FAQ
Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

Thoughts?

Chris Taylor
Sr. Oracle DBA
Ingram Barge Company
Nashville, TN 37205
Office: 615-517-3355
Cell: 615-354-4799
Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

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  • SHEEHAN, JEREMY at Aug 27, 2009 at 1:51 pm
    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running instance.

    Cons - It's expensive....

    Jeremy

    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.
  • Matthew Zito at Aug 27, 2009 at 1:59 pm
    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around synchronous replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much the gold standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my large customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.

    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over storage level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and works across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on as a DR solution.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?


    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running instance.

    Cons - It's expensive....

    Jeremy

    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Hameed, Amir at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:35 pm
    SRDF is a nice technology but comes with a premium. To replicate 1TB of
    storage, a total of 4TB is required (source + R1 + R2 + target);
    something to be kept in mind. It also requires a higher bandwidth when
    compared to other replication technologies like Symantec's VVR and EMC's
    Recover Point.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Matthew Zito

    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:59 AM
    To: Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com;
    Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote

    site via SAN tool?



    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around synchronous
    replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much the gold
    standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my large
    customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.


    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over storage
    level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and works
    across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on as a DR
    solution.


    Matt



    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote

    site via SAN tool?


    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm
    fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and
    unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database
    finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running
    instance.


    Cons - It's expensive....


    Jeremy


    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail
    unless you really need to.


    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David

    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site

    via SAN tool?


    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to
    another in a remote location?


    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles
    across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any
    block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the
    remote LUN at the remote site.


    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a
    hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.


    Thoughts?


    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email:

    chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com


    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are
    confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named
    recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents
    of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them
    for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.




    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Taylor, Chris David at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:39 pm
    We're getting off track here a bit...I'm not really interested in EMC SRDF. I targeting the HP Continous Access (CA) product on an EVA 8x00 SAN.

    I'm hoping someone "out there" is doing this and is on this list :)

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    From: Hameed, Amir
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:36 AM
    To: mzito_at_gridapp.com; Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; Taylor, Chris David; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    SRDF is a nice technology but comes with a premium. To replicate 1TB of storage, a total of 4TB is required (source + R1 + R2 + target); something to be kept in mind. It also requires a higher bandwidth when compared to other replication technologies like Symantec's VVR and EMC's Recover Point.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Matthew Zito
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:59 AM
    To: Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around synchronous replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much the gold standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my large customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.

    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over storage level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and works across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on as a DR solution.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running instance.

    Cons - It's expensive....

    Jeremy

    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Hameed, Amir at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:42 pm
    You need to make sure that whatever product you use maintains
    write-order fidelity otherwise the replication will be no good.

    From: Taylor, Chris David


    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:39 AM
    To: Hameed, Amir; 'mzito_at_gridapp.com'; 'Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com';
    'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote

    site via SAN tool?



    We're getting off track here a bit...I'm not really interested
    in EMC SRDF. I targeting the HP Continous Access (CA) product on an
    EVA 8x00 SAN.


    I'm hoping someone "out there" is doing this and is on this list
    :)




    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are

    confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named
    recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents
    of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them
    for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.



    From: Hameed, Amir
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:36 AM
    To: mzito_at_gridapp.com; Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; Taylor, Chris
    David; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote

    site via SAN tool?



    SRDF is a nice technology but comes with a premium. To replicate
    1TB of storage, a total of 4TB is required (source + R1 + R2 + target);
    something to be kept in mind. It also requires a higher bandwidth when
    compared to other replication technologies like Symantec's VVR and EMC's
    Recover Point.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Matthew Zito

    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:59 AM
    To: Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com;
    ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to

    remote site via SAN tool?



    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around
    synchronous replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much
    the gold standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my
    large customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.


    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over
    storage level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and
    works across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on
    as a DR solution.


    Matt



    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of
    SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to

    remote site via SAN tool?


