FAQ

[PHP-INTERNALS] voting without vcs accounts

Ferenc Kovacs
Apr 16, 2012 at 8:14 am
Hi,

I sent an email last year about this issue, but it got sidetracked (partly
it was my fault):
http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54267.html
So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:

1. What are the requirements for getting voting rights in the wiki
without having a vcs/master account?
- The voting RFC states:
- Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by
those with php.net SVN accounts
- Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms,
tools, etc.)
- regular participant of internals discussions
2. What are the necessary steps from a volunteer to request voting
karma?
3. How do we handle the applicants? Who will "judge" the applications?
4. How can we see the list of the people having voting karma? Currently
only the wiki admins can see who are the people with the voting group
membership.


The wiki is already prepared to support voting without vcs account: there
is a voting group, anybody having membership in that group are able to vote
(
http://git.php.net/?p=web/wiki.git;a=commit;h=e3b97f03548fab661b5bc2dd66420db1024b1f39
).

My personal opinion would be that we have an application form like we have
for the vcs account request, which will send an email to the mailing list,
we can discuss here whether we support/approve the applicant or not, and
somebody with proper karma can approve/decline the application, which would
also trigger an email to the mailing list.

--
Ferenc Kovács
@Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
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36 responses

  • Sherif Ramadan at Apr 16, 2012 at 8:29 am

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 4:14 AM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
    Hi,

    I sent an email last year about this issue, but it got sidetracked (partly
    it was my fault):
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54267.html
    So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:

    1. What are the requirements for getting voting rights in the wiki
    without having a vcs/master account?
    - The voting RFC states:
    - Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by
    those with php.net SVN accounts
    - Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms,
    tools, etc.)
    - regular participant of internals discussions
    2. What are the necessary steps from a volunteer to request voting
    karma?
    3. How do we handle the applicants? Who will "judge" the applications?
    4. How can we see the list of the people having voting karma? Currently
    only the wiki admins can see who are the people with the voting group
    membership.


    The wiki is already prepared to support voting without vcs account: there
    is a voting group, anybody having membership in that group are able to vote
    (
    http://git.php.net/?p=web/wiki.git;a=commit;h=e3b97f03548fab661b5bc2dd66420db1024b1f39
    ).

    My personal opinion would be that we have an application form like we have
    for the vcs account request, which will send an email to the mailing list,
    we can discuss here whether we support/approve the applicant or not, and
    somebody with proper karma can approve/decline the application, which would
    also trigger an email to the mailing list.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu


    I'm completely in favor of a formal process since it would mean there
    can be less biased and favor applied to the selection and this can
    eliminate the potential for people being included to vote for or
    against something for the purpose of overtaking the vote.

    I think PHP is already a very inclusive environment. Given that
    php.net now has edit.php.net and has streamlined the process of
    submitting bug reports both for documentation and language bugs I
    think the inclusion into the voting process as a formal outline and
    drafted step-by-step process will further help put PHP in a position
    of higher power among its neighboring communities.

    I propose three primary suggestions for helping formulate such a process:

    1) The person requesting voting privileges in the RFC voting process
    should have either (a) contributed to the PHP community in a
    constructive and contemporary manner such as submitting helpful bug
    reports for docs or language bugs (did not contribute noise or repeat
    bugs or lack of reproducible test cases in the recent past), (b)
    participates in submitting patches to the PHP source repository, (c)
    participates in actively in php.net or wiki.php.net without a known
    history of disruptions among the community.

    2) The person requesting voting privileges should only be allowed to
    make the request once every so often (such as on a monthly or
    quarterly, or even annual basis, for example). This will help avoid
    constant requests that just get turned down and avoid a load on
    applicants. Also, the applicant should be reviewed by their peers as
    well as the SVN account holders to avoid prejudice. If this is not
    possible it should at least be set in some fashion what
    guidelines/prerequisites would appeal to the potential applicant so
    that people can have a set expectation of what to look for before
    approaching such privileges.

    3) Anyone who is not included in the voting process should not be
    turned down or discouraged from trying again (after an allotted
    waiting period) so as to keep the voting process lean and fair.
    However, I think it may also be fair to request that those re-sending
    a request to gain voting privileges should be required to produce some
    supporting evidence for their active and positive roles in their
    community, such as previous patches, bug report ids, mailing list
    archives discussions demonstrating some constructive feedback, logs,
    etc...

    I'm sure more can be made of this list in time. I just thought to
    start the discussion off with some constructive suggestions. :)
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 16, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    Hi!
    So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:
    I think before going into these, it is important to answer this
    question: what is the problem we're trying to solve?

    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Kris Craig at Apr 16, 2012 at 8:57 pm

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:
    I think before going into these, it is important to answer this
    question: what is the problem we're trying to solve?

