FAQ
This is the 2nd time this has happened to me. There was a kernel
release over the weekend to .67.0.15, yet, they did not release the
updated GFS to go along with it, so when the machine rebooted, there was
no gfs file system in the new running kernel which in turn wreaked havoc
on my cluster. I truly wish they would not do that :). I guess I shall
have to not allow automatic yum updates from these machines.

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  • Linux at May 12, 2008 at 8:00 pm
    Well, I should add a terrible story for XFS...

    I did a "yum update" and after updating many packages I rebooted and viola...
    Old xfs module ruined my 1.2TB partition. After updating to correct module and
    hours of xfs_repair I had to move and rename 500 subfolders from lost+found.

    I am using CentOS because I have to (for cPanel).
    I am not very comfortable with it (indeed I am a pro gentooer for 5-7 years)
    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:
    This is the 2nd time this has happened to me. There was a kernel
    release over the weekend to .67.0.15, yet, they did not release the
    updated GFS to go along with it, so when the machine rebooted, there was
    no gfs file system in the new running kernel which in turn wreaked havoc
    on my cluster. I truly wish they would not do that :). I guess I shall
    have to not allow automatic yum updates from these machines.

    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • Tru Huynh at May 12, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:00:18PM +0300, Linux wrote:
    Well, I should add a terrible story for XFS...

    I did a "yum update" and after updating many packages I rebooted and viola...
    You seem to enjoy living dangerously ? Don't you ever use a testing machine
    before rolling the updates on a production server?
    We appreciate your trust in our project, but you should always test on your
    own setup.
    Old xfs module ruined my 1.2TB partition. After updating to correct module and
    hours of xfs_repair I had to move and rename 500 subfolders from lost+found.
    That is the 1st time I hear such a story: if the xfs module is not installed
    for your new kernel, the only thing that should happen is the inability to
    mount the XFS filesystem.
    I am using CentOS because I have to (for cPanel).
    That's trolling, CPanel is NOT CentOS...

    Tru
    --
    Tru Huynh (mirrors, CentOS-3 i386/x86_64 Package Maintenance)
    http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBEFA581B
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  • Doug Tucker at May 12, 2008 at 9:20 pm
    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

    On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 22:48 +0200, Tru Huynh wrote:
    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:00:18PM +0300, Linux wrote:
    Well, I should add a terrible story for XFS...

    I did a "yum update" and after updating many packages I rebooted and viola...
    You seem to enjoy living dangerously ? Don't you ever use a testing machine
    before rolling the updates on a production server?
    We appreciate your trust in our project, but you should always test on your
    own setup.
    Old xfs module ruined my 1.2TB partition. After updating to correct module and
    hours of xfs_repair I had to move and rename 500 subfolders from lost+found.
    That is the 1st time I hear such a story: if the xfs module is not installed
    for your new kernel, the only thing that should happen is the inability to
    mount the XFS filesystem.
    I am using CentOS because I have to (for cPanel).
    That's trolling, CPanel is NOT CentOS...

    Tru
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  • Scott Thistle at May 12, 2008 at 9:42 pm
    Upstream updates cluster packages about a week after OS patches. I found
    that out when putting in a new cluster and 4.6 came out. The cluster
    packages lagged behind a week deliberately for stability's sake.

    Scott
    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:50 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

    On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 22:48 +0200, Tru Huynh wrote:
    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:00:18PM +0300, Linux wrote:
    Well, I should add a terrible story for XFS...

    I did a "yum update" and after updating many packages I rebooted and
    viola...
    You seem to enjoy living dangerously ? Don't you ever use a testing machine
    before rolling the updates on a production server?
    We appreciate your trust in our project, but you should always test on your
    own setup.
    Old xfs module ruined my 1.2TB partition. After updating to correct
    module and
    hours of xfs_repair I had to move and rename 500 subfolders from
    lost+found.
    That is the 1st time I hear such a story: if the xfs module is not installed
    for your new kernel, the only thing that should happen is the inability to
    mount the XFS filesystem.
    I am using CentOS because I have to (for cPanel).
    That's trolling, CPanel is NOT CentOS...

    Tru
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  • Tru Huynh at May 12, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 04:20:46PM -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:
    Tru, Hi Doug,
    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :).
    Sure, but they could probably understand if it's 'critical' ;)
    Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    CentOS can't rebuild if upstream hasn't released the corresponding src.rpm.
    Upstream's GFS is often released later than the kernel RHSA...
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?
    No idea.

    Cheers,

    Tru
    --
    Tru Huynh (mirrors, CentOS-3 i386/x86_64 Package Maintenance)
    http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBEFA581B
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  • Scott Silva at May 12, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    on 5-12-2008 2:20 PM Doug Tucker spake the following:
    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?
    Then don't turn on automatic updates. That way you can verify that the new
    modules are in place before setting that kernel as default and re-booting.

    --
    MailScanner is like deodorant...
    You hope everybody uses it, and
    you notice quickly if they don't!!!!

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  • Fajar Priyanto at May 13, 2008 at 12:52 am

    On Tuesday 13 May 2008 04:20:46 Doug Tucker wrote:
    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?
    From my experience, if the production server is running OK, and the update is
    not security-related, then there is NO NEED to update in your situation.
    If you DO want to update for whatever reason, test it first in a testbed.

    Trust me. It comes from a traumatic experience :)

    --
    Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | Linux tutorial
    http://linux2.arinet.org
    07:51:43 up 54 min, 2.6.22-14-generic GNU/Linux
    Let's use OpenOffice. http://www.openoffice.org
    The real challenge of teaching is getting your students motivated to learn.
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  • Johnny Hughes at May 14, 2008 at 10:44 am

    Doug Tucker wrote:
    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?
    Please be aware that redhat releases GFS at a different time than the,
    usually 2-3 days later (at the earliest).