    We use EMC's SRDF method for
    replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I
    can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh
    of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken
    from a running instance.


    Cons - It's expensive....


    Jeremy


    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this
    e-mail unless you really need to.


    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David

    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to

    remote site via SAN tool?


    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one
    SAN to another in a remote location?


    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE
    datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based,
    so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated
    to the remote LUN at the remote site.


    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons?
    I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is
    doable.


    Thoughts?


    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email:

    chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com


    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments
    are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named
    recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents
    of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them
    for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.




    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Matthew Zito at Aug 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm
    HP CA does, and all storage-based replication products do at this point.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Hameed, Amir
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 10:42 AM
    To: Taylor, Chris David; Matthew Zito; Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?


    You need to make sure that whatever product you use maintains write-order fidelity otherwise the replication will be no good.

    From: Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:39 AM
    To: Hameed, Amir; 'mzito_at_gridapp.com'; 'Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com'; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    We're getting off track here a bit...I'm not really interested in EMC SRDF. I targeting the HP Continous Access (CA) product on an EVA 8x00 SAN.

    I'm hoping someone "out there" is doing this and is on this list :)

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    ________________________________

    From: Hameed, Amir
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:36 AM
    To: mzito_at_gridapp.com; Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; Taylor, Chris David; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    SRDF is a nice technology but comes with a premium. To replicate 1TB of storage, a total of 4TB is required (source + R1 + R2 + target); something to be kept in mind. It also requires a higher bandwidth when compared to other replication technologies like Symantec's VVR and EMC's Recover Point.

    ________________________________

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Matthew Zito
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:59 AM
    To: Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around synchronous replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much the gold standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my large customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.

    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over storage level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and works across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on as a DR solution.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running instance.

    Cons - It's expensive....

    Jeremy

    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Matthew Zito at Aug 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm
    I'm afraid this is incorrect. To be clear, such an architecture is possible, and is usually used for snapshotted replication - i.e. you have a source, a BCV pair that is your R1, you synchronize BCVs periodically, and snap them, which is how you would do point in time replication in a Symmetrix environment.

    However, equally valid is to have your primary hypers be the R1 configuration, with the R2s at a remote site. Indeed, this is the recommended/default configuration for the Symmetrix, since it offers continuous protection.

    As far as the other solutions you mention - RecoverPoint is nice, but requires a very specific configuration, and is definitely off the mainstream. As far as the bandwidth utilization - I'm not sure how RP would offer lower bandwidth, except if you've custom integrated your database with their solution and were using it for point in time snapping.

    VVR offers no benefits over DataGuard, except that you can replicate the Oracle home as well. Beyond that, it runs on a host level, so you still have additional CPU cycles being spent on replication housekeeping, and it requires similar storage configurations on both sides in order to function properly.

    The way I look at it, replication at a storage array level pros:
    - Replicate anything - replicate not just your datafiles, but your oracle_home, your scripts, your backup locations, your third-party agents, everything. When I was at EMC, I even had a customer replicate their entire datacenter by running diskless servers booting off of a Symmetrix where everything was replicated to a remote datacenter

    Storage admins problem - the DBAs don't have to worry about care, feeding, housekeeping, the storage team manages it
    Very time-tested and reliable - even outside of SRDF, storage based replication technologies have all been proven to work time and time again

    Storage level replication cons:
    - Like swinging a very big hammer - it's a heavy tool, not a finesse solution - you get very few controls over what happens, limited number of supported configs, it can be bandwidth inefficient, and can require a lot of infrastructure

    Often requires dedicated infrastructure - dedicated WAN links, SAN switches, DWDM, etc. etc.

