Hi All,

As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
recently Blackberry. The reaction of the open source community has
been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
- How do I show an alert box?
- How do I create a templated list?
- How do I display a radio button?
- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
be as constrained with JS file size.

dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
provide. This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
announce such a large-scale project. As I said before, they seem to
be concentrating on the smaller issues.

Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. I'm
willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
alone. I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. I see it as a
complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. It
has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
it in what I've done so far.

To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
different views, with associated code and html for each.
- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
stack, passing it data in the process. All it needs is the name of
the view, and the system does the rest.
- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
stack.
- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
adding additionaly widgets such as
- An application-wide menu. Where the host OS supports this, it will
be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
- A JavaScript based scroller. I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
this at some point ;-)
- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
- An image gallery
and more.

So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

Thanks

Shane

Search Discussions

  • Dylan Schiemann at May 15, 2010 at 11:00 pm
    Shane,

    I agree. I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    - How do I show an alert box?
    - How do I create a templated list?
    - How do I display a radio button?
    - How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    - How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    - A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    - The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    - The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    - An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    - A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    - A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    - An application-wide menu. Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    - A JavaScript based scroller. I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    - A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    - An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Shane O'Sullivan at May 16, 2010 at 8:30 am
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses CSS3
    animations. I agree it would be cool to factor these out into another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane
    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Shane,

    I agree. ?I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. ?The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    ?- How do I show an alert box?
    ?- How do I create a templated list?
    ?- How do I display a radio button?
    ?- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    ?- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. ?This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. ?As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. ?I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. ?I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. ?I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. ?It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    ?- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    ?- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. ?All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    ?- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    ?- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    ?- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    ?- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    ?- An application-wide menu. ?Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    ?- A JavaScript based scroller. ?I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    ?- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    ?- An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvvX8kACgkQ1E2HcBNypM7wEQCfSvv1j3qQbRUuMPlU+bNCUFYi
    4QQAoIEQjznk2CnXkrjAHsqY35gMG07B
    =xu5m
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Dylan Schiemann at May 16, 2010 at 7:36 pm
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.

    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses CSS3
    animations. I agree it would be cool to factor these out into another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    - How do I show an alert box?
    - How do I create a templated list?
    - How do I display a radio button?
    - How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    - How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    - A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    - The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    - The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    - An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    - A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    - A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    - An application-wide menu. Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    - A JavaScript based scroller. I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    - A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    - An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Alex Russell at May 16, 2010 at 8:40 pm
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. ?However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. ?We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses CSS3
    animations. ?I agree it would be cool to factor these out into another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? ?dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. ?It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. ?However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. ?We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. ?I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. ?The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    ?- How do I show an alert box?
    ?- How do I create a templated list?
    ?- How do I display a radio button?
    ?- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    ?- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. ?This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. ?As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. ?I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. ?I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. ?I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. ?It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    ?- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    ?- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. ?All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    ?- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    ?- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    ?- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    ?- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    ?- An application-wide menu. ?Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    ?- A JavaScript based scroller. ?I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    ?- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    ?- An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvwgW4ACgkQ1E2HcBNypM4e/QCeIDvhRhxY6pq8ZZrMthawIbEA
    04wAoIQwwpJk29nUbER2iXNm7V2SMNmQ
    =HzWx
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Dylan Schiemann at May 17, 2010 at 9:32 am
    My point is that I don't think it is at all appropriate to say that the
    goal is to be the jQuery of anything, or to declare that jQuery is the
    winner of anything. I'm tired of the attempts at chasing something
    else, rather than defining what we are and executing on that vision.

    Frankly it's not about winning or being the most popular, it's about
    creating the best thing out there for us and our users.

    As stated already, the goal should be to provide what we believe to be
    the best possible tools for mobile development using open web
    technologies. Or something like that. Defining what that is, and
    executing on that vision, is what I consider "winning". It's also the
    type of vision that led Apple to create the best OS... not the most
    popular, but the best combination of user experience and functionality.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:40 PM (GMT-07:00) Alex Russell said the following:
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses CSS3
    animations. I agree it would be cool to factor these out into another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    - How do I show an alert box?
    - How do I create a templated list?
    - How do I display a radio button?
    - How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    - How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    - A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    - The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    - The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    - An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    - A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    - A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    - An application-wide menu. Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    - A JavaScript based scroller. I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    - A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    - An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Shane O'Sullivan at May 17, 2010 at 9:37 am
    OK, perhaps using the term "jQuery" was not the best choice.

    To clarify, I think that implementing my proposal, or something
    similar, could very well lead to Dojo being the outright leader in
    this space, and the very first toolkit that developers ahead of all
    others.

    Back to the business at hand - any takers for working with me on this?
    The more the merrier really.

    Shane
    On 17 May 2010 14:32, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    My point is that I don't think it is at all appropriate to say that the
    goal is to be the jQuery of anything, or to declare that jQuery is the
    winner of anything. ?I'm tired of the attempts at chasing something
    else, rather than defining what we are and executing on that vision.

    Frankly it's not about winning or being the most popular, it's about
    creating the best thing out there for us and our users.

    As stated already, the goal should be to provide what we believe to be
    the best possible tools for mobile development using open web
    technologies. ?Or something like that. ?Defining what that is, and
    executing on that vision, is what I consider "winning". ?It's also the
    type of vision that led Apple to create the best OS... not the most
    popular, but the best combination of user experience and functionality.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:40 PM (GMT-07:00) Alex Russell said the following:
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. ?However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. ?We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses CSS3
    animations. ?I agree it would be cool to factor these out into another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? ?dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. ?It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. ?However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. ?We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. ?I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS, and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach, but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. ?The reaction of the open source community has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    ?- How do I show an alert box?
    ?- How do I create a templated list?
    ?- How do I display a radio button?
    ?- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    ?- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. ?This should give us an advantage over all our contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. ?As I said before, they seem to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space. ?I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. ?I've made a significant start, and have attached the latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141 for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. ?I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS. ?It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    ?- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    ?- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto the
    stack, passing it data in the process. ?All it needs is the name of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    ?- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto the
    stack.
    ?- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a label.
    ?- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    ?- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    ?- An application-wide menu. ?Where the host OS supports this, it will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    ?- A JavaScript based scroller. ?I'm hoping Uxebu can help out with
    this at some point ;-)
    ?- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move between images
    ?- An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvxRYEACgkQ1E2HcBNypM5/aQCfZwFIMniV6r2AlhbxJyZFkv2w
    4/oAn3uuxyC7dxXMphv5ACHip7ubIfZ0
    =Lw/C
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Bob Remeika at May 18, 2010 at 12:14 am
    Hey Shane,

    I've been working on something like this already, but my focus has been more
    towards porting the dojox.mobile api over to something that is phonegap
    friendly. I'm not really sure if this is the right approach since trying to
    manage changes between the two projects is pretty impossible. Reasons
    mostly include:

    1. I'm not a committer on phonegap nor am I committer on Dojo. So if I need
    to change something, I have to get two different projects to make the
    changes (this is not really as much of a problem with dojo, but I still wind
    up with forked versions of both libraries)
    2. Timelines for accepting patches are asynchronous
    3. Versioning... forget it. Release dates are completely incompatible.
    Part of me wishes that dojox projects were on their own timelines. Makes
    me wonder if there would be more contributions that way.

    I've had these issues before when working on the dojox.rails libs and
    drails. (as a side note, now that the rails3 client api seems to be
    solidified, maybe I can commit my driver. I know that ttilley has written
    his own version as well. i would like to merge efforts there). The main
    problem really just has to do with all of the administrative overhead.

    So given the current nightmare thats required when trying to bridge two
    projects together, I've had a lot of false starts on what I'm working on.
    The right idea seems to be to start a project like this from scratch (I
    didn't really like the phonegap client API anyway).

    I am raising my hand.
    On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:37 AM, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:

    OK, perhaps using the term "jQuery" was not the best choice.

    To clarify, I think that implementing my proposal, or something
    similar, could very well lead to Dojo being the outright leader in
    this space, and the very first toolkit that developers ahead of all
    others.

    Back to the business at hand - any takers for working with me on this?
    The more the merrier really.

    Shane
    On 17 May 2010 14:32, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    My point is that I don't think it is at all appropriate to say that the
    goal is to be the jQuery of anything, or to declare that jQuery is the
    winner of anything. I'm tired of the attempts at chasing something
    else, rather than defining what we are and executing on that vision.

    Frankly it's not about winning or being the most popular, it's about
    creating the best thing out there for us and our users.

    As stated already, the goal should be to provide what we believe to be
    the best possible tools for mobile development using open web
    technologies. Or something like that. Defining what that is, and
    executing on that vision, is what I consider "winning". It's also the
    type of vision that led Apple to create the best OS... not the most
    popular, but the best combination of user experience and functionality.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:40 PM (GMT-07:00) Alex Russell said the following:
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too concerned
    with. We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses
    CSS3
    animations. I agree it would be cool to factor these out into
    another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is
    still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS,
    and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling
    data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast
    on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs
    to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it
    all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just
    feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach,
    but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up
    with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. The reaction of the open source community
    has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the
    differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of
    work.
    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to
    comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    - How do I show an alert box?
    - How do I create a templated list?
    - How do I display a radio button?
    - How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    - How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to another
    and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and
    not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely
    hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that
    are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. This should give us an advantage over all our
    contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. As I said before, they seem
    to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space.
    I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. I've made a significant start, and have attached the
    latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. I see it as a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who
    wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is webOS.
    It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration
    from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    - A templated view system that allows you to organise your app
    into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    - The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto
    the
    stack, passing it data in the process. All it needs is the name
    of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    - The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto
    the
    stack.
    - An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a
    label.
    - A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    - A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding
    Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now), and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    - An application-wide menu. Where the host OS supports this, it
    will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    - A JavaScript based scroller. I'm hoping Uxebu can help out
    with
    this at some point ;-)
    - A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move
    between images
    - An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvxRYEACgkQ1E2HcBNypM5/aQCfZwFIMniV6r2AlhbxJyZFkv2w
    4/oAn3uuxyC7dxXMphv5ACHip7ubIfZ0
    =Lw/C
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    --
    Bob Remeika
    http://bobremeika.com
    http://d-rails.org
    http://cometdproject.dojotoolkit.org/
    -------------- next part --------------
    An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
    URL: http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/pipermail/dojo-contributors/attachments/20100517/78b39984/attachment-0001.htm
  • Shane O'Sullivan at May 18, 2010 at 5:23 pm
    Hi Bob,

    Great to have you on board! I should hopefully be checking in the
    code quite soon (as soon as Jared gives me the go ahead, since
    dojox.mobile is his baby) and I'll start a new thread to discuss
    requirements.

    Do you have any cool mobile widgets already developed that we might be
    able to work into the framework? Or would you be more interested in
    doing styling work, getting all the widgets to look good and native on
    all the platforms?

    Any other interested parties?????

    Thanks

    Shane

    2010/5/18 Bob Remeika <bob.remeika at gmail.com>:
    Hey Shane,
    I've been working on something like this already, but my focus has been more
    towards porting the dojox.mobile api over to something that is phonegap
    friendly. ?I'm not really sure if this is the right approach since trying to
    manage changes between the two projects is pretty impossible. ?Reasons
    mostly include:
    1. I'm not a committer on phonegap nor am I committer on Dojo. ?So if I need
    to change something, I have to get two different projects to make the
    changes (this is not really as much of a problem with dojo, but I still wind
    up with forked versions of both libraries)
    2. Timelines for accepting patches are asynchronous
    3. Versioning... forget it. ?Release dates are completely incompatible.
    ?Part of me wishes that dojox projects were on their own timelines. ?Makes
    me wonder if there would be more contributions that way.
    I've had these issues before when working on the dojox.rails libs and
    drails. ?(as a side note, now that the rails3 client api seems to be
    solidified, maybe I can commit my driver. ?I know that ttilley has written
    his own version as well. ?i would like to merge efforts there). ?The main
    problem really just has to do with all of the administrative overhead.
    So given the current nightmare thats required when trying to bridge two
    projects together, I've had a lot of false starts on what I'm working on.
    ?The right idea seems to be to start a project like this from scratch (I
    didn't really like the phonegap client API anyway).
    I am raising my hand.

    On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:37 AM, Shane O'Sullivan
    wrote:
    OK, perhaps using the term "jQuery" was not the best choice.

    To clarify, I think that implementing my proposal, or something
    similar, could very well lead to Dojo being the outright leader in
    this space, and the very first toolkit that developers ahead of all
    others.

    Back to the business at hand - any takers for working with me on this?
    The more the merrier really.

    Shane
    On 17 May 2010 14:32, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    My point is that I don't think it is at all appropriate to say that the
    goal is to be the jQuery of anything, or to declare that jQuery is the
    winner of anything. ?I'm tired of the attempts at chasing something
    else, rather than defining what we are and executing on that vision.

    Frankly it's not about winning or being the most popular, it's about
    creating the best thing out there for us and our users.

    As stated already, the goal should be to provide what we believe to be
    the best possible tools for mobile development using open web
    technologies. ?Or something like that. ?Defining what that is, and
    executing on that vision, is what I consider "winning". ?It's also the
    type of vision that led Apple to create the best OS... not the most
    popular, but the best combination of user experience and functionality.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:40 PM (GMT-07:00) Alex Russell said the following:
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann
    wrote:
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to
    replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. ?However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too
    concerned
    with. ?We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything
    across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses
    CSS3
    animations. ?I agree it would be cool to factor these out into
    another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? ?dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. ?It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate
    what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file
    system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. ?However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is
    still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. ?We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. ?I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS,
    and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some
    overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or
    good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling
    data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast
    on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs
    to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it
    all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just
    feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach,
    but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up
    with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. ?The reaction of the open source community
    has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the
    differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of
    work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to
    comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    ?- How do I show an alert box?
    ?- How do I create a templated list?
    ?- How do I display a radio button?
    ?- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    ?- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to
    another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and
    not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely
    hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities
    to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that
    are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. ?This should give us an advantage over all our
    contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. ?As I said before, they seem
    to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space.
    ?I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. ?I've made a significant start, and have attached the
    latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141
    for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. ?I see it as
    a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who
    wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is
    webOS. ?It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration
    from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    ?- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app
    into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    ?- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto
    the
    stack, passing it data in the process. ?All it needs is the name
    of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    ?- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto
    the
    stack.
    ?- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a
    label.
    ?- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    ?- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding
    Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now),
    and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    ?- An application-wide menu. ?Where the host OS supports this, it
    will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    ?- A JavaScript based scroller. ?I'm hoping Uxebu can help out
    with
    this at some point ;-)
    ?- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move
    between images
    ?- An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvxRYEACgkQ1E2HcBNypM5/aQCfZwFIMniV6r2AlhbxJyZFkv2w
    4/oAn3uuxyC7dxXMphv5ACHip7ubIfZ0
    =Lw/C
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    --
    Bob Remeika
    http://bobremeika.com
    http://d-rails.org
    http://cometdproject.dojotoolkit.org/

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
  • Tom Elliott at May 19, 2010 at 5:02 am
    Hi Shane.

    I'd be interested in helping out.

    However, the company I work for has just been taken over and there are
    lots and lots of changes going on at the moment. Realistically I have
    no idea how much free time I'll have over the next few months as my
    job is likely to change quite a bit.

    But if you're building a list of interested parties please put my name
    on it for now and I'll see what I can do.

    Cheers,

    Tom
    On 18 May 2010 22:23, Shane O'Sullivan wrote:
    Hi Bob,

    Great to have you on board! ?I should hopefully be checking in the
    code quite soon (as soon as Jared gives me the go ahead, since
    dojox.mobile is his baby) and I'll start a new thread to discuss
    requirements.

    Do you have any cool mobile widgets already developed that we might be
    able to work into the framework? ?Or would you be more interested in
    doing styling work, getting all the widgets to look good and native on
    all the platforms?

    Any other interested parties?????

    Thanks

    Shane

    2010/5/18 Bob Remeika <bob.remeika at gmail.com>:
    Hey Shane,
    I've been working on something like this already, but my focus has been more
    towards porting the dojox.mobile api over to something that is phonegap
    friendly. ?I'm not really sure if this is the right approach since trying to
    manage changes between the two projects is pretty impossible. ?Reasons
    mostly include:
    1. I'm not a committer on phonegap nor am I committer on Dojo. ?So if I need
    to change something, I have to get two different projects to make the
    changes (this is not really as much of a problem with dojo, but I still wind
    up with forked versions of both libraries)
    2. Timelines for accepting patches are asynchronous
    3. Versioning... forget it. ?Release dates are completely incompatible.
    ?Part of me wishes that dojox projects were on their own timelines. ?Makes
    me wonder if there would be more contributions that way.
    I've had these issues before when working on the dojox.rails libs and
    drails. ?(as a side note, now that the rails3 client api seems to be
    solidified, maybe I can commit my driver. ?I know that ttilley has written
    his own version as well. ?i would like to merge efforts there). ?The main
    problem really just has to do with all of the administrative overhead.
    So given the current nightmare thats required when trying to bridge two
    projects together, I've had a lot of false starts on what I'm working on.
    ?The right idea seems to be to start a project like this from scratch (I
    didn't really like the phonegap client API anyway).
    I am raising my hand.

    On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:37 AM, Shane O'Sullivan
    wrote:
    OK, perhaps using the term "jQuery" was not the best choice.

    To clarify, I think that implementing my proposal, or something
    similar, could very well lead to Dojo being the outright leader in
    this space, and the very first toolkit that developers ahead of all
    others.

    Back to the business at hand - any takers for working with me on this?
    The more the merrier really.

    Shane
    On 17 May 2010 14:32, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    My point is that I don't think it is at all appropriate to say that the
    goal is to be the jQuery of anything, or to declare that jQuery is the
    winner of anything. ?I'm tired of the attempts at chasing something
    else, rather than defining what we are and executing on that vision.

    Frankly it's not about winning or being the most popular, it's about
    creating the best thing out there for us and our users.

    As stated already, the goal should be to provide what we believe to be
    the best possible tools for mobile development using open web
    technologies. ?Or something like that. ?Defining what that is, and
    executing on that vision, is what I consider "winning". ?It's also the
    type of vision that led Apple to create the best OS... not the most
    popular, but the best combination of user experience and functionality.

    Regards,
    - -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:40 PM (GMT-07:00) Alex Russell said the following:
    On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Schiemann
    wrote:
    I do agree, I was sort of stating long-term vision in context of short
    term tactics.

    That said, the goal should not be to be the jQuery of mobile, because
    jQuery will fill that role.
    Wait, what? If the plan isn't to win, why bother?
    The goal should be to provide what we and user believe to be the best
    possible tools for mobile development using open web technologies.

    Also, for things like camera and geo, the goal would not be to
    replicate
    phonegap, but to make it easy to make calls to tools like phonegap.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/16/10 5:30 AM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi Dylan,

    I agree that all these areas are very interesting, and Dojo should
    address them. ?However, I'd like to avoid feature creep, as the
    problem I'm suggesting we fix here is that of HTML5 mobile apps and
    nothing more.

    Whether such a package lives in dojox or dijit, I'm not too
    concerned
    with. ?We can of course start off in Dojox and move everything
    across
    at some point, using the "incubator" approach.

    The stuff in dojox.mobile dojox.mobile.app (my code) already uses
    CSS3
    animations. ?I agree it would be cool to factor these out into
    another
    place, maybe have dojo.fx use it if available? ?dojox.mobile already
    focuses on the small sites, so that's already begun to be covered.

    I'd prefer to avoid overlapping with PhoneGap too much, as I don't
    really see the point. ?It's a hell of a lot of work to replicate
    what
    already exists, so I'd rather stay away from camera, geo, file
    system
    if at all possible.

    All of the other things you mention would require a huge rethink of
    Dojo as a whole, which I think will become more necessary as time
    passes. ?However I think that if we can get the HTML5 apps support
    done, it would give us a huge boost in the mobile world which is
    still
    very much in flux and just waiting for someone to sprint to the
    forefront. ?We could be the jQuery of mobile ;-)

    Shane

    On 16 May 2010 04:00, Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    Shane,

    I agree. ?I do want to build on this for the moment. I'm noticing
    increasing interest in the following areas:

    * small sites (mobile/lite)
    * webkit (or at least ignoring IE 6-8) or at least a similar API for
    desktop and mobile
    * html5 semantics (Dijit should also start to extend this)
    * CSS3 extensions (e.g. simple animations)
    * html5 capabilities (WebSockets, vector graphics, local storage,
    offline, audio/video, etc.)
    * gaps and inconsistencies (displays, form factors, bugs, etc.)
    * UI (themes, widgets (light and more advanced like 3D with nice
    animations), new interactions (multi-touch))
    * native capabilities (camera, geo, file system... both mobile and
    desktop web, as well as things like webOS and potentially ChromeOS,
    and
    native desktop apps (AIR, Titanium, NativeHost, etc.)... some
    overlap
    with xui)
    * alternative environments (facebook apps, car dashboards, embedded
    devices, etc.)
    * testing & deployment (testing tools, PhoneGap, etc.)
    * app development (frameworks a layer up, whether they be mvc or
    good
    patterns/scaffolding for building good apps, handling
    data/templating,
    generating rendered widgets, etc.)
    * out of the box experience... getting people productive really fast
    on
    a higher level

    To give solutions that come reasonably close to satisfying the needs
    to
    users, this requires a fairly substantial rethink in how to put it
    all
    together.

    For example, to me, having this live in dojox.mobile at all just
    feels
    wrong.

    We really can't afford to wait to come up with the perfect approach,
    but
    if we're going to get somewhere with this soon, we need to come up
    with
    a rough plan and setup and get working on it.

    Regards,
    -Dylan

    on 5/15/10 4:18 PM (GMT-07:00) Shane O'Sullivan said the following:
    Hi All,

    As you're all aware, the mobile world is taking off in a big way,
    driven by iPhone and Android, and to a lesser degree webOS and
    recently Blackberry. ?The reaction of the open source community
    has
    been to make small useful utilities to abstract away the
    differences
    between phones, e.g. PhoneGap and jqTouch, both fine pieces of
    work.

    However, there seems to be a huge gap when it comes to
    comprehensive
    HTML5 app frameworks and widget sets. Questions such as
    ?- How do I show an alert box?
    ?- How do I create a templated list?
    ?- How do I display a radio button?
    ?- How do I display a set of choices in a popup?
    ?- How do I arrange many templated views, move from one to
    another and
    pass data back and forth, with minimal coupling?
    are, or will be very, very common to people trying to write HTML5
    apps, especially those that will reside locally on the device and
    not
    be as constrained with JS file size.

    dojox.mobile is a great start, but it is focused on remotely
    hosted
    sites, and therefore has to severely restrict it's capabilities
    to
    what will fit in the iPhone's browser cache.

    I'm proposing that Dojo releases a cross-device mobile framework,
    complete with a widget set of the most commonly used tools that
    are
    both touch-friendly and suit the smaller form factor that mobiles
    provide. ?This should give us an advantage over all our
    contemporaries
    in the OS community, who to the best of my knowledge have yet to
    announce such a large-scale project. ?As I said before, they seem
    to
    be concentrating on the smaller issues.

    Regardless of what other projects do or don't release, I firmly
    believe that Dojo cannot afford to be left behind in this space.
    ?I'm
    willing to lead the effort, but it's too large for me to attempt
    alone. ?I've made a significant start, and have attached the
    latest
    version of the code to http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/11141
    for
    you to try out, along with some sample apps in the tests folder.

    To be clear, this in no way overlaps with PhoneGap. ?I see it as
    a
    complimentary technology, and I would imagine that anyone who
    wrote a
    real-world app with this would also use PhoneGap.

    By far the most comprehensive HTML5 app framework I know is
    webOS. ?It
    has a really elegant design, and I've taken plenty of inspiration
    from
    it in what I've done so far.

    To date, 'dojox.mobile.app' includes:
    ?- A templated view system that allows you to organise your app
    into
    different views, with associated code and html for each.
    ?- The ability for any one view, or 'scene', to push another onto
    the
    stack, passing it data in the process. ?All it needs is the name
    of
    the view, and the system does the rest.
    ?- The ability for any view to pop itself off the stack, passing
    whatever data it likes to whatever view initially pushed it onto
    the
    stack.
    ?- An Alert box that can display multiple choices, a title and a
    label.
    ?- A popup menu that displays multiple choices.
    ?- A templated list, where the user can swipe a row to delete it.

    There's quite a bit more work to be done, including adding
    Android,
    webOS and BlackBerry styles (iPhone is mostly done right now),
    and
    adding additionaly widgets such as
    ?- An application-wide menu. ?Where the host OS supports this, it
    will
    be done natively (e.g. webOS) otherwise done with a custom widget
    ?- A JavaScript based scroller. ?I'm hoping Uxebu can help out
    with
    this at some point ;-)
    ?- A full screen picture viewer that supports swiping to move
    between images
    ?- An image gallery
    and more.

    So, is anyone interested in working on this with me?

    Thanks

    Shane
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
    Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

    iEYEARECAAYFAkvxRYEACgkQ1E2HcBNypM5/aQCfZwFIMniV6r2AlhbxJyZFkv2w
    4/oAn3uuxyC7dxXMphv5ACHip7ubIfZ0
    =Lw/C
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    --
    Bob Remeika
    http://bobremeika.com
    http://d-rails.org
    http://cometdproject.dojotoolkit.org/

    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors
    _______________________________________________
    dojo-contributors mailing list
    dojo-contributors at mail.dojotoolkit.org
    http://mail.dojotoolkit.org/mailman/listinfo/dojo-contributors


    --
    www.twistyfish.co.uk

Related Discussions

Discussion Navigation
viewthread | post
Discussion Overview
groupdojo-contributors @
categoriesdojo
postedMay 15, '10 at 7:18p
activeMay 19, '10 at 5:02a
posts10
users5
websitedojotoolkit.org

People

Translate

site design / logo © 2022 Grokbase