument against using that feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the supermarket because people need to learn the real value of things or that you don't use computers because people need to learn to calculate stuff by themselves. Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in the event of a MISTAKE, are you above making mistakes?

    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work tomorrow...
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Lange, Kevin G at Apr 20, 2011 at 8:07 pm
    I had this conversation before with a group of people.

    One guy in the conversation said "Why do you need all that protection ?
    Don't you trust yourself ?"
    And another answered "Of course I trust myself. It's the others I do
    not trust."

    My response was ..... "You trust yourself ? Fool !"

    Like the Physician who treats himself, or the Lawyer who defends
    himself, or the Accountant who does his taxes, the DBA who trusts
    himself not to make a mistake is the one who will one day destroy the
    database with no chance of recovery.

    Mark Twice ... Cut Once.

    Not only good in Carpentry, but in prety much every other profession.

    Anything you can put into a job to stop you from doing something wrong
    on a 2 am call from the vice president of the company is a good thing.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Wolfgang Breitling
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:58 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au; Guillermo Alan Bort
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. As far as features are concerned
    there are always costs or side-effects. At the very least having those
    recyclebin objects around consumes space and time during backups. If I
    can avoid those costs by being careful when performing destructive
    actions and checking twice then I shall. Such actions should be scripted
    and how much effort does it take to put in a statement which checks for
    the database name and aborts if it is production. That should be a
    standard piece of code in every script and thus require a deliberate
    action to remove if you really mean production.
    Of course, as Mark pointed out, production can have many meanings and
    damaging a dev/test database by mistake can be just as costly as doing
    it in a "production" database.
    On 2011-04-20, at 12:39 PM, Guillermo Alan Bort wrote:

    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I
    leave it on.
    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished
    the consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in
    the schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD
    database.
    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already
    pissed about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my
    mistake I restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total
    downtime of 10 minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave
    Recycle Bin on.
    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people
    having to learn that there are consequences is a good argument against
    using that feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the
    supermarket because people need to learn the real value of things or
    that you don't use computers because people need to learn to calculate
    stuff by themselves. Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in
    the event of a MISTAKE, are you above making mistakes?
    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work
    tomorrow...

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

    This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
    proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity
    to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
    recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified
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  • Mark W. Farnham at Apr 21, 2011 at 7:03 pm
    No one said not to set things up so you can always recover from "oopses."
    The question is whether recycle bin is a good way to do that in a particular
    situation. IF you decide recycle bin is net productive in a given setting,
    please don't let it be the only way you have to get things back. That is
    foolishly trusting the errant dropper to let you know before the space is
    re-used. If the call is going to come at 2 AM, there is a good chance you'll
    be reloading from an intentionally delayed replicant, a split mirror
    flashback, a partial restore on another machine, or some other method I've
    missed anyway.

    It was humorous to have someone suggest that I'm not paranoid enough
    though...

    mwf
    "You're not paranoid to be risk averse if the world really is out to get
    you." (the 2nd DBA mantra)

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Lange, Kevin G
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:07 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?

    I had this conversation before with a group of people.

    One guy in the conversation said "Why do you need all that protection ?
    Don't you trust yourself ?"
    And another answered "Of course I trust myself. It's the others I do not
    trust."

    My response was ..... "You trust yourself ? Fool !"

    Like the Physician who treats himself, or the Lawyer who defends himself, or
    the Accountant who does his taxes, the DBA who trusts himself not to make a
    mistake is the one who will one day destroy the database with no chance of
    recovery.

    Mark Twice ... Cut Once.

    Not only good in Carpentry, but in prety much every other profession.

