[Catalyst] IDE/editor

OSX? TextMate, TextWrangler, BBEddit. In that order. :-)

A few of my fellow Perl developers here have adopted Eclipse as their
IDE of choice. Coupled with http://e-p-i-c.sf.net/ and it's fabulous
CVS/SVN support it's a perfect tool for those who like to see 'the big
picture'.

Christopher H. Laco wrote:
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EPIC. Never heard of it. ;-)

http://e-p-i-c.sourceforge.net/faq.html#How_to_run_Perl_scripts_inside_Eclipse_

Now the funny part is that you did NOT recommend Eclipse after all!

Christopher H. Laco wrote:
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MLB.com: Where Baseball is Always On

I'm really really picky about my editors. I've used Textpad on Windows
forever, and recently SCite. What I look for in an editor is that the
toolbar is slim, but I have a lot of options under hood.

For me, those "options" have to be the ability to change these things
per file type:

syntax coloring
tab/space stop/size
default encoding (UTF8, UTF16, OEM, Latin)
default endings (LF, CRLF, CR)
write/or not write the BOM (Byte Order Marker)

This last 3 always seemed to trip me up in Eclipse/EPIC inthe early 3.0
days...and of course, Eclipse was always slow for me.. compared to
Textpad/Scite.

Back when I owned a working mac (91-96), I was BBEdit all the way.
And when I get my next Mac, I'm sure I'll be all about TextMate.

-=Chris

And this is exactly why I still use vim as my primary editor. It goes
well with my cowboy-style coding practices. It runs everywhere. It works
over slow and/or unreliable links (Pocket PC and bluetooth/GPRS,
anyone?). And so much more. However...
...TextMate is a great application that is very much in keeping with
core Mac UI guidelines. I tried using it for a few projects, and I have
to say that it's excellent. But here's what I don't like about TextMate:
it's not free. Not meaning to sound cheap and nitpicking, but how can a
tool that's trying to cater to open source developers not be free?

*stopped rant, prepared to be flamed*
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MLB.com: Where Baseball is Always On

Exactly. Somewhat like this:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html

I say forget about TextMate. emacs isn't as nice looking (arguably),
but it's tons more functional. TextMate is really basic, but emacs has
some very advanced modes. (nxml-mode was written by a designer of XML,
so it's really good at what it does. c-mode has been perfected by
hundreds of the best C programmers. cperl-mode was PPI before PPI
existed. even TT mode, CSS-mode, svk mode, etc. are great.) The
disadvantage is that you have to RTFM. If you're not doing that,
though, why are you programming?

Here's the emacs wiki. Enjoy: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki

(And yes, their wiki is written in Perl.)

We could be slipping off topic here because I was talking about TextMate
not being free as in parking as opposed to Free as in beer. That is not
to say that I do not subscribe anymore to this model of total and
unconditional freedom that Mr. Stallman likes to preach.

The point here is that you can use whatever gets you where you want to
go. If Java-trapped Eclipse is that tool, then be it. What really annoys
me is the fact that you have to pay for a tool that's geared towards OSS
development. Many such OSS developers are barely getting by anyway.
Nobody is forcing them to pay for or even consider using TextMate, but
this is just a weird business model that I don't understand.
Emacs and Eclipse, and even vim to a certain degree, are platforms that
can be either used as simple editors, or morphed by the user into
comprehensive development environments. Unfortunately for many, these
platforms are like DIY remote-controlled car kits: assembly is required.
I've stumbled upon something called Eclipse for LAMP, but I don't know
how close that comes to an out-of-the-box kind of deal.

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MLB.com: Where Baseball is Always On

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch :)

In this case, the chances that somebody invested effort in a open-source
(or even freeware) IDE geared towards _your_ specific needs and
expectations (or even Catalyst/Perl-for-Web specific needs and
expectations) are slim to none. So I'd venture to say: some assembly may
always be required. If you want something more than your regular
syntax-highlighting tab-supporting editor, you gotta either learn a
platform (whether it's Eclipse, Emacs, Vim or whatnot) or write your own.

My two cents on editors: deep IDE integration ain't what it's cracked up
to be. A powerful editor (with serious syntax highlight and decent code
folding will do the trick for me. For now, it's vim for me. I've tried
hard, I've tried (X)Emacs, Eclipse+EPIC, jEdit, Komodo, NEdit and even
CodeWright, SetEdit and The Hessling Editor (along with a myriad of
other editors). They're either too slow, too limited or too
idiosyncratic (yes, modal editors are no different) for my taste. vim is
by no means perfect, but it's the best tool I've found so far.

PS. here's a TextEditor wiki where you can knock yourself out in the
search for the perfect editor (aka the developers holy grail):
http://texteditors.org/

Since we?re posting links:

http://www.friday.com/bbum/2006/03/17/text-editing/
http://www.friday.com/bbum/2006/11/09/bbedit-vs-textmate-the-editor-wars-revisited/

Regards,

Eclipse runs perfectly with GCJ (compiled to native code) or GIJ
(interpreted). The Java Trap doesn't apply to Eclipse.

Have you looked at UltraEdit for Windows (unfortunately no version for
Linux)

http://www.ultraedit.com/

I think it gives you everything you listed and more.

Regards
Ian Docherty

Christopher H. Laco wrote:

Last time I tried it, I hated it. Felt like the interface was too
busy...and from Windows 3.11. Now that it's up to 12, maybe it's worth
another shot...