    In this case, here are the upstream release dates:

    kernel - 5/7/2008
    gfs kmods - 5/9/2008

    my point is that even upstream does not release these at the same time.

    What you should do (and what everyone who has kmods on c4 should do) is
    to exclude kernels from automatic updates ... then you can manually
    update the kernels and kmods together separately.

    Thanks,
    Johnny Hughes

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  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 2:44 pm
    I intend to do that. Kernel's removed from automatic updates.

    We'll agree to disagree about the importance of not breaking an
    officially supported kernel filesystem on an automated upgrade because
    only a "few" of us are affected. Keep in mind this is not an
    unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with. I say there is
    little in a new kernel that the "rest" of the users cannot wait 2-3
    lousy days for. Wanna stretch it to a week to meet your statement of
    "earliest", I can live with that and my statement still stands. And, I
    do realize this is not centos's fight, I guess my complaint is with
    RedHat in this case, they should be more responsible than that. If M$
    took that policy and released official upgrades they knew would break
    even a small percentage of their users, especially something as critical
    as the very filesystem that your entire user data resides on, we (the
    linux community) would be throwing them under the rug for it.

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 05:44 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
    Doug Tucker wrote:
    Tru,

    I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test
    environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated
    at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded
    with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled
    against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs
    and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that
    matter) and be lucky enough it would work?
    Please be aware that redhat releases GFS at a different time than the,
    usually 2-3 days later (at the earliest).

    In this case, here are the upstream release dates:

    kernel - 5/7/2008
    gfs kmods - 5/9/2008

    my point is that even upstream does not release these at the same time.

    What you should do (and what everyone who has kmods on c4 should do) is
    to exclude kernels from automatic updates ... then you can manually
    update the kernels and kmods together separately.

    Thanks,
    Johnny Hughes

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    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • Mark Hull-Richter at May 14, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Doug Tucker wrote:
    I intend to do that. Kernel's removed from automatic updates.
    There you go.
    We'll agree to disagree about the importance of not breaking an
    officially supported kernel filesystem on an automated upgrade because
    only a "few" of us are affected. Keep in mind this is not an
    unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with. I say there is
    little in a new kernel that the "rest" of the users cannot wait 2-3
    lousy days for. Wanna stretch it to a week to meet your statement of
    "earliest", I can live with that and my statement still stands. And, I
    do realize this is not centos's fight, I guess my complaint is with
    RedHat in this case, they should be more responsible than that. If M$
    took that policy and released official upgrades they knew would break
    even a small percentage of their users, especially something as critical
    as the very filesystem that your entire user data resides on, we (the
    linux community) would be throwing them under the rug for it.
    1) You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom
    post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....

    2) This isn't really an issue of "agreeing to disagree." XFS is *not*
    a Red Hat product at all. They (RH) do not support it at all. The
    CentOS project provides XFS as an *extra* that is NOT part of the
    mainline CentOS release stream. It is only supported by the CentOS
    group in the centosplus repository, which is a courtesy provided for
    free by the CentOS group.

    IOW, CentOS does not have to support XFS at all. That they do is a courtesy.

    Now, if you like the centosplus "product" and use it, remember to
    follow the guidelines for it - little things like not doing automatic
    updates because you already *know* that centosplus does not come out
    immediately when RH releases a change that CentOS picks up and
    releases as well.

    All of this is clearly discussed here from time to time, so the
    expectations have been set accordingly. Please try to remember this
    and manage your installations accordingly, too.

    And that's *my* soapbox, from which I will now step down and shut up.
    Temporarily.

    :-}

    mhr
  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:07 -0700, MHR wrote:
    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Doug Tucker wrote:
    I intend to do that. Kernel's removed from automatic updates.
    There you go.
    We'll agree to disagree about the importance of not breaking an
    officially supported kernel filesystem on an automated upgrade because
    only a "few" of us are affected. Keep in mind this is not an
    unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with. I say there is
    little in a new kernel that the "rest" of the users cannot wait 2-3
    lousy days for. Wanna stretch it to a week to meet your statement of
    "earliest", I can live with that and my statement still stands. And, I
    do realize this is not centos's fight, I guess my complaint is with
    RedHat in this case, they should be more responsible than that. If M$
    took that policy and released official upgrades they knew would break
    even a small percentage of their users, especially something as critical
    as the very filesystem that your entire user data resides on, we (the
    linux community) would be throwing them under the rug for it.
    1) You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom
    post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....
    I'm sorry, that last sentence was unnecessary and just rude. I don't
    tell you how to set your email client and what your preference is toward
    how you like to read your email. I find it completely annoying to have
    to scroll to the bottom of a message to read a reply. I will comply
    with the group as a whole that I chose to join, I was unaware that
    bottom posting was preference. But I do not appreciate the tone, you
    could have easily asked nicely or referred me to the preference policy
    for me to follow.
    2) This isn't really an issue of "agreeing to disagree." XFS is *not*
    a Red Hat product at all. They (RH) do not support it at all. The
    CentOS project provides XFS as an *extra* that is NOT part of the
    mainline CentOS release stream. It is only supported by the CentOS
    group in the centosplus repository, which is a courtesy provided for
    free by the CentOS group.
    This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and
    a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent
    paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that.
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.
    IOW, CentOS does not have to support XFS at all. That they do is a courtesy.

