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Hi list

Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
mssql.
His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
half the price as oracle does.
So why he should not choose mssql is the question

g.g. kor
rdw ict groningen

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  • Igor Neyman at Oct 23, 2002 at 1:58 pm
    Because your boss is wrong on both issues: features and price.
    As for references, check this site:

    http://www.itsystems.lv/gints/compare_db.htm

    Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
    ineyman_at_perceptron.com

    Original Message -----
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 3:38 AM
    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: Igor Neyman
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  • Alex at Oct 23, 2002 at 2:54 pm
    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Author:
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    Author: Alex
    INET: axs_at_m-net.arbornet.org

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  • Weaver, Walt at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:08 pm
    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: Alex
    INET: axs_at_m-net.arbornet.org

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    Author: Weaver, Walt
    INET: wweaver_at_rightnow.com

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  • Mirsky, Greg at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:19 pm
    If he really wants to go cheap tell him to go with mySQL! At least it will
    be an open solution.

    Greg

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: Alex
    INET: axs_at_m-net.arbornet.org

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    Author: Weaver, Walt
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    Author: Mirsky, Greg
    INET: gmirsky_at_Estee.com

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  • Kevin Lange at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:25 pm
    Its been a while since I used MS SQL but one of the downsides that I
    experienced was the fact that MSSQL could not support the user loads we
    needed right out of the box. We had to cluster servers together to get the
    throughput that we got out of Oracle.

    MSSQL might be cheaper at the database software level but it was more
    expensive at the hardware level...... at least in our case.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: Alex
    INET: axs_at_m-net.arbornet.org

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    Author: Weaver, Walt
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    Author: Kevin Lange
    INET: kgel_at_ppoone.com

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  • Dgoulet_at_vicr.com at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:33 pm
    In reality your boss does not have to invest in either. Flat files are still
    viable options for limited scope and usage applications.

    But in the real world most applications need a database of some type to run in a
    multi user environment. That being the case, why would one want to use either.

    The first point that hits me is that MSSQL runs on Windows only. Now
    that may be a good thing to some but in general I would think it's a bad thing.
    You will not be able to take advantage of Linux which is a much cheaper and
    reliable OS on the intel platform. On top of that the future of MicroSoft and
    Windows is greatly in doubt. The anti trust action I have not heard an end to.
    That being the case we may not have a MicroSoft to kick around in a year or two.
    Oracle on the other hand does NOT have these limitations.

    Feature set wise Oracle outpaces MSSql. Many of their "new" features
    have been in Oracle for some time. Try doing partitioning in MSSql. No don't,
    there is no need to commit suicide!

    Take a serious look at what your buying and what you need. You'll find
    that Oracle bundles a lot into the package where as with MS it's an extra, and
    that means extra cost.

    Seriously look at both Standard edition instead of Enterprise and Named
    users vs. CPU licensing. Unless your actually connecting the beast up to an
    internet server or some other out of control piece of middle ware Named users is
    much cheaper. Standard edition will force you not to use many of Oracle's
    advanced features, but if your not using them why pay for them?

    In the end you need to make a decision based on business needs. I would argue
    that investing in Oracle at least keeps your options open in the future, where
    as with MS, well that's just a dead end road.

    Dick Goulet

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________
    Author: GKor_at_rdw.nl
    Date: 10/22/2002 11:38 PM

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question

    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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  • DENNIS WILLIAMS at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:45 pm
    G - Actually, Oracle may not be more expensive. First, of all, you must do a
    little digging into what is included in licensing fees. There are some
    extras you must pay for with MS that aren't obvious at first glance, like
    the right to upgrade.

    If you compare list prices, both Oracle and MS have Enterprise and
    Standard versions. Yes, if you just compare Enterprise to Enterprise or
    Standard to Standard, then MS is cheaper. But if you look more closely at
    the included features, I would argue that MS Enterprise aligns most closely
    with Oracle Standard Edition. Oracle Enterprise Edition includes features
    that are far beyond MS SQL Enterprise. If you instead compare MS Enterprise
    with Oracle Standard, then Oracle is cheaper.