    Application level replication pros:
    - More efficient - since the application is doing the replication, it knows more about what needs to be pushed where, and hence can use less bandwidth/infrastructure resources

    Finesse solution - things like apply delays, multipoint delivery, opening the database read-only, all very elegant options that are not usually available with storage level replication

    Application level replication cons:
    - Cost - you have to pay for application licensing for the target side, something you typically don't have to do for storage replication

    More DBA work - now you are responsible for the care and feeding of the replication, and I can tell you, DataGuard is vastly harder to set up than SRDF or SnapMirror
    Higher CPU utilization - after all, your host now has to push those byes around, instead of a dedicated box or storage array.

    Just my .02.

    Matt
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Hameed, Amir
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 10:35 AM
    To: Matthew Zito; Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?


    SRDF is a nice technology but comes with a premium. To replicate 1TB of storage, a total of 4TB is required (source + R1 + R2 + target); something to be kept in mind. It also requires a higher bandwidth when compared to other replication technologies like Symantec's VVR and EMC's Recover Point.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Matthew Zito
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:59 AM
    To: Jeremy.Sheehan_at_fpl.com; ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    I agree that there are a lot of concerns around synchronous replication of datafiles, but certainly, this is pretty much the gold standard in large database shops. Probably every one of my large customers uses something like SRDF for their DR.

    I think that Data Guard offers many advantages over storage level replication, but it is indeed reliable, time tested, and works across any application technology, making it easy to sign off on as a DR solution.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of SHEEHAN, JEREMY
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 9:51 AM
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; 'Oracle L'
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    We use EMC's SRDF method for replication/backups/refreshes. I'm fairly new to it, but as far as I can see, it's reliable and unbelievably fast. I've seen a full refresh of a 1.7 TB database finish in less than 2 hours. The refresh was taken from a running instance.

    Cons - It's expensive....

    Jeremy

    P Consider the environment. Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Lyall Barbour at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    Isn't that kinda like Oracle's DataGuard?

    Original Message -----
    From: "Taylor, Chris David"
    To: "'Oracle L'"
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via
    SAN tool?
    Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:42:54 -0500

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another
    in a remote location? We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate
    LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN.  The replication is block
    based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately
    replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site. Is anyone doing anything
    similar to this?  Pros? Cons?  I have a hard time imagining that this is
    a good idea but perhaps it is doable. Thoughts? Chris TaylorSr. Oracle
    DBAIngram Barge CompanyNashville, TN 37205Office: 615-517-3355Cell:
    615-354-4799Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

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  • Taylor, Chris David at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:05 pm
    No not really. In a SAN replication scenario, each data block is replicated in either sync or async mode - each write (redo, archive, and datafile writes) are replicated as they occur so you have to have a big "pipe" between your sites.

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Lyall Barbour
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:01 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Re: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Isn't that kinda like Oracle's DataGuard?

    Original Message -----
    From: "Taylor, Chris David"
    To: "'Oracle L'"
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?
    Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:42:54 -0500

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.

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  • Nuno Souto at Aug 27, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Taylor, Chris David wrote,on my timestamp of 27/08/2009 11:42 PM:
    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another
    in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a
    WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that
    changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN
    at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard
    time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.
    Wouldn't have a clue about the HP solution. Replicating our DW db at the moment
    using EMC's Clarion synchronous replication over a dark fibre network to a DR
    site. 1.5TB size.
    The major determinant for it working is to have ALL luns for your db in one
    single synchronous replication group. More than one group and you'll have a
    corrupt replicated db.
    Synchronous SAN replication involves a performance penalty on ALL writes, not
    just data/index writes. Ie: temp and undo, all get written to both sites. That
    means: wide pipes needed. Ours does 400MB/s aggregate total and is *just*
    enough at the moment.

    About to start exploring a Dataguard alternative in September, to reduce the
    amount of data we have to send. The cost of upgrading that 400MB/s pipe is
    stratospheric, while with DG we only have to send 500GB of logs a day and we can
    wear a small delay in synch. Means maximum performance option of DG is fine.

