Hi all,

I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
are falling further and further behind.

I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
focus on desktop and leave it be.

I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
(under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
too, and very much needed.

However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
have them this side of 2012.

So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
others who have the scope to build something great.

Thanks

Shane

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  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 17, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    Shane,

    "At the recent London mobile meet we had a good discussion about where
    Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one offered to actually write code
    for dojox.mobile."

    I don't know if that's entirely true, though I know the pace has been
    slow since then. I've been working on our strategy and plan document but
    I've slipped behind. I do plan to have that ready sometime next week though.

    That said, we do need help, and as we discussed, getting us on a good
    plan of attack so we can work together and get stuff done coherently
    will go a long way towards this.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 8:43 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Alex Russell at Oct 17, 2010 at 1:56 am
    Speaking of mobile, time is short. Please go play with:

    http://jquerymobile.com/demos/1.0a1/

    The docs are good, the themes are nice, the markup is simple, and degrades well. What can we do better?
    On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Shane,

    "At the recent London mobile meet we had a good discussion about where
    Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one offered to actually write code
    for dojox.mobile."

    I don't know if that's entirely true, though I know the pace has been
    slow since then. I've been working on our strategy and plan document but
    I've slipped behind. I do plan to have that ready sometime next week though.

    That said, we do need help, and as we discussed, getting us on a good
    plan of attack so we can work together and get stuff done coherently
    will go a long way towards this.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 8:43 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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    =gj/k
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    --
    Alex Russell
    slightlyoff at google.com
    slightlyoff at chromium.org
    alex at dojotoolkit.org BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723
  • Shane O'Sullivan at Oct 17, 2010 at 3:43 am
    We can do better. The main issue is the number of 'we' really. Wanna
    jump in? All contribs insanely welcome

    S
    On 16 October 2010 22:56, Alex Russell wrote:
    Speaking of mobile, time is short. Please go play with:

    ?http://jquerymobile.com/demos/1.0a1/

    The docs are good, the themes are nice, the markup is simple, and degrades well. What can we do better?
    On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Shane,

    "At the recent London mobile meet we had a good discussion about where
    Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one offered to actually write code
    for dojox.mobile."

    I don't know if that's entirely true, though I know the pace has been
    slow since then. I've been working on our strategy and plan document but
    I've slipped behind. I do plan to have that ready sometime next week though.

    That said, we do need help, and as we discussed, getting us on a good
    plan of attack so we can work together and get stuff done coherently
    will go a long way towards this.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 8:43 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. ?However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. ?The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. ?We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. ?At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? ?Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. ?I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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    =gj/k
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    --
    Alex Russell
    slightlyoff at google.com
    slightlyoff at chromium.org
    alex at dojotoolkit.org BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 17, 2010 at 4:19 am
    Just went with my Android. Frankly I didn't know what to expect, but in
    general I was not impressed. I couldn't make any gestures to work (not
    supposed to work yet?), besides built-in page scrolling, only "onclick"
    worked. My finger is bigger than elements I was supposed to click. Very
    slow in general (could be my connection), page flipping is slow.
    Apparently it consumes a lot of CPU --- I could see how my battery meter
    counted percents down. And I killed it after several minutes --- I have
    no idea how I did it, but it stopped event processing.

    Obviously, it is an alpha, most probably Android is not a priority, and
    my device is not a top of the line. So don't judge them too harsh.
    Alternatively we can blame the platform manufacturers (HTC and Google).

    It would be interesting to see what we have now. Is it possible to
    assemble a small demo like that?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    PS: Just today I ran my small web app on the same device. The app is not
    optimized for mobile, just a regular desktop browser app and uses Dojo
    1.5 from Google CDN, Claro theme, a progress bar widget, and charting
    (yes, with all available plots loaded by default :-( ). And it was more
    alive than what I saw just now.

    On 10/17/2010 12:56 AM, Alex Russell wrote:
    Speaking of mobile, time is short. Please go play with:

    http://jquerymobile.com/demos/1.0a1/

    The docs are good, the themes are nice, the markup is simple, and degrades well. What can we do better?

    On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    Shane,

    "At the recent London mobile meet we had a good discussion about where
    Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one offered to actually write code
    for dojox.mobile."

    I don't know if that's entirely true, though I know the pace has been
    slow since then. I've been working on our strategy and plan document but
    I've slipped behind. I do plan to have that ready sometime next week though.

    That said, we do need help, and as we discussed, getting us on a good
    plan of attack so we can work together and get stuff done coherently
    will go a long way towards this.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 8:43 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    --
    Alex Russell
    slightlyoff at google.com
    slightlyoff at chromium.org
    alex at dojotoolkit.org BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723
  • Nicola Rizzo at Oct 17, 2010 at 8:31 am
    I just developed - for a project I'm working on - a small script to
    have two fingers gestures like rotation, two fingers tap and zoom on
    Firefox 4.
    Mobile safari on iOs offers these gestures ootb.
    I still don't have an android device, but I think the conversion
    should be simple, replacing MozTouchDown, MozTouchMove and MozTouchUp
    with the android ones.
    In the meantime my new employer should sign a CCLA, but there are no problems.
    Best Regards,
    Nicola
    On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Just went with my Android. Frankly I didn't know what to expect, but in
    general I was not impressed. I couldn't make any gestures to work (not
    supposed to work yet?), besides built-in page scrolling, only "onclick"
    worked. My finger is bigger than elements I was supposed to click. Very
    slow in general (could be my connection), page flipping is slow.
    Apparently it consumes a lot of CPU --- I could see how my battery meter
    counted percents down. And I killed it after several minutes --- I have
    no idea how I did it, but it stopped event processing.

    Obviously, it is an alpha, most probably Android is not a priority, and
    my device is not a top of the line. So don't judge them too harsh.
    Alternatively we can blame the platform manufacturers (HTC and Google).

    It would be interesting to see what we have now. Is it possible to
    assemble a small demo like that?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    PS: Just today I ran my small web app on the same device. The app is not
    optimized for mobile, just a regular desktop browser app and uses Dojo
    1.5 from Google CDN, Claro theme, a progress bar widget, and charting
    (yes, with all available plots loaded by default :-( ). And it was more
    alive than what I saw just now.

    On 10/17/2010 12:56 AM, Alex Russell wrote:
    Speaking of mobile, time is short. Please go play with:

    ? http://jquerymobile.com/demos/1.0a1/

    The docs are good, the themes are nice, the markup is simple, and degrades well. What can we do better?

    On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    Shane,

    "At the recent London mobile meet we had a good discussion about where
    Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one offered to actually write code
    for dojox.mobile."

    I don't know if that's entirely true, though I know the pace has been
    slow since then. I've been working on our strategy and plan document but
    I've slipped behind. I do plan to have that ready sometime next week though.

    That said, we do need help, and as we discussed, getting us on a good
    plan of attack so we can work together and get stuff done coherently
    will go a long way towards this.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 8:43 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. ?However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. ?The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. ?We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. ?At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? ?Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. ?I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    --
    Alex Russell
    slightlyoff at google.com
    slightlyoff at chromium.org
    alex at dojotoolkit.org BE03 E88D EABB 2116 CC49 8259 CF78 E242 59C3 9723
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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    =1wh7
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Mark Hays at Aug 17, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing
    for a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area
    if we ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    -------------- next part --------------
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  • Shane O'Sullivan at Aug 17, 2010 at 12:18 pm
    Mark,

    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.

    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front

    Shane

    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 17, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    The other major thing is the way we handle events. Desktop mouse events
    vs. mobile touch and gesture events.

    Coming up with a sane way to decouple which events are used in each
    environment will help a lot to making things like Dijit work.

    We're also determining what we can do for remote testing of devices,
    whether it be through a service like http://www.perfectomobile.com/ or
    something we run ourselves like jQuery is doing with BrowserSwarm.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 9:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Mark,

    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.

    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front

    Shane

    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Eugene Lazutkin at Aug 17, 2010 at 3:50 pm
    Let me sum it up (and please correct me if I am wrong):

    1) Targeting WebKit.
    2) Reduce JS size (#1 is a part of this strategy).
    3) Widgets should be reworked for mobile space.
    4) Different events available (e.g., touch, no mouse).

    Is that it?

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 8/17/10 11:35 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    The other major thing is the way we handle events. Desktop mouse events
    vs. mobile touch and gesture events.

    Coming up with a sane way to decouple which events are used in each
    environment will help a lot to making things like Dijit work.

    We're also determining what we can do for remote testing of devices,
    whether it be through a service like http://www.perfectomobile.com/ or
    something we run ourselves like jQuery is doing with BrowserSwarm.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 9:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Mark,
    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.
    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front
    Shane
    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Jared Jurkiewicz at Aug 17, 2010 at 3:53 pm
    I would go as far as to say the set of widgets for the mobile space
    would be completely different from dijit widgets (which have to target
    the general browsers).

    -- Jared
    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Let me sum it up (and please correct me if I am wrong):

    1) Targeting WebKit.
    2) Reduce JS size (#1 is a part of this strategy).
    3) Widgets should be reworked for mobile space.
    4) Different events available (e.g., touch, no mouse).

    Is that it?

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 8/17/10 11:35 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    The other major thing is the way we handle events. Desktop mouse events
    vs. mobile touch and gesture events.

    Coming up with a sane way to decouple which events are used in each
    environment will help a lot to making things like Dijit work.

    We're also determining what we can do for remote testing of devices,
    whether it be through a service like http://www.perfectomobile.com/ or
    something we run ourselves like jQuery is doing with BrowserSwarm.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 9:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Mark,
    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. ?You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. ?This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. ?After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. ?Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.
    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. ?Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. ?The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front
    Shane
    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkxq5/EACgkQY214tZwSfCvj8wCfW1EfsRfj7ZeHTU6wkr9wELXn
    hFAAn2ZjcLABm4z3AV+ZjxBuN1VIByCK
    =tjp0
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Shane O'Sullivan at Aug 17, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    Agreed, we need a whole new set of widgets for mobile.

    Also #5 is that we need a easy to use framework that uses templates,
    dynamic async loading of resources and simple message passing between
    views.

    Shane
    On 17 August 2010 20:53, Jared Jurkiewicz wrote:
    I would go as far as to say the set of widgets for the mobile space
    would be completely different from dijit widgets (which have to target
    the general browsers).

    -- Jared
    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Let me sum it up (and please correct me if I am wrong):

    1) Targeting WebKit.
    2) Reduce JS size (#1 is a part of this strategy).
    3) Widgets should be reworked for mobile space.
    4) Different events available (e.g., touch, no mouse).

    Is that it?

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 8/17/10 11:35 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    The other major thing is the way we handle events. Desktop mouse events
    vs. mobile touch and gesture events.

    Coming up with a sane way to decouple which events are used in each
    environment will help a lot to making things like Dijit work.

    We're also determining what we can do for remote testing of devices,
    whether it be through a service like http://www.perfectomobile.com/ or
    something we run ourselves like jQuery is doing with BrowserSwarm.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 9:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Mark,
    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. ?You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. ?This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. ?After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. ?Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.
    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. ?Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. ?The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front
    Shane
    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkxq5/EACgkQY214tZwSfCvj8wCfW1EfsRfj7ZeHTU6wkr9wELXn
    hFAAn2ZjcLABm4z3AV+ZjxBuN1VIByCK
    =tjp0
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 17, 2010 at 4:13 pm
    Yes and no. For example, the iPad... a Dojo Grid should still be usable.
    Or a slider widget from Dijit, it should still work, but it doesn't
    because the events are different.

    So there's basically a few strategies here that will eventually converge:

    1. Make what we have not break
    2. Create mobile optimized alternatives
    3. Make the toolkit more modular and easier to reduce size and optimize
    performance

    I have a lengthier list that has been floating around on an email thread
    to the project leads.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 1:10 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Agreed, we need a whole new set of widgets for mobile.

    Also #5 is that we need a easy to use framework that uses templates,
    dynamic async loading of resources and simple message passing between
    views.

    Shane
    On 17 August 2010 20:53, Jared Jurkiewicz wrote:
    I would go as far as to say the set of widgets for the mobile space
    would be completely different from dijit widgets (which have to target
    the general browsers).

    -- Jared

    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Let me sum it up (and please correct me if I am wrong):

    1) Targeting WebKit.
    2) Reduce JS size (#1 is a part of this strategy).
    3) Widgets should be reworked for mobile space.
    4) Different events available (e.g., touch, no mouse).

    Is that it?

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 8/17/10 11:35 AM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    The other major thing is the way we handle events. Desktop mouse events
    vs. mobile touch and gesture events.

    Coming up with a sane way to decouple which events are used in each
    environment will help a lot to making things like Dijit work.

    We're also determining what we can do for remote testing of devices,
    whether it be through a service like http://www.perfectomobile.com/ or
    something we run ourselves like jQuery is doing with BrowserSwarm.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 9:18 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Mark,
    Right now we're targeting WebKit, so you can do most of your
    development on the latest Safari builds. You can also download the
    development environments for iPhone (if you're on a Mac only!),
    Android (every platform) and webOS (every platform) for free. This
    will get you 80% of the way there with regards to testing. After
    that, you really do need a phone for testing. Many people have a
    smartphone already, but if you don't you're at a disadvantage, as they
    all have their quirks.
    Dojo's widgets are currently optimized for desktop, and desktop
    widgets tend to not scale well to small form factors. Phones are also
    more limited with bandwidth and processing power, so we need to cut
    Dojo down to just what is required for a phone. The Uxebu guys are
    pushing ahead well on that front
    Shane
    2010/8/17 Mark Hays <haysmark at us.ibm.com>:
    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.
    Inquiring minds want to know, is there some secret to developing+testing for
    a mobile environment? I don't think anything will happen in this area if we
    ask each developer to pay a $200 fee/device just to develop.

    On the flip side, is there anything preventing mobile devices from running
    Dojo code as-is?
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Sam foster at Aug 17, 2010 at 7:14 pm
    (warning: thread hijack)
    The easy-to-use app framework is in no way limited to mobile. I can
    see how the smaller mobile screen caps the number of moving parts in
    play at any one time, but simple should scale up and down at that
    level to cover apps on the various flavours of mobile as well as
    desktop browsers, AIR/appcelerator and so on.

    Also, following the recent large-apps-with-jquery posts and
    discussion*, there will be a widely held assumption in the jquery and
    wider js community that dojo has just this solution already. We have a
    lot of the solution's parts, and in some cases its pretty trivial to
    write them up together to make a real app. But we don't offer any kind
    of basic framework to connect up services and persistence, business
    logic, UI state management and flow. We have smd, dojo.data, dijit &
    dojox.form.Manager and lot of other ingredients, but little else to
    point to.

    Something like JavascriptMVC is attractive just because it implements
    familiar patterns and takes so many decisions out of your hands. There
    are countless others out there that I've not tried (are any of them
    any good?).

    * see:
    http://blog.rebeccamurphey.com/on-jquery-large-applications
    http://blog.rebeccamurphey.com/on-rolling-your-own
    http://alexsexton.com/?p6

    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Shane O'Sullivan
    wrote:
    Agreed, we need a whole new set of widgets for mobile.

    Also #5 is that we need a easy to use framework that uses templates,
    dynamic async loading of resources and simple message passing between
    views.
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 17, 2010 at 7:47 pm
    I completely agree on the need for both simplicity and the larger need
    of making it simpler and more coherent for building apps.

    Many people have proposed mvc frameworks for Dojo over the years,
    including Rawld Gill (mentioned at the 2009 DDD), Patrick Dooley
    (ITKunst/KunstWerk) and John Hahn (cujojs). Dustin Machi and Kris Zyp
    have done some work towards this as well, though most of Kris' work
    lately has been focused on Persevere and providing a solid SSJS back-end
    to support a solid approach of developing apps.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 8/17/10 4:14 PM (GMT-07:00) sam foster said the following:
    (warning: thread hijack)
    The easy-to-use app framework is in no way limited to mobile. I can
    see how the smaller mobile screen caps the number of moving parts in
    play at any one time, but simple should scale up and down at that
    level to cover apps on the various flavours of mobile as well as
    desktop browsers, AIR/appcelerator and so on.

    Also, following the recent large-apps-with-jquery posts and
    discussion*, there will be a widely held assumption in the jquery and
    wider js community that dojo has just this solution already. We have a
    lot of the solution's parts, and in some cases its pretty trivial to
    write them up together to make a real app. But we don't offer any kind
    of basic framework to connect up services and persistence, business
    logic, UI state management and flow. We have smd, dojo.data, dijit &
    dojox.form.Manager and lot of other ingredients, but little else to
    point to.

    Something like JavascriptMVC is attractive just because it implements
    familiar patterns and takes so many decisions out of your hands. There
    are countless others out there that I've not tried (are any of them
    any good?).

    * see:
    http://blog.rebeccamurphey.com/on-jquery-large-applications
    http://blog.rebeccamurphey.com/on-rolling-your-own
    http://alexsexton.com/?p6

    On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Shane O'Sullivan
    wrote:
    Agreed, we need a whole new set of widgets for mobile.

    Also #5 is that we need a easy to use framework that uses templates,
    dynamic async loading of resources and simple message passing between
    views.
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Bill Keese at Aug 18, 2010 at 1:02 am
    I'd love to raise my hand but it doesn't seem feasible currently for
    me to help. I am aiming for dijit 2.0 to be vastly slimmed down so
    that mobile widgets can inherit at least from _Widget. Although I
    wouldn't be offended if they didn't, it is a vastly different platform.

    What about wink?
    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Evan Huang at Oct 5, 2010 at 9:54 am
    Hi Shane,

    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently got a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):

    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If possible I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting

    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch up and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)

    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to figure out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)

    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.

    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch & gesture event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for Charting?)

    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the both
    cases.

    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before hand.

    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though most of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we can get
    some inspiration anyway.

    http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.keepedge.com/
    http://code.google.com/p/core-plot/
    http://code.google.com/p/s7graphview/
    http://www.componentone.com/SuperProducts/StudioMobile/
    http://www.artfulbits.com/Android/aiCharts.aspx
    http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/mobilechart.asp
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html

    Regards!
    - Evan
























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -------------- next part --------------
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  • Adam L. Peller at Oct 5, 2010 at 10:11 am
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently got a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If possible I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch up and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the?in-progress?new Grid work to figure out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not?clear?yet but I hope we could?reuse most corresponding code
    in desktop version for?#1 and #2. Once the?interesting?touch & gesture event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately?encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage?scenario?for dojox.mobile:
    ?? ?1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    ?? ?2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the?investment before hand.
    At last,?following below are some existing mobile chartings, though most of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we can get
    some?inspiration anyway.
    http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.keepedge.com/
    http://code.google.com/p/core-plot/
    http://code.google.com/p/s7graphview/
    http://www.componentone.com/SuperProducts/StudioMobile/
    http://www.artfulbits.com/Android/aiCharts.aspx
    http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/mobilechart.asp
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. ?However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. ?The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. ?We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. ?At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? ?Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. ?I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Tom Trenka at Oct 5, 2010 at 11:47 am
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.

    -- Tom
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller wrote:

    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently got a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If possible I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch up and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to figure out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch & gesture event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though most of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we can get
    some inspiration anyway.
    http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.keepedge.com/
    http://code.google.com/p/core-plot/
    http://code.google.com/p/s7graphview/
    http://www.componentone.com/SuperProducts/StudioMobile/
    http://www.artfulbits.com/Android/aiCharts.aspx
    http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/mobilechart.asp
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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  • Shane O'Sullivan at Oct 5, 2010 at 11:52 am
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller wrote:

    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? ?I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. ?wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? ?Code size here would be a major factor. ?Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. ?Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the?in-progress?new Grid work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not?clear?yet but I hope we could?reuse most corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for?#1 and #2. Once the?interesting?touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately?encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage?scenario?for dojox.mobile:
    ?? ?1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    ?? ?2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the?investment before hand.
    At last,?following below are some existing mobile chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we can
    get
    some?inspiration anyway.
    http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.keepedge.com/
    http://code.google.com/p/core-plot/
    http://code.google.com/p/s7graphview/
    http://www.componentone.com/SuperProducts/StudioMobile/
    http://www.artfulbits.com/Android/aiCharts.aspx
    http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/mobilechart.asp
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. ?As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. ?However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. ?The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. ?We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. ?At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? ?Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. ?I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Tom Elliott at Oct 5, 2010 at 12:11 pm
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.

    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are going to be
    some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a data point. In the
    examples above clicking on the columns and pie segments shows the tooltips
    and works well, but it's really hard to click on the nodes in the line chart
    (and if I didn't know they were there I'd never have found them).

    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to display the
    tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points? Not sure if that would
    want to become part of the module or an extra component, just a thought.

    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:

    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller wrote:

    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently
    got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If
    possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch
    up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen
    any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the
    both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before
    hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though
    most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we
    can
    and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make
    it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile,
    but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close
    to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    _______________________________________________
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  • Tom Trenka at Oct 5, 2010 at 12:22 pm
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for Charting;
    IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but Eugene would
    remember that better than I would.

    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...

    -- Tom

    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.

    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are going to be
    some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a data point. In the
    examples above clicking on the columns and pie segments shows the tooltips
    and works well, but it's really hard to click on the nodes in the line chart
    (and if I didn't know they were there I'd never have found them).

    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to display the
    tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points? Not sure if that would
    want to become part of the module or an extra component, just a thought.

    Tom

    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:

    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller wrote:

    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct
    me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently
    got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If
    possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch
    up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen
    any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to
    figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already
    got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the
    canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch &
    gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools
    like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the
    both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before
    hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though
    most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we
    can
    and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make
    it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The
    work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is
    great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile,
    but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close
    to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have
    the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors

    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
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  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 5, 2010 at 1:35 pm
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.

    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    - --- again I am completely open to new ideas.

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.

    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...

    -- Tom

    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>

    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.

    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know they were
    there I'd never have found them).

    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or an extra
    component, just a thought.

    Tom


    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan <shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:

    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.org wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I
    think we can
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>

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  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 5, 2010 at 5:09 pm
    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.

    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan <shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.org wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I
    think we can
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


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  • Tom Elliott at Oct 5, 2010 at 6:25 pm
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines 12
    through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal which
    includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?
    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.

    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.htmlshows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan <
    shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com <mailto:
    ttrenka at gmail.com>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for
    mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.org wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data
    stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two
    typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I
    think we can
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a
    good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
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    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
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  • Dylan Schiemann at Oct 5, 2010 at 8:12 pm
    DojoX doesn't not guarantee backwards-compat, and this is a much needed
    change in my opinion. That said, Tom Elliott's suggestion isn't bad either.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 10/5/10 3:25 PM (GMT-07:00) Tom Elliott said the following:
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines
    12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    which includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?

    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    Cheers,
    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan
    <shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com>
    <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com> <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for
    mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.org <mailto:adam at peller.org>
    <mailto:adam at peller.org wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile.
    wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new
    data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major
    factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop.
    Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it
    would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts,
    please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as
    I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after
    v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller
    set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since
    we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by
    reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for
    mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML
    event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have
    two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from
    some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will
    apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both
    require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the
    investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain
    platform, I
    think we can
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space.
    As far
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a
    cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this
    economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just
    admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we
    had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but
    unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be
    wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if
    there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>


    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 6, 2010 at 4:48 pm
    I like the idea, I don't like Chart2DMinimal. At the end of the day,
    when everything is deprecated and removed we will be stuck with
    Chart2DMinimal, which is long, and doesn't make any sense in the context
    without Chart2D.

    I propose "Chart". Do you like it? Do yuo hate it? Let me know --- this
    is exactly the right time for bikeshedding.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 10/5/10 5:25 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines
    12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    which includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?

    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    Cheers,
    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan
    <shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com>
    <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com> <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for
    mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.org <mailto:adam at peller.org>
    <mailto:adam at peller.org wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile.
    wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new
    data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major
    factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop.
    Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it
    would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts,
    please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as
    I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after
    v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller
    set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since
    we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by
    reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for
    mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML
    event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have
    two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from
    some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will
    apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both
    require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the
    investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain
    platform, I
    think we can
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space.
    As far
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a
    cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this
    economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just
    admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we
    had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but
    unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be
    wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if
    there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    _______________________________________________
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>


    _______________________________________________
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
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  • Jared Jurkiewicz at Oct 6, 2010 at 5:11 pm
    Chart seems simple and fine to me.

    -- Jared
    On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    I like the idea, I don't like Chart2DMinimal. At the end of the day,
    when everything is deprecated and removed we will be stuck with
    Chart2DMinimal, which is long, and doesn't make any sense in the context
    without Chart2D.

    I propose "Chart". Do you like it? Do yuo hate it? Let me know --- this
    is exactly the right time for bikeshedding.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 10/5/10 5:25 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines
    12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    which includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?