Yup. Still hate it. :-)

Try jedit (dev version), http://www.jedit.org/

It has everything I need and everything you mentioned. So far I only miss
subversion plugin. It looks on my desktop like
http://kofeina.net/eloy/desktop/_thumbs/jedit.png.html

Disadvantage: it's written in java+swing. I don't mind.

eloy

Ugly as sin, and the interface was less than intuitive. Tried it last year.

I worked with a guy who used it for his everyday coding. He seemed to
have gotten used to 5-minute delays when saving a file. *sigh*

eloy@pawnhearts.eu.org wrote:
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MLB.com: Where Baseball is Always On

"Max Afonov" <max.afonov@mlb.com> writes:

I've never had this issue.

I am a long time devotee of EditPad Pro, which DOES have a (non-free)
Linux version. I'm just about as handy with vim, since I spend a lot of
time working over ssh, but when it comes down to hardcore coding, I
prefer EditPad. It won me over with robust regex support and tabs before
either were common on Windows. Of course I haven't auditioned another
text editor in at least five years.

Of course, it's not POD-aware, which screws with the syntax coloring a
bit. And, as I said, it's not free.

JT

For vim I use the MiniBuffExplorer plugin and split windows - give you
tab like interface, and is faster than gvim7's own tabs IMO.

Ash

emacs' iswitchb mode is much nicer, as is cperl-mode :)

Also, you can test your web applications right in your editor, thanks
the the built-in browser (and shell). And a built-in IRC client means
that support inquiries are never more than a C-x o away. ;)

emacs++

Yeah ? even a real editor is no further than a M-x viper-mode
away. :-)

Regards,

Dare I mention that Eclipse has a perl personality now-a-days.

Joe

You are a man with fine taste. :-)

Regards,

Yeah...except for the vim part. :-)

Actually, you are right, using vim isn?t fine taste. It is just
common sense.

Wink,

Eclipse might do you with the Perl plugin (EPIC) and other plugins (subversion for example)

Unfortunately, there isn't a plugin for catalyst as there is for RoR :(

(that's a disguised hint at anyone who's interested in writing one) ;) lol

catalyst.20.chsg@spamgourmet.com wrote: I hesitate to ask this question because it seems to often result in
some juvenille flame war. Everyone is different, with different needs
and preferences. That's why we have choices. It's Perl after all,
right? [grin]

With that out of the way, what IDE or editor works well for you?

My default has been VIM since I'm really comfortable in it and can
edit text really fast with it. However, as a very visual person, I
find it cumbersome when having to flip back and forth between all of
the files. This is especially true since I'm new to Catalyst and
don't have everything solidified in my head.

As a side note, I work on OS X, so any references to Windows-only
programs won't really be useful but may be for others who come accross
this thread.

I'm mostly just interested in what has worked for you (and will take
everything with that grain of salt), not what is crappy about other
programs.

Many thanks in advance,

Conan.

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Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

I mostly use Emacs (X11 build, rather than Aqua build) but kinda
like TextMate too.

Cheers,
Steve

I've been messing a bit with this of late myself. I've tried using Eclipse
(www.eclipse.org) for a while with the (quite nice) Perl plug-in, mostly because
it let me work on both XP boxes and *nix machines pretty easily with a nearly
identical user experience. Also, if you have to work with databases the SQL
Explorer plugin is really quite good, and there's a subversion plug-in as well.
However, for the actual Perl I'm more and more back using xemacs and using
Eclipse just as a SQL visual query/edit tool like Toad.

I don't use OS X but one caveat with Eclipse if you decide to check it out, you
need to use Sun java, not anything else. Getting rid of the gnu java emulation
and getting 'real' java on a debian box was a minor pain, while getting it onto
an OpenBSD machine was easy but took a very long time to compile. Not having to
deal with java is yet another reason to stick to emacs, IMHO.

TCB

On Tue Nov 14 10:25 , catalyst.20.chsg@spamgourmet.com sent:

Last time I tried it, eclipse apt-get installs fine on debian testing,
and runs fine on free java.

Jules

(PS there is no java trap any more...)

jedit

eloy

I use Eclipse/EPIC/ViPlugin/SubClipse as my dev environment. Eclipse
COULD be faster, and EPIC could be a bit smoother, but I get alot more
work once I was comfortable with this stack, as opposed to just vim.

_Marlon_

I've learned vim in the Unix class (1st year at university), and used it
ever since on Linux. I like it on X11, where I can have something around
130x100 chars and 4+ windows in the same terminal. On Windows I tried
various editors and came to like Crimson Editor.
It has easily customizable syntax highlighting, it is pod-aware and lets
your create "projects", which are nothing more than a structured bunch
of files but are useful nonetheless.

Hello!

I use a strange combination of vim+gvim+gedit but I find it fits my
needs perfectly. Some developers in my company who want something
resembling a good-looking IDE use Aptana (Eclipse based), which ain't bad.

Michele.

I think things like Aptana are the real strength of Eclipse. The same IDE can be
used to check javascript and html, pure java apps, Perl code, talk to cvs/svn,
connect to an Oracle database, etc. and so on. For many, many people that alone
makes it a better choice than Komodo or pretty much anything else. I don't think
an experienced emacs user and Perl coder will want to switch to it for their core
programming, but it's certainly nice to have a good GUI and debugging tools for
the parts of a project that might lie a bit outside one's area of expertise.

On Wed Nov 15 3:29 , Michele Beltrame <mb@italpro.net> sent: