Hello all,

OK, quite a while ago Joyce set up Serendipity on the dojotoolkit server; so
far only she and I have made any posts...I've got some free time coming up
(basically my wife is leaving for Korea--for 4+ months--tomorrow morning),
and so I've turned my attention back to the Dojo web site and branding.

I've redone the logo, and I'm much happier with it (and apparently Alex is
too). If you'd like to see the quick draft, here it is:

http://www.dept-z.com/dropbox/dojo/logo3.20040824.gif

I've also begun sketching out the basic layout (graph paper as of yet) for
the overall site, with a focus right now on the blog itself, and with that I
started delving into the Serendipity documentation...and basically I'm not
impressed :( Part of that can be because I haven't looked at PHP in
something like 3 1/2 years; part of it (I'm sure) is that I'm currently
working on a project for SixApart where I'm getting an in-depth view of
MovableType. Either way...

I'd like to bring up the topic of blogging software again. As far as I can
see, these would be the basic requirements:

1. Multiple authors
2. A single set of categories accessible to the multiple authors.
3. The ability to customize a set of templates (as opposed to one); for
instance, an index page, an entry page, archives and comments. And when I
mean customize, I mean being able to specify things on an entry-by-entry
basis if need be, with excerpts, continuations, summaries and more.
4. The ability to provide multiple format XML feeds (like what Serendipity
has right now).
5. The ability to generate a calendar.
6. The ability to do Trackbacks.
7. The ability to create/generate multiple profile pages (I'm thinking
about Dojo information here, not necessarily blog-related but certainly
related to the overall site).
8. Remote posting (i.e. browser-based). Most of the available blogging
packages have this, but I thought I should list it anyways.
9. IP Banning / comment deletion.
10. Permalinking
11. URL rewriting, if possible.

(I'm sure there's a couple of others, but I can't think of it right now).

...so I've gone out and done a quick review of the major packages available.
In order:
1. Serendipity (what we are using now)
2. MovableType 3.x (need to pay for it)
3. TypePad (also need to pay for it)
4. Blogger (don't need to pay for it)
5. WordPress (PHP-based, free, pretty comprehensive, still looking it over)

As far as I can tell, Serendipity, MT, and WordPress support the multiple
author/template creation process. Exactly *how* each supports it, I'm still
a little uncertain; at this point I am pretty familiar with MT, but stil
have a bit to go with the other packages (and once again documentation seems
to suck). Blogger supports multiple authors, but provides for only one
template. TypePad (in theory) is essentially a web based service that uses
MT in the background; the only problem right now is that SixApart doesn't
give access to the actual templates used for a TypePad site (this will be
changing within a month or so; I should know because I have to have that
information to complete this project for them).

Of course, both MT and TypePad cost money. In theory I might be able to
talk to Ben Trott and convince him to give us a discount, but I wouldn't
count on any of that at all. I *do* have a full copy of MT 3 right now, but
I'd be really leery of actually using it without paying for it :)

So...are there arguments for or against any particular package? I would
like to be a little better informed, since obviously some of you have used
some of these other packages and seem to like it (i.e. Joyce and
Serendipity, Alex, David and even myself with Blogger, etc.); and I would
like to have this hammered out soon, because I plan on going "bingo-bango"
as a friend of mine likes to put it and get something a bit more "official"
up within 2 - 3 weeks.

---------

Other things.

We've talked about this before, but I'm at a point where I seriously need to
know how we are going to organize the overall Dojo site, in terms of major
sections. As it stands right now, I'm going with the following sections:

1. info
2. blog
3. wiki
4. docs
5. downloads

I'm working it over so that it will be fairly easy to add or remove one of
these major sections; but it would very beneficial if we had this decided on
*now*. So, am I missing anything, or do I need to think of certain things
in a different way?

Please speak up NOW, if you have an opinion. Even if the opinion is about a
single section (for instance, right now probably Leonard is the only one
dealing with the wiki, so he may have something to say about it). And bear
in mind that while I value your opinion, there may be times where I'll
ignore it (for instance, when I showed David the new logo yesterday, he said
"I don't like it" and after a little conversation it turned out the only
thing he didn't like was the color...so now I'm ignoring his opinion on it
and going forward :D). Please don't take that the wrong way; I just want to
get this decided on and done.