    Now, if you like the centosplus "product" and use it, remember to
    follow the guidelines for it - little things like not doing automatic
    updates because you already *know* that centosplus does not come out
    immediately when RH releases a change that CentOS picks up and
    releases as well.
    I already agreed and removed kernel from the update, no need to lecture.
    Again, if you will take the time to read instead of knee-jerking a
    reaction in some automatic defense of your feelings, you will note that
    I took the aim at RedHat for the issue, and said it was not CentOS's
    problem. Read boy, read.
    All of this is clearly discussed here from time to time, so the
    expectations have been set accordingly. Please try to remember this
    and manage your installations accordingly, too.

    And that's *my* soapbox, from which I will now step down and shut up.
    Temporarily.
    And unfortunately, all based on improper understanding of what was
    written, which makes it inappropriate in a public forum. Me thinks you
    had seen enough of the other guy whining about his unsupported platform,
    saw the word XFS in my paragraph, and basically quit reading and decided
    to send your XFS rant at me. I hope from a therapeutic standpoint, it
    helped you in some fashion.

    :D

    :-}

    mhr
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  • John R Pierce at May 14, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    Doug Tucker wrote:
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

    GFS is only 'officially supported' under a seperate $$$$ contract from
    Red Hat. And, if you're a GFS customer of Red Hat's, I'm pretty darn
    sure the first thing they do is disable kernel updates... In fact, I
    seem to recall that RHEL4 ships with kernel updates disabled, you have
    to use `up2date --force` or something to enable them.
  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:37 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
    Doug Tucker wrote:
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

    GFS is only 'officially supported' under a seperate $$$$ contract from
    Red Hat.
    And? It's official. In fact, ext3 is only officially supported from
    them these day without a $$$ contract. Which is why we're all here! :D

    And, if you're a GFS customer of Red Hat's, I'm pretty darn
    sure the first thing they do is disable kernel updates... In fact, I
    seem to recall that RHEL4 ships with kernel updates disabled, you have
    to use `up2date --force` or something to enable them.
    Yes, but kernel is disabled from EL4 reguardless of filesystem, so GFS
    has nothing to do with that. YOu can just edit the up2date file to
    remove that. I merely believe that GFS filesystem updates should be
    released in conjuntion with kernel with all the other filesystems built
    in, treating it no differently since it is officially supported, just
    not put in the standard kernel build to put separation between it and
    the $$ extra product. And that is merely, an opinion.



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  • Johnny Hughes at May 14, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:37 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
    Doug Tucker wrote:
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.
    GFS is only 'officially supported' under a seperate $$$$ contract from
    Red Hat.
    And? It's official. In fact, ext3 is only officially supported from
    them these day without a $$$ contract. Which is why we're all here! :D
    But, RHCS and RHGFS are not part of RHEL, and not part of base CentOS
    (before centos-5 that is). It is an addon repository. We do update it,
    but it takes a back seat to the main centos repo.

    Regardless ... I am building those updates and they should be released
    after I QA them sometime later today.
    And, if you're a GFS customer of Red Hat's, I'm pretty darn
    sure the first thing they do is disable kernel updates... In fact, I
    seem to recall that RHEL4 ships with kernel updates disabled, you have
    to use `up2date --force` or something to enable them.
    Yes, but kernel is disabled from EL4 reguardless of filesystem, so GFS
    has nothing to do with that. YOu can just edit the up2date file to
    remove that. I merely believe that GFS filesystem updates should be
    released in conjuntion with kernel with all the other filesystems built
    in, treating it no differently since it is officially supported, just
    not put in the standard kernel build to put separation between it and
    the $$ extra product. And that is merely, an opinion.
    Sure ... the reason they want you to manually update the kernel is that
    for all but the most basic of systems, you have to think BEFORE you
    update it.

    All I am saying is that GFS (and any other ADDED repo besides Base or
    Updates) will get updates ... however they are not normally going to be
    as fast as the Base and Updates repos. That is just how it goes.

    Thanks,
    Johnny Hughes

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  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    All I am saying is that GFS (and any other ADDED repo besides Base or
    Updates) will get updates ... however they are not normally going to be
    as fast as the Base and Updates repos. That is just how it goes.
    I can totally live with that, I was just b**ching about RH's approach.
    I'm not expecting centos to do anything more, I appreciate the fact that
    this exists, as it keeps me from having to use debian :).
  • Mark Hull-Richter at May 14, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:07 -0700, MHR wrote:
    1) You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom
    post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....
    I'm sorry, that last sentence was unnecessary and just rude. I don't
    tell you how to set your email client and what your preference is toward
    how you like to read your email. I find it completely annoying to have
    to scroll to the bottom of a message to read a reply. I will comply
    with the group as a whole that I chose to join, I was unaware that
    bottom posting was preference. But I do not appreciate the tone, you
    could have easily asked nicely or referred me to the preference policy
    for me to follow.
    You apparently didn't see the smiley I left out of the last sentence.... :-)
    I didn't mean it to be rude at all - no tone implied. I just noticed
    that you have posted several times to the list and all of them, until
    now, were top posts, unlike almost everyone else. I /was/ trying to
    be nice....
    This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and
    a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent
    paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that.
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.
    Yes, I've been reading the thread. I you didn't mention GFS in the
    specific post to which I was replying, but you're right, it's there in
    prior posts. So all of my commentary about XFS does not apply to your
    post. Non-sequitur - mea culpa. :-)
    I already agreed and removed kernel from the update, no need to lecture.
    It was intended to be a gentle reminder. (You've obviously never seen
    me lecture....)
    Again, if you will take the time to read instead of knee-jerking a
    reaction in some automatic defense of your feelings, you will note that
    I took the aim at RedHat for the issue, and said it was not CentOS's
    problem. Read boy, read. <snip>
    And unfortunately, all based on improper understanding of what was
    written, which makes it inappropriate in a public forum. Me thinks you
    had seen enough of the other guy whining about his unsupported platform,
    saw the word XFS in my paragraph, and basically quit reading and decided
    to send your XFS rant at me. I hope from a therapeutic standpoint, it
    helped you in some fashion.
    You seem awfully touchy here - are you sure you're not lecturing me? :-)

    Take a breath, relax, you were not under attack, lecture or anything
    rude. I meant it with the best of intentions - I usually do.

    mhr
  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:38 -0700, MHR wrote:
    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:07 -0700, MHR wrote:
    1) You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom
    post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....
    I'm sorry, that last sentence was unnecessary and just rude. I don't
    tell you how to set your email client and what your preference is toward
    how you like to read your email. I find it completely annoying to have
    to scroll to the bottom of a message to read a reply. I will comply
    with the group as a whole that I chose to join, I was unaware that
    bottom posting was preference. But I do not appreciate the tone, you
    could have easily asked nicely or referred me to the preference policy
    for me to follow.
    You apparently didn't see the smiley I left out of the last sentence.... :-)
    I didn't mean it to be rude at all - no tone implied. I just noticed
    that you have posted several times to the list and all of them, until
    now, were top posts, unlike almost everyone else. I /was/ trying to
    be nice....
    "It's not that hard" would have gotten you b**ch slapped even with a
    smile on your face in person. Just stick to polite, it's not that
    hard :D.
    This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and
    a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent
    paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that.
    My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone
    else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my
    statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that
    someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never
    be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file
    system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.
    Yes, I've been reading the thread. I you didn't mention GFS in the
    specific post to which I was replying, but you're right, it's there in
    prior posts. So all of my commentary about XFS does not apply to your
    post. Non-sequitur - mea culpa. :-)
    I already agreed and removed kernel from the update, no need to lecture.
    It was intended to be a gentle reminder. (You've obviously never seen
    me lecture....)
    touche!
    Again, if you will take the time to read instead of knee-jerking a
    reaction in some automatic defense of your feelings, you will note that
    I took the aim at RedHat for the issue, and said it was not CentOS's
    problem. Read boy, read. <snip>
    And unfortunately, all based on improper understanding of what was
    written, which makes it inappropriate in a public forum. Me thinks you
    had seen enough of the other guy whining about his unsupported platform,
    saw the word XFS in my paragraph, and basically quit reading and decided
    to send your XFS rant at me. I hope from a therapeutic standpoint, it
    helped you in some fashion.
    You seem awfully touchy here - are you sure you're not lecturing me? :-)

    Take a breath, relax, you were not under attack, lecture or anything
    rude. I meant it with the best of intentions - I usually do.
    Bad thing about email, it's hard to grasp tongue in cheek humor and tone
    isn't it? Didn't you see my <bfg> at the end of my response?

    Do you honestly, like having to scroll down with the rolly thing on your
    mouse 9 times to get to the reply only to find it is not something you
    cared to read? I say toss it at the top in my face where I can ignore
    it with less effort.

    :D
    BFG!

    mhr
    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • John R Pierce at May 14, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    Doug Tucker wrote:
    Do you honestly, like having to scroll down with the rolly thing on your
    mouse 9 times to get to the reply only to find it is not something you
    cared to read? I say toss it at the top in my face where I can ignore
    it with less effort.
    the other key part of bottom posting is to delete all but what you're
    replying to. noone needs to see the whole thread quoted in every
    message, just enough context to frame the response. And, delete the
    .SIG stuff on the end, too.
  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 13:00 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
    Doug Tucker wrote:
    Do you honestly, like having to scroll down with the rolly thing on your
    mouse 9 times to get to the reply only to find it is not something you
    cared to read? I say toss it at the top in my face where I can ignore
    it with less effort.
    the other key part of bottom posting is to delete all but what you're
    replying to. noone needs to see the whole thread quoted in every
    message, just enough context to frame the response. And, delete the
    .SIG stuff on the end, too.
    I'm still annoyed. Forgot to mention I hate having to move my cursor in
    a different location than where it is when I hit the reply button before
    I can type too. Honestly, I see zero benefit in this. And looking at
    my other tech threads (isc.org and opennms.org) and everyone appears to
    be top posting, although I guess, they could all be breaking the rules.

    Humor turned off for a minute, completely and honestly, can someone
    explain to me *why* this is the etiquette here? In every fashion, I
    find it sooo much harder to follow. Does it date back to some dead text
    based mail client that actually made this easier for some reason?

    Left first paragraph at the top, because I find it too relevant in this
    one to remove.
  • Akemi Yagi at May 14, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    Humor turned off for a minute, completely and honestly, can someone
    explain to me *why* this is the etiquette here? In every fashion, I
    find it sooo much harder to follow. Does it date back to some dead text
    based mail client that actually made this easier for some reason?
    This is linked from the CentOS FAQ:

    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

    Akemi
  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    This is linked from the CentOS FAQ:

    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

    Akemi
    LOL! This is just TOO good.


    1. Because it is proper Usenet Etiquette.

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...

    2. We use a good news reader like Forte Agent.

    OMG. I haven't used a usenet reader in 10 years for anything. Assumed
    Forte Agent went out of development years ago.

    I'll stop there, there is not a single thing on that page I can agree with anymore,
    technology, email and the web have moved on beyond that ideology of old.