    --
    Cheers
    Nuno Souto
    in sunny Sydney, Australia
    dbvision_at_iinet.net.au
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Goulet, Richard at Aug 27, 2009 at 3:05 pm
    Chris,


    Pros:


    For you it's extremely easy to set up. You just sit back
    and watch the Unix admin do all of the work. I like that.
    If there is a problem with the solution your not on the
    carpet for it.
    If and when you upgrade of patch the remote system gets the
    update as well, less work. Assuming that ORACLE_HOME is replicated as
    well.

    Cons:


    If the DR database doesn't start for any reason you know
    who's to blame. You of course.
    If your database expands onto new luns they may or may not be
    included in the replication works.
    Adding a new lun in some products requires downtime because
    you have to rebuild the remote system.
    You need a LARGE network pipe between the sites and it HAS to
    be reliable.
    If you do have a network issue between the sites your
    database can hang because the replication software is bogged down. Not
    likely to occur immediately or in the event of a short outage, but
    longer outages will get there sooner or later.

    As for expense, yes these solutions are expensive. There's the cost
    of two identical SANs, the network connection, and the software. But
    Oracle EE isn't a drop in the bucket either. On the other hand if
    you've already got EE then replicating via Data Guard may be more cost
    effective, especially if your not using the standby database as a
    reporting instance and the network pipe isn't large or reliable.




    Dick Goulet
    Senior Oracle DBA
    PAREXEL International



    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org
    On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN
    tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another
    in a remote location?


    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a
    WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that
    changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN
    at the remote site.


    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard
    time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.


    Thoughts?


    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com


    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential
    and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please
    notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message
    without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose,
    or storing or copying the information on any medium.
  • Tanel Poder at Aug 27, 2009 at 3:52 pm
    With storage level replication, corruptions coming from Oracle/OS software
    or host/HBA hardware get replicated to DR site. With Data Guard, many
    corruptions in redo stream would be detected and not propagated to DR
    database, thanks to checksums and sanity checks.

    Also, human errors, such accidential datafile deletion, overwriting or
    formatting wrong device etc get replicated without a question and ability to
    roll it back.

    In my mind the biggest benefit of storage level replication would be that
    you can offload most of your replication to OS/Storage team, without having
    to come up with different strategy for each database/application in house.

    But for Oracle purposes I prefer data guard due all the extra flexibility.

    --
    Tanel Poder
    http://blog.tanelpoder.com

    On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Goulet, Richard <
    Richard.Goulet_at_parexel.com> wrote:
    Chris,

    Pros:

    1) For you it's extremely easy to set up. You just sit back and
    watch the Unix admin do all of the work. I like that.
    2) If there is a problem with the solution your not on the carpet
    for it.
    3) If and when you upgrade of patch the remote system gets the
    update as well, less work. Assuming that ORACLE_HOME is replicated as well.

    Cons:

    1) If the DR database doesn't start for any reason you know who's
    to blame. You of course.
    2) If your database expands onto new luns they may or may not be
    included in the replication works.
    3) Adding a new lun in some products requires downtime because you
    have to rebuild the remote system.
    4) You need a LARGE network pipe between the sites and it HAS to
    be reliable.
    5) If you do have a network issue between the sites your database
    can hang because the replication software is bogged down. Not likely to
    occur immediately or in the event of a short outage, but longer outages will
    get there sooner or later.

    As for expense, yes these solutions are expensive. There's the cost
    of two identical SANs, the network connection, and the software. But Oracle
    EE isn't a drop in the bucket either. On the other hand if you've already
    got EE then replicating via Data Guard may be more cost effective,
    especially if your not using the standby database as a reporting instance
    and the network pipe isn't large or reliable.
    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Matthew Zito at Aug 27, 2009 at 4:20 pm
    It's worth noting that there is an option for most storage platforms to do end-to-end checking of blocks, at least from the HBA to the disks on the array. Oracle has some internal initiatives that would go from memory all the way to the array, but they haven't been fully baked yet.