    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    Cheers,
    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    ? ? the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    ? ? However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    ? ? going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    hovering a
    ? ? data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    ? ? segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    hard to
    ? ? click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    they were
    ? ? there I'd never have found them).
    ? ? A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    ? ? display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    ? ? Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    an extra
    ? ? component, just a thought.
    ? ? Tom
    ? ? On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan
    <shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com>
    ? ? <mailto:shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    ? ? ? ? There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    ? ? ? ? gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    ? ? ? ? 2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com> <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com
    <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>>:
    ? ? ? ? > Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    ? ? ? ? Canvas on mobile
    ? ? ? ? > as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for
    mobile.
    ? ? ? ? > -- Tom
    ? ? ? ? >
    ? ? ? ? > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    ? ? ? ? <adam at peller.org <mailto:adam at peller.org>
    <mailto:adam at peller.org wrote:
    ? ? ? ? >>
    ? ? ? ? >> How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? ?I'd be
    ? ? ? ? thrilled if
    ? ? ? ? >> we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile.
    ?wrt
    ? ? ? ? grid, I
    ? ? ? ? >> wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new
    data stores
    ? ? ? ? >> would be sufficient? ?Code size here would be a major
    factor.
    ? ? ? ? ?Such a
    ? ? ? ? >> light widget could also be popular on the desktop.
    ?Perhaps
    ? ? ? ? this fits
    ? ? ? ? >> into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it
    would be
    ? ? ? ? difficult
    ? ? ? ? >> to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.
    ? ? ? ? >>
    ? ? ? ? >> -Adam
    ? ? ? ? >>
    ? ? ? ? >> 2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>>:
    ? ? ? ? >> > Hi Shane,
    ? ? ? ? >> > Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts,
    please
    ? ? ? ? correct me
    ? ? ? ? >> > if
    ? ? ? ? >> > any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as
    I only
    ? ? ? ? recently got
    ? ? ? ? >> > a
    ? ? ? ? >> > chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    ? ? ? ? >> > So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    ? ? ? ? plan? If possible
    ? ? ? ? >> > I'd
    ? ? ? ? >> > like to spend my partial time on them after
    v.1.6(will need
    ? ? ? ? to get
    ? ? ? ? >> > support
    ? ? ? ? >> > from my boss ;-) )
    ? ? ? ? >> > 1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    ? ? ? ? >> > 2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    ? ? ? ? >> > I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    ? ? ? ? help us catch up
    ? ? ? ? >> > and
    ? ? ? ? >> > may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    ? ? ? ? haven't seen any
    ? ? ? ? >> > similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    ? ? ? ? >> > For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    ? ? ? ? work to figure
    ? ? ? ? >> > out a
    ? ? ? ? >> > lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller
    set of
    ? ? ? ? features)
    ? ? ? ? >> > For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since
    we've
    ? ? ? ? already got
    ? ? ? ? >> > an
    ? ? ? ? >> > excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by
    reusing
    ? ? ? ? the canvas
    ? ? ? ? >> > impl
    ? ? ? ? >> > with possible changes to make it more suitable for
    mobile.
    ? ? ? ? >> > It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    ? ? ? ? corresponding
    ? ? ? ? >> > code
    ? ? ? ? >> > in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    ? ? ? ? the interesting touch & gesture
    ? ? ? ? >> > event
    ? ? ? ? >> > layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML
    event
    ? ? ? ? handling is
    ? ? ? ? >> > already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    ? ? ? ? same for
    ? ? ? ? >> > Charting?)
    ? ? ? ? >> > As discussed previously, in the future we may have
    two typical
    ? ? ? ? >> > usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    ? ? ? ? >> > ? ? 1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    ? ? ? ? >> > ? ? 2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from
    some cool
    ? ? ? ? tools like
    ? ? ? ? >> > PhoneGap),
    ? ? ? ? >> > I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will
    apply well
    ? ? ? ? for the both
    ? ? ? ? >> > cases.
    ? ? ? ? >> > Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both
    require
    ? ? ? ? significant
    ? ? ? ? >> > efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the
    investment
    ? ? ? ? before hand.
    ? ? ? ? >> > At last, following below are some existing mobile
    ? ? ? ? chartings, though most
    ? ? ? ? >> > of
    ? ? ? ? >> > them are still native app specific to a certain
    platform, I
    ? ? ? ? think we can
    ? ? ? ? >> > get
    ? ? ? ? >> > some inspiration anyway.
    ? ? ? ? >> > http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility
    http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html
    ? ? ? ? >> > Regards!
    ? ? ? ? >> > - Evan
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> > On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    ? ? ? ? >> >> Hi all,
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space.
    ?As far
    ? ? ? ? as I can
    ? ? ? ? >> >> see, we are still lacking anything resembling a
    cohesive
    ? ? ? ? strategy, and
    ? ? ? ? >> >> are falling further and further behind.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this
    economy
    ? ? ? ? is forcing
    ? ? ? ? >> >> everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    ? ? ? ? ?However, unless
    ? ? ? ? >> >> enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    ? ? ? ? mobile, and
    ? ? ? ? >> >> have the time to donate, we might as well just
    admit we're
    ? ? ? ? going to
    ? ? ? ? >> >> focus on desktop and leave it be.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    ? ? ? ? want to make it
    ? ? ? ? >> >> (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    ? ? ? ? there. ?The work
    ? ? ? ? >> >> the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    ? ? ? ? platform is great
    ? ? ? ? >> >> too, and very much needed.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    ? ? ? ? widgets. ?We
    ? ? ? ? >> >> don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    ? ? ? ? think we will
    ? ? ? ? >> >> have them this side of 2012.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    ? ? ? ? dojox.mobile, but
    ? ? ? ? >> >> unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    ? ? ? ? anything close to
    ? ? ? ? >> >> world class. ?At the recent London mobile meet we
    had a good
    ? ? ? ? >> >> discussion about where Dojo should go, but
    unfortunately
    ? ? ? ? no one
    ? ? ? ? >> >> offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> Can I get a show of hands? ?Alternatively, a simple "I
    ? ? ? ? don't have the
    ? ? ? ? >> >> time" will do too. ?I need to know if I'll be
    wasting my
    ? ? ? ? time on a
    ? ? ? ? >> >> project that no one else has time to work on, or if
    there
    ? ? ? ? are 4 or 5
    ? ? ? ? >> >> others who have the scope to build something great.
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> Thanks
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    ? ? ? ? >> >> Shane
    ? ? ? ? >> >> _______________________________________________
    ? ? ? ? >> >> dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? ? ? >> >> dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    ? ? ? ? >> >>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    ? ? ? ? >> > _______________________________________________
    ? ? ? ? >> > dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? ? ? >> > dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> >
    ? ? ? ? >> _______________________________________________
    ? ? ? ? >> dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? ? ? >> dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    ? ? ? ? >>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    ? ? ? ? >
    ? ? ? ? >
    ? ? ? ? > _______________________________________________
    ? ? ? ? > dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? ? ? > dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    ? ? ? ? >
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    ? ? ? ? >
    ? ? ? ? >
    ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________
    ? ? ? ? dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? ? ? dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    ? ? _______________________________________________
    ? ? dojo-contributors mailing list
    ? ? dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    ? ? <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>>


    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
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  • Tom Trenka at Oct 6, 2010 at 6:29 pm
    Resending because of a moderation: "Chart" works for me as well.

    Cheers--
    Tom
    On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Tom Trenka wrote:

    Chart works for me as well.

    -- Tom


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  • Evan Huang at Oct 7, 2010 at 4:23 am
    Yeah, having a minimized but still highly extendable Chart Main class would
    be a great idea, also several more possible items for accommodating charting
    on mobile:

    1. Events enhancement for typical Touch & Gesture scenario
    Since we won't avoid facing this increasing reqts, once a HTML based Touch &
    Gesture layer ready in dojox.mobile, we then need to add corresponding
    changes in charting - more specifically add related event support into
    canvas impl in dojox.gfx?

    e.g. in mobile charting, add a new "MobilePlotEvents" by extending
    "dojox.charting.plot2d._PlotEvents" for handling Touch & Gesture events


    2. Lightweight animations with CSS3
    Mobile charting may also need lightweight animations with CSS3

    e.g. add new actions by extending dojox.charting.action2d.* package, if
    possible the mobile actions will try to use CSS3 for animations, otherwise
    just reuse dojo.fx from their parent classes


    In order to reduce code size a bit, mobile charting can be packaged with
    canvas impl in dojox.gfx, that shall make sense since dojox.mobile mainly
    targets HTML5.

    BTW, for big widgets used in mobile like Charting & Grid, I think good
    support for touch & gestures like swipe, pinch, scale, rotate etc. may
    become more important since that will provide user flexible ways to see the
    details as expected.

    Regards!
    - Evan

    On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    I like the idea, I don't like Chart2DMinimal. At the end of the day,
    when everything is deprecated and removed we will be stuck with
    Chart2DMinimal, which is long, and doesn't make any sense in the context
    without Chart2D.

    I propose "Chart". Do you like it? Do yuo hate it? Let me know --- this
    is exactly the right time for bikeshedding.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 10/5/10 5:25 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines
    12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    which includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?

    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    Cheers,
    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
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  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 7, 2010 at 5:14 pm
    Great ideas! The rest is inline.
    On 10/7/10 3:23 AM, Evan Huang wrote:
    Yeah, having a minimized but still highly extendable Chart Main class
    would be a great idea, also several more possible
    items for accommodating charting on mobile:

    1. Events enhancement for typical Touch & Gesture scenario
    Since we won't avoid facing this increasing reqts, once a HTML
    based Touch & Gesture layer ready in dojox.mobile, we then need to add
    corresponding changes in charting - more specifically add related event
    support into canvas impl in dojox.gfx?

    e.g. in mobile charting, add a new "MobilePlotEvents" by extending
    "dojox.charting.plot2d._PlotEvents" for handling Touch & Gesture events
    My understanding is that when talking about events you mean SVG. Canvas
    is an image element essentially, and it cannot process events that
    target individual shapes, unless we implement the event routing ourselves.

    Another problem is that touch events are much more coarse/imprecise than
    mouse events, so probably we need to split them into two categories (at
    least):

    a) Whole chart: zooming/scaling, scrolling/panning, going full-screen to
    see more details.

    b) Detailed view: touching individual components to see more info
    (replaces tooltips).

    Maybe (b) should be available only when in the full-screen mode (a).
    Obviously we need gestures for all those actions.
    2. Lightweight animations with CSS3
    Mobile charting may also need lightweight animations with CSS3

    e.g. add new actions by extending dojox.charting.action2d.* package, if
    possible the mobile actions will try to use CSS3 for animations,
    otherwise just reuse dojo.fx from their parent classes
    Again it does not apply to Canvas for obvious reasons. It applies to
    HTML components we can use to supplement charts, and to some degree to
    SVG. The latter (CSS with SVG) has some vendor implementation problems
    as far as I remember (need to check on that again).
    In order to reduce code size a bit, mobile charting can be packaged with
    canvas impl in dojox.gfx, that shall make sense since dojox.mobile
    mainly targets HTML5.
    It is a possibility. With canvas we don't need the shape-level event
    infrastructure, so it cuts down on code. We still can implement
    chart-level events mentioned in (a).
    BTW, for big widgets used in mobile like Charting & Grid, I think good
    support for touch & gestures like swipe, pinch, scale, rotate etc. may
    become more important since that will provide user flexible ways to see
    the details as expected.
    Absolutely! That's why I think we should have a detailed plan for (a)
    and (b) with mapping them to gestures. Probably we need a gesture
    API/filter, which can translate low-level events into high-level
    commands, which can be consistently reused in Dojo.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    Regards!
    - Evan


    On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    I like the idea, I don't like Chart2DMinimal. At the end of the day,
    when everything is deprecated and removed we will be stuck with
    Chart2DMinimal, which is long, and doesn't make any sense in the context
    without Chart2D.

    I propose "Chart". Do you like it? Do yuo hate it? Let me know --- this
    is exactly the right time for bikeshedding.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    On 10/5/10 5:25 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:
    I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires (lines
    12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    which includes all the existing requires.

    That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also requires
    whichever plot and axis modules they want.

    ?

    On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    <mailto:eugene at lazutkin.com>
    <mailto:eugene at lazutkin.com wrote:

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for
    mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    Cheers,
    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and
    text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net> <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns
    and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the
    points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom



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    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Evan Huang at Oct 8, 2010 at 9:19 am
    Thanks, Eugene,

    Canvas might be a good candidate for experiment, not only due to
    targeting the hot HTML5, but also canvas seems to run faster so more
    suitable for mobile(will need a further check).

    1. Actually I meant shape events in canvas, though there're already
    some implementation(e.g. as below), yes, it's still arguable whether
    worth to impl, since it tends to be inefficient and rigid to some
    extent(never to mention if we'd like to support rich event types)
    - http://www.rgraph.net/examples/rose.html
    - http://www.rgraph.net/examples/hbar.html
    - http://www.rgraph.net/examples/line.html
    - http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/3d/

    So (a) would be more reasonable, but just as you mentioned we still
    need to figure out more suitable UX pattern(paradigm)

    2.Yes, we can just ignore it for canvas

    3.The mapping API(from low to high level gesture) sounds great, in
    that way, it could be shared both for global HTML and canvas-level
    events.

    I'll keep investigating (though with very limited time pre-1.6) and
    get back once any updates.

    Thanks!
    - Evan
    On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Great ideas! The rest is inline.
    On 10/7/10 3:23 AM, Evan Huang wrote:
    Yeah, having a minimized but still highly extendable Chart Main class
    would be a great idea, also several more possible
    items for accommodating charting on mobile:

    1. Events enhancement for typical Touch & Gesture scenario
    Since we won't avoid facing this increasing reqts, once a HTML
    based Touch & Gesture layer ready in dojox.mobile, we then need to add
    corresponding changes in charting - more specifically add related event
    support into canvas impl in dojox.gfx?

    e.g. in mobile charting, add a new "MobilePlotEvents" by extending
    "dojox.charting.plot2d._PlotEvents" for handling Touch & Gesture events
    My understanding is that when talking about events you mean SVG. Canvas
    is an image element essentially, and it cannot process events that
    target individual shapes, unless we implement the event routing ourselves.

    Another problem is that touch events are much more coarse/imprecise than
    mouse events, so probably we need to split them into two categories (at
    least):

    a) Whole chart: zooming/scaling, scrolling/panning, going full-screen to
    see more details.

    b) Detailed view: touching individual components to see more info
    (replaces tooltips).

    Maybe (b) should be available only when in the full-screen mode (a).
    Obviously we need gestures for all those actions.
    2. Lightweight animations with CSS3
    Mobile charting may also need lightweight animations with CSS3

    e.g. add new actions by extending dojox.charting.action2d.* package, ?if
    possible the mobile actions will try to use CSS3 for animations,
    otherwise just reuse dojo.fx from their parent classes
    Again it does not apply to Canvas for obvious reasons. It applies to
    HTML components we can use to supplement charts, and to some degree to
    SVG. The latter (CSS with SVG) has some vendor implementation problems
    as far as I remember (need to check on that again).
    In order to reduce code size a bit, mobile charting can be packaged with
    canvas impl in dojox.gfx, that shall make sense since dojox.mobile
    mainly targets HTML5.
    It is a possibility. With canvas we don't need the shape-level event
    infrastructure, so it cuts down on code. We still can implement
    chart-level events mentioned in (a).
    BTW, for big widgets used in mobile like Charting & Grid, I think good
    support for touch & gestures like swipe, pinch, scale, rotate etc. may
    become more important since that will provide user flexible ways to see
    the details as expected.
    Absolutely! That's why I think we should have a detailed plan for (a)
    and (b) with mapping them to gestures. Probably we need a gesture
    API/filter, which can translate low-level events into high-level
    commands, which can be consistently reused in Dojo.

    Cheers,

    Eugene
    Regards!
    - Evan


    On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    wrote:

    ? ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    ? ? Hash: SHA1

    ? ? I like the idea, I don't like Chart2DMinimal. At the end of the day,
    ? ? when everything is deprecated and removed we will be stuck with
    ? ? Chart2DMinimal, which is long, and doesn't make any sense in the context
    ? ? without Chart2D.

    ? ? I propose "Chart". Do you like it? Do yuo hate it? Let me know --- this
    ? ? is exactly the right time for bikeshedding.

    ? ? Cheers,

    ? ? Eugene

    ? ? On 10/5/10 5:25 PM, Tom Elliott wrote:
    ? ? > I'm sure I'm missing something, but why not rename "Chart2D" to
    ? ? > "Chart2DMinimal" (or something snappier), remove all the requires
    ? ? (lines
    ? ? > 12 through 35), then have a new Chart2D that extends Chart2DMinimal
    ? ? > which includes all the existing requires.
    ? ? >
    ? ? > That way, the API will be consistent for anyone that doesn't care, and
    ? ? > anyone that does just dojo.require("Chart2DMinimal")'s and also
    ? ? requires
    ? ? > whichever plot and axis modules they want.
    ? ? >
    ? ? > ?
    ? ? >
    ? ? > On 5 October 2010 22:09, Eugene Lazutkin <eugene at lazutkin.com
    ? ? <mailto:eugene at lazutkin.com>
    ? ? > <mailto:eugene at lazutkin.com wrote:
    ? ? >
    ? ? > There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    ? ? > mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    ? ? > moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was
    ? ? okay in
    ? ? > the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't
    ? ? scale
    ? ? > going forward.
    ? ? >
    ? ? > We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    ? ? > plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    ? ? > know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while
    ? ? trivial,
    ? ? > is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good
    ? ? plan is
    ? ? > needed for this transition.
    ? ? >
    ? ? > Thoughts? Ideas?
    ? ? >
    ? ? > Cheers,
    ? ? >
    ? ? > Eugene Lazutkin
    ? ? > Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    ? ? > http://lazutkin.com/
    ? ? >
    ? ? > On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    ? ? >> Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    ? ? >> what events you want supported and I'll add them.
    ? ? >
    ? ? >> I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    ? ? >> items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for
    ? ? mobile
    ? ? >> --- again I am completely open to new ideas.
    ? ? >
    ? ? >> Cheers,
    ? ? >
    ? ? >> Eugene Lazutkin
    ? ? >> http://lazutkin.com/
    ? ? >
    ? ? >
    ? ? >> On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    ? ? >>> This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    ? ? >>> Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and
    ? ? text but
    ? ? >>> Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    ? ? >>> platform, though...
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> -- Tom
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> 2010/10/5 Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net
    ? ? <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net> <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net
    ? ? <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>
    ? ? > <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>
    ? ? <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net <mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>>>
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>>
    ? ? >
    ? ? http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    ? ? > shows
    ? ? >>> ? ? the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> ? ? However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    ? ? >>> ? ? going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when
    ? ? > hovering a
    ? ? >>> ? ? data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns
    ? ? and pie
    ? ? >>> ? ? segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really
    ? ? > hard to
    ? ? >>> ? ? click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know
    ? ? > they were
    ? ? >>> ? ? there I'd never have found them).
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> ? ? A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    ? ? >>> ? ? display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the
    ? ? points?
    ? ? >>> ? ? Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or
    ? ? > an extra
    ? ? >>> ? ? component, just a thought.
    ? ? >
    ? ? >>> ? ? Tom
  • Bill Keese at Oct 5, 2010 at 9:15 pm
    BTW, dijit faces the same thing, for files like Button.js (which
    includes DropDownButton, ToggleButton, etc.). I opted for backwards
    compatibility although that was just for PR reasons. As you implied it
    would be trivial for app developers to add the extra dojo.require()
    calls, and the code reduction is a real gain.
    On 10/6/10 6:09 AM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    There is one more thing I don't like in charting, and it will affect
    mobile apps. Chart2D.js includes all possible axis objects (2 at the
    moment), and all possible plots (20 at the moment). While it was okay in
    the beginning and greatly reduced confusion of novices, it doesn't scale
    going forward.

    We need to remove these references from Chart2D => user should require
    plots and axes explicitly. While I know that this is the goal, I don't
    know what is the good way to do it, because this change, while trivial,
    is not backward compatible. I don't want to alienate users. Good plan is
    needed for this transition.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 12:35 PM, Eugene Lazutkin wrote:
    Events are more-or-less decoupled from the drawing code. Let me know,
    what events you want supported and I'll add them.

    I know that touch events are inaccurate, and it is hard select small
    items. If there are any UI paradigms that are more suitable for mobile
    --- again I am completely open to new ideas.

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    http://lazutkin.com/

    On 10/05/2010 11:22 AM, Tom Trenka wrote:
    This is true, event handling on mobile is definitely not there for
    Charting; IIRC there also may be some issues with Canvas and text but
    Eugene would remember that better than I would.
    I *could* see a set of custom plotters that are aimed at the mobile
    platform, though...
    -- Tom
    2010/10/5 Tom Elliott<mrtom at cantab.net<mailto:mrtom at cantab.net>>
    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.
    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are
    going to be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a
    data point. In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie
    segments shows the tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to
    click on the nodes in the line chart (and if I didn't know they were
    there I'd never have found them).
    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to
    display the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points?
    Not sure if that would want to become part of the module or an extra
    component, just a thought.
    Tom
    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan<shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.
    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka<ttrenka at gmail.com<mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or
    Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller
    <adam at peller.orgwrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be
    thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt
    grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor.
    Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps
    this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be
    difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang<evanhuangwei at gmail.com
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please
    correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile
    plan? If possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need
    to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will
    help us catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I
    haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid
    work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of
    features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've
    already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing
    the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most
    corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once
    the interesting touch& gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event
    handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the
    same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool
    tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid& Charting will apply well
    for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid& Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment
    before hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile
    chartings, though most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I
    think we can
    as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive
    strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy
    is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs.
    However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on
    mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're
    going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much
    want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out
    there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each
    platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great
    widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't
    think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into
    dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be
    anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately
    no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I
    don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my
    time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there
    are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
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    <mailto:dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>

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  • David Schwartz at Oct 5, 2010 at 2:19 pm
    FWIW, the charts don't look so hot on my Android 2.2 mobile.

    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1snwLwXhCYLDhiFuA9qhUEsatd1CyWLGenX7IqtpWdqI


    Thanks,
    David



    From: Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net>
    To: "dojo dev." <dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    Date: 10/05/2010 09:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [dojo-contributors] Dojo & Mobile - devs needed
    Sent by: dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org



    http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html
    shows the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.