Tom

(ps Joyce, if Serendipity does support everything I'm thinking about, I will
probably want to pick your brains about the custom development of it.)

TRT

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  • David Schontzler at Aug 28, 2004 at 12:28 pm
    So...are there arguments for or against any particular package?
    Well, I've heard a lot of good things about WordPress. It is very
    customizable and has all the bells and whistles and it seems to be the
    package that people switch to from MT when they don't want to pay.

    That's all I know. Oh, also, Blogger is so damn easy, but not nearly
    as customizable.
  • Martin Cooper at Aug 28, 2004 at 1:07 pm
    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Tom Trenka wrote:
    <snip/>
    Other things.

    We've talked about this before, but I'm at a point where I seriously need to
    know how we are going to organize the overall Dojo site, in terms of major
    sections. As it stands right now, I'm going with the following sections:

    1. info
    2. blog
    3. wiki
    4. docs
    5. downloads

    I'm working it over so that it will be fairly easy to add or remove one of
    these major sections; but it would very beneficial if we had this decided on
    *now*. So, am I missing anything, or do I need to think of certain things
    in a different way?
    Well, "info" is a bit vague, so it's a little hard to know what you mean
    to include there. ;-) Here are a few other things to think about:

    * Mailing lists and archives
    * Bug database
    * Project news / status
    * License
    * External resources

    (I'm mostly cribbing from the Struts home page, since we've tuned that
    over a period of years.)

    Martin.

    Please speak up NOW, if you have an opinion. Even if the opinion is about a
    single section (for instance, right now probably Leonard is the only one
    dealing with the wiki, so he may have something to say about it). And bear
    in mind that while I value your opinion, there may be times where I'll
    ignore it (for instance, when I showed David the new logo yesterday, he said
    "I don't like it" and after a little conversation it turned out the only
    thing he didn't like was the color...so now I'm ignoring his opinion on it
    and going forward :D). Please don't take that the wrong way; I just want to
    get this decided on and done.

    Tom

    (ps Joyce, if Serendipity does support everything I'm thinking about, I will
    probably want to pick your brains about the custom development of it.)

    TRT


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  • Tom Trenka at Aug 28, 2004 at 1:36 pm

    <snip/>
    Other things.

    We've talked about this before, but I'm at a point where I seriously
    need to know how we are going to organize the overall Dojo site, in
    terms of major sections. As it stands right now, I'm going
    with the following sections:
    1. info
    2. blog
    3. wiki
    4. docs
    5. downloads

    I'm working it over so that it will be fairly easy to add or remove
    one of these major sections; but it would very beneficial if we had
    this decided on *now*. So, am I missing anything, or do I need to
    think of certain things in a different way?
    Well, "info" is a bit vague, so it's a little hard to know
    what you mean to include there. ;-) Here are a few other
    things to think about:

    * Mailing lists and archives
    * Bug database
    * Project news / status
    * License
    * External resources
    Heh...it's a little hard to anticipate all of the future needs we'll have,
    so "info" (aka about, etc.) is essentially the "catch-all" area. To address
    all of your list, here's what I was thinking in terms of placement:

    -- Mailing lists and archives
    Probably info.
    -- bug database, license, external resources
    Definitely info; if we want to add a "support" section, I would expect to
    move the bug db and ext resources there, although that's up for discussion.

    -- project news/status.
    I would expect that the blog is the place for project news; it should be
    simple to create a "Dojo" or "Project News" category and place that there.
    Part of the reasoning behind the multiple category / accessible by all
    requirement is to handle this exact thing. I'd also expect that the blog is
    probably going to be the most up-to-date and transient (i.e. constantly
    updating/changing), so I think that's probably the one place everyone will
    go first for news and information.

    Status is something I'd like to keep fairly persistent; something on the
    home page, probably also on the blog pages, downloads, and docs. We'll see,
    but I am expecting that there will be at least one to two short paragraphs
    that would be consistently on every page of the site. At least I'm trying
    to plan the layouts with that in mind.
    (I'm mostly cribbing from the Struts home page, since we've
    tuned that over a period of years.)
    Not a bad spot to draw influence from.
    Martin.
    More opinions, anyone?
    Tom
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 28, 2004 at 2:36 pm

    Tom Trenka wrote:
    <snip/>
    Heh...it's a little hard to anticipate all of the future needs we'll have,
    so "info" (aka about, etc.) is essentially the "catch-all" area. To address
    all of your list, here's what I was thinking in terms of placement:
    I think http://www.dojotoolkit.org/dojo_wbs_chart.png does a fairly
    decent job of describing most of what we hope to grow into eventually.
    The approach you're taking seems good for the time being.

    Regarding the choice of blog software, I've always rolled my own XSLT
    solutions, so I'm the last person to really make a decision on that.
    I'd say that the most important thing is that it doesn't get in our way
    of effectively getting our message out there. Sort of like saying that
    your text editor should be really good at editing text, but if it was
    really that easy of a concept, then Eclipse might actually have decent
    text editing capabilities instead of having everything else :)
  • Joyce Park at Aug 28, 2004 at 1:55 pm
    Hi Tom,

    Before we even spend time thinking about this we should probably talk about
    what we want from a blog in the first place.

    My thought from the beginning is that a blog would be the easiest way for us to
    put our agenda on the map as a group. I imagined that we would roll out some
    topic of interest to all of us -- e.g. whether DHTML is doomed in the face of
    XAML, what DHTML is actually good for, whether DHTML widgets should be in
    individual windows or all in one window -- that we would discuss publically on
    this blog and our individual blogs. I hoped that relatively quickly this would
    put us in the position of "hey, these people are thinking about DHTML in an
    interesting way and I want to keep tabs on their project". I think in the main
    this plan has been entirely unsuccessful. There has been no pickup from any of
    your blogs as far as I can tell, and all discussions have died fairly rapid
    deaths -- which is fine and perhaps inevitable. It's also possible that I am
    personally the wrong person for the job, since I am not famous as a DHTML dev
    per se and perhaps my style is more provocative than some of you are
    comfortable with.

    The other idea of what our blog should be is more what I think Leonard once
    suggested: announcements about Dojo's progress. If that's the case, to be
    honest, I think a long list of requirements is totally beside the point. In
    that case, I suggest we move to a smaller and lighter-weight system like
    Bloxsom, create a single admin account for group announcements, and have done
    with it. JP
  • Martin Cooper at Aug 28, 2004 at 2:12 pm

    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Joyce Park wrote:

    Hi Tom,

    Before we even spend time thinking about this we should probably talk about
    what we want from a blog in the first place.

    My thought from the beginning is that a blog would be the easiest way for us to
    put our agenda on the map as a group. I imagined that we would roll out some
    topic of interest to all of us -- e.g. whether DHTML is doomed in the face of
    XAML, what DHTML is actually good for, whether DHTML widgets should be in
    individual windows or all in one window -- that we would discuss publically on
    this blog and our individual blogs. I hoped that relatively quickly this would
    put us in the position of "hey, these people are thinking about DHTML in an
    interesting way and I want to keep tabs on their project". I think in the main
    this plan has been entirely unsuccessful. There has been no pickup from any of
    your blogs as far as I can tell, and all discussions have died fairly rapid
    deaths -- which is fine and perhaps inevitable. It's also possible that I am
    personally the wrong person for the job, since I am not famous as a DHTML dev
    per se and perhaps my style is more provocative than some of you are
    comfortable with.
    I'm not much of a blog person, but IMHO these types of discussions are
    much more effective on a mailing list. People can more easily lurk, and
    chime in when they have something to say. The messages come to them; they
    don't have to go to a web site to keep up, or to reply. A historic record
    of the discussion is available in searchable archives.

    For people who don't want all the mail (if the volume cranks up), there
    are digest lists. For people who prefer a newsreader interface, the list
    can be hooked up to gmane - which will also provide archives. So you get
    three interfaces for the price of one.

    Once decisions are made on the mailing lists, they can be recoded on the
    wiki, along with the rationale behind them. That way, anyone can check the
    wiki to see what has already been decided, so that things don't get
    rehashed too often. (Not rehashed at all would be wishful thinking. ;)

    My 2 cents...

    Martin.

    The other idea of what our blog should be is more what I think Leonard once
    suggested: announcements about Dojo's progress. If that's the case, to be
    honest, I think a long list of requirements is totally beside the point. In
    that case, I suggest we move to a smaller and lighter-weight system like
    Bloxsom, create a single admin account for group announcements, and have done
    with it. JP

    _______________________________________________
    NG-DHTML mailing list
    NG-DHTML@netwindows.org
    http://netwindows.org/mailman/listinfo/ng-dhtml_netwindows.org
  • Joyce Park at Aug 28, 2004 at 2:16 pm
    Hey Martin,

    I think you're talking about development efficiency. I'm talking about PR.
    :-) JP
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 28, 2004 at 2:30 pm

    Joyce Park wrote:
    My thought from the beginning is that a blog would be the easiest way for us to
    put our agenda on the map as a group. I imagined that we would roll out some
    topic of interest to all of us -- e.g. whether DHTML is doomed in the face of
    XAML, what DHTML is actually good for, whether DHTML widgets should be in
    individual windows or all in one window -- that we would discuss
    publically on
    this blog and our individual blogs. I hoped that relatively quickly
    this would
    put us in the position of "hey, these people are thinking about DHTML in an
    interesting way and I want to keep tabs on their project". I think in the main
    this plan has been entirely unsuccessful. There has been no pickup
    from any of
    your blogs as far as I can tell, and all discussions have died fairly rapid
    deaths -- which is fine and perhaps inevitable.
    Well, I can speak only for myself here... I've been reluctant to promote
    this "too soon"... meaning, I don't really want the whole world
    following this until we make some actual progress on the codebase. But
    maybe that's the wrong approach... if you can convince me that I'm being
    too conservative, I'll be happy to take a more proactive public approach.
    It's also possible that I am
    personally the wrong person for the job, since I am not famous as a DHTML dev
    per se and perhaps my style is more provocative than some of you are
    comfortable with.
    I don't think this is the issue... at least it isn't for me.

    - -Dylan
  • Joyce Park at Aug 28, 2004 at 6:27 pm

    --- Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    I've been reluctant to promote
    this "too soon"... meaning, I don't really want the whole world
    following this until we make some actual progress on the codebase.
    So if there's one thing I've learned from promoting Open Source projects (as
    well as from the Smiths ;-)), it's that these things take time. It's not like
    we're going to roll out a beta and the world will swoon at our feet. We have
    to make our case over and over and over and over -- long past the time when
    we're sick of making it, and have descended to the eye-rolling "whatever"
    stage. Plus we have to make and manage contacts all the time, and it's hard to
    predict how these vectors will happen. The more exposure we have -- the more
    blog posts, the more presentations, the more demos, the more links, the more
    friends who talk about us with their friends, the more high-ranking search
    results on appropriate topics -- the more chances we have to meet our audience.
    It's marketing 101, right? There's almost literally no value to running an
    advertisement once... you have to commit to an organized campaign for months or
    years to build up that recognition that will cause people to turn to you when
    they encounter a problem you can solve for them.

    Perhaps this is more apparent to me because I'm sort of a latecomer to DHTML,
    but we have a harder task than many groups. For people who have no skin in the
    game, it's very very very difficult to understand why DHTML is worth doing at
    all, especially compared to Flash and XUL and whatever XAML turns out to be.
    Lots of people also more or less gave up on DHTML a few years ago, and aren't
    especially eager to be seduced and abandoned again. I think convincing people
    that DHTML is a viable long-term app development platform adds even more
    difficulty to the task. And finally, explaining why there's a need for a
    unified toolkit is a further stretch. You all have interesting things to say
    about it in person, but no way does it come across on the site.

    Anyway Tom, didn't mean to totally hijack your blogware post. S9y actually
    does everything you want, but it sounds to me like you're just not very
    comfortable with it -- which is fine with me, I hate all blogware anyway :-).
    Since it sounds like you'll be taking over the web infrastructure, can I just
    ask that you transfer over the s9y data to whatever blogware you end up
    picking? Thanks, JP
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 28, 2004 at 7:55 pm

    Joyce Park wrote:
    --- Dylan Schiemann wrote:
    I've been reluctant to promote
    this "too soon"... meaning, I don't really want the whole world
    following this until we make some actual progress on the codebase.
    So if there's one thing I've learned from promoting Open Source
    projects (as
    well as from the Smiths ;-)), it's that these things take time. It's not like
    we're going to roll out a beta and the world will swoon at our feet. We have
    to make our case over and over and over and over -- long past the time when
    we're sick of making it, and have descended to the eye-rolling "whatever"
    stage. Plus we have to make and manage contacts all the time, and
    it's hard to
    predict how these vectors will happen. The more exposure we have -- the more
    blog posts, the more presentations, the more demos, the more links, the more
    friends who talk about us with their friends, the more high-ranking search
    results on appropriate topics -- the more chances we have to meet our audience.
    It's marketing 101, right? There's almost literally no value to
    running an
    advertisement once... you have to commit to an organized campaign for months or
    years to build up that recognition that will cause people to turn to you when
    they encounter a problem you can solve for them.

    Perhaps this is more apparent to me because I'm sort of a latecomer to DHTML,
    but we have a harder task than many groups. For people who have no
    skin in the
    game, it's very very very difficult to understand why DHTML is worth doing at
    all, especially compared to Flash and XUL and whatever XAML turns out to be.
    Lots of people also more or less gave up on DHTML a few years ago, and aren't
    especially eager to be seduced and abandoned again. I think
    convincing people
    that DHTML is a viable long-term app development platform adds even more
    difficulty to the task. And finally, explaining why there's a need for a
    unified toolkit is a further stretch. You all have interesting things to say
    about it in person, but no way does it come across on the site.
    To argue the counterpoint (not that I don't agree with what you have to
    say), a number of the big flame-outs were victims of being marketed
    before there was something their worth marketing (boo.com is the best
    example that comes to mind). But in our case, I think you're right. My
    concern was that I get a little upset with myself when I get someone
    highly interested in Dojo, then have to scale back their expectations
    when they start asking what they can check out now. So I guess my point
    becomes, I feel fine at this point marketing our industry, our prestige,
    our expertise, but am still a little reluctant telling the world what
    we're doing until we have something at least partially in place.

    - -Dylan
  • Joyce Park at Aug 28, 2004 at 8:00 pm

    --- Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    So I guess my point
    becomes, I feel fine at this point marketing our industry, our prestige,
    our expertise, but am still a little reluctant telling the world what
    we're doing until we have something at least partially in place.
    Oh, I totally concur. I thought we would state the problem a bunch, get people
    familiar with the way we're thinking about it, and sort of convince them we
    have something new worth saying. But I'm not saying we MUST do this, it was
    just sort of my plan. JP
  • Dylan Schiemann at Aug 28, 2004 at 8:12 pm

    Joyce Park wrote:
    --- Dylan Schiemann wrote:

    So I guess my point
    becomes, I feel fine at this point marketing our industry, our prestige,
    our expertise, but am still a little reluctant telling the world what
    we're doing until we have something at least partially in place.

    Oh, I totally concur. I thought we would state the problem a bunch,
    get people
    familiar with the way we're thinking about it, and sort of convince them we
    have something new worth saying. But I'm not saying we MUST do this, it was
    just sort of my plan. JP
    All right, I'll start taking a more proactive role in this.

    - -Dylan
  • Tom Trenka at Aug 28, 2004 at 9:29 pm
    Well...I was going to turn around and try to explain myself when you first
    sent this one, but then you pretty much hit the nail on the head with one of
    your other e-mails, Joyce, so for the most part you've already said what I
    was thinking of saying :)

    My basic model that I'm thinking of is Monologue, the collaborative blog
    feed of the guys working on Mono. I think that collectively, we've got more
    than enough people here to be able to convince--over the long term--others
    of the benefits of a unified browser-based toolkit, as well as keep a
    potential audience up to date as to the progress of the toolkit's
    development. As well as informing all of the basic opinions leading to the
    choice of working on this kit, and even perhaps persuading some of the
    lurkers here (cough Dean and Simon cough) that it's something worth
    pursuing.

    As far as s9y, in some ways it does seem like it could work for us, but even
    playing with it briefly points me at some of it's weaknesses (for instance,
    the inability to access any of the categories you've created, Joyce), hence
    the reason for the original post. I don't expect to be taking over
    infrastructure at all, but I do think I've been sort of designated as the
    one doing the design...and I'd really prefer not to do it in a vacuum. (I
    can probably figure out how to make it do what I want it to do, but if
    there's something out there that's a little closer to satisfying all of our
    requirements...)

    Martin, your points are taken. I'll see what I can do. But...Joyce is
    right in this as far as Marketing 101 goes. Our potential audience is not
    just the developers who might use the toolkit, but (more importantly) the
    people who make the decisions to use the toolkit in the first place. In my
    opinion, it's these people (i.e. management) who we have to convince first;
    most developers who are interested in DHTML will (probably) take an interest
    in what we're doing simply because of the nature of what we're doing. The
    goal is to keep those kinds of people informed while convincing "those who
    can say yes" to adopt the kit in the first place.