    I'm already at about 50% of the time reading email on my iphone mail app. Like it
    or not for the religious users (and I'll count myself there in many categories), eventually
    most of our mail will be read on a handheld device. So the 2 line preview pane at the top
    before deciding to atually open the message becomes very relevant, which does not lend
    itself useful in "bottom posting". I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop user
    regardless of client not read their mail using the "preview" pane. They need to just
    rename that, as people even rarely click to open the message anymore. Again, not good
    when bottom posting. I got poo-poo'd off about my GFS/kernel release schedule, for being
    in some small minority. So, where are bottom posters, in terms of majority these days?
    Maybe it's time, to update with the times?

    Go ahead, let the bashing begin!

    I'm off to another building, taking my email in my pocket with me...
  • Scott Nelson at May 14, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.
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  • Doug Tucker at May 14, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.

    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
  • Jason Pyeron at May 14, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    -----Original Message-----
    From: centos-bounces@centos.org On
    Behalf Of Doug Tucker
    Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:49 PM
    To: CentOS mailing list
    Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.

    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos



    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    - -
    - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us -
    - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100 -
    - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333 Baltimore, Maryland 21218 -
    - -
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
    privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you
    have received it in error, purge the message from your system and
    notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you
    is prohibited.
  • Les Mikesell at May 14, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    Jason Pyeron wrote:
    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.

    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    There is business email where you reply immediately and expect the
    recipient to remember the context he sent so top-posting works and
    internet email where you reply when you get around to it and most of the
    readers aren't going to remember any context so top-posting doesn't work.
    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that
    you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down,
    replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place
    conversation-wise.

    --
    Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell@gmail.com
  • Jason Pyeron at May 15, 2008 at 12:05 am
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    - -
    - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us -
    - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100 -
    - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333 Baltimore, Maryland 21218 -
    - -
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
    privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you
    have received it in error, purge the message from your system and
    notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you
    is prohibited.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: centos-bounces@centos.org On
    Behalf Of Les Mikesell
    Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:59 PM
    To: CentOS mailing list
    Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

    Jason Pyeron wrote:
    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.

    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    There is business email where you reply immediately and expect the
    recipient to remember the context he sent so top-posting works and
    internet email where you reply when you get around to it and most of the
    readers aren't going to remember any context so top-posting doesn't work.
    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that
    you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down,
    replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place
    conversation-wise.

    Point, and click. Okay got it. Hmmmmmm, what am I forgetting to do before
    sending?
    --
    Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell@gmail.com

    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • Jason Pyeron at May 15, 2008 at 12:07 am

    -----Original Message-----
    From: centos-bounces@centos.org On
    Behalf Of Les Mikesell

    Jason Pyeron wrote:

    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that
    you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down,
    replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place
    conversation-wise.

    I know that, but it was a lot easier in pine.


    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    - -
    - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us -
    - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100 -
    - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333 Baltimore, Maryland 21218 -
    - -
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
    privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you
    have received it in error, purge the message from your system and
    notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you
    is prohibited.
  • Les Mikesell at May 16, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Jason Pyeron wrote:
    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that
    you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down,
    replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place
    conversation-wise.

    I know that, but it was a lot easier in pine.
    I'm not sure I've ever seen the words 'easy' and 'pine' used in the same
    sentence before. Pine has to have the most counterintuitive interface
    known to man.

    I usually hold the shift key down while using the down-arrow to move
    over the parts to remove which will select/highlight it, hit delete at
    the end of the irrelevant part, arrow on down past the relevant context
    to add my response below it, repeating if there is more than one section
    continuing in the conversation. Seems natural to me, works in just
    about every GUI-type mailer and the cursor moves down as fast as I can
    read so it doesn't slow anything down.

    --
    Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell@gmail.com
  • R P Herrold at May 16, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    On Fri, 16 May 2008, Les Mikesell wrote:

    I'm not sure I've ever seen the words 'easy' and 'pine' used
    in the same sentence before. Pine has to have the most
    counterintuitive interface known to man.
    I usually hold the shift key down while using the down-arrow
    to move over the parts to remove which will select/highlight
    it, hit delete at the end of the irrelevant part, arrow on
    down past the relevant context to add my response below it,
    repeating if there is more than one section continuing in
    the conversation.
    There's the problem, Les !! -- the pine (now, alpine) editor,
    pico, does not work that way. Fortunately, [al]pine will
    honor an EDITOR environment variable for those preferring a
    different editor, so one can go nuts, and even, say, use
    emacs.

    - Russ herrold
  • Paul Heinlein at May 16, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    On Fri, 16 May 2008, R P Herrold wrote:

    There's the problem, Les !! -- the pine (now, alpine) editor, pico,
    does not work that way. Fortunately, [al]pine will honor an EDITOR
    environment variable for those preferring a different editor, so one
    can go nuts, and even, say, use emacs.
    I love alpine. It works with UTF-8 so you can read spam in the
    original Hebrew or Chinese, but it's text-only so you avoid NSFW
    images. You get foreign language practice in an HR-acceptable manner.
    Woohoo!

    --
    Paul Heinlein <> heinlein@madboa.com <> http://www.madboa.com/
  • Akemi Yagi at May 16, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Paul Heinlein wrote:

    I love alpine. It works with UTF-8 so you can read spam in the original
    Hebrew or Chinese, but it's text-only so you avoid NSFW images. You get
    foreign language practice in an HR-acceptable manner. Woohoo!
    Yes, alpine makes a huge difference for me (a long time user of pine).
    I can read/write in my native language Japanese. I used to have to
    use a separate mail client when communicating in .jp, but now I don't
    have to.