    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are going to
    be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a data point. In
    the examples above clicking on the columns and pie segments shows the
    tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to click on the nodes in the
    line chart (and if I didn't know they were there I'd never have found
    them).

    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to display
    the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points? Not sure if that
    would want to become part of the module or an extra component, just a
    thought.

    Tom

    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <ttrenka at gmail.com>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller wrote:

    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <evanhuangwei at gmail.com>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct
    me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only recently
    got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If
    possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us catch
    up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen
    any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to
    figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already
    got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the
    canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch &
    gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools
    like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the
    both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require
    significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before
    hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though
    most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think we
    can
    and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make
    it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The
    work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is
    great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile,
    but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close
    to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have
    the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
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    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
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  • Eugene Lazutkin at Oct 5, 2010 at 2:31 pm
    Yeah, gradients don't work. All single-color themes seem to work fine.

    Cheers,

    Eugene Lazutkin
    Dojo Toolkit, Committer
    http://lazutkin.com/
    On 10/05/2010 01:19 PM, David Schwartz wrote:
    FWIW, the charts don't look so hot on my Android 2.2 mobile.

    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1snwLwXhCYLDhiFuA9qhUEsatd1CyWLGenX7IqtpWdqI

    Thanks,
    David



    From: Tom Elliott <mrtom at cantab.net>
    To: "dojo dev." <dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org>
    Date: 10/05/2010 09:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [dojo-contributors] Dojo & Mobile - devs needed
    Sent by: dojo-contributors-bounces at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------



    _http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dojox/charting/tests/test_DataSeries.html_ shows
    the charts fine on my iPhone fwiw.

    However, whilst the charts themselves might work fine there are going to
    be some UX problems with tooltips that show when hovering a data point.
    In the examples above clicking on the columns and pie segments shows the
    tooltips and works well, but it's really hard to click on the nodes in
    the line chart (and if I didn't know they were there I'd never have
    found them).

    A mobile charting module might help here by defining an area to display
    the tooltip text and allowing swiping between the points? Not sure if
    that would want to become part of the module or an extra component, just
    a thought.

    Tom

    On 5 October 2010 16:52, Shane O'Sullivan <_shaneosullivan1 at gmail.com_
    wrote:
    There are some limitations, e.g. some platforms don't support
    gradients, but it should, in general, look fine.

    2010/10/5 Tom Trenka <_ttrenka at gmail.com_ <mailto:ttrenka at gmail.com>>:
    Charting will run just fine on anything supporting SVG or Canvas on mobile
    as is; I don't know that we'd need anything special for mobile.
    -- Tom

    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Adam L. Peller <_adam at peller.org_
    wrote:
    How far is dojox.charting from running on mobile? I'd be thrilled if
    we didn't have to fork the codebases for dojox.mobile. wrt grid, I
    wonder if a simple pagination widget based on the new data stores
    would be sufficient? Code size here would be a major factor. Such a
    light widget could also be popular on the desktop. Perhaps this fits
    into the new grid architecture, but I worry that it would be difficult
    to meet conflicting goals of code size and flexibility.

    -Adam

    2010/10/5 Evan Huang <_evanhuangwei at gmail.com_
    <mailto:evanhuangwei at gmail.com>>:
    Hi Shane,
    Recalling this thread, I just got some new thoughts, please correct me
    if
    any inappropriateness(sorry for getting back late as I only
    recently got
    a
    chance to explore the emerging mobile world):
    So how about adding following two pieces to our mobile plan? If
    possible
    I'd
    like to spend my partial time on them after v.1.6(will need to get
    support
    from my boss ;-) )
    1. dojox.mobile.Gird
    2. dojox.mobile.Charting
    I think both of them are very important to mobile, will help us
    catch up
    and
    may also help make dojox.mobile outstanding(at least I haven't seen any
    similar activities yet in JQTouch, ShenCha...)
    For #1, we may try to leverage the in-progress new Grid work to figure
    out a
    lightweight mobile version(still = core + a smaller set of features)
    For #2, more discussions are still needed, but since we've already got
    an
    excellent dojox.charting framework, we may start by reusing the canvas
    impl
    with possible changes to make it more suitable for mobile.
    It's still not clear yet but I hope we could reuse most corresponding
    code
    in desktop version for #1 and #2. Once the interesting touch & gesture
    event
    layer were ready, we can then plug it in since HTML event handling is
    already separately encapsulated in new Grid(FIXME - the same for
    Charting?)
    As discussed previously, in the future we may have two typical
    usage scenario for dojox.mobile:
    1. Within html page in mobile browsers
    2. Run as native app in mobile(with help from some cool tools like
    PhoneGap),
    I'm optimistic that mobile Grid & Charting will apply well for the both
    cases.
    Most importantly, since mobile Grid & Charting both require significant
    efforts, we really need to ensure they worth the investment before
    hand.
    At last, following below are some existing mobile chartings, though
    most
    of
    them are still native app specific to a certain platform, I think
    we can
    get
    some inspiration anyway.
    _http://designingwebinterfaces.com/mobile_chart_options_
    _http://www.zingchart.com/flash-and-html5-canvas/#compatibility_
    _http://www.keepedge.com/_
    _http://code.google.com/p/core-plot/_
    _http://code.google.com/p/s7graphview/_
    _http://www.componentone.com/SuperProducts/StudioMobile/_
    _http://www.artfulbits.com/Android/aiCharts.aspx_
    _http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/mobilechart.asp_
    _http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/mobile-charts.html_
    Regards!
    - Evan























    On 8/18/10 12:43 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm very worried about Dojo and the mobile space. As far as I can
    see, we are still lacking anything resembling a cohesive strategy, and
    are falling further and further behind.

    I appreciate that everyone is busy, and that this economy is forcing
    everyone, me included, to focus on their day jobs. However, unless
    enough people are interested in making Dojo a killer on mobile, and
    have the time to donate, we might as well just admit we're going to
    focus on desktop and leave it be.

    I think dojox.mobile is a great start, and I very much want to make it
    (under whatever moniker) the best mobile toolkit out there. The work
    the Uxebu guys are doing to customize Dojo for each platform is great
    too, and very much needed.

    However, what users want is a solid framework and great widgets. We
    don't have them yet, and at the current rate, I don't think we will
    have them this side of 2012.

    So, I'm willing to put a good amount of my time into dojox.mobile, but
    unless others have time to contribute it'll never be anything close to
    world class. At the recent London mobile meet we had a good
    discussion about where Dojo should go, but unfortunately no one
    offered to actually write code for dojox.mobile.

    Can I get a show of hands? Alternatively, a simple "I don't have the
    time" will do too. I need to know if I'll be wasting my time on a
    project that no one else has time to work on, or if there are 4 or 5
    others who have the scope to build something great.

    Thanks

    Shane
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