    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227

    --
    PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
    To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
    I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in
    PHP should ever be changed unless it's "fixing" something that's broken.
    By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features
    added.

    With that in mind, here's the short answer: The problem is that there is a
    feature people are requesting that currently does not exist.

    The longer answer: This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be. This
    is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e.
    6.0). This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly
    assert more control over their code structure.

    --Kris
  • Nikita Popov at Apr 16, 2012 at 9:00 pm

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Kris Craig wrote:
    I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in
    PHP should ever be changed unless it's "fixing" something that's broken.
    By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features
    added.

    With that in mind, here's the short answer:  The problem is that there is a
    feature people are requesting that currently does not exist.

    The longer answer:  This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be.  This
    is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e.
    6.0).  This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly
    assert more control over their code structure.
    I think you mixed up two threads here :) This one is about voting ;)

    Nikita
  • Kris Craig at Apr 16, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Nikita Popov wrote:
    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Kris Craig wrote:
    I reject the premise of that question because it implies that nothing in
    PHP should ever be changed unless it's "fixing" something that's broken.
    By that standard, it would be virtually impossible to get any new features
    added.

    With that in mind, here's the short answer: The problem is that there is a
    feature people are requesting that currently does not exist.

    The longer answer: This is not a bugfix, nor does it purport to be. This
    is a requested new feature proposed for the next *major* PHP release (i.e.
    6.0). This feature will add convenience and allow developers o flexibly
    assert more control over their code structure.
    I think you mixed up two threads here :) This one is about voting ;)

    Nikita
    Oh, crap! You're right. Sorry, NM on that last post, everyone.

    I hate Mondays.... :/

    --Kris
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 16, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:
    I think before going into these, it is important to answer this
    question: what is the problem we're trying to solve?
    the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs
    users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone apply
    for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this.
    we already had at least one formal submission (
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54229.html) which
    went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple times
    about how can somebody request voting karma.
    I would like to be able point people to the right direction about this kind
    of questions, but currently there is no official way of doing this.
    I know that some of the wiki admins are already handed out a few people
    voting karma, but there is no formal process, and it isn't transparent in
    any way.
    I would like to see that fixed.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 16, 2012 at 11:32 pm
    Hi!
    the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs
    users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone
    apply for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this.
    And what is the problem in not having the formal process?
    which went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple
    times about how can somebody request voting karma.
    I'd say if you have to request it and you have to ask about it on
    twitter, you probably do not know enough about PHP development process
    to have a deciding vote on PHP features. For non-deciding votes, we have
    community voting where pretty much anyone can vote.

    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 16, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    the voting RFC explicitly states that it is possible for (some) non-vcs
    users to vote, but there isn't any formal process on how can someone
    apply for voting karma, and what is the decision making process on this.
    And what is the problem in not having the formal process?
    uhm. do I really have to explain it? for you? the same reason why we have
    the rfc process, the release process, the voting process.
    I'm not talking about 100% complete, unchangeable rules, but some kind of
    process to follow.
    mentioning the option for non-vcs users to vote in the voting RFC without
    providing them a way to apply for karma is the same as we wouldn't mention
    it at all.
    I could also accept if we don't allow them, but then we should be clear
    about it.

    which went unanswered and I was also questioned on irc/twitter multiple
    times about how can somebody request voting karma.
    I'd say if you have to request it and you have to ask about it on
    twitter, you probably do not know enough about PHP development process
    to have a deciding vote on PHP features.

    no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily
    accessible.
    people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to let
    them in.

    For non-deciding votes, we have
    community voting where pretty much anyone can vote.
    you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads?
    that's nice, but I'm talking about the voting laid out in the voting
    process rfc https://wiki.php.net/rfc/voting (what you also supported).

    as I mentioned before, I can live with it if we remove the ability for
    non-vcs users to vote, but in that case we should update the rfc (and the
    karma check in the wiki) accordingly.
    but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be
    able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests.
    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 16, 2012 at 11:58 pm
    Hi!
    no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily
    accessible.
    people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to
    let them in.
    If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving
    him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things,
    propose changes, etc. without any special access.
    you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads?
    No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to
    allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day.
    but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be
    able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests.
    Why sending a message to the list is not enough?
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 12:07 am

    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily
    accessible.
    people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to
    let them in.
    If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving
    him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things,
    propose changes, etc. without any special access.
    thats something which the current voting RFC allows. it seems that we are
    already over on that decision, as the accepted RFC had that clause.

    you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads?
    No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to
    allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day.
    I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the
    voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability. (see
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.html for the
    history of that change)

    but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be
    able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests.
    Why sending a message to the list is not enough?
    dunno, but it seems it isn't, as nobody replied or gave voting karma to
    William.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 17, 2012 at 12:28 am
    Hi!
    I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the
    voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability.
    (see http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.html for
    the history of that change)
    I don't see any indication there that community vote is not possible,
    but if it was changed we can make community vote be available again.

    My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't
    see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release
    process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing
    people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully
    accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal.
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:05 am

    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    I'm not sure about it. AFAIK when I implemented my patch to restrict the
    voting to the vcs users + the voting wiki group, we lost that ability.
    (see http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51932.htmlfor
    the history of that change)
    I don't see any indication there that community vote is not possible,
    but if it was changed we can make community vote be available again.
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html
    Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that
    everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting
    plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to vote.
    nobody asked that we would still need to keep the ability to create "open"
    votes where anybody can vote, so it wasn't implemented.

    My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't
    see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release
    process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing
    people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully
    accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal.
    To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the
    need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 17, 2012 at 9:48 pm
    Hi!
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html
    Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that
    everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting
    plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to vote.
    This is the authenticated vote. It has also option of having
    non-authenticated vote.
    My point is that we are talking about some formal processes but I don't
    see what would be the desired purpose of such processes. For release
    process, it's releasing a stable code in time. For RFC, it is informing
    people about proposed feature and getting it discussed and hopefully
    accepted. Here, I'm not sure what is the goal.


    To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the
    need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin.
    I don't see how getting you "voting carma", whatever it might be, can be
    a goal of PHP project. I'm talking about the goal of the whole thing.
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg51948.html
    Pierre said that it was a bug(better to say lack of restriction), that
    everybody with wiki account was able to vote, so I changed the voting
    plugin to only allow the specific groups(vcs + voting) to be able to
    vote.

    This is the authenticated vote. It has also option of having
    non-authenticated vote.
    ok, I didn't knew/remembered that.
    To be able to get voting karma if you meet the requirements. without the
    need to bribe Hannes, Philip or any other wiki admin.
    I don't see how getting you "voting carma", whatever it might be, can be
    a goal of PHP project. I'm talking about the goal of the whole thing.
    sorry, I can't really follow you with that.
    do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting
    rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to
    get their voting karma?

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 17, 2012 at 10:50 pm
    Hi!
    sorry, I can't really follow you with that.
    do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting
    rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to
    get their voting karma?
    I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of
    this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it?
    And please don't say "it says so in RFC" - it is not a goal.
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Christopher Jones at Apr 17, 2012 at 11:09 pm

    On 04/17/2012 03:50 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:
    Hi!
    sorry, I can't really follow you with that.
    do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting
    rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to
    get their voting karma?
    I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of
    this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it?
    And please don't say "it says so in RFC" - it is not a goal.
    Stas, I'm with Ferenc on this. We just need one or two sentences somewhere
    in the wiki saying how non-contributors can get vote karma. The sentences
    should give the physical process and what kind of people we will give karma to.

    Chris

    --
    christopher.jones@oracle.com
    http://twitter.com/#!/ghrd
  • Philip Olson at Apr 17, 2012 at 11:29 pm

    On Apr 17, 2012, at 4:08 PM, Christopher Jones wrote:


    On 04/17/2012 03:50 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:
    Hi!
    sorry, I can't really follow you with that.
    do you have a problem allowing the non-vcs users (defined by the voting
    rfc) to vote, or do you have a problem providing a clear way for them to
    get their voting karma?
    I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of
    this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it?
    And please don't say "it says so in RFC" - it is not a goal.
    Stas, I'm with Ferenc on this. We just need one or two sentences somewhere
    in the wiki saying how non-contributors can get vote karma. The sentences
    should give the physical process and what kind of people we will give karma to.
    The problem is that the voting RFC does not define who can vote. It contains
    two parts:

    1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?)
    2. Those without (how do we provide such rights? to whom?)

    If these are to be answered (they should) then I don't think an RFC can be
    edited like that (people already voted on it), so suspect we'd need a new
    RFC to replace it. Fun!

    I suspect most people voted "Yes" for that RFC thinking it'd mean less noise
    on this list while not caring about the details. That's only a guess. But
    trouble is, defining the "Who" is the most difficult part and a big reason why
    general consensus is preferred.

    Regards,
    Philip
  • Pierre Joye at Apr 18, 2012 at 5:37 am
    hi,
    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Philip Olson wrote:

    1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?)
    It does, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant classes
    of developers or doc writers.
    2. Those without (how do we provide such rights? to whom?)
    See my other reply, easy, simple, harmless.
    I suspect most people voted "Yