[This is a private thread with Martin that I now wish was on the bosh-dev
mailing list; no addition attempt at all has been made to make this email
make sense to you without you reading the whole thread from bottom to top!
:) ]


NO WAY CAN YOU HAVE COMMENTS IN CHEF!!! :)

If it was written in chef, I wouldn't rewrite it in shell and vice versa. I
guess I'm ok with its current look and feel because it already exists and
I'm assuming we're only talking about minor changes across the couple dozen
shell scripts.

I guess I'd rather start the thought/requirements process again for the
agent - like, what are the end products we want from our stemcell building
infrastructure & BOSH code base above it; and perhaps that will more
obviously guide us to continue with the shell scripts or begin the large
overhaul to chef)

For example:

* ISOs that can be laid down on bare metal or raw hypervisors like xenserver
* the bosh_agent gem can be run on any supported OS and it does all its own
preparation of the VM (that its it would run/re-run its own chef scripts
rather than assume the VM was ready for it); and importantly do its own
upgrades to a VM if it itself was upgraded
* Easy to create 3rd party stemcells like micro cloudfoundry (which is
currently coded into the bosh_agent gem, rather than coded into the
cloudfoundry/micro repository) whilst reusing the existing stages
* Support vagrant for building/testing/developing stemcells such as
https://github.com/ankurcha/stemcell
* Easy to support additional OS distros
* Easy to support future versions of supported OS distros (ubuntu 12.04,
etc)

Others?

Nic


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Martin Englund wrote:

And I think the declarative nature of puppet/chef is clearer than shell -
and you can have comments there too :)

If you are making shell idempotent, you are just reimplementing the
above...

cheers,
/Martin
--
Martin Englund, Staff Engineer, Cloud Foundry, VMware Inc.
"The question is not if you are paranoid, it is if you are paranoid
enough."

On Feb 18, 2013, at 16:28, Dr Nic Williams wrote:

To warn you of my predispositions: I think shell is more readable and less
misunderstandable than chef. You can still have higher order functions for
clarity and modularity.

And where it's not obvious what's going on, shell supports a concept
called "comments" :)
On Monday, February 18, 2013, Dr Nic Williams wrote:

Yep back to work tomorrow. See you then.
On Monday, February 18, 2013, Martin Englund wrote:

Just making the scripts idempotent would be a good start, but then we
might as well switch to something which gives you that in the first place...

Are you at Pivotal tomorrow? This warrants a longer discussion :)

/M

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2013, at 14:20, Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@gmail.com>
wrote:

Technically the shell scripts shouldn't have to work inside a chroot as
part of a stemcell creation process. Chef/puppet/shell is all the same to
me :)

We just need to refactor the shell towards being idempotent (like chef)
and also running outside of the stemcell building process.

Or is there more to it?
On Monday, February 18, 2013, Martin Englund wrote:

I'm in the same boat - I'm working on a Solaris stemcell, and the
first step is just to get the agent up and running...

I've always said that we should use puppet/chef to do the stemcell
config. That way we should be able to use those scripts stand-alone
too on a fresh image :)

/M

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Dr Nic Williams
wrote:
Mate, I really just want to play with bosh_agent - try to get it
running on
a vanilla ubuntu server and tell it to do things.

But I have this suspicion that this might be a futile activity - and that
much/all of the setup of bosh_agent isn't in the bosh_agent gem; but rather
in the stemcell shell scripts.

And this is probably ok; except that the core idea of the stemcell scripts
it to create a stemcell rather than to setup the current server.

So I'm sort of back to where I was with bosh-solo. I want to re-use all the
stemcell shell scripts, but not to create a stemcell, rather to
prepare the
current server.

What are my options?

Perhaps can we create a new ubuntu ISO (and vagrant box) that
contains all
the goodies; and then people can boot up that ISO on their servers and
they'll have bosh_agent running and all the dependencies (monit, etc).

I'm prepared to do this work; just not sure what is the clever,
future proof
(bosh-solo was not future proof) solution. Ideas?

Nic



--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
http://drnicwilliams.com
http://starkandwayne.com
cell +1 (415) 860-2185
twitter @drnic


--
cheers,
/Martin
--
Martin Englund, Staff Engineer, Cloud Foundry, VMware Inc.
"The question is not if you are paranoid, it is if you are paranoid
enough."

--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
http://drnicwilliams.com
http://starkandwayne.com
cell +1 (415) 860-2185
twitter @drnic
--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
http://drnicwilliams.com
http://starkandwayne.com
cell +1 (415) 860-2185
twitter @drnic
--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
http://drnicwilliams.com
http://starkandwayne.com
cell +1 (415) 860-2185
twitter @drnic

--
Dr Nic Williams
Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
http://drnicwilliams.com
http://starkandwayne.com
cell +1 (415) 860-2185
twitter @drnic

Search Discussions

  • Matthew Kocher at Feb 25, 2013 at 12:19 am
    I don't have a coherent opinion yet, but I've spent some time thinking
    about this.

    - I like the idea of using chef-solo for configuring stemcells
    - I like that our current stemcells haven't been booted, but that's
    not a deal breaker
    - You can run chef-solo in a chroot jail, but you'll need to disable
    its attempts to restart services, among other things.
    - Razor seems like something we'd investigate when looking at bare
    metal deployments
    - I'm familiar with the process of making AMIs, is there a guide to
    producing an ubuntu iso from raw packages?
    - There are lots of director changes necessary for bare metal
    deployments, but they'd also probably help with using spot instances
    on ec2, as instances become something that comes into and out of
    existence on their own.


    On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 8:23 AM, Dr Nic Williams
    wrote:
    [This is a private thread with Martin that I now wish was on the bosh-dev
    mailing list; no addition attempt at all has been made to make this email
    make sense to you without you reading the whole thread from bottom to top!
    :) ]


    NO WAY CAN YOU HAVE COMMENTS IN CHEF!!! :)

    If it was written in chef, I wouldn't rewrite it in shell and vice versa. I
    guess I'm ok with its current look and feel because it already exists and
    I'm assuming we're only talking about minor changes across the couple dozen
    shell scripts.

    I guess I'd rather start the thought/requirements process again for the
    agent - like, what are the end products we want from our stemcell building
    infrastructure & BOSH code base above it; and perhaps that will more
    obviously guide us to continue with the shell scripts or begin the large
    overhaul to chef)

    For example:

    * ISOs that can be laid down on bare metal or raw hypervisors like xenserver
    * the bosh_agent gem can be run on any supported OS and it does all its own
    preparation of the VM (that its it would run/re-run its own chef scripts
    rather than assume the VM was ready for it); and importantly do its own
    upgrades to a VM if it itself was upgraded
    * Easy to create 3rd party stemcells like micro cloudfoundry (which is
    currently coded into the bosh_agent gem, rather than coded into the
    cloudfoundry/micro repository) whilst reusing the existing stages
    * Support vagrant for building/testing/developing stemcells such as
    https://github.com/ankurcha/stemcell
    * Easy to support additional OS distros
    * Easy to support future versions of supported OS distros (ubuntu 12.04,
    etc)

    Others?

    Nic


    On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Martin Englund wrote:

    And I think the declarative nature of puppet/chef is clearer than shell -
    and you can have comments there too :)

    If you are making shell idempotent, you are just reimplementing the
    above...

    cheers,
    /Martin
    --
    Martin Englund, Staff Engineer, Cloud Foundry, VMware Inc.
    "The question is not if you are paranoid, it is if you are paranoid
    enough."

    On Feb 18, 2013, at 16:28, Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    To warn you of my predispositions: I think shell is more readable and less
    misunderstandable than chef. You can still have higher order functions for
    clarity and modularity.

    And where it's not obvious what's going on, shell supports a concept
    called "comments" :)
    On Monday, February 18, 2013, Dr Nic Williams wrote:

    Yep back to work tomorrow. See you then.
    On Monday, February 18, 2013, Martin Englund wrote:

    Just making the scripts idempotent would be a good start, but then we
    might as well switch to something which gives you that in the first place...

    Are you at Pivotal tomorrow? This warrants a longer discussion :)

    /M

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Feb 18, 2013, at 14:20, Dr Nic Williams <drnicwilliams@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Technically the shell scripts shouldn't have to work inside a chroot as
    part of a stemcell creation process. Chef/puppet/shell is all the same to me
    :)

    We just need to refactor the shell towards being idempotent (like chef)
    and also running outside of the stemcell building process.

    Or is there more to it?
    On Monday, February 18, 2013, Martin Englund wrote:

    I'm in the same boat - I'm working on a Solaris stemcell, and the
    first step is just to get the agent up and running...

    I've always said that we should use puppet/chef to do the stemcell
    config. That way we should be able to use those scripts stand-alone
    too on a fresh image :)

    /M

    On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Dr Nic Williams
    wrote:
    Mate, I really just want to play with bosh_agent - try to get it
    running on
    a vanilla ubuntu server and tell it to do things.

    But I have this suspicion that this might be a futile activity - and
    that
    much/all of the setup of bosh_agent isn't in the bosh_agent gem; but
    rather
    in the stemcell shell scripts.

    And this is probably ok; except that the core idea of the stemcell
    scripts
    it to create a stemcell rather than to setup the current server.

    So I'm sort of back to where I was with bosh-solo. I want to re-use
    all the
    stemcell shell scripts, but not to create a stemcell, rather to
    prepare the
    current server.

    What are my options?

    Perhaps can we create a new ubuntu ISO (and vagrant box) that
    contains all
    the goodies; and then people can boot up that ISO on their servers
    and
    they'll have bosh_agent running and all the dependencies (monit,
    etc).

    I'm prepared to do this work; just not sure what is the clever,
    future proof
    (bosh-solo was not future proof) solution. Ideas?

    Nic



    --
    Dr Nic Williams
    Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
    http://drnicwilliams.com
    http://starkandwayne.com
    cell +1 (415) 860-2185
    twitter @drnic


    --
    cheers,
    /Martin
    --
    Martin Englund, Staff Engineer, Cloud Foundry, VMware Inc.
    "The question is not if you are paranoid, it is if you are paranoid
    enough."


    --
    Dr Nic Williams
    Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
    http://drnicwilliams.com
    http://starkandwayne.com
    cell +1 (415) 860-2185
    twitter @drnic

    --
    Dr Nic Williams
    Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
    http://drnicwilliams.com
    http://starkandwayne.com
    cell +1 (415) 860-2185
    twitter @drnic

    --
    Dr Nic Williams
    Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
    http://drnicwilliams.com
    http://starkandwayne.com
    cell +1 (415) 860-2185
    twitter @drnic


    --
    Dr Nic Williams
    Stark & Wayne LLC - consultancy for Cloud Foundry users
    http://drnicwilliams.com
    http://starkandwayne.com
    cell +1 (415) 860-2185
    twitter @drnic

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postedFeb 23, '13 at 4:24p
activeFeb 25, '13 at 12:19a
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