    Anything you can put into a job to stop you from doing something wrong on a
    2 am call from the vice president of the company is a good thing.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Wolfgang Breitling
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:58 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au; Guillermo Alan Bort
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. As far as features are concerned
    there are always costs or side-effects. At the very least having those
    recyclebin objects around consumes space and time during backups. If I can
    avoid those costs by being careful when performing destructive actions and
    checking twice then I shall. Such actions should be scripted and how much
    effort does it take to put in a statement which checks for the database name
    and aborts if it is production. That should be a standard piece of code in
    every script and thus require a deliberate action to remove if you really
    mean production.
    Of course, as Mark pointed out, production can have many meanings and
    damaging a dev/test database by mistake can be just as costly as doing it in
    a "production" database.
    On 2011-04-20, at 12:39 PM, Guillermo Alan Bort wrote:

    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I
    leave it on.
    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished
    the consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in the
    schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD database.
    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already
    pissed about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my
    mistake I restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total downtime
    of 10 minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave Recycle Bin on.
    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people
    having to learn that there are consequences is a good argument against using
    that feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the supermarket
    because people need to learn the real value of things or that you don't use
    computers because people need to learn to calculate stuff by themselves.
    Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in the event of a MISTAKE, are
    you above making mistakes?
    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work
    tomorrow...

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

    This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
    proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to
    which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
    recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that
    any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If
    you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying
    to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.

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  • Lange, Kevin G at Apr 21, 2011 at 7:28 pm
    I was born paranoid. Takes me more than one or six checks to make sure
    I am where I am supposed to be before I do a simple data delete.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mark W. Farnham
    Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:04 PM
    To: Lange, Kevin G; 'oracle Freelists'
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?

    No one said not to set things up so you can always recover from
    "oopses."
    The question is whether recycle bin is a good way to do that in a
    particular situation. IF you decide recycle bin is net productive in a
    given setting, please don't let it be the only way you have to get
    things back. That is foolishly trusting the errant dropper to let you
    know before the space is re-used. If the call is going to come at 2 AM,
    there is a good chance you'll be reloading from an intentionally delayed
    replicant, a split mirror flashback, a partial restore on another
    machine, or some other method I've missed anyway.

    It was humorous to have someone suggest that I'm not paranoid enough
    though...

    mwf
    "You're not paranoid to be risk averse if the world really is out to get
    you." (the 2nd DBA mantra)

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org

    On Behalf Of Lange, Kevin G
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 4:07 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?

    I had this conversation before with a group of people.

    One guy in the conversation said "Why do you need all that protection ?
    Don't you trust yourself ?"
    And another answered "Of course I trust myself. It's the others I do
    not trust."

    My response was ..... "You trust yourself ? Fool !"

    Like the Physician who treats himself, or the Lawyer who defends
    himself, or the Accountant who does his taxes, the DBA who trusts
    himself not to make a mistake is the one who will one day destroy the
    database with no chance of recovery.

    Mark Twice ... Cut Once.

    Not only good in Carpentry, but in prety much every other profession.

    Anything you can put into a job to stop you from doing something wrong
    on a
    2 am call from the vice president of the company is a good thing.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Wolfgang Breitling
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:58 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au; Guillermo Alan Bort
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. As far as features are concerned
    there are always costs or side-effects. At the very least having those
    recyclebin objects around consumes space and time during backups. If I
    can avoid those costs by being careful when performing destructive
    actions and checking twice then I shall. Such actions should be scripted
    and how much effort does it take to put in a statement which checks for
    the database name and aborts if it is production. That should be a
    standard piece of code in every script and thus require a deliberate
    action to remove if you really mean production.
    Of course, as Mark pointed out, production can have many meanings and
    damaging a dev/test database by mistake can be just as costly as doing
    it in a "production" database.
    On 2011-04-20, at 12:39 PM, Guillermo Alan Bort wrote:

    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I
    leave it on.
    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished
    the consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in
    the schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD
    database.
    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already
    pissed about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my
    mistake I restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total
    downtime of 10 minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave
    Recycle Bin on.
    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people
    having to learn that there are consequences is a good argument against
    using that feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the
    supermarket because people need to learn the real value of things or
    that you don't use computers because people need to learn to calculate
    stuff by themselves.
    Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in the event of a MISTAKE,
    are you above making mistakes?
    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work
    tomorrow...

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

    This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
    proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to
    which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
    recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified
    that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is
    prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
    sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

    This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
    proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity
    to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
    recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified
    that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is
    prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
    sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.

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    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Chitale, Hemant Krishnarao at Apr 21, 2011 at 3:27 am
    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I
    leave it on.



    You were "lucky". RECYCLEBIN has no "GUARANTEE"d retention.
    Table/Index segments in a Recyclebin may be auto-purged if the
    tablespace is running low on free space.

    So a developer who thinks "I don't need to worry about DROPs, I can
    always get my table back" may find, 6 hours after dropping a table, that
    he *cannot* get his table back.



    (Conversely, the Note# 6977045.8 and Bug# 6977045 mean that sometimes
    the auto-purge isn't quick enough, resulting in ORA-1652's in the middle
    of a production batch !).





    Hemant K Chitale

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Guillermo Alan Bort
    Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:39 AM
    To: mwf_at_rsiz.com
    Cc: breitliw_at_centrexcc.com; oracle Freelists; TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com;
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?



    I had one experience where recycle bin saved me a lot of work, so I
    leave it on.

    I was working on a data refresh from a Prod DB to a Dev DB. I finished
    the consistent export from Prod and promptly dropped all the tables in
    the schema only to realize that I had dropped the tables in the PROD
    database.

    A restore would have taken several hours and customer was already pissed
    about delays in this implementation. After informing them of my mistake
    I restored all the tables from the recycle bin with a total downtime of
    10 minutes (as opposed to several hours!). So... I leave Recycle Bin on.

    And I don't think that if you have a way to minimize impact people
    having to learn that there are consequences is a good argument against
    using that feature... it's like saying you don't buy stuff in the
    supermarket because people need to learn the real value of things or
    that you don't use computers because people need to learn to calculate
    stuff by themselves. Recycle Bin is there to make your life easier in
    the event of a MISTAKE, are you above making mistakes?

    I seem to be ranting a lot today... good thing i don't work tomorrow...

    Cheers
    Alan.-

    This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the addressee, do not disclose, copy, circulate or in any other way use or rely on the information contained in this email or any attachments. If received in error, notify the sender immediately and delete this email and any attachments from your system. Emails cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as the message and any attachments could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, delayed, incomplete or amended. Standard Chartered PLC and its subsidiaries do not accept liability for damage caused by this email or any attachments and may monitor email traffic.



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  • Holvoet, Jo at Apr 21, 2011 at 7:36 am
    "Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If
    you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying
    'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even
    have time to dry."



    Terry Pratchett (Thief of Time)

    mvg / regards,

    Jo Holvoet





    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Mark W. Farnham
    Sent: woensdag 20 april 2011 19:00
    To: breitliw_at_centrexcc.com; 'oracle Freelists'
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    Subject: RE: disable recyclebin?



    I tend to agree, with an exemption for things like student databases and
    other sorts of things being used by non-professionals. And of course
    those databases would be entirely separate from anything remotely
    smacking of production. (And the dev and test databases ARE production
    to developers and testers, with a higher waste cost per outage hour than
    many production databases.) Even for students you might want it off for
    some schemas though, so I still like Toons' idea of triggers for that
    case.



    Cary mentioned a theory he has that if one of those windows confirmation
    chicklets popped up that read "Hit ok if you want to end the universe"
    that either nearly everyone or everyone would hit the doggone thing
    anyway.



    mwf



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Wolfgang Breitling
    Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:17 PM
    To: oracle Freelists
    Cc: TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    Subject: Re: disable recyclebin?



    I'm with Nuno on this. We survived several releases of Oracle without a
    recyclebin ( btw, I also turn it off in Windows - if I have to use
    Windows ). While it may come in handy at occasions that doesn't make it
    a necessity. Everyone needs to learn that there are consequences to
    every action, so think twice before you do something destructive - and a
    drop is not the only destructive action possible.



    On 2011-04-20, at 3:11 AM, TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote:



    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715

    From:

    Nuno Souto

    To:

    oracle-l@freelists.org

    Date:

    04/20/2011 04:58 AM

    Subject:

    Re: disable recyclebin?

    Sent by:

    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org



    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.
  • Andrew Kerber at Apr 21, 2011 at 1:26 pm
    And then there are some DBAs I have run into who seem to think the drop
    table command is actually 'drop table purge;' The recyclebin
    is good not just for when you lose track of where you are working, but when
    you make a typo because the table names are too similar.
    On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:36 AM, Holvoet, Jo wrote:

    "Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you
    put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying
    'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have
    time to dry."



    � Terry Pratchett (Thief of Time)



    mvg / regards,

    Jo Holvoet




    ------------------------------

    *From:* oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:
    oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark W. Farnham
    *Sent:* woensdag 20 april 2011 19:00
    *To:* breitliw_at_centrexcc.com; 'oracle Freelists'
    *Cc:* TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    *Subject:* RE: disable recyclebin?



    I tend to agree, with an exemption for things like student databases and
    other sorts of things being used by non-professionals. And of course those
    databases would be entirely separate from anything remotely smacking of
    production. (And the dev and test databases ARE production to developers and
    testers, with a higher waste cost per outage hour than many production
    databases.) Even for students you might want it off for some schemas though,
    so I still like Toons� idea of triggers for that case.



    Cary mentioned a theory he has that if one of those windows confirmation
    chicklets popped up that read �Hit ok if you want to end the universe� that
    either nearly everyone or everyone would hit the doggone thing anyway.



    mwf



    *From:* oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:
    oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org] *On Behalf Of *Wolfgang Breitling
    *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:17 PM
    *To:* oracle Freelists
    *Cc:* TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com; dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    *Subject:* Re: disable recyclebin?



    I'm with Nuno on this. We survived several releases of Oracle without a
    recyclebin ( btw, I also turn it off in Windows - if I have to use Windows
    ). While it may come in handy at occasions that doesn't make it a necessity.
    Everyone needs to learn that there are consequences to every action, so
    think twice before you do something destructive - and a drop is not the only
    destructive action possible.



    On 2011-04-20, at 3:11 AM, TESTAJ3_at_nationwide.com wrote:




    Nuno, don't you have concern about inadvertent drops of tables?

    joe

    _______________________________________
    Joe Testa, Oracle Certified Professional
    Senior Engineering & Administration Lead
    (Work) 614-677-1668
    (Cell) 614-312-6715



    From:

    Nuno Souto

    To:

    oracle-l@freelists.org

    Date:

    04/20/2011 04:58 AM

    Subject:

    Re: disable recyclebin?

    Sent by:

    oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org


    ------------------------------




    And that's one of the reasons why recycle bin is disabled in all my dbs.

    --
    Andrew W. Kerber

    'If at first you dont succeed, dont take up skydiving.'

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Dbvision_at_iinet.net.au at Apr 21, 2011 at 1:39 am
    My point exactly. That's why we have a DR facility setup.
    It's to - wait for it - recover from *disasters*!
    Which are a lot more widespread in definition that just someone inadvertently
    dropping a table.
    Although of course losing any table is part of that definition and why it is
    covered by DR.
    If I didn't have that setup then recyclebin might be a consideration.
    As is it's totally redundant, buggy and therefore not used.
    Keep it simple is an essential part of any DR setup.;)

    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au

    On Thu Apr 21 4:07, "Lange, Kevin G" sent:
    I had this conversation before with a group of people.

    One guy in the conversation said "Why do you need all that protection ?
    Don't you trust yourself ?"
    And another answered "Of course I trust myself. It's the others I do
    not trust."

    My response was ..... "You trust yourself ? Fool !"

    Like the Physician who treats himself, or the Lawyer who defends
    himself, or the Accountant who does his taxes, the DBA who trusts
    himself not to make a mistake is the one who will one day destroy the
    database with no chance of recovery.

    Mark Twice ... Cut Once.

    Not only good in Carpentry, but in prety much every other profession.

    Anything you can put into a job to stop you from doing something wrong
    on a 2 am call from the vice president of the company is a good thing.
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l

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