FAQ
Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in =
the
Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure=
team
(comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this individ=
ual
will be responsible for:

=B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platfor=
ms
(specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products (e=
.g.,
SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5, Designer/20=
00,
Browser).
=B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this capac=
ity,
will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

In-house applications
3rd party software
Database performance, capacity, recovery
Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
=B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
=B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to=
the
DBA team.
=B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
=B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA). =
=20

Must have previous database administration experience, specifically with Or=
acle
v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able to=
=20
multitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong interpersona=
l and=20
communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other desi=
rable=20
experience:

=B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
=B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/=
O.
=B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.), N=
FS,
NIS, TCP/IP.

=B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
=B7 Project Management.
=B7 System Security.
=B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
=B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
=B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,=
or
equivalent applicable work experience.

Please send resume to :

Alan Bowden
Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
Englewood, CO 80111
FAX: (303) 737-4850

Search Discussions

  • Jeff Wiegand at May 16, 2000 at 1:24 pm
    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've =
    worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career =
    path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me =
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Donita Hilfinger
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available =
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical =
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing =
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related =
    products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives =
    related to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary =
    DBA). =20

    Must have previous database administration experience, specifically =
    with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be =
    able to=20
    multitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong =
    interpersonal
    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable=20
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas =
    Quick I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, =
    etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information =
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
  • Lisa_Koivu_at_gelco.com at May 16, 2000 at 8:31 pm
    --0__=59EdajBtPrxsMXMs5oimcV6I7ui21BCEAAq0N73VfSCuNvhx4t3CV4vf
    Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Disposition: inline

    Jeff,

    No this is not typical. My gosh! It sounds like this person must be a
    jack-of-all-trades. My job concentrates on ORACLE only and being able to
    interpret what's going on in the OS (rarely). I said 'NO' to all the software
    support crap when one of our DBA's left, and it worked. 37 databases is ENOUGH
    without worrying about other stuff.

    There are days when I miss the creative (and pagerless) world of development
    though.
    Lisa

    Jeff Wiegand on 05/16/2000 09:39:38 AM

    Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    cc: (bcc: Lisa Koivu/GELCO)

    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    --0__=59EdajBtPrxsMXMs5oimcV6I7ui21BCEAAq0N73VfSCuNvhx4t3CV4vf

    Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
    Content-Disposition: inline
    Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing pla=
    tforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related product=
    s
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives relate=
    d to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA=
    ).

    Must have previous database administration experience, specifically wit=
    h
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be abl=
    e to
    multitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong interper=
    sonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quic=
    k I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.=
    ), NFS,

    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Syst=
    ems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
  • Steve.Gough_at_gocorp.com.au at May 16, 2000 at 9:16 pm
    I was at the crossroads last year after being a middleware / DBA / "C"
    developer for several large software vendors. I chose to do the full ti=
    me
    Oracle DBA thing, a move I'm now regretting. The support work is enough=
    to
    make you vomit, the endless backup documentation, tape rotations will
    grind you down and the work isn't project based so beware the fictitio=
    us
    deadlines. I've be offered another postion but the experience has been
    good.

    Working in an operational role is very different to a development role.=
    A
    college told me several years ago that:-
    Development has one mind set / Operational has another. The two rairly =
    meet
    in the middle.

    Think very hard about it !

    =
    =20
    Jeff Wiegand =
    =20
    =20
    ept.com> cc: =
    =20
    Sent by: Subject: RE: Oracle DBA op=
    ening in Englewood, CO =20
    root_at_fatcity. =
    =20
    com =
    =20
    =
    =20
    =
    =20
    17/05/00 =
    =20
    00:39 =
    =20
    Please =
    =20
    respond to =
    =20
    ORACLE-L =
    =20
    =
    =20
    =
    =20

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've wor=
    ked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career pa=
    th.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available=
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastruc=
    ture
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System=

    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing pla=
    tforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related product=
    s
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives relate=
    d to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA=
    ).

    Must have previous database administration experience, specifically wit=
    h
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be abl=
    e to

    multitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quic=
    k I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.=
    ),
    NFS,

    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Syst=
    ems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
  • Steve.Gough_at_gocorp.com.au at May 16, 2000 at 10:38 pm
    Hi Lisa, Jeff

    I agree. Yes jack of all trades master of none and I'm glad it's not
    typical. Wasn't meant to sound derogatory of operational roles, just to=

    highlight the differences in the roles. I tried to say "NO" to some of=
    the
    career diluting tasks, pricing for offsite storage, but it was pushed
    under the carpet.

    Jeff, get as much clarification as you can on the role.

    You are the master of your own destiny.

    =
    =20
    Lisa_Koivu_at_ge =
    =20
    lco.com To: Multiple recipients of=
    list ORACLE-L =20
    Sent by: cc: =
    =20
    root_at_fatcity. Subject: RE: Oracle DBA op=
    ening in Englewood, CO =20
    com =
    =20
    =
    =20
    =
    =20
    17/05/00 =
    =20
    07:51 =
    =20
    Please =
    =20
    respond to =
    =20
    ORACLE-L =
    =20
    =
    =20
    =
    =20

    Jeff,

    No this is not typical. My gosh! It sounds like this person must be a=

    jack-of-all-trades. My job concentrates on ORACLE only and being able =
    to
    interpret what's going on in the OS (rarely). I said 'NO' to all the
    software
    support crap when one of our DBA's left, and it worked. 37 databases i=
    s
    ENOUGH

    without worrying about other stuff.

    There are days when I miss the creative (and pagerless) world of
    development
    though.
    Lisa

    Jeff Wiegand on 05/16/2000 09:39:38 AM

    Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    cc: (bcc: Lisa Koivu/GELCO)

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've wor=
    ked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career pa=
    th.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available=
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastruc=
    ture
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System=

    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing pla=
    tforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related product=
    s
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives relate=
    d to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA=
    ).

    Must have previous database administration experience, specifically wit=
    h
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be abl=
    e to
    multitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quic=
    k I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.=
    ),
    NFS,

    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Syst=
    ems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
  • Philip West at May 17, 2000 at 9:10 am
    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal=20
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jeff Wiegand
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platfor=
    ms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA). =

    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able to=
    m
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong interpersonal
    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable=20
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/=
    O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.), N=
    FS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --=20
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ***************************************************************************=

    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally =
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this Inter=
    net e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, copying, dist=
    ribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is p=

    rohibited and may be unlawful.=20

    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this Int=
    ernet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any appli=
    cable documentation or market practices governing the relationship between =

    Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender exce=
    pt where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
  • Chris Griffith at May 17, 2000 at 1:20 pm
    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get =
    the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone =
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too =
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Philip West
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production =
    DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades =
    (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my =
    DBA

    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I =
    have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure =
    hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job =
    done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting =
    developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal=20
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've =
    worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career =
    path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me =
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available =
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical =
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing =
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related =
    products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives =
    related to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary =
    DBA). =20

    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically =
    with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be =
    able tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong =
    interpersonal
    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable=20
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas =
    Quick I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, =
    etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information =
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --=20
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ************************************************************************=

    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be =
    legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, =
    copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on =
    it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.=20
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in =
    any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital =
    plc.

    ************************************************************************=

    ***
    --=20
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
  • Bruce Page at May 17, 2000 at 4:38 pm
    This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
    this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC01E.5D5B9C60
    Content-Type: text/plain;

    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all =
    have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from =
    end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chris Griffith
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get =
    the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone =
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too =
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production =
    DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades =
    (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my =
    DBA

    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I =
    have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure =
    hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job =
    done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting =
    developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal=20
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've =
    worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career =
    path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me =
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available =
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical =
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing =
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related =
    products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives =
    related to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary =
    DBA). =20

    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically =
    with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be =
    able tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong =
    interpersonal
    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable=20
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas =
    Quick I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, =
    etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information =
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --=20
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ************************************************************************=

    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be =
    legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, =
    copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on =
    it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.=20
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in =
    any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital =
    plc.

    ************************************************************************=

    ***
    --=20
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --=20
    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC01E.5D5B9C60
    Content-Type: text/html;

    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">

    charset=3Diso-8859-1">

    RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your =
    shop or they all have more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from =
    developers as I have from end users.&nbsp; And end users do not write =
    code to go against my databases.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chris Griffith [mailto:Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com]

    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, =

    CO

    I agree.&nbsp; The job of the DBA seems to be =
    everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the =
    ability to do.&nbsp; We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too =
    hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than =
    users.&nbsp; Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for =
    many production DBA's.&nbsp; I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed =
    jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope).&nbsp; I have been in =
    roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise =
    their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install =
    and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums.&nbsp; Your typical DBA does what's =
    needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day =
    supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA =
    Services

    [&nbsp; all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are =
    personal
    and subject to change without reason or&nbsp; =
    warning !&nbsp; ]

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last =
    six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting =
    Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to =
    decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA =
    work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is =
    enough to make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent =
    position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the =
    Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database =
    Administrators and System
    Programmers).&nbsp; This challenging and =
    team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the =
    division, this

    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based =
    distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS =
    and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically =
    Forms 4.5,

    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user =

    support.&nbsp; In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating =
    to:

    &nbsp; - In-house applications
    &nbsp; - 3rd party software
    &nbsp; - Database performance, capacity, =

    recovery
    &nbsp; - Hardware and associated peripherals =
    (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle =
    related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project =
    initiatives related to

    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to =

    team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of =
    year as primary DBA).&nbsp;
    M
    &nbsp;ust have previous database administration =
    experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris =
    environments.&nbsp; Needs to be able tom
    &nbsp;ultitask and deal with a high-level of =
    interruptions.&nbsp; Strong interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in =
    this position.&nbsp; Other

    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File =
    System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools &amp; Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn =
    shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    =B7 Intranet, Internet &amp; Extranet, and WEB =
    server environments.

    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance =

    Tuning.

    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science =
    or Information Systems,

    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
    sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life &amp; Annuity Insurance =
    Company
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8515 E. =
    Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
    sp; Englewood, CO 80111
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=;&nbsp;&nbsp; FAX: (303) 737-4850
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    &nbsp; INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- (858) =
    538-5051&nbsp; FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, =
    California&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Public Internet =
    access / Mailing Lists

    SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=

    -----
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an =
    E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of =
    'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB =
    ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed =
    from).&nbsp; You may
    also send the HELP command for other information =
    (like subscribing).

    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    &nbsp; INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- (858) =
    538-5051&nbsp; FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, =
    California&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Public Internet =
    access / Mailing Lists

    SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=

    -----
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an =
    E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of =
    'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB =
    ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed =
    from).&nbsp; You may
    also send the HELP command for other information =
    (like subscribing).

    SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=

    *************
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is =
    confidential and may be legally
    privileged.&nbsp; It is intended solely for the =
    addressee.&nbsp; Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and =
    any disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be =
    taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    &nbsp;When addressed to our clients any opinions or =
    advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and =
    conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices =
    governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its =
    clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the =
    individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of =
    Garban Intercapital plc.

    SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=

    *************

    ***
    --
    Author: Philip West
    &nbsp; INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

    Fat City Network Services&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- (858) =
    538-5051&nbsp; FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, =
    California&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Public Internet =
    access / Mailing Lists

    SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=

    -----
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an =
    E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of =
    'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB =
    ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed =
    from).&nbsp; You may
    also send the HELP command for other information =
    (like subscribing).

    --
    Author: Chris Griffith
    &nbsp; INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

    Fat City Network Services&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- (858) =
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    SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
  • Walt Weaver at May 17, 2000 at 4:58 pm
    But, answering stupid questions for years is what's made us the cynical,
    sarcastic b*st**ds that we are. Isn't it worth it just for that?

    :>)

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana, USA

    -----Original Message-----
    From: root_at_fatcity.com On Behalf Of Chris
    Griffith
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:29 AM
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
  • Bill thater at May 17, 2000 at 5:20 pm
    At 02:06 PM 5/17/00, Walt Weaver scribbled on the wall in glitter crayon:
    But, answering stupid questions for years is what's made us the cynical,
    sarcastic b*st**ds that we are. Isn't it worth it just for that?
    HEY, i resemble that remark! i worked hard to earn my BOFH.;-)

    --
    Bill Thater Certified ORACLE DBA
    Telergy, Inc. thaterw_at_telergy.net
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Do or not do. There is no try. -- Yoda
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Absence is to love what wind is to fire; it extinguishes the small, it
    enkindles the great. - Comte de Bussy-Rabutin
  • ODell, Charles at May 17, 2000 at 6:04 pm
    The problem with developers is they tell you to tweak the db engine in =
    order
    to hide the fact that they're
    writing lousy code.
    =20
    In other words if the query is running very slow it must be the Oracle
    parameters and not the fact
    that they don't know how SQL works.
    =20

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bruce Page
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all =
    have
    more experience than you.=20

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from =
    end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.

    -----Original Message-----=20
    From: Chris Griffith [ mailto:Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com
    ]=20
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO=20

    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else=20
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get =
    the=20
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone =
    else=20
    to figure out.=20

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too =
    many=20
    stupid questions.=20

    Chris Griffith=20
    OCP DBA=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    There seems to be differing views here.=20

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production =
    DBA's. I

    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades =
    (and=20
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my =
    DBA=20

    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I =
    have=20
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure =
    hardware to=20
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job =
    done.=20

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting =
    developers=20
    anytime!=20

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd=20
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services=20

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal=20
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've =
    worked=20
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all=20
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career =
    path.=20
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of=20
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me =
    vomit.

    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available =
    in=20
    the=20
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical =
    Infrastructure=20
    team=20
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System =

    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our=20
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.=20

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this=20
    individual=20
    will be responsible for:=20

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing =
    platforms=20
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related =
    products=20
    (e.g.,=20
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,=20
    Designer/2000,=20
    Browser).=20
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this=20
    capacity,=20
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:=20

    In-house applications=20
    3rd party software=20
    Database performance, capacity, recovery=20
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)=20
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.=20
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives =
    related to=20
    the=20
    DBA team.=20
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.=20
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary =
    DBA). =20

    M=20
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically =
    with=20
    Oracle=20
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be =
    able tom

    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong =
    interpersonal

    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other=20
    desirable=20
    experience:=20

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.=20
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas =
    Quick I/O.=20
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, =
    etc.), NFS,

    NIS, TCP/IP.=20

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.=20
    =B7 Project Management.=20
    =B7 System Security.=20
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.=20
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.=20
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.=20

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information =
    Systems,=20
    or=20
    equivalent applicable work experience.=20

    Please send resume to :=20

    Alan Bowden=20
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company=20
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2=20
    Englewood, CO 80111=20
    FAX: (303) 737-4850=20
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com=20

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger=20
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20
    --=20
    Author: Jeff Wiegand=20
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20

    ************************************************************************=

    ***=20
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be =
    legally=20
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this=20
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, =
    copying,=20
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on =
    it,=20
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.=20
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this =

    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in =
    any=20
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship =

    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.=20

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender=20
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital =
    plc.=20

    ************************************************************************=

    ***=20
    --=20
    Author: Philip West=20
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20
    --=20
    Author: Chris Griffith=20
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
  • Brian_McQuillan_at_gelco.com at May 17, 2000 at 6:24 pm
    Walt said
    But, answering stupid questions for years is what's made us the cynical,
    sarcastic b*st**ds that we are. Isn't it worth it just for that?

    almost, almost,
    but you mostly have to be a masochist to put up with users at times

    Brian

    "Walt Weaver" on 17-05-2000 02:06:26 PM

    Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    cc: (bcc: Brian McQuillan/GELCO)

    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    But, answering stupid questions for years is what's made us the cynical,
    sarcastic b*st**ds that we are. Isn't it worth it just for that?

    :>)

    --Walt Weaver
    Bozeman, Montana, USA

    -----Original Message-----
    Griffith
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:29 AM

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    --
    Author: Walt Weaver
    INET: wweaver_at_rightnowtech.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
  • Chris Griffith at May 17, 2000 at 6:40 pm
    No, I'm one of the senior DBAs that works with a staff of over 70
    developers. I would rather solve their tuning questions than have an =
    end
    user ask me over and over how to delete statistics from tables.=20
    =20
    You are correct, you get some stupid questions, but if you look at the
    volume of stupid questions there is no comparison.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bruce Page
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all =
    have
    more experience than you.=20

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from =
    end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.

    -----Original Message-----=20
    From: Chris Griffith [ mailto:Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com
    ]=20
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO=20

    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else=20
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get =
    the=20
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone =
    else=20
    to figure out.=20

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too =
    many=20
    stupid questions.=20

    Chris Griffith=20
    OCP DBA=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    There seems to be differing views here.=20

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production =
    DBA's. I

    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades =
    (and=20
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my =
    DBA=20

    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I =
    have=20
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure =
    hardware to=20
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job =
    done.=20

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting =
    developers=20
    anytime!=20

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd=20
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services=20

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal=20
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've =
    worked=20
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all=20
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career =
    path.=20
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of=20
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me =
    vomit.

    That is just my personal preference.=20

    -----Original Message-----=20
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM=20
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L=20

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available =
    in=20
    the=20
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical =
    Infrastructure=20
    team=20
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System =

    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports =
    our=20
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.=20

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this=20
    individual=20
    will be responsible for:=20

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing =
    platforms=20
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related =
    products=20
    (e.g.,=20
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,=20
    Designer/2000,=20
    Browser).=20
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this=20
    capacity,=20
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:=20

    In-house applications=20
    3rd party software=20
    Database performance, capacity, recovery=20
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)=20
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.=20
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives =
    related to=20
    the=20
    DBA team.=20
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.=20
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary =
    DBA). =20

    M=20
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically =
    with=20
    Oracle=20
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be =
    able tom

    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong =
    interpersonal

    and=20
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other=20
    desirable=20
    experience:=20

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.=20
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas =
    Quick I/O.=20
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, =
    etc.), NFS,

    NIS, TCP/IP.=20

    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.=20
    =B7 Project Management.=20
    =B7 System Security.=20
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.=20
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.=20
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.=20

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information =
    Systems,=20
    or=20
    equivalent applicable work experience.=20

    Please send resume to :=20

    Alan Bowden=20
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company=20
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2=20
    Englewood, CO 80111=20
    FAX: (303) 737-4850=20
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com=20

    --=20
    Author: Donita Hilfinger=20
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20
    --=20
    Author: Jeff Wiegand=20
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20

    ************************************************************************=

    ***=20
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be =
    legally=20
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this=20
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, =
    copying,=20
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on =
    it,=20
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.=20
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this =

    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in =
    any=20
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship =

    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.=20

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender=20
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital =
    plc.=20

    ************************************************************************=

    ***=20
    --=20
    Author: Philip West=20
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L=20
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may=20
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).=20
    --=20
    Author: Chris Griffith=20
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com=20

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051=20
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=20
    --------------------------------------------------------------------=20

    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message=20
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in=20
  • Steve Boyd at May 17, 2000 at 7:06 pm
    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they come to
    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers with
    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBAs out
    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    7 Project Management.
    7 System Security.
    7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

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    ****************************************************************************
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
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    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
  • Rachel Carmichael at May 17, 2000 at 8:18 pm
    if an end user is asking that question over and over again, then you haven't
    taught him/her well enough. I believe in educating.... not just saying "you
    can't do that" and walking away
    From: Chris Griffith
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 11:56:13 -0800

    No, I'm one of the senior DBAs that works with a staff of over 70
    developers. I would rather solve their tuning questions than have an end
    user ask me over and over how to delete statistics from tables.

    You are correct, you get some stupid questions, but if you look at the
    volume of stupid questions there is no comparison.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    ]
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I

    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.

    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom

    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal

    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    7 Project Management.
    7 System Security.
    7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    ****************************************************************************

    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    ****************************************************************************

    ***
    --
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    --
    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

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    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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  • GenericOracleList at May 17, 2000 at 8:47 pm

    On 17 May 00 at 2:15, Philip West wrote:

    been in roles where I did everything ...
    wipe users bums
    Did you have to go through any special training/certification for that?
  • Bruce Page at May 17, 2000 at 9:15 pm
    This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
    this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC045.1FB712D2
    Content-Type: text/plain;

    charset="iso-8859-1"

    I was a developer for a few years, then a DBA for a couple, then went into
    application support, became a development DBA, and then a support DBA, then
    a Unix system administrator, and now doing level 2 DBA support.

    I have covered the whole ball of wax. Developers are supposed to be IT
    professionals. It is one thing for a newbie to ask stupid questions, that
    is how they learn. It is another for developers that are supposed to be
    experienced asking stupid questions. They should know what manuals to look
    in to get their answers. They should know how to run an explain plan. End
    users are not IT professionals. The standard for them is a lot lower, since
    they have other jobs to do. I have only worked for 1 company where IT was a
    real profit center. It's business was providing IT services to other
    companies. All other companies I have worked for, IT was a support service
    for the business. End users are out there trying to make money for the
    company, most IT shops only aids other parts of the company in making money.

    End users are who we need to get along with.

    I agree there are dense ones on all sides and we all need to learn to do our
    jobs and get them done.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Steve Boyd
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:16 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they come to

    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers with

    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBAs out

    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.
    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC045.1FB712D2
    Content-Type: text/html;

    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">

    RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I was a developer for a few years, then a DBA for a =
    couple, then went into application support, became a development DBA, =
    and then a support DBA, then a Unix system administrator, and now doing =
    level 2 DBA support.

    I have covered the whole ball of wax.&nbsp; =
    Developers are supposed to be IT professionals.&nbsp; It is one thing =
    for a newbie to ask stupid questions, that is how they learn.&nbsp; It =
    is another for developers that are supposed to be experienced asking =
    stupid questions.&nbsp; They should know what manuals to look in to get =
    their answers.&nbsp; They should know how to run an explain plan.&nbsp; =
    End users are not IT professionals.&nbsp; The standard for them is a =
    lot lower, since they have other jobs to do.&nbsp; I have only worked =
    for 1 company where IT was a real profit center.&nbsp; It's business =

    was providing IT services to other companies.&nbsp; All other companies =
    I have worked for, IT was a support service for the business.&nbsp; End =
    users are out there trying to make money for the company, most IT shops =

    only aids other parts of the company in making money.

    End users are who we need to get along with.

    I agree there are dense ones on all sides and we all =
    need to learn to do our jobs and get them done.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Steve Boyd [mailto:pimaco_oracle_at_hotmail.c=
    om]
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:16 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, =
    CO

    We should be more understanding of developers.&nbsp; =
    Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would =
    doesn't make them stupid.&nbsp;
    They do their job, we do ours.&nbsp; We are the =
    database experts, so they come to
    us with database questions.&nbsp; That's part of our =
    job--helping developers with
    database issues.&nbsp; I get kind of tired of DBAs =
    picking on developers.&nbsp; True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there =
    are some dense DBAs out
    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd

    &gt;From: Bruce Page &lt;bpage_at_kimball.com&gt;
    &gt;Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    &gt;To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L =
    &lt;ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com&gt;
    &gt;Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, =
    CO
    &gt;Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800
    &gt;
    &gt;Let me guess... you are the only developer in =
    your shop or they all have
    &gt;more experience than you.
    &gt;
    &gt;I have received as many stupid questions from =
    developers as I have from end
    &gt;users.&nbsp; And end users do not write code to =
  • Myron China at May 17, 2000 at 10:43 pm
    hi walt. ioug-a was the business trip from hell for me. couldn't find
    the
    shuttle guy at lax so took a $75 taxi ride to anaheim (ouch!) instead of
    a
    $13.50 shuttle van ride. arrived at hilton at 10:30am but couldn't
    check in until 3pm. tried to rent a car but the guy in front of me just
    took the last one (everybody else had the same idea) so cooled my heels
    at the power boat show next door (nothing like mingling with lots of los
    angeles rednecks). later on while relaxing in my hotel room, a guy
    walked in with
    his bags. apparently they overbooked and gave my room out again. shower
    vent
    fan dripped at times (over the tub). lost my free lunch meal tickets.

    otherwise, some of the presentations were good and made the trip
    worthwhile.

    how do you like our isis dba job description? no wonder nobody wants to
    apply for the job (especially after we tell them what the salary
    range is). they make lots more money managing a piddly 10gb database on
    an nt server instead of banging their head against our 600gb monster.
    personally, i'm into the "it feels so good when you stop (and go home)"
    syndrome.

    myron

    --

    ____________________________________________________
    Myron China (KB0LMQ) myron.china_at_gwl.com
    FASCORP Oracle Database Admin Ph:(303)737-3981
    Great-West Life Assurance Co. Fax:(303)737-4850
    Englewood, CO cqc #53 qrp-l #113
  • Myron China at May 17, 2000 at 10:50 pm
    OOOPPPS...i apologize for my faux paux. that reply was
    supposed to be personal.

    --

    ____________________________________________________
    Myron China (KB0LMQ) myron.china_at_gwl.com
    FASCORP Oracle Database Admin Ph:(303)737-3981
    Great-West Life Assurance Co. Fax:(303)737-4850
    Englewood, CO cqc #53 qrp-l #113
  • Terry Ball at May 18, 2000 at 2:12 pm
    Actually, my problem isn't with developers, per se. It is with the management
    that allows the stupidity to continue. When you have developers who want
    to put scripts into production without even testing the scripts to make sure
    nothing is going to break, and management lets it continue time after time, it
    can be really frustrating. If the developer WOULD just ask a question or
    two, it would be better than having to back out scripts.

    Terry

    Steve Boyd wrote:
    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they come to
    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers with
    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBAs out
    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    7 Project Management.
    7 System Security.
    7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

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    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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  • Dgoulet_at_vicr.com at May 18, 2000 at 3:16 pm
    Well, I can't speak for all developers, but the ones we have are pretty s=
    mart
    and they write some really good scripts (for the most part). And our man=
    agement
    requires that we test them out in a development area before running them =
    on
    production, so none of the previous bothers me. Where I have a problem i=
    s the
    end user community that drives the developers. There has been more than =
    a dozen
    cases where what the end user wanted was not what the developer delivered=

    because the end user was not sure what he/she wanted. In my book there i=
    s no
    substitute to good requirements definition and a clear understanding of t=
    hose
    requirements by both parties before the first line of code is written.

    Dick Goulet
    Senior Oracle DBA
    Vicor Corporation

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________

    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Author: Terry Ball
    Date: 5/18/00 7:24 AM

    Actually, my problem isn't with developers, per se. It is with the manag=
    ement
    that allows the stupidity to continue. When you have developers who want=

    to put scripts into production without even testing the scripts to make s=
    ure
    nothing is going to break, and management lets it continue time after tim=
    e, it
    can be really frustrating. If the developer WOULD just ask a question or=

    two, it would be better than having to back out scripts.

    Terry

    Steve Boyd wrote:
    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't=
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stup= id.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they co= me to
    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers= with
    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. T= rue,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBA= s out
    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all ha=
    ve
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have fro=
    m end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else=
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get t=
    he
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone=
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too=
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA=
    's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades =
    (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my=
    DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I =
    have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardwa=
    re to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job d=
    one.
    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting develope=
    rs
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've wo=
    rked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career p=
    ath.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position availabl=
    e in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastru=
    cture
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and Syste=
    m
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports=
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing pl=
    atforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related produc=
    ts
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives relat=
    ed to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DB=
    A).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically w=
    ith
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be ab=
    le
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other=
    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Qui=
    ck I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc=
    =2E),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Sys=
    tems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=
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    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    **********************************************************************=
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be leg=
    ally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, cop=
    ying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on=
    it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in th=
    is
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in a=
    ny
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationshi=
    p
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender=
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital pl=
    c.
    **********************************************************************=
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    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

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    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists=
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    _______________________________________________________________________= _
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.co= m
    --
    Author: Steve Boyd
    INET: pimaco_oracle_at_hotmail.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    =

    Author: Terry Ball
    INET: terry_ball_at_csgsystems.com

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  • Khedr, Waleed at May 18, 2000 at 3:37 pm
    You look angry of everybody. Either try to push things to change to better
    or find another place that will be perfect for you which I doubt.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Terry Ball
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 11:25 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Actually, my problem isn't with developers, per se. It is with the
    management
    that allows the stupidity to continue. When you have developers who want
    to put scripts into production without even testing the scripts to make sure
    nothing is going to break, and management lets it continue time after time,
    it
    can be really frustrating. If the developer WOULD just ask a question or
    two, it would be better than having to back out scripts.

    Terry

    Steve Boyd wrote:
    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they come to
    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers with
    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBAs out
    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from
    end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades
    (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my
    DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I
    have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware
    to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job
    done.
    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've
    worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career
    path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available
    in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports
    our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick
    I/O.
    7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    7 Project Management.
    7 System Security.
    7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
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    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    ***************************************************************************
    *
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be
    legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure,
    copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on
    it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    ***************************************************************************
    *
    ***
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    INET: pimaco_oracle_at_hotmail.com

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    INET: terry_ball_at_csgsystems.com

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  • A. Bardeen at May 18, 2000 at 5:14 pm
    In my book it's the old 80/20 rule: 80% of your
    problems come from 20% of your people. I work with
    DBA's, developers, and end users, and yet some of my
    dumbest questions come from my co-workers!

    I do hold developers to a higher standard than end
    users though, so I expect them to have a basic
    understanding of Oracle and relational db's in
    general.

    The stupid questions usually don't bother me, unless
    I'm having a bad day, and by in large I'm a pretty
    patient person. It's the same stupid question over
    and over again from the same person that I can't
    handle. Like the guy who asked me three times in as
    many hours how to generate a spool file showing the
    SQL commands. I told him he'd better write himself a
    note because if I had to do it for him it would get
    stapled to his forehead! Unfortunately all he's
    learned to do is not ask *me* the same question twice,
    which I guess is an improvement of sorts. He's
    definitely in the 20%. *sigh*

    Just my 2 cents...

    Anita

    Bruce Page wrote:
    I was a developer for a few years, then a DBA for a
    couple, then went into
    application support, became a development DBA, and
    then a support DBA, then
    a Unix system administrator, and now doing level 2
    DBA support.

    I have covered the whole ball of wax. Developers
    are supposed to be IT
    professionals. It is one thing for a newbie to ask
    stupid questions, that
    is how they learn. It is another for developers
    that are supposed to be
    experienced asking stupid questions. They should
    know what manuals to look
    in to get their answers. They should know how to
    run an explain plan. End
    users are not IT professionals. The standard for
    them is a lot lower, since
    they have other jobs to do. I have only worked for
    1 company where IT was a
    real profit center. It's business was providing IT
    services to other
    companies. All other companies I have worked for,
    IT was a support service
    for the business. End users are out there trying to
    make money for the
    company, most IT shops only aids other parts of the
    company in making money.

    End users are who we need to get along with.

    I agree there are dense ones on all sides and we all
    need to learn to do our
    jobs and get them done.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:16 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    We should be more understanding of developers. Just
    because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would
    doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database
    experts, so they come to

    us with database questions. That's part of our
    job--helping developers with

    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs
    picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there
    are some dense DBAs out

    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your
    shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from
    developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go
    against my databases.
  • Katherine Harms at May 18, 2000 at 5:43 pm
    Just for the record, I always try to remember that if there were no users, =
    there would be no need for DBAs, because nothing in the database would =
    ever change. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    KH

    Katherine Harms
    Oracle DBA
    Alegent Health
    402-717-1023
    kharms_at_alegent.org
  • Scott Shafer at May 18, 2000 at 7:17 pm
    Why not? They have another hand...

    Original Message -----
    From: "Katherine Harms"
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:53 PM
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Just for the record, I always try to remember that if there were no users,
    there would be no need for DBAs, because nothing in the database would ever
    change. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
    KH

    Katherine Harms
    Oracle DBA
    Alegent Health
    402-717-1023
    kharms_at_alegent.org

    --
    Author: Katherine Harms
    INET: KHarms_at_alegent.org
  • Gogala, Mladen at May 18, 2000 at 8:29 pm
    No need for a DBA??? This is an unimaginable situation. We create the
    databases,
    take 6 days to do the job, rest on the 7th day and then release the database
    to
    the world (users, developers and managers). Every once in a while, we let it
    rain
    for 40 days and 40 nights to avenge the sins committed (tables without
    primary keys,
    unselective indexes, no storage specifications etc.), the procedure
    otherwise known
    as the database reorganization. The only thing is that we do not use doves
    to communicate
    the completion of the procedure to the users, we use much more convenient
    email systems.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Katherine Harms
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 2:54 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Just for the record, I always try to remember that if there were no users,
    there would be no need for DBAs, because nothing in the database would ever
    change. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

    KH

    Katherine Harms
    Oracle DBA
    Alegent Health
    402-717-1023
    kharms_at_alegent.org

    --
    Author: Katherine Harms
    INET: KHarms_at_alegent.org

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  • Khedr, Waleed at May 18, 2000 at 9:26 pm
    I do not think they have any more!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Scott Shafer
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 4:24 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Why not? They have another hand...

    Original Message -----
    To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:53 PM
    Just for the record, I always try to remember that if there were no users,
    there would be no need for DBAs, because nothing in the database would ever
    change. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
    KH

    Katherine Harms
    Oracle DBA
    Alegent Health
    402-717-1023
    kharms_at_alegent.org

    --
    Author: Katherine Harms
    INET: KHarms_at_alegent.org
    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
  • Gregory Conron at May 18, 2000 at 9:55 pm

    On Thu, 18 May 2000, Katherine Harms wrote:

    Just for the record, I always try to remember that if there
    were no users, there would be no need for DBAs, because nothing
    in the database would ever change. Don't bite the hand that
    feeds you.

    Ah, but the cynical among us would state that we need end-users
    the same way cops need criminals ... :)

    Cheers,
    GC
    --
    There is something inherently wrong with the world when Bill Gates is a
    famous billionaire and Dennis Ritchie lives in relative obscurity.
  • LBhat_at_LEVI.com at May 19, 2000 at 6:50 am
    H Steve,

    There you are balancing the scale.

    Bhat

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Steve Boyd
    Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 4:16 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    We should be more understanding of developers. Just because they don't
    understand some of the concepts that a DBA would doesn't make them stupid.
    They do their job, we do ours. We are the database experts, so they come to

    us with database questions. That's part of our job--helping developers with

    database issues. I get kind of tired of DBAs picking on developers. True,
    there are some dense developers out there, but there are some dense DBAs out

    there too.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Steve Boyd
    From: Bruce Page
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:44:59 -0800

    Let me guess... you are the only developer in your shop or they all have
    more experience than you.

    I have received as many stupid questions from developers as I have from end
    users. And end users do not write code to go against my databases.


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:29 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    * Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    * Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    * The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    * Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    * Document all operations procedures related to team.
    * Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    * Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    * EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    * UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    * Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    * Project Management.
    * System Security.
    * Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    * X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    * Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    *************************************************************************** *
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  • Charles Wolfe at May 19, 2000 at 9:41 am
    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate that we deign to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic consider you stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a daily basis is
    the height of hubris.

    Original Message -----
    From: Chris Griffith
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    · Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    · Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    · The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    · Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    · Document all operations procedures related to team.
    · Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    · Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    · EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    · UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    · Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    · Project Management.
    · System Security.
    · Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    · X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    · Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ****************************************************************************
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    ****************************************************************************
    ***
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    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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  • Maheshwara Rao, L., Teki at May 19, 2000 at 11:10 am
    Charles,

    agree with you totally. put it very clearly. DBA, after all, is also an
    employee and that too he need to respect other peoples skills and start
    living in teams.

    Maheshwara Rao, L., Teki
    E Mail : teki01_at_mediaone.net

    -----Original Message-----
    From: root_at_fatcity.com On Behalf Of Charles
    Wolfe
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 6:44 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate that we deign to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic consider you stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a daily basis is
    the height of hubris.

    Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM

    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    · Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    · Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:

    In-house applications
    3rd party software
    Database performance, capacity, recovery
    Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    · The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    · Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    · Document all operations procedures related to team.
    · Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    · Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    · EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    · UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.

    · Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    · Project Management.
    · System Security.
    · Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    · X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    · Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com

    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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    ***
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    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    ****************************************************************************
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    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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    Author: Charles Wolfe
    INET: cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com

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  • Miguel Urosa at May 19, 2000 at 11:36 am
    I totally agree with you Charles.
    -----Mensaje original-----
    De: Charles Wolfe [SMTP:cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com]
    Enviado el: viernes 19 de mayo de 2000 12:44
    Para: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Asunto: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate that we deign
    to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't
    astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a question
    regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic consider you
    stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a daily basis
    is
    the height of hubris.


    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware
    to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    · Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    · Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    · The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    · Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    · Document all operations procedures related to team.
    · Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    · Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    · EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick
    I/O.
    · UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    · Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    · Project Management.
    · System Security.
    · Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    · X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    · Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    **************************************************************************
    **
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure,
    copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    **************************************************************************
    **
    ***
    --
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    --
    Author: Charles Wolfe
    INET: cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com

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    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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  • Jamadagni, Rajendra at May 19, 2000 at 11:48 am
    I think this battle can be summarized as ...

    When you are driving ... anyone who drives slower than you is a STUPID and
    anyone who is driving faster than you is a complete IDIOT.

    C'mon guys, its Friday, time for a new recipe from "The" Guy ....

    Happy Friday from a wet and soaked Bristol, Connecticut.

    Cheers
  • Rachel Carmichael at May 19, 2000 at 1:43 pm
    Chuck,

    Now, tell us how you REALLY feel

    Yea, bottom line is, my developers don't know the database... but then I
    can't program in Java. Everyone does what they do best. And I truly believe
    in "an educated user is our best customer" (to paraphrase the commercial)...
    I explain, probably in more detail than they want to know, anything they ask

    Rachel
    From: "Charles Wolfe"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:44:12 -0800

    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate that we deign to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a question
    regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic consider you stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a daily basis is
    the height of hubris.


    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    � Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    � Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    � The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    � Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    � Document all operations procedures related to team.
    � Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    � Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    � EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick I/O.
    � UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    � Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    � Project Management.
    � System Security.
    � Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    � X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    � Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
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    Author: Jeff Wiegand
    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    ****************************************************************************
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    ****************************************************************************
    ***
    --
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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    --
    Author: Charles Wolfe
    INET: cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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  • Bruce Page at May 19, 2000 at 1:44 pm
    This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
    this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC198.5C0BB888
    Content-Type: text/plain;

    charset="iso-8859-1"

    That is why I keep a hand grenade on my desk and a .357 magnum in my truck.
    I figure God is a much better judge of who is stupid and who is an idiot. I
    can always go off the deep, send them to him, and let him sort it all out.
    :)

    I have two little notes on the grenade. On the body of it I have "Request
    Queue. Take a number.". On the pin I have "1".

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jamadagni, Rajendra
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:57 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I think this battle can be summarized as ...

    When you are driving ... anyone who drives slower than you is a STUPID and
    anyone who is driving faster than you is a complete IDIOT.

    C'mon guys, its Friday, time for a new recipe from "The" Guy ....

    Happy Friday from a wet and soaked Bristol, Connecticut.

    Cheers
    Raj

    --
    Author: Jamadagni, Rajendra
    INET: rajendra.jamadagni_at_espn.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).

    ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFC198.5C0BB888
    Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">

    RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    That is why I keep a hand grenade on my desk and a =
    .357 magnum in my truck.&nbsp; I figure God is a much better judge of =
    who is stupid and who is an idiot.&nbsp; I can always go off the deep, =
    send them to him, and let him sort it all out. :)

    I have two little notes on the grenade.&nbsp; On the =
    body of it I have &quot;Request Queue.&nbsp; Take a =
    number.&quot;.&nbsp; On the pin I have &quot;1&quot;.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:rajendra.jamadagni_at_es=
    pn.com]
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 7:57 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, =
    CO

    I think this battle can be summarized as ...

    When you are driving ... anyone who drives slower =
    than you is a STUPID and
    anyone who is driving faster than you is a complete =
    IDIOT.

    C'mon guys, its Friday, time for a new recipe from =
    &quot;The&quot; Guy ....

    Happy Friday from a wet and soaked Bristol, =
    Connecticut.

    Cheers
    Raj
    --
    Author: Jamadagni, Rajendra
    &nbsp; INET: rajendra.jamadagni_at_espn.com

    Fat City Network Services&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- (858) =
    538-5051&nbsp; FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, =
    California&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Public Internet =
    access / Mailing Lists
    ---------------------------------------------------------------=
    -----
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  • George.Brennan_at_warnermusic.com at May 19, 2000 at 1:54 pm
    Oh give the guy a break, where's your sense of humour?.
    You're both being as intolerant as you claim he is!
    he's also an employee
    respect other peoples skills
    start living in teams
    You don't know that is/isn't the case.
    He's also entitled to his opinion.
    Does your accountant consider you stupid when you ask him or her a
    question regarding a new tax law?
    No but,
    1. you're assuming an intelligent question and
    2. he might think so if I was a book keeper and it was the 3rd time I'd asked. ( same domain )

    regards
    George.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: "Maheshwara Rao, L., Teki"

    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 1:15 PM
    To: smtp_at_inl001@servers["Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L"
    ]
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO


    Charles,

    agree with you totally. put it very clearly. DBA, after all,
    is also an
    employee and that too he need to respect other peoples skills
    and start
    living in teams.

    Maheshwara Rao, L., Teki
    E Mail : teki01_at_mediaone.net

    -----Original Message-----
    Wolfe
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 6:44 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts
    I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate
    that we deign to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how
    talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't
    astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant
    consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax
    law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a
    question regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic
    consider you stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they
    are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a
    daily basis is
    the height of hubris.


    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do.
    We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for
    everyone else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users.
    Users ask too many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many
    production DBA's. I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of
    all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I
    sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their
    code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and
    configure hardware to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get
    the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting
    developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six
    months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a
    career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to
    make me vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position
    available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators
    and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment
    supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    =B7 Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed
    computing platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and
    related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    =B7 Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    =B7 The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    =B7 Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project
    initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    =B7 Document all operations procedures related to team.
    =B7 Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as
    primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience,
    specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs
    to be able tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions.
    Strong interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    =B7 Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    =B7 EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System,
    Veritas Quick I/O.
    =B7 UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar,
    cpio, etc.), NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    =B7 Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    =B7 Project Management.
    =B7 System Security.
    =B7 Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    =B7 X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    =B7 Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or
    Information Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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    **************************************************************
    **************
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and
    may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any
    disclosure, copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in
    reliance on it,
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    When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice
    contained in this
    Internet e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions
    expressed in any
    applicable documentation or market practices governing the
    relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban
    Intercapital plc.
    **************************************************************
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    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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    --
    Author: Charles Wolfe
    INET: cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com

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    --
    Author: Maheshwara Rao, L., Teki
    INET: teki01_at_mediaone.net

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  • Chris Griffith at May 19, 2000 at 3:36 pm
    I see nothing wrong with a few DBAs venting their frustrations to eachother.
    Better this way than to the users and developers themselves.

    As a DBA we are often faced with the fixing everyone else's problems and
    answering everyone else's questions. We should be able to blow off some
    steam every once in a while.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jamadagni, Rajendra
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 8:57 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    I think this battle can be summarized as ...

    When you are driving ... anyone who drives slower than you is a STUPID and
    anyone who is driving faster than you is a complete IDIOT.

    C'mon guys, its Friday, time for a new recipe from "The" Guy ....

    Happy Friday from a wet and soaked Bristol, Connecticut.

    Cheers
    Raj

    --
    Author: Jamadagni, Rajendra
    INET: rajendra.jamadagni_at_espn.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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  • Don Jerman at May 19, 2000 at 7:00 pm
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --------------05D0B0C8E32754DBACDB1F0C
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    More precisely, we use convenient email interfaces, whether the network used to
    deliver the email uses an avian transport layer or not (c.f. RFC 1149, Waitzman,
    1990)

    "Gogala, Mladen" wrote:
    No need for a DBA??? This is an unimaginable situation. We create the
    databases,
    take 6 days to do the job, rest on the 7th day and then release the database
    to
    the world (users, developers and managers). Every once in a while, we let it
    rain
    for 40 days and 40 nights to avenge the sins committed (tables without
    primary keys,
    unselective indexes, no storage specifications etc.), the procedure
    otherwise known
    as the database reorganization. The only thing is that we do not use doves
    to communicate
    the completion of the procedure to the users, we use much more convenient
    email systems.

    ----
    --------------05D0B0C8E32754DBACDB1F0C

    Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
    name="djerman.vcf"

    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Content-Description: Card for Don Jerman
    Content-Disposition: attachment;

    filename="djerman.vcf"

    begin:vcard
    n:Jerman;Don
    tel;work:919.250.4177 x282
    x-mozilla-html:TRUE
    org:Engineering Applications Dev. Unit,Engineering Technology Systems,Preconstruction,Division of Highways
    version:2.1
    email;internet:djerman_at_dot.state.nc.us
    title:Database Administrator
    adr;quoted-printable:;;Engineering Applications Dev. Unit,Engineering Technology Systems,Preconstruction,Division of Highways=0D=0A1020 Birch Ridge Drive;Raleigh;NC;27610;USA
    x-mozilla-cpt:;-9536
    fn:Don Jerman
    end:vcard
  • Guy ruth hammond at May 21, 2000 at 7:31 pm

    Bruce Page wrote:

    If you can explain to them in a manner they understand, the users are the
    best source to get system requirements from.
    Wise words!

    Cheers,

    g

    --
    guy ruth hammond | Happiness is a loaded weapon, and
    Technology Analysis & Consulting | a short cut is better by far.
    07879607148 http://www.agency.com | -- The Sisters of Mercy
  • VIVEK_SHARMA at May 22, 2000 at 8:27 am
    seconded
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Charles Wolfe [SMTP:cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com]
    Sent: Friday, May 19, 2000 4:14 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    This has to be one of the most arrogant, self-important posts I have seen
    recently on any of the lists. You sound as if you think a DBA is some
    superior form of life, and that everyone else is fortunate that we deign
    to
    even acknowledge their existence.

    Get off your high horse. No matter how highly we DBAs may think of
    ourselves, when it comes down to it, a DBA, no matter how talented, is yet
    another skilled technician in the IT field. What we do isn't
    astrophysics,
    and it isn't cardio-thoracic surgery. Does your accountant consider you
    stupid when you ask him or her a question regarding a new tax law? Does
    your doctor consider you stupid when you ask him or her a question
    regarding
    the care you are receiving? Does your garage mechanic consider you
    stupid
    when you ask a question regarding a problem with your car?

    Users and developers are not stupid, and to presume that they are simply
    because they are unfamiliar with concepts you deal with on a daily basis
    is
    the height of hubris.


    ----- Original Message -----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:28 AM


    I agree. The job of the DBA seems to be everything that everyone else
    either doesn't want to do or doesn't have the ability to do. We get the
    wonderful task of figuring out all of the things too hard for everyone
    else
    to figure out.

    But, I would much rather support developers than users. Users ask too
    many
    stupid questions.

    Chris Griffith
    OCP DBA
    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:15 AM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    There seems to be differing views here.

    I would suggest that this is a very typical jd for many production DBA's.
    I
    would go on to suggest that many DBA's are in deed jack of all trades (and
    master of some, I would hope). I have been in roles where I sat on my DBA
    throne and dictated to developers on how to optimise their code and I have
    been in roles where I did everything from install and configure hardware
    to
    wipe users bums. Your typical DBA does what's needed to get the job done.

    And I would take a week supporting uses over a day supporting developers
    anytime!

    Phil West - Impex IT ltd
    Unix Sys Admin and Oracle Financials DBA Services

    [ all opinions, unless otherwise stated, are personal
    and subject to change without reason or warning ! ]


    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:40 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L


    I've been an Oracle DBA for 1.5 years. For the last six months I've worked
    as a Java developer, in addition to supporting Oracle databases (all
    development). I'm at a crossroads here, trying to decide on a career path.
    Is the job description below pretty typical for DBA work? The idea of
    providing help desk support and end user support is enough to make me
    vomit.
    That is just my personal preference.

    -----Original Message-----
    Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:04 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L



    Currently, Great-West Life has a full-time permanent position available in
    the
    Financial Services Systems Division working on the Technical
    Infrastructure
    team
    (comprised of System Administrators, Database Administrators and System
    Programmers). This challenging and team-oriented environment supports our
    rapidly growing Financial Services Division.

    Helping to set long-term technical direction for the division, this
    individual
    will be responsible for:

    * Providing technical support on UNIX-based distributed computing
    platforms
    (specifically Sun/Solaris systems) for Oracle RDBMS and related products
    (e.g.,
    SQL*Plus, Pro*C, PL/SQL, Developer/2000 specifically Forms 4.5,
    Designer/2000,
    Browser).
    * Perform 1st and 2nd Tier Help Desk and end-user support. In this
    capacity,
    will analyze and resolve technical issues relating to:
    - In-house applications
    - 3rd party software
    - Database performance, capacity, recovery
    - Hardware and associated peripherals (some)
    * The installation and management of Oracle related products.
    * Acting as team lead/coordinator of major project initiatives related to
    the
    DBA team.
    * Document all operations procedures related to team.
    * Some on-call time required (no more than 1/4 of year as primary DBA).
    M
    ust have previous database administration experience, specifically with
    Oracle
    v7.x and v8.x, preferably on Sun Solaris environments. Needs to be able
    tom
    ultitask and deal with a high-level of interruptions. Strong
    interpersonal
    and
    communication skills a requirement to succeed in this position. Other
    desirable
    experience:

    * Sun Servers, Solaris operating system.
    * EcoTools, Veritas Volume Manager, Veritas File System, Veritas Quick
    I/O.
    * UNIX Tools & Utilities, (C/Bourne/Korn shell, Perl, tar, cpio, etc.),
    NFS,
    NIS, TCP/IP.
    * Intranet, Internet & Extranet, and WEB server environments.
    * Project Management.
    * System Security.
    * Server Capacity Planning and Performance Tuning.
    * X-terminals, Workstations, PCs.
    * Multi-threaded server experience.

    This position requires a degree in Computer Science or Information
    Systems,
    or
    equivalent applicable work experience.

    Please send resume to :

    Alan Bowden
    Great-West Life & Annuity Insurance Company
    8515 E. Orchard Rd., MS-5T2
    Englewood, CO 80111
    FAX: (303) 737-4850
    EMAIL: alan.bowden_at_gwl.com


    --
    Author: Donita Hilfinger
    INET: dohi_at_gwl.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
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    INET: jwiegand_at_ancept.com

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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).


    **************************************************************************
    **
    ***
    The information in this Internet e-mail is confidential and may be legally
    privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
    Internet e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised and any disclosure,
    copying,
    distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it,
    is prohibited and may be unlawful.
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    applicable documentation or market practices governing the relationship
    between Garban Intercapital plc and its clients.

    Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
    except where they are stated to be the views of Garban Intercapital plc.
    **************************************************************************
    **
    ***
    --
    Author: Philip West
    INET: P.West_at_g-icap.com

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    Author: Chris Griffith
    INET: Chris.Griffith_at_dstm.com

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    Author: Charles Wolfe
    INET: cwolfe_at_ix.netcom.com

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  • Guy ruth hammond at May 22, 2000 at 8:58 pm

    dgoulet_at_vicr.com wrote:

    NO WAY!!! That's cast in dried concrete.
    Carved in marble, you mean - goddesses are classy!

    g

    --
    guy ruth hammond | Happiness is a loaded weapon, and
    Technology Analysis & Consulting | a short cut is better by far.
    07879607148 http://www.agency.com | -- The Sisters of Mercy
  • Rachel Carmichael at May 23, 2000 at 2:21 am
    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs! PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have my feet left after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

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    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
  • Dgoulet_at_vicr.com at May 23, 2000 at 1:06 pm
    Much better!!

    ____________________Reply Separator____________________

    Subject: Re: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Author: guy ruth hammond
    Date: 5/23/00 12:53 AM

    dgoulet_at_vicr.com wrote:
    NO WAY!!! That's cast in dried concrete.
    Carved in marble, you mean - goddesses are classy!

    g

    --
    guy ruth hammond | Happiness is a loaded weapon, and
    Technology Analysis & Consulting | a short cut is better by far.
    07879607148 http://www.agency.com | -- The Sisters of Mercy

    --
    Author: guy ruth hammond
    INET: grh_at_agency.com

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  • Jared Still at May 23, 2000 at 4:34 pm
    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so down-to-earth. :)

    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs! PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and cherries on top? :)

    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have my feet left after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    ________________________________________________________________________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
  • Ngo, Tan at May 23, 2000 at 6:47 pm
    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jared Still
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO



    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so down-to-earth. :)

    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A
    and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs!
    PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and
    cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have
    my feet left
    after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
    Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like
    subscribing).
    ______________________________________________________________
    __________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
    http://www.hotmail.com
    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
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    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private

    --
    Author: Jared Still
    INET: jkstill_at_bcbso.com

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  • Shantanu Talukder at May 23, 2000 at 7:14 pm
    Oracle 8i ( 8.1.x) and Oracle 8( 8.0.x)are two
    different product, but Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x is
    same product.

    HTH,

    Shantanu
    --- "Ngo, Tan" wrote:
    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x
    - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite
    confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jared Still
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO



    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so
    down-to-earth. :)
    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal
    at IOUG-A
    and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the
    DBAs!
    PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream
    and
    cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA
    opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I
    still have
    my feet left
    after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is
    actually "cement shoes"
    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051
    FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet
    access /
    Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send
    an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling
    of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing:
    UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be
    removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other
    information (like
    subscribing).
    __________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail
    at
    http://www.hotmail.com
    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051
    FAX: (858) 538-5051
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    access / Mailing Lists

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be
    removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information
    (like subscribing).

    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist
    ;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private


    --
    Author: Jared Still
    INET: jkstill_at_bcbso.com

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    (858) 538-5051
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    access / Mailing Lists
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    E-Mail message
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    ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
    from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information
    (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Ngo, Tan
    INET: TNGO_at_EFTIA.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
    (858) 538-5051
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
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    also send the HELP command for other information
  • Joe Testa at May 23, 2000 at 7:24 pm
    8.1 = software version
    8i = marketing hype

    joe

    "Ngo, Tan" wrote:
    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jared Still
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO



    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so down-to-earth. :)

    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A
    and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs!
    PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and
    cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have
    my feet left
    after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
    Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like
    subscribing).
    ______________________________________________________________
    __________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
    http://www.hotmail.com
    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private

    --
    Author: Jared Still
    INET: jkstill_at_bcbso.com

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    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Ngo, Tan
    INET: TNGO_at_EFTIA.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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  • Winnie_Liu_at_infonet.com at May 23, 2000 at 8:31 pm
    Oracle 8i release 1 -> Oracle 8.1.5 database
    Oracle 8i release 2 -> Oracle 8.1.6 database

    There will not be an Oracle 8.1.7 database in the future. IT will go right
    to 8.2..

    Winnie

    "Ngo, Tan" on 05/23/2000 12:56:03 PM

    Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    cc: (bcc: Winnie Liu/HQ/ISC)

    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO

    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jared Still
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO



    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so down-to-earth. :)

    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A
    and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs!
    PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and
    cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have
    my feet left
    after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access /
    Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like
    subscribing).
    ______________________________________________________________
    __________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
    http://www.hotmail.com
    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private

    --
    Author: Jared Still
    INET: jkstill_at_bcbso.com

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    --
    Author: Ngo, Tan
    INET: TNGO_at_EFTIA.com

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  • PD Miller at May 23, 2000 at 11:36 pm

    At 11:56 am -0800 23/5/00, Ngo, Tan wrote:
    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    Features of 8i:

    Parallel everything
    Java everywhere with world's-fastest java RTE
    Full object relational database
    Internet-enabled
    massive VLDB support
    complete integrated LOB implemetation
    iFS

    Features of 8.1.x:

    Parallel DML and IDL with exactly the right conditions
    Java via PL/SQL with a fairly mediocre java RTE
    Object ideas tacked haphazardly onto an RDBMS
    WebDB included
    Partitions and IOT's that break most PL/SQL
    LOB implementation that is only good compared to Oracle 7 LONG
    We never promised iFS as part of this release...

    -
    Carib Data Limited

    <http://www.caribdata.co.uk>
  • A. Bardeen at May 24, 2000 at 12:32 am
    Winnie,

    I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. 8.1.7 *is* a
    planned release with an estimated release date of the
    end of this year. Not all platforms, however, have
    all releases, for example NetWare did not have a
    7.3.3, or 8.0.5 release.

    Anita

    8.2 is scheduled for release next year some time.

    Winnie_Liu_at_infonet.com wrote:
    Oracle 8i release 1 -> Oracle 8.1.5 database
    Oracle 8i release 2 -> Oracle 8.1.6 database

    There will not be an Oracle 8.1.7 database in the
    future. IT will go right
    to 8.2..

    Winnie





    "Ngo, Tan" on 05/23/2000 12:56:03
    PM

    Please respond to ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com

    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

    cc: (bcc: Winnie Liu/HQ/ISC)





    Jared,

    What is the difference in Oracle 8i and Oracle 8.1.x
    - Some told me that
    they are the same. Could you explain. I'm quite
    confused between these
    versions, and I think I am not alone.

    Thanks
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jared Still
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 1:45 PM
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO



    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so
    down-to-earth. :)
    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal
    at IOUG-A
    and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the
    DBAs!
    PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream
    and
    cherries on top? :)
    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA
    opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I
    still have
    my feet left
    after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is
    actually "cement shoes"
    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051
    FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet
    access /
    Mailing Lists
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send
    an E-Mail message
    to: ListGuru_at_fatcity.com (note EXACT spelling
    of 'ListGuru') and in
    the message BODY, include a line containing:
    UNSUB ORACLE-L
    (or the name of mailing list you want to be
    removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other
    information (like
    subscribing).
    __________
    Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail
    at
    http://www.hotmail.com
    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051
    FAX: (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet
    access / Mailing Lists

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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be
    removed from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information
    (like subscribing).

    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist
    ;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private


    --
    Author: Jared Still
    INET: jkstill_at_bcbso.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
    (858) 538-5051
    San Diego, California -- Public Internet
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
    from). You may
    also send the HELP command for other information
    (like subscribing).
    --
    Author: Ngo, Tan
    INET: TNGO_at_EFTIA.com

    Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX:
    (858) 538-5051
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    (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed
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    also send the HELP command for other information
    (like subscribing).







    --
    Author:
    INET: Winnie_Liu_at_infonet.com

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  • Rachel Carmichael at May 24, 2000 at 3:12 am
    well, at least you've met me..... tell them all I don't deserve the
    pedestal!

    Rachel
    From: Jared Still
    To: Rachel Carmichael
    CC: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT)


    Well,this just makes sense Rachel, as you are so down-to-earth. :)

    Jared
    On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rachel Carmichael wrote:

    no no no no I climbed down off that pedestal at IOUG-A and it felt so good
    I wanna stay on the ground with the rest of the DBAs! PLEASE?????????
    Pretty please? Pretty please with whipped cream and cherries on top? :)

    From: "Scott Shafer"
    Reply-To: ORACLE-L_at_fatcity.com
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]:RE: Oracle DBA opening in Englewood, CO
    Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:04:52 -0800

    Nah! That's just a cold pedestal...

    LOL,
    Scott Shafer
    San Antonio, TX

    -----Original Message-----
    To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
    Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 6:49 PM

    well, I appreciate the offer.... but would I still have my feet left after
    that? I get the feeling the concrete is actually "cement shoes"

    :)

    --
    Author: Scott Shafer
    INET: scott.shafer_at_ildmail.com

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    --
    Author: Rachel Carmichael
    INET: carmichr_at_hotmail.com

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    Jared Still
    Certified Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist;-)
    Regence BlueCross BlueShield of Oregon
    jkstill_at_bcbso.com - Work - preferred address
    jkstill_at_teleport.com - private

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