    And yes, participation (particularly with the blog) is a good start. In the
    very least it informs a potential audience as to who is participating;
    hopefully it would be picked up in the "blogosphere" and begin to generate
    its own interest. Noticing Scott's ping on one of Joyce's posts, I would
    hope that would be the case.

    Tom
    -----Original Message-----
    From: NG-DHTML-bounces@netwindows.org
    On Behalf Of Joyce Park
    Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:56 PM
    To: discussion on the future of DHTML
    Subject: Re: [ng-dhtml] blog software / requirements

    Hi Tom,

    Before we even spend time thinking about this we should
    probably talk about what we want from a blog in the first place.

    My thought from the beginning is that a blog would be the
    easiest way for us to put our agenda on the map as a group.
    I imagined that we would roll out some topic of interest to
    all of us -- e.g. whether DHTML is doomed in the face of
    XAML, what DHTML is actually good for, whether DHTML widgets
    should be in individual windows or all in one window -- that
    we would discuss publically on this blog and our individual
    blogs. I hoped that relatively quickly this would put us in
    the position of "hey, these people are thinking about DHTML
    in an interesting way and I want to keep tabs on their
    project". I think in the main this plan has been entirely
    unsuccessful. There has been no pickup from any of your
    blogs as far as I can tell, and all discussions have died
    fairly rapid deaths -- which is fine and perhaps inevitable.
    It's also possible that I am personally the wrong person for
    the job, since I am not famous as a DHTML dev per se and
    perhaps my style is more provocative than some of you are
    comfortable with.

    The other idea of what our blog should be is more what I
    think Leonard once
    suggested: announcements about Dojo's progress. If that's
    the case, to be honest, I think a long list of requirements
    is totally beside the point. In that case, I suggest we move
    to a smaller and lighter-weight system like Bloxsom, create a
    single admin account for group announcements, and have done
    with it. JP

    _______________________________________________
    NG-DHTML mailing list
    NG-DHTML@netwindows.org
    http://netwindows.org/mailman/listinfo/ng-dhtml_netwindows.org
  • Joyce Park at Aug 29, 2004 at 1:03 am

    --- Tom Trenka wrote:

    the inability to access any of the categories you've created, Joyce)
    Sorry, what does this mean? I can access all the categories just fine.
    And yes, participation (particularly with the blog) is a good start.
    Remember that you guys are encouraged to post on your own blogs, and just link
    to a post on the Dojo blog -- that's just as good in the long run. JP
  • David Schontzler at Aug 29, 2004 at 1:18 am
    Assuming we had oft-read blogs.

    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 23:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Joyce Park
    wrote:
    --- Tom Trenka wrote:
    the inability to access any of the categories you've created, Joyce)
    Sorry, what does this mean? I can access all the categories just fine.
    And yes, participation (particularly with the blog) is a good start.
    Remember that you guys are encouraged to post on your own blogs, and just link
    to a post on the Dojo blog -- that's just as good in the long run. JP



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  • Alex Russell at Aug 29, 2004 at 1:36 am

    On Saturday 28 August 2004 11:19 pm, David Schontzler wrote:
    Assuming we had oft-read blogs.
    I have the logs to proove that at least mine toils in deserved
    obscurity = )

    - --
    Alex Russell
    alex@burstlib.org BD10 7AFC 87F6 63F9 1691 83FA 9884 3A15 AFC9 61B7
    alex@netWindows.org F687 1964 1EF6 453E 9BD0 5148 A15D 1D43 AB92 9A46
  • Martin Cooper at Aug 28, 2004 at 2:16 pm
    BTW, on the logo, I *really* liked the previous caligraphy-style one. That
    had flair, and a certain "je ne sais quois". The new one looks so plain
    and undistinguished by comparison. ;-(

    (Sorry, Tom!)

    Martin.

    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Tom Trenka wrote:

    Hello all,

    OK, quite a while ago Joyce set up Serendipity on the dojotoolkit server; so
    far only she and I have made any posts...I've got some free time coming up
    (basically my wife is leaving for Korea--for 4+ months--tomorrow morning),
    and so I've turned my attention back to the Dojo web site and branding.

    I've redone the logo, and I'm much happier with it (and apparently Alex is
    too). If you'd like to see the quick draft, here it is:

    http://www.dept-z.com/dropbox/dojo/logo3.20040824.gif

    I've also begun sketching out the basic layout (graph paper as of yet) for
    the overall site, with a focus right now on the blog itself, and with that I
    started delving into the Serendipity documentation...and basically I'm not
    impressed :( Part of that can be because I haven't looked at PHP in
    something like 3 1/2 years; part of it (I'm sure) is that I'm currently
    working on a project for SixApart where I'm getting an in-depth view of
    MovableType. Either way...

    I'd like to bring up the topic of blogging software again. As far as I can
    see, these would be the basic requirements:

    1. Multiple authors
    2. A single set of categories accessible to the multiple authors.
    3. The ability to customize a set of templates (as opposed to one); for
    instance, an index page, an entry page, archives and comments. And when I
    mean customize, I mean being able to specify things on an entry-by-entry
    basis if need be, with excerpts, continuations, summaries and more.
    4. The ability to provide multiple format XML feeds (like what Serendipity
    has right now).
    5. The ability to generate a calendar.
    6. The ability to do Trackbacks.
    7. The ability to create/generate multiple profile pages (I'm thinking
    about Dojo information here, not necessarily blog-related but certainly
    related to the overall site).
    8. Remote posting (i.e. browser-based). Most of the available blogging
    packages have this, but I thought I should list it anyways.
    9. IP Banning / comment deletion.
    10. Permalinking
    11. URL rewriting, if possible.

    (I'm sure there's a couple of others, but I can't think of it right now).

    ...so I've gone out and done a quick review of the major packages available.
    In order:
    1. Serendipity (what we are using now)
    2. MovableType 3.x (need to pay for it)
    3. TypePad (also need to pay for it)
    4. Blogger (don't need to pay for it)
    5. WordPress (PHP-based, free, pretty comprehensive, still looking it over)

    As far as I can tell, Serendipity, MT, and WordPress support the multiple
    author/template creation process. Exactly *how* each supports it, I'm still
    a little uncertain; at this point I am pretty familiar with MT, but stil
    have a bit to go with the other packages (and once again documentation seems
    to suck). Blogger supports multiple authors, but provides for only one
    template. TypePad (in theory) is essentially a web based service that uses
    MT in the background; the only problem right now is that SixApart doesn't
    give access to the actual templates used for a TypePad site (this will be
    changing within a month or so; I should know because I have to have that
    information to complete this project for them).

    Of course, both MT and TypePad cost money. In theory I might be able to
    talk to Ben Trott and convince him to give us a discount, but I wouldn't
    count on any of that at all. I *do* have a full copy of MT 3 right now, but
    I'd be really leery of actually using it without paying for it :)

    So...are there arguments for or against any particular package? I would
    like to be a little better informed, since obviously some of you have used
    some of these other packages and seem to like it (i.e. Joyce and
    Serendipity, Alex, David and even myself with Blogger, etc.); and I would
    like to have this hammered out soon, because I plan on going "bingo-bango"
    as a friend of mine likes to put it and get something a bit more "official"
    up within 2 - 3 weeks.

    ---------

    Other things.

    We've talked about this before, but I'm at a point where I seriously need to
    know how we are going to organize the overall Dojo site, in terms of major
    sections. As it stands right now, I'm going with the following sections:

    1. info
    2. blog
    3. wiki
    4. docs
    5. downloads

    I'm working it over so that it will be fairly easy to add or remove one of
    these major sections; but it would very beneficial if we had this decided on
    *now*. So, am I missing anything, or do I need to think of certain things
    in a different way?

    Please speak up NOW, if you have an opinion. Even if the opinion is about a
    single section (for instance, right now probably Leonard is the only one
    dealing with the wiki, so he may have something to say about it). And bear
    in mind that while I value your opinion, there may be times where I'll
    ignore it (for instance, when I showed David the new logo yesterday, he said
    "I don't like it" and after a little conversation it turned out the only
    thing he didn't like was the color...so now I'm ignoring his opinion on it
    and going forward :D). Please don't take that the wrong way; I just want to
    get this decided on and done.

    Tom

    (ps Joyce, if Serendipity does support everything I'm thinking about, I will
    probably want to pick your brains about the custom development of it.)

    TRT


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