    I tend to recommend storage based replication for folks with "elegant" (read: easy to manage, easy to configure, lots of functionality) storage arrays and not as strong a DBA bench, and recommend Data Guard for folks with strong DBA teams and storage limitations or a weak storage team.

    Matt

    -----Original Message-----
    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org on behalf of Tanel Poder
    Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 11:52 AM
    To: Richard.Goulet_at_parexel.com
    Cc: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com; Oracle L
    Subject: Re: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?


    With storage level replication, corruptions coming from Oracle/OS software or host/HBA hardware get replicated to DR site. With Data Guard, many corruptions in redo stream would be detected and not propagated to DR database, thanks to checksums and sanity checks.

    Also, human errors, such accidential datafile deletion, overwriting or formatting wrong device etc get replicated without a question and ability to roll it back.

    In my mind the biggest benefit of storage level replication would be that you can offload most of your replication to OS/Storage team, without having to come up with different strategy for each database/application in house.

    But for Oracle purposes I prefer data guard due all the extra flexibility.

    --
    Tanel Poder
    http://blog.tanelpoder.com

    On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Goulet, Richard wrote:

    Chris,


    Pros:


    For you it's extremely easy to set up. You just sit back and watch the Unix admin do all of the work. I like that.
    If there is a problem with the solution your not on the carpet for it.
    If and when you upgrade of patch the remote system gets the update as well, less work. Assuming that ORACLE_HOME is replicated as well.

    Cons:


    If the DR database doesn't start for any reason you know who's to blame. You of course.
    If your database expands onto new luns they may or may not be included in the replication works.
    Adding a new lun in some products requires downtime because you have to rebuild the remote system.
    You need a LARGE network pipe between the sites and it HAS to be reliable.
    If you do have a network issue between the sites your database can hang because the replication software is bogged down. Not likely to occur immediately or in the event of a short outage, but longer outages will get there sooner or later.

    As for expense, yes these solutions are expensive. There's the cost of two identical SANs, the network connection, and the software. But Oracle EE isn't a drop in the bucket either. On the other hand if you've already got EE then replicating via Data Guard may be more cost effective, especially if your not using the standby database as a reporting instance and the network pipe isn't large or reliable.



    --
    http://www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
  • Hrishy at Sep 2, 2009 at 7:27 am
    Hi

    I heard 11gR2 ASM can do snapshots woudl be interesting hwo it would compare with SAN based replication

    regards
    Hrishy

    On Thu, 27/8/09, Goulet, Richard wrote:

    From: Goulet, Richard
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com, "Oracle L"
    Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:05 PM

    Chris,

    Pros:

    1) For you it's extremely easy to set up.  You just sit back and watch the Unix admin do all of the work. I like that.
    2) If there is a problem with the solution your not on the carpet for it.
    3) If and when you upgrade of patch the remote system gets the update as well, less work.  Assuming that ORACLE_HOME is replicated as well.

    Cons:

    1) If the DR database doesn't start for any reason you know who's to blame.  You of course.
    2) If your database expands onto new luns they may or may not be included in the replication works.
    3) Adding a new lun in some products requires downtime because you have to rebuild the remote system.
    4) You need a LARGE network pipe between the sites and it HAS to be reliable.
    5) If you do have a network issue between the sites your database can hang because the replication software is bogged down.  Not likely to occur immediately or in the event of a short outage, but longer outages will get there sooner or later.

    As for expense, yes these solutions are expensive.  There's the cost of two identical SANs, the network connection, and the software.  But Oracle EE isn't a drop in the bucket either.  On the other hand if you've already got EE then replicating via Data Guard  may be more cost effective, especially if your not using the standby database as a reporting instance and the network pipe isn't large or reliable.