    Akemi
  • Martyn Drake at May 16, 2008 at 9:15 am

    On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:55 PM, Jason Pyeron wrote:
    I just wish I could configure my outlook ...
    No excuse now :)

    http://quotefix.flupp.de/

    Regards,

    Martyn
  • John R Pierce at May 14, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Doug Tucker wrote:
    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    Not on this or most any other technical list, with the probable
    exception of Microsoft Outlook users who seem to think they are the
    center of the universe and that everyone else should bow to their
    non-standards-compliant client's quirks.

    have you ever seen an email list digest? digests and archives filled
    with fully quoted top posted mail are completely unreadable. most of
    the lists I manage personally, over half the subscribers use the
    'digest' (and the vast majority of these rarely if ever post).

    here's another good discussion on this.
    http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/top-posting.html




    A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
    Q: Why should I start my reply below the quoted text?

    A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
    Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

    A: The lost context.
    Q: What makes top-posted replies harder to read than bottom-posted?

    A: Yes.
    Q: Should I trim down the quoted part of an email to which I'm replying?
  • Scott Silva at May 14, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    on 5-14-2008 2:48 PM Doug Tucker spake the following:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.

    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    Don't say "we all". I am reading this list through gmane with a newsreader.

    --
    MailScanner is like deodorant...
    You hope everybody uses it, and
    you notice quickly if they don't!!!!

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  • Bob Taylor at May 15, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    I *think* Scott wrote:
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.
    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days
    of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for
    their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now
    there are email lists. What's the difference? The names.

    Bob
    --
    Bob Taylor
  • Mark Hull-Richter at May 15, 2008 at 6:04 pm
    Folks,

    This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss
    it as "beaten to death one more time" and go on? :-)

    Thanks.

    mhr
  • David Mackintosh at May 16, 2008 at 3:09 am

    On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:04:08AM -0700, MHR wrote:
    This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss
    it as "beaten to death one more time" and go on? :-)
    You must be new to the Internet. There's no such thing as too much
    beating for any horse, dead or not.

    :)

    --
    /\oo/\
    / /()\ \ David Mackintosh |
    dave@xdroop.com | http://www.xdroop.com
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  • Mark Hull-Richter at May 16, 2008 at 3:51 am

    On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:09 PM, David Mackintosh wrote:
    On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:04:08AM -0700, MHR wrote:
    This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss
    it as "beaten to death one more time" and go on? :-)
    You must be new to the Internet. There's no such thing as too much
    beating for any horse, dead or not.

    :)
    Possibly - I've only been on it since 1984 or so. :-)

    But you know, every once in a while sanity strikes (this list!) and
    people move on.

    "It can happen." (Angels in the Outfield)

    mhr
  • Guy Boisvert at May 16, 2008 at 12:02 am

    Bob Taylor wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    I *think* Scott wrote:
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one).
    Same concepts.
    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which
    you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom
    post.
    Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days
    of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for
    their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now
    there are email lists. What's the difference? The names.

    Bob
    I second Bob on that! I do a lot of support and top posting is a
    *PITA*. It's like reading a book from bottom to top, right to left!
    It's "doable" but nor very confortable IMHO.

    I'm not saying i have absolute truth, just sharing the view of somebody
    that do tech support since 15 years.


    Guy Boisvert, ing.
    IngTegration inc.
  • Carol Anne Ogdin at May 16, 2008 at 12:53 am
    Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any
    of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail
    load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the
    moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own
    needs for further editing and documentation.

    I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and
    wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe*
    something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my
    current issue today. A "forum" is more practical as a tool for building a
    collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't
    cut it for a "knowledge base" built up of our collective experience.

    Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum" can
    eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to
    search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central
    resource.

    --Carol Anne
    -----Original Message-----
    From: centos-bounces@centos.org
    On Behalf Of Guy Boisvert
    Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:03 PM
    To: CentOS mailing list
    Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

    Bob Taylor wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:
    On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:
    On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

    ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last
    month...user base is over 4000...
    I *think* Scott wrote:
    Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are
    using one).
    Same concepts.
    I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read
    email lists,
    let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette,
    which you will find yourself in the very minute minority
    that replies
    bottom post.
    Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the
    days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because
    the reason
    for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet
    *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference?
    The names.
    Bob
    I second Bob on that! I do a lot of support and top posting
    is a *PITA*. It's like reading a book from bottom to top,
    right to left!
    It's "doable" but nor very confortable IMHO.

    I'm not saying i have absolute truth, just sharing the view
    of somebody that do tech support since 15 years.


    Guy Boisvert, ing.
    IngTegration inc.
    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • Karanbir Singh at May 16, 2008 at 1:06 am

    Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:
    Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any
    of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail
    load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the
    moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own
    needs for further editing and documentation.

    I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and
    wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe*
    something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my
    current issue today. A "forum" is more practical as a tool for building a
    collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't
    cut it for a "knowledge base" built up of our collective experience.

    Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum" can
    eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to
    search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central
    resource.

    Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd guess you have heard
    of this thing called 'search' ? it works best on text, that is context specific
    and goes with you in the list archive.

    Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for me. I cant be asked
    to go clicking around all over the place looking for posts here and there in
    various websites and pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list
    feeds that interest me into a common resource that is available to me on th move
    or whenever I might need.

    And I know that this is the state of play with a large number of people who dont
    have the time going out looking for things, but prefer letting info / content
    come to them. Most forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a
    lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit. While is quite the
    opposite to the lists. The info comes to you once you are subscribed, and an
    easy search digs up relevant content when you need it.

    One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people who stick it out
    in the CentOS Forums working and helping the people who come posting there is
    because I know just how much work it is and just how much time is taken up by
    it. I, for one, cant put in that effort.

    Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from them ( subscription
    info is included in the headers of each email sent form the list), and move to
    the forums on www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ?

    I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as
    lists, but I cant be asked really.

    --
    Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219@icq
  • Carol Anne Ogdin at May 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm
    Dear Mr. Singh:

    I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with
    alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the
    communities they serve.

    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.

    --Carol Anne
    -----Original Message-----
    From: centos-bounces@centos.org
    On Behalf Of Karanbir Singh
    Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:07 PM
    To: CentOS mailing list
    Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

    Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:
    Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was
    maintained
    on any of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would
    reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of
    interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself
    that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and
    documentation.
    I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian,
    and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that
    *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now
    relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more
    practical as a
    tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community.
    This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a "knowledge base"
    built up of our collective experience.
    Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum"
    can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who
    would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago
    could search
    the central resource.

    Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd
    guess you have heard of this thing called 'search' ? it works
    best on text, that is context specific and goes with you in
    the list archive.

    Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for
    me. I cant be asked to go clicking around all over the place
    looking for posts here and there in various websites and
    pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list feeds
    that interest me into a common resource that is available to
    me on th move or whenever I might need.

    And I know that this is the state of play with a large number
    of people who dont have the time going out looking for
    things, but prefer letting info / content come to them. Most
    forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a
    lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit.
    While is quite the opposite to the lists. The info comes to
    you once you are subscribed, and an easy search digs up
    relevant content when you need it.

    One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people
    who stick it out in the CentOS Forums working and helping the
    people who come posting there is because I know just how much
    work it is and just how much time is taken up by it. I, for
    one, cant put in that effort.

    Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from
    them ( subscription info is included in the headers of each
    email sent form the list), and move to the forums on
    www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ?

    I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly
    as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really.

    --
    Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219@icq
    _______________________________________________
    CentOS mailing list
    CentOS@centos.org
    http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
  • Steve Huff at May 16, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    On May 16, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience.
    Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with
    behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy
    people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    hmm. perhaps we should put some of that 51 years of experience to
    use in evaluating this particular situation? while i can't see
    inside your head, i can refer to the policies you yourself have
    published (http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/DDB.htm).

    The "core" participants can be identified by seeing how many other
    people
    ("core" or not) refer to them by name. The named people are the
    "core" group.
    Make sure you remain sensitive to their concerns, for they
    implicitly speak
    for the entire population of participants.

    by any definition, Karanbir is one of the core participants of this
    forum and of the CentOS project. have you lurked here a while? if
    so, i'm surprised you don't know this. on the CentOS website, please
    check Information->The CentOS Team->Members and see if some of those
    names look familiar. please treat him with the respect he is due.

    If the boundaries are not clearly established, differing
    expectations will
    ensure that somebody feels the boundaries have been crossed. That's
    why it's
    important to have some published guidelines for behavior.

    the CentOS project does, in fact, have such published guidelines for
    mailing lists, available here:

    http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id

    (that's Support->Mailing Lists off the main page). issues concerning
    posting and quoting are covered there, quite unambiguously. please
    respect the published guidelines of this forum, *as you yourself
    recommend*.

    Of course, the newcomer might immediately and inadvertently violate
    some
    local cultural norms, sort of like walking through the flower bed on
    the
    way to the front door. In this case, it's usually best to take the
    process
    of new party education off-line, into e-mail. Chastising people in
    public
    for not reading the published guidelines, or for doing something
    they shouldn't
    almost guarantees they'll never participate again.

    ok, make up your mind; which do you want to be? are you a "tentative
    participant" who doesn't know how to behave and needs to be
    acculturated to this forum's norms, or are you a seasoned
    professional with 117,000 messages worth of experience in community-
    building? if you're the first, please stop telling everyone else how
    to behave; if you're the second, please stop making newbie mistakes,
    since you should know better.

    thank you.

    -steve
    --
    If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
    improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v
  • Karanbir Singh at May 17, 2008 at 12:14 am
    Hi,

    Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:
    Dear Mr. Singh:

    I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with
    alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the
    communities they serve.
    Which is quite fair, and the point I was making as well. However, the
    poit I was also making ( and have now repeated about 4 times ) is- this
    is the lists not the forums. We have some guidelines and the moderaters
    will make an effort to implement them.
    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    ok, so you are > 51 years old. Which was good to know. I'll respect you
    for your age. Apart from that you've made no real contribution to the
    conversation here.

    --
    Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219@icq
  • Matt Shields at May 17, 2008 at 12:55 am

    On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
    Hi,

    Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:
    Dear Mr. Singh:

    I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with
    alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the
    communities they serve.
    Which is quite fair, and the point I was making as well. However, the
    poit I was also making ( and have now repeated about 4 times ) is- this
    is the lists not the forums. We have some guidelines and the moderaters
    will make an effort to implement them.
    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    ok, so you are > 51 years old. Which was good to know. I'll respect you
    for your age. Apart from that you've made no real contribution to the
    conversation here.
    I think the thing that's annoying about top posting is explained with
    this example (grabbed from a Boston Linux & Unix Group signature).
    I'll have to admit when I'm not thinking about it, there have been a
    few times where I've top posted (bad habit from the corporate world),
    but if people would take 5 minutes to read a complete thread backwards
    with comments inserted in between other comments, it gets very
    confusing. Bottom posting or posting in between comments makes sense.


    A: Yes.
    Q: Are you sure?
    A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
    Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

    --
    -matt
  • William L. Maltby at May 17, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 20:55 -0400, Matt Shields wrote:
    <snip>
    I think the thing that's annoying about top posting is explained with
    this example (grabbed from a Boston Linux & Unix Group signature).
    I'll have to admit when I'm not thinking about it, there have been a
    few times where I've top posted (bad habit from the corporate world),
    but if people would take 5 minutes to read a complete thread backwards
    with comments inserted in between other comments, it gets very
    confusing. Bottom posting or posting in between comments makes sense.


    A: Yes.
    Q: Are you sure?
    A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
    Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?
    How did you get back on topic here? ;-)

    Regardless, after wading through almost all of these posts and remaining
    mum (in hopes that the futility of it all would eventually dawn on the
    various contributors), I've been overwhelmed by an irrational desire to
    address the underlying fundamentals of the "netiquette" for mailing
    lists and forums.

    Don't worry - I'll be very brief.

    Snipping: origins were in bandwidth limitations (I was already
    "seasoned" when 300 baud was blinding fast) of both the physical
    infrastructure and users. For many, infrastructure limits are now
    irrelevant, but for many, still relevant. SNIP PEOPLE!

    Top posting vs. embedded or "bottom" posting: the human brain is a very
    strong associative processor (my bad puns which you all have been spared
    is proof positive of this). Context strongly assists that process.
    Physical juxtaposition of related statements enhances context. All this
    enhances comprehension, formulation of ideas and responses and
    creativity.

    It also helps the bandwidth issues of human brains by making "scanning"
    faster, more comprehensible and less error prone (witness the number of
    times folks say "I should have read the whole thing first").

    EMBED YOUR REPLIES FOLKS!

    Regardless of the above, common courtesy *demands* that one respect the
    accepted standards of their hosts. This is especially so when they
    provide great value for no recompense and expend their time and energy
    in support of *you*, their guest.

    To do less is to be extremely self-centered, selfish and inconsiderate.
    You increase their time consumption and effort by doing things, to suit
    yourself, that increase their burden.

    The same standards you would use when being a guest at someone's home
    should apply here or in any similar venue.

    Going off topic again here.

    I'm of the same mind as KS. I jumped into the forums for awhile trying
    to help others out. It was just too time consuming. The constant "point
    and click", manually looking and selecting threads, "the fly-by
    postings" all conspired to make me question both the value of what I
    tried to contribute and the trade off of my time and energy.

    Contrarily, the mailing lists presents to me, allows fast scan and
    selection and processing, and I take a lot less time and energy
    garnering the benefits. This makes me more prone to contribute. I
    throttle the urge so as to avoid adding "chaff".

    Searching the lists is easy regardless of the age of the topic (ditto
    for the forums when I'm doing a google).

    Preferred mailer": who really cares? That's pure personal preference.
    Opinions only help expose others to options and therefore have some
    value. But we all know that topic is peripheral to the main topic.

    'Nuff said. I'm now going to delete all the rest of the posts related to
    this thread without reading them.

    --
    Bill
  • Scott Silva at May 19, 2008 at 9:53 pm

    on 5-16-2008 8:14 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:
    Dear Mr. Singh:

    I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with
    alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the
    communities they serve.

    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    So 51 years ago you had to be working on either Univac or a CDC 1604. There
    wasn't much else around in 1957. Digital had just opened and hadn't produced a
    system yet, so Sperry Rand and the new kids CDC were about it.

    --
    MailScanner is like deodorant...
    You hope everybody uses it, and
    you notice quickly if they don't!!!!

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  • John R Pierce at May 19, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    Scott Silva wrote:
    on 5-16-2008 8:14 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:
    ......Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with
    behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    So 51 years ago you had to be working on either Univac or a CDC 1604.
    There wasn't much else around in 1957. Digital had just opened and
    hadn't produced a system yet, so Sperry Rand and the new kids CDC were
    about it.
    you left out the IBM 1440, and card tabulating systems.
  • Ray Van Dolson at May 19, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 02:53:50PM -0700, Scott Silva wrote:
    on 5-16-2008 8:14 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:
    Dear Mr. Singh:

    I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with
    alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the
    communities they serve.

    Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in
    51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors
    like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who
    think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.
    So 51 years ago you had to be working on either Univac or a CDC 1604. There
    wasn't much else around in 1957. Digital had just opened and hadn't
    produced a system yet, so Sperry Rand and the new kids CDC were about it.
    Someone around for 10 years much less 51 years would know that
    Karanbir's style of communication should be considered "blunt" and not
    offensive. It's a common style of communication for developers. I
    never take it personally...

    I read an interesting take on "why" once. Can't remember the link
    though... nerds need to remember that normal folk appreciate niceities
    in conversation, and normal folk need to remember that nerds are often
    very blunt but aren't really trying to be offensive.

    And for the record, top posting is evil (but ubiquitous thanks to MS
    Outlook and friends) and I much prefer mailing lists to forums. :)

    Ray
  • Mark Hull-Richter at May 19, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
    Someone around for 10 years much less 51 years would know that
    Karanbir's style of communication should be considered "blunt" and not
    offensive. It's a common style of communication for developers. I
    never take it personally...
    Excellent advice, especially for newbies and non-nerds.
    I read an interesting take on "why" once. Can't remember the link
    though... nerds need to remember that normal folk appreciate niceities
    in conversation, and normal folk need to remember that nerds are often
    very blunt but aren't really trying to be offensive.
    In which case, a nerd with 51 years experience should understand
    (instead of complaining).
    And for the record, top posting is evil (but ubiquitous thanks to MS
    Outlook and friends) and I much prefer mailing lists to forums. :)
    Then you must also be a nerd.

    (Me, too, of course!)

    mhr

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