    To be honest, if the shop is totally devoted to developing everything
    using MS tools (like .NET), then I would seriously consider MSSQL.
    Personally, I would consider working somewhere else. Obviously you are
    willing to be locked into the Intel platform. MS development tools use some
    strange methods to access a database, and are difficult to understand. Also,
    Microsoft and Oracle do not seem to acknowledge each other's existence, so
    there isn't much documentation from either vendor in terms of things like
    how to get ADO to work with Oracle.

    But if you want more than superficial replies, then you're going to have
    to tell us more about your situation, and what your boss' priorities are.

    Dennis Williams
    DBA, 40%OCP

    Lifetouch, Inc.
    dwilliams_at_lifetouch.com

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:38 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does that at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question

    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS
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  • Rachna Vaidya at Oct 23, 2002 at 3:59 pm
    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:25 AM
    Its been a while since I used MS SQL but one of the downsides that I
    experienced was the fact that MSSQL could not support the user loads we
    needed right out of the box. We had to cluster servers together to get the
    throughput that we got out of Oracle.

    MSSQL might be cheaper at the database software level but it was more
    expensive at the hardware level...... at least in our case.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does
    that
    at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author: Alex
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    Author: Weaver, Walt
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    Author: Kevin Lange
    INET: kgel_at_ppoone.com

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    Author: Rachna Vaidya
    INET: rachnavaidya_at_hotmail.com

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  • Gogala, Mladen at Oct 23, 2002 at 4:14 pm
    I've heard that, too. We must be afraid because Microsoft ICBM's
    will be running Win2k/sp3 and .net. Knowing the security of that
    particular peace of software, I wouldn't be surprised if they blow
    the world up before their next release.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Weaver, Walt
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: oracle or mssql


    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably
    in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather
    than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but
    mssql does that
    at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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  • Gogala, Mladen at Oct 23, 2002 at 4:23 pm
    It will be open, not necessarily a solution.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mirsky, Greg
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:20 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: oracle or mssql


    If he really wants to go cheap tell him to go with mySQL! At
    least it will
    be an open solution.

    Greg

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably
    in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather
    than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but
    mssql does that
    at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

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  • Dgoulet_at_vicr.com at Oct 23, 2002 at 4:23 pm
    ARE YOU AN IDIOT?? Otherwise, pass some of whatever your smoking this way
    because it must be good!!

    Dick Goulet

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________
    Author: "Rachna Vaidya"
    Date: 10/23/2002 7:59 AM

    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:25 AM
    Its been a while since I used MS SQL but one of the downsides that I
    experienced was the fact that MSSQL could not support the user loads we
    needed right out of the box. We had to cluster servers together to get the
    throughput that we got out of Oracle.

    MSSQL might be cheaper at the database software level but it was more
    expensive at the hardware level...... at least in our case.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:09 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    No it doesn't.

    MicroSoft is a card-carrying member of the Axis Of Evil.

    Last I heard they were developing nuclear weapons, probably in a huge bunker
    under Bill Gates' house.

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:54 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    It depends on your companies needs.
    On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 GKor_at_rdw.nl wrote:

    Hi list

    Please input why my boss must invest into oracle rather than the cheaper
    mssql.
    His opinion is that most features are almost the same but mssql does
    that
    at
    half the price as oracle does.
    So why he should not choose mssql is the question




    g.g. kor
    rdw ict groningen

    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
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  • Farnsworth, Dave at Oct 23, 2002 at 4:23 pm
    -Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?
    Hahahahahahahahaha. ROTFLMAO :o)

    No. Only on windows.

    Dave

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:59 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    --
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  • Boivin, Patrice J at Oct 23, 2002 at 4:35 pm
    Re. the trial, does anyone know when the judge is expected to rule?

    Not a peep re. expected timeline in the media that I can find.

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
    Technology Services | Services technologiques
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  • Boivin, Patrice J at Oct 23, 2002 at 5:02 pm
    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
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    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    --
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  • Joe Testa at Oct 23, 2002 at 5:45 pm
    Xenix, now there an OS i've not heard about since '89.

    joe

    Boivin, Patrice J wrote:
    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
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    E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca




    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Joe Testa
    INET: jtesta_at_dmc-it.com

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  • Mohammad Rafiq at Oct 23, 2002 at 6:51 pm
    Xenix is history now...SCO itself stopped it sometime in 1990

    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:19 -0800

    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
    Technology Services | Services technologiques
    Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique
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    E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna

    --
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    Author: Boivin, Patrice J
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  • GKor_at_rdw.nl at Oct 24, 2002 at 7:48 am
    goodmorning
    everybody who responded to my basic question : thanks

    summary

    professional : use oracle enterprise edition
    semi professional : use oracle standard edition / mssql enterprise edition
    in all other cases mssql standard edition
    -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
    Van: Mohammad Rafiq [SMTP:rafiq9857_at_hotmail.com]
    Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2002 20:51
    Aan: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Onderwerp: RE: oracle or mssql

    Xenix is history now...SCO itself stopped it sometime in 1990






    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:19 -0800

    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
    Technology Services | Services technologiques
    Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique
    Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO

    E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca




    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
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    Author: Boivin, Patrice J
    INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

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  • Mercadante, Thomas F at Oct 30, 2002 at 6:09 pm
    But Yechiel,

    what is better? Getting data that has not been committed by the
    application, or data that has been updated by an application without a
    commit being issued?

    In the mssql option, do you really want to return data as valid, taking the
    chance that the person who updated the record may issue a "rollback"?

    I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. At least with Oracle,
    it's logical and under the applications control. If the user issues a
    commit, then the new data is available for query. If the application needs
    the data commited more frequently, then issuing commits more often is
    certainly available.

    Tom Mercadante
    Oracle Certified Professional

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:55 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I would like to point out that what you call "dirty reads" are mostly
    the correct reads. Oracle method IS the dirty read.

    I am sure that your users does at least 1000 commits to every rollback.
    So when oracle gives you the data it already knows that this data is
    wrong. If you do the query again a minute later you will get new results
    that were available when you did the original query but were committed
    later. So you get a 1000/1 chance to get incorrect data.

    The "dirty read" method, on the other hand, gives you the current values,
    believing that they will be committed in a moment. So you get 1/1000 chance
    to get wrong data.

    Which odds will you bet on?

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:18 PM

    List,
    I'm always keen to refresh on database comparisons so thanks for
    everyone's pointers.

    I'm surprised Oracle doesn't make more of an issue about their locking and
    concurrency methods (i.e. redo/rollback/undo).

    MSSQL seems to deal with it in two ways:
    Default: readers and writers prevent writers from accessing data until they
    are finished with it!
    Other method: no control, you just get dirty reads!

    Anyone got anything to add to this? Or am I wrong?

    Mike.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: 24 October 2002 17:29
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    As I said, use mssql ONLY if your boss is willing to be strapped into a
    MicroSlop only platform. If he's even remotely thinking of using a
    different OS
    then you can't use mssql.

    Dick Goulet

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________
    Author: GKor_at_rdw.nl
    Date: 10/23/2002 11:48 PM

    goodmorning
    everybody who responded to my basic question : thanks

    summary

    professional : use oracle enterprise edition
    semi professional : use oracle standard edition / mssql enterprise edition
    in all other cases mssql standard edition
    -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
    Van: Mohammad Rafiq [SMTP:rafiq9857_at_hotmail.com]
    Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2002 20:51
    Aan: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Onderwerp: RE: oracle or mssql

    Xenix is history now...SCO itself stopped it sometime in 1990






    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:19 -0800

    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
    Technology Services | Services technologiques
    Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique
    Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO

    E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca




    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Boivin, Patrice J
    INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

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    _________________________________________________________________
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    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Mohammad Rafiq
    INET: rafiq9857_at_hotmail.com

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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author:
    INET: dgoulet_at_vicr.com

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    Author: Jenner Mike
    INET: M.Jenner_at_southampton.gov.uk

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    Author: Yechiel Adar
    INET: adar76_at_inter.net.il

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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    Author: Mercadante, Thomas F
    INET: NDATFM_at_labor.state.ny.us

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  • Yechiel Adar at Oct 31, 2002 at 3:28 pm
    That was exactly my point.

    It is NOT 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

    You commit 1000's of times for each rollback.
    So the data you read is incorrect while you read it with enormous odds that
    the changes will be committed.

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:09 PM

    But Yechiel,

    what is better? Getting data that has not been committed by the
    application, or data that has been updated by an application without a
    commit being issued?

    In the mssql option, do you really want to return data as valid, taking the
    chance that the person who updated the record may issue a "rollback"?

    I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. At least with Oracle,
    it's logical and under the applications control. If the user issues a
    commit, then the new data is available for query. If the application needs
    the data commited more frequently, then issuing commits more often is
    certainly available.

    Tom Mercadante
    Oracle Certified Professional

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:55 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I would like to point out that what you call "dirty reads" are mostly
    the correct reads. Oracle method IS the dirty read.

    I am sure that your users does at least 1000 commits to every rollback.
    So when oracle gives you the data it already knows that this data is
    wrong. If you do the query again a minute later you will get new results
    that were available when you did the original query but were committed
    later. So you get a 1000/1 chance to get incorrect data.

    The "dirty read" method, on the other hand, gives you the current values,
    believing that they will be committed in a moment. So you get 1/1000 chance
    to get wrong data.

    Which odds will you bet on?

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:18 PM

    List,
    I'm always keen to refresh on database comparisons so thanks for
    everyone's pointers.

    I'm surprised Oracle doesn't make more of an issue about their locking and
    concurrency methods (i.e. redo/rollback/undo).

    MSSQL seems to deal with it in two ways:
    Default: readers and writers prevent writers from accessing data until they
    are finished with it!
    Other method: no control, you just get dirty reads!

    Anyone got anything to add to this? Or am I wrong?

    Mike.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: 24 October 2002 17:29
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    As I said, use mssql ONLY if your boss is willing to be strapped into a
    MicroSlop only platform. If he's even remotely thinking of using a
    different OS
    then you can't use mssql.

    Dick Goulet

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________
    Author: GKor_at_rdw.nl
    Date: 10/23/2002 11:48 PM

    goodmorning
    everybody who responded to my basic question : thanks

    summary

    professional : use oracle enterprise edition
    semi professional : use oracle standard edition / mssql enterprise edition
    in all other cases mssql standard edition
    -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
    Van: Mohammad Rafiq [SMTP:rafiq9857_at_hotmail.com]
    Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2002 20:51
    Aan: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Onderwerp: RE: oracle or mssql

    Xenix is history now...SCO itself stopped it sometime in 1990






    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:02:19 -0800

    XENIX maybe.

    : )

    Regards,
    Patrice Boivin
    Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA)

    Systems Admin & Operations | Admin. et Exploit. des systèmes
    Technology Services | Services technologiques
    Informatics Branch | Direction de l'informatique
    Maritimes Region, DFO | Région des Maritimes, MPO

    E-Mail: boivinp_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca




    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:59 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    Is MSSQL server available on UNIX?

    -Rachna
    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Boivin, Patrice J
    INET: BoivinP_at_mar.dfo-mpo.gc.ca

    Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
    San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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    _________________________________________________________________
    Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!
    http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Mohammad Rafiq
    INET: rafiq9857_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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    Author:
    INET: GKor_at_rdw.nl

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    Author:
    INET: dgoulet_at_vicr.com

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    Author: Jenner Mike
    INET: M.Jenner_at_southampton.gov.uk

    Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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    Author: Yechiel Adar
    INET: adar76_at_inter.net.il

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
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    Author: Mercadante, Thomas F
    INET: NDATFM_at_labor.state.ny.us

    Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
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    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Author: Yechiel Adar
    INET: adar76_at_inter.net.il

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  • Jay Hostetter at Oct 31, 2002 at 8:18 pm
    Yechiel,

    If I understand your argument, you are saying that a select statement should return all data, even if it is not committed. Since most changes are usually committed you are getting better data than if you get the pre-commit data. This pre-commit data is wrong in your view because it will change in the very near future after the commit.
    The flaw with this thinking is that you will see partially changed data if you see it without a commit being issued. Imagine that I am giving all employees a raise with the following statement:

    update employees set salary=salary*1.15;

    If I run a select statement (that lets me see data before it is committed) while this update is running, I may see some employees that got the raise and some that didn't. You are making the assumption that updates to the data have been completed. There is no way to know this without issuing a commit. Therefore your queries of non-committed data will only be right 1000/1 times if the queries are issued AFTER the updates are finished. If they are issued while the updates are occurring, then your queries will be wrong every time. In a world where non-committed data is available, a query will almost never return the same results on tables that are being constantly updated.

    Oracle takes the commit/rollback odds into consideration in its architecture. Updates are made to datablocks and copies of the pre-update data are stored in the rollback segment in case a rollback is needed. If the odds were the other way around, the updates would be stored in a pre-commit area and the original data blocks would stay as they are until commit.

    A dirty block is a block that needs to be written to disk. A dirty read is what you would get if you saw data that has not been committed.
    From the 8i concepts manual:
    The three preventable phenomena are:

    dirty read
    A transaction reads data that has been written by another transaction that has not been committed yet.

    nonrepeatable (fuzzy) read
    A transaction rereads data it has previously read and finds that another committed transaction has modified or deleted the data.

    phantom read
    A transaction re-executes a query returning a set of rows that satisfies a search condition and finds that another committed transaction has inserted additional rows that satisfy the condition.


    Jay
    adar76_at_inter.net.il 10/31/02 10:28AM >>>
    That was exactly my point.

    It is NOT 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

    You commit 1000's of times for each rollback.
    So the data you read is incorrect while you read it with enormous odds that
    the changes will be committed.

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:09 PM

    But Yechiel,

    what is better? Getting data that has not been committed by the
    application, or data that has been updated by an application without a
    commit being issued?

    In the mssql option, do you really want to return data as valid, taking the
    chance that the person who updated the record may issue a "rollback"?

    I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. At least with Oracle,
    it's logical and under the applications control. If the user issues a
    commit, then the new data is available for query. If the application needs
    the data commited more frequently, then issuing commits more often is
    certainly available.

    Tom Mercadante
    Oracle Certified Professional

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:55 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I would like to point out that what you call "dirty reads" are mostly
    the correct reads. Oracle method IS the dirty read.

    I am sure that your users does at least 1000 commits to every rollback.
    So when oracle gives you the data it already knows that this data is
    wrong. If you do the query again a minute later you will get new results
    that were available when you did the original query but were committed
    later. So you get a 1000/1 chance to get incorrect data.

    The "dirty read" method, on the other hand, gives you the current values,
    believing that they will be committed in a moment. So you get 1/1000 chance
    to get wrong data.

    Which odds will you bet on?

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:18 PM

    List,
    I'm always keen to refresh on database comparisons so thanks for
    everyone's pointers.

    I'm surprised Oracle doesn't make more of an issue about their locking and
    concurrency methods (i.e. redo/rollback/undo).

    MSSQL seems to deal with it in two ways:
    Default: readers and writers prevent writers from accessing data until they
    are finished with it!
    Other method: no control, you just get dirty reads!

    Anyone got anything to add to this? Or am I wrong?

    Mike.

    **DISCLAIMER

    This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. The contents do not represent the opinion of D&E except to the extent that it relates to their official business.

    --
    Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com
    --
    Author: Jay Hostetter
    INET: jhostetter_at_decommunications.com

    Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com
    San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
  • Igor Neyman at Oct 31, 2002 at 9:08 pm
    Very good point.

    Also, transaction can include multiple inserts/deletes/updates, and they all
    are in one transaction, because they make sense (from business point of
    view) only when they all are executed/finished. So, allowing "dirty" reads,
    you allow to see "partial" results of the transaction (running in the
    "other" session), and those partial results may have no sense.

    Igor Neyman, OCP DBA
    ineyman_at_perceptron.com

    Original Message -----
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:18 PM

    Yechiel,

    If I understand your argument, you are saying that a select statement
    should return all data, even if it is not committed. Since most changes are
    usually committed you are getting better data than if you get the pre-commit
    data. This pre-commit data is wrong in your view because it will change in
    the very near future after the commit.
    The flaw with this thinking is that you will see partially changed data if
    you see it without a commit being issued. Imagine that I am giving all
    employees a raise with the following statement:

    update employees set salary=salary*1.15;

    If I run a select statement (that lets me see data before it is committed)
    while this update is running, I may see some employees that got the raise
    and some that didn't. You are making the assumption that updates to the
    data have been completed. There is no way to know this without issuing a
    commit. Therefore your queries of non-committed data will only be right
    1000/1 times if the queries are issued AFTER the updates are finished. If
    they are issued while the updates are occurring, then your queries will be
    wrong every time. In a world where non-committed data is available, a query
    will almost never return the same results on tables that are being
    constantly updated.

    Oracle takes the commit/rollback odds into consideration in its
    architecture. Updates are made to datablocks and copies of the pre-update
    data are stored in the rollback segment in case a rollback is needed. If
    the odds were the other way around, the updates would be stored in a
    pre-commit area and the original data blocks would stay as they are until
    commit.

    A dirty block is a block that needs to be written to disk. A dirty read
    is what you would get if you saw data that has not been committed.
    From the 8i concepts manual:
    The three preventable phenomena are:

    dirty read
    A transaction reads data that has been written by another transaction that
    has not been committed yet.

    nonrepeatable (fuzzy) read
    A transaction rereads data it has previously read and finds that another
    committed transaction has modified or deleted the data.

    phantom read
    A transaction re-executes a query returning a set of rows that satisfies a
    search condition and finds that another committed transaction has inserted
    additional rows that satisfy the condition.

    Jay
    adar76_at_inter.net.il 10/31/02 10:28AM >>>
    That was exactly my point.

    It is NOT 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

    You commit 1000's of times for each rollback.
    So the data you read is incorrect while you read it with enormous odds that
    the changes will be committed.

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:09 PM

    But Yechiel,

    what is better? Getting data that has not been committed by the
    application, or data that has been updated by an application without a
    commit being issued?

    In the mssql option, do you really want to return data as valid, taking the
    chance that the person who updated the record may issue a "rollback"?

    I think it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. At least with Oracle,
    it's logical and under the applications control. If the user issues a
    commit, then the new data is available for query. If the application needs
    the data commited more frequently, then issuing commits more often is
    certainly available.

    Tom Mercadante
    Oracle Certified Professional

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:55 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I would like to point out that what you call "dirty reads" are mostly
    the correct reads. Oracle method IS the dirty read.

    I am sure that your users does at least 1000 commits to every rollback.
    So when oracle gives you the data it already knows that this data is
    wrong. If you do the query again a minute later you will get new results
    that were available when you did the original query but were committed
    later. So you get a 1000/1 chance to get incorrect data.

    The "dirty read" method, on the other hand, gives you the current values,
    believing that they will be committed in a moment. So you get 1/1000 chance
    to get wrong data.

    Which odds will you bet on?

    Yechiel Adar
    Mehish
    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:18 PM

    List,
    I'm always keen to refresh on database comparisons so thanks for
    everyone's pointers.

    I'm surprised Oracle doesn't make more of an issue about their locking and
    concurrency methods (i.e. redo/rollback/undo).

    MSSQL seems to deal with it in two ways:
    Default: readers and writers prevent writers from accessing data until they
    are finished with it!
    Other method: no control, you just get dirty reads!

    Anyone got anything to add to this? Or am I wrong?

    Mike.

    **DISCLAIMER

    This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the
    use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain
    information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not
    the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the
    message or any information contained in the message. If you have received
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