FAQ
Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.

Facts:

- CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many
parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It
consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each
other.

- Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g.
'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity').

- CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with
unknown styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar"
should not have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part
of any CSS standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there
at all.

- The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that
they promote active use of the spec.

With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in
Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause
any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra
UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g.
text-shadow in Garland, for Safari).

The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a
warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in
core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours.
Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in
Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have
some sort of development tools active.

It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal
doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?".
IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking
to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.

Objections? :P

Steven Wittens

Search Discussions

  • Steven Wittens at Jan 4, 2007 at 2:50 am
    Oh and extra about Firefox/Mozilla/Gecko:

    Several CSS3 parts are modeled after existing browser extensions.
    Mozilla for example has a range of "-moz" styles that are
    experimental. Opacity used to be "-moz-opacity", but support for the
    CSS3 "opacity" attribute was added explicitly somewhere in 1.x.
    "border-radius" does not yet work, and you still have to use "-moz-
    border-radius".

    This is IMO another good reason to use CSS3, as Mozilla is actively
    incorporating it into the browser, in accordance with the draft spec
    and other browser usage.

    Steven Wittens
  • Khalid B at Jan 4, 2007 at 2:55 am

    On 1/3/07, Steven Wittens wrote:
    Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
    people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.

    I am no CSS guru, nor do I play one on TV.

    With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in
    Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause
    any problems in older browsers

    If it would not cause any problems, then I am all for it. However,
    the devil is in the details. See below.

    The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a
    warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in
    core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours.

    In general, such a warning is harmless, and I can live with it. Others
    may be more picky though.

    What I don't like is the reasoning ("their fault nor ours") when it comes to

    the web and internet.

    The internet is composed of many parts, and our part (drupal)
    has to be displayed within the parts of others (Firefox, IE, ...etc.)

    We can't just say that this is not our problem and leave the user
    out in the cold.

    We have done so in the past, but corrected our mistakes (e.g.
    the <base href="..."> thing, various MS IE ugliness, ...etc.)

    We cannot fix the faults of other software, but we will have to
    live with them for the time being.

    The least we could do here is a) document this, and b) file a bug
    with Firefox and see what they say.

    Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in
    Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have
    some sort of development tools active.

    What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
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  • Steven Wittens at Jan 4, 2007 at 2:59 am
    What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
    No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper
    Toolbar. I think you might be able to go to the console using a
    special about: url too, I'm not sure. Point is: this only affects
    developers, so that's why we should tell the developers that it's
    actually CSS3 and not a bug.

    My goal is certainly to document this, but at least we should agree
    on this first :).

    Steven Wittens
  • Khalid B at Jan 4, 2007 at 3:09 am

    On 1/3/07, Steven Wittens wrote:
    What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
    No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper
    Toolbar. I think you might be able to go to the console using a
    special about: url too, I'm not sure. Point is: this only affects
    developers, so that's why we should tell the developers that it's
    actually CSS3 and not a bug.

    I have Firebug installed, and never noticed this one on any 5.0 site
    I worked with or visited (including the recently upgraded groups.d.o).

    So, I think this can be ignored.

    My goal is certainly to document this, but at least we should agree
    on this first :).

    If it is not visible to end users, then I don't care. I objected to the
    reasoning rather than the specific bug.

    I guess this means I agree.
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  • Earnie Boyd at Jan 4, 2007 at 3:35 pm

    Quoting Steven Wittens <steven at acko.net>:

    What sort of development tool triggers that? devel module?
    No, you need a Firefox extension such as Firebug or Webdeveloper Toolbar.
    Actually, nothing more than delivered in a standard FF install,
    JavaScript Console (JSC). The JSC displays it as an error not as a
    warning.

    Steven, you've convenced me. I'll agree and discuss other points back
    in the issue. BTW, Mozilla doesn't display this error, while Firefox
    does.

    Earnie
  • Darrel O'Pry at Jan 4, 2007 at 3:08 am

    On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 18:30 -0800, Steven Wittens wrote:
    Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
    people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.

    Facts:

    - CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many
    parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It
    consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each
    other.

    - Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g.
    'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity').

    - CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with
    unknown styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar"
    should not have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part
    of any CSS standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there
    at all.

    - The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that
    they promote active use of the spec.

    With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in
    Drupal, namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause
    any problems in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra
    UI cues (opacity for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g.
    text-shadow in Garland, for Safari).

    The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a
    warning in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in
    core). While annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours.
    Especially because Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in
    Garland (e.g. "opacity: 0.5"). It is also only visible if you have
    some sort of development tools active.

    It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal
    doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?".
    IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking
    to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.

    Objections? :P

    Steven Wittens
    I have none. Maybe if people start using it, adoption and ratification
    process will accelerate. I would like to see that happen myself.

    .darrel.
  • Gordon Heydon at Jan 4, 2007 at 4:21 am
    Hi,

    Darrel O'Pry wrote:
    On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 18:30 -0800, Steven Wittens wrote:
    Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
    people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.
    ...
    IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking
    to a standard, and one which has real-world implementations.

    Objections? :P

    Steven Wittens
    I have none. Maybe if people start using it, adoption and ratification
    process will accelerate. I would like to see that happen myself.
    I am of the same feeling. If we (web developers) show a use for these
    new specifications, then the W3C is more likely to move faster in
    setting them as standard.

    Also with the fact that as of firefox 3 (the current dev tree) 3 of the
    4 major browsers will be ACID2 compliant (Opera, Safari, and in dev
    Firefox) we should be starting to push the css standards more where it
    doesn't break that other browser.

    Gordon.
  • Morbus Iff at Jan 4, 2007 at 3:57 am
    Objections? :P
    None from me.

    Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with forthcoming comments.

    --
    Morbus Iff ( shower your women, i'm coming )
    Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
    Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
    icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
  • Dries Buytaert at Jan 4, 2007 at 7:46 am

    On 04 Jan 2007, at 03:30, Steven Wittens wrote:
    It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal
    doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error
    message?". IMO this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is
    still sticking to a standard, and one which has real-world
    implementations.
    I'm perfectly OK with using the latest web technologies as long it
    doesn't leave too many people in the cold. As this doesn't appear to
    be the case, using (a subset of) CSS3 seems perfectly valid.

    --
    Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
  • Bèr Kessels at Jan 4, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Op donderdag 4 januari 2007 03:30, schreef Steven Wittens:
    Objections? :P
    None. A big +1 for this initiative!

    One thing to keep in mind though.
    Example: drop shadow works in Konqueror and safari. Quite often did I come
    across (plone) sites that have text-shadow, but were apparently hacked by a
    clueless designer with only firefox or IE at disposal: the text is unreadable
    in konq.

    The "advanced" elements are invisible for many "designers" hence these
    designers are not even aware of them: resulting in awful, or unreadable sites
    for those with browsers that do support them.

    I don't know how to deal with this, though, maybe just filing bugs against
    themes with those problems would do?

    B?r

    --
    Drupal, Ruby on Rails and Joomla! development: webschuur.com | Drupal hosting:
    www.sympal.nl
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  • Andre Molnar at Jan 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm
    Well, I'm 100% for standards compliance - but actual standards.

    I have no problem with themes including stylesheets that push the
    envelope a bit (to use CSS3) - but if a stylesheet is included with a
    core module then it should be compliant with the current standard.

    to summarize: Themes - use whatever styles they want (valid or not)
    Modules - validated css to current standard

    In any case CORE functionality or usability should not rely on on CSS3.

    andre


    Steven Wittens wrote:
    Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
    people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.

    Facts:

    - CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many
    parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It
    consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each other.

    - Several parts of CSS3 are already well supported by some (e.g.
    'display') or even all the major browsers (e.g. 'opacity').

    - CSS has always clearly specified how parsers are to deal with unknown
    styles. e.g. Setting "bunnies: fluffy" or "display: foobar" should not
    have any effect in any modern browser, as it is not part of any CSS
    standard. Both rules are treated as if they weren't there at all.

    - The W3C provides a CSS3 option in their CSS validator, showing that
    they promote active use of the spec.

    With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal,
    namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems
    in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity
    for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in
    Garland, for Safari).

    The only big problem for now is that some of the CSS3 throws a warning
    in Firefox's debug log (e.g. "display: inline-block" in core). While
    annoying, this is IMO Firefox' fault, not ours. Especially because
    Firefox is happy to accept the other CSS3 in Garland (e.g. "opacity:
    0.5"). It is also only visible if you have some sort of development
    tools active.

    It seems most of the reactions against this are knee-jerk: "Drupal
    doesn't care about valid CSS" or "What's this scary error message?". IMO
    this is the price to pay for progress. Drupal is still sticking to a
    standard, and one which has real-world implementations.

    Objections? :P

    Steven Wittens
  • Steven Wittens at Jan 5, 2007 at 2:09 am

    In any case CORE functionality or usability should not rely on on
    CSS3.
    Well, core uses CSS3 now, but it does not rely on it. For example, in
    Garland, disabled menu items are shown transparent in the admin, but
    there is still the text "(disabled)" (or similar) as well. The
    transparency is just a nice extra indicator.

    Obviously we should make sure all CSS3 gracefully degrades.

    Steven Wittens
  • Tim Altman at Jan 5, 2007 at 3:01 am

    On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 21:30:22 -0500, Steven Wittens wrote:

    Drupal 5.0 will be the first Drupal that includes some CSS3. Several
    people have brought up concerns or 'bug reports' about this.

    Facts:

    - CSS3 is a huge standard which is still in draft form, although many
    parts of it haven't been changed in the past couple of years. It
    consists of several modules, which are usually independent from each
    other.
    Indeed. In fact, many of the modules are already Candidate
    Recommendations[1], meaning browser vendors are encouraged to implement
    them.
    With that in mind, I'd like to set an official policy on CSS3 in Drupal,
    namely that we allow it. By definition, it should not cause any problems
    in older browsers, and it can be used to provide extra UI cues (opacity
    for disabled items) or nice style enhancements (e.g. text-shadow in
    Garland, for Safari).
    I'd like some additional guidelines:

    1) Any CSS styling used (CSS3 or otherwise) should degrade gracefully, as
    you suggested later in this thread
    2) Only styles supported by 2/4 of the top rendering engines (Gecko
    (Mozilla), WebKit (Safari), Trident (IE), and Presto (Opera)) should be
    used
    2b) No browser-specific ("-vendor" prefix styling should be used)
    3) Only styles in a spec. that is a CR, PR, or REC or has previously
    reached any of those states should be used (for instance, CSS 2.1 is
    currently in Last Call, but has previously been a CR). This would include
    CSS3 Colors, Selectors, Media Queries, etc. See
    http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work for a list of current module
    states

    [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr#RecsCR

    --
    Tim Altman

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