    Dick Goulet
    Senior Oracle DBA
    PAREXEL International


    From: oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org On Behalf Of Taylor, Chris David
    Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    To: 'Oracle L'
    Subject: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a WAN to another SAN.  The replication is block based, so any block that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this?  Pros? Cons?  I have a hard time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    Chris Taylor
    Sr. Oracle DBA
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com


    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium.
  • LS Cheng at Sep 2, 2009 at 10:25 am
    I suspect ACFS Snapshots is similar to LVM Snapshots

    --
    LSC
    On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 9:27 AM, hrishy wrote:

    Hi

    I heard 11gR2 ASM can do snapshots woudl be interesting hwo it would
    compare with SAN based replication

    regards
    Hrishy

    --- On *Thu, 27/8/09, Goulet, Richard * wrote:


    From: Goulet, Richard
    Subject: RE: Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN
    tool?
    To: ChrisDavid.Taylor_at_ingrambarge.com, "Oracle L"
    Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:05 PM


    Chris,

    Pros:

    1) For you it's extremely easy to set up. You just sit back and
    watch the Unix admin do all of the work. I like that.
    2) If there is a problem with the solution your not on the carpet
    for it.
    3) If and when you upgrade of patch the remote system gets the
    update as well, less work. Assuming that ORACLE_HOME is replicated as well.

    Cons:

    1) If the DR database doesn't start for any reason you know who's
    to blame. You of course.
    2) If your database expands onto new luns they may or may not be
    included in the replication works.
    3) Adding a new lun in some products requires downtime because you
    have to rebuild the remote system.
    4) You need a LARGE network pipe between the sites and it HAS to
    be reliable.
    5) If you do have a network issue between the sites your database
    can hang because the replication software is bogged down. Not likely to
    occur immediately or in the event of a short outage, but longer outages will
    get there sooner or later.

    As for expense, yes these solutions are expensive. There's the cost
    of two identical SANs, the network connection, and the software. But Oracle
    EE isn't a drop in the bucket either. On the other hand if you've already
    got EE then replicating via Data Guard may be more cost effective,
    especially if your not using the standby database as a reporting instance
    and the network pipe isn't large or reliable.



    *Dick Goulet***
    Senior Oracle DBA
    PAREXEL International


    ------------------------------
    *From:* oracle-l-bounce_at_freelists.org [mailto:
    oracle-l-bounce@freelists.org] *On Behalf Of *Taylor, Chris David
    *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:43 AM
    *To:* 'Oracle L'
    *Subject:* Replicating Live Oracle DataFiles/LUNs to remote site via SAN
    tool?

    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to another
    in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across a
    WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block that
    changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the remote LUN at
    the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard time
    imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    *Chris Taylor*
    *Sr. Oracle DBA*
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com<http://uk.mc237.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com>


    *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE**: This e-mail and any attachments are
    confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient,
    please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message
    without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or
    storing or copying the information on any medium.*


    --
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  • Yechiel Adar at Aug 31, 2009 at 4:28 am
    This is very doable.
    We replicate ALL our data (hundreds servers and Main Frame) to DR site.
    The big question is what do you need to replicate?
    If you are looking for solution for a few databases then maybe you
    should go with data guard.
    If you are looking for enterprise solution, you should go with storage
    level replication.

    Adar Yechiel
    Rechovot, Israel

    Taylor, Chris David wrote:
    Any of you guys/gals replicating LIVE datafiles from one SAN to
    another in a remote location?

    We're looking at using HP's CA tool to replicate LIVE datafiles across
    a WAN to another SAN. The replication is block based, so any block
    that changes on the primary LUN is immediately replicated to the
    remote LUN at the remote site.

    Is anyone doing anything similar to this? Pros? Cons? I have a hard
    time imagining that this is a good idea but perhaps it is doable.

    Thoughts?

    */Chris Taylor/*
    *Sr. Oracle DBA*
    Ingram Barge Company
    Nashville, TN 37205
    Office: 615-517-3355
    Cell: 615-354-4799
    Email: chris.taylor_at_ingrambarge.com


    *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE**: This e-mail and any attachments are
    confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named
    recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the
    contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone,
    using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on
    any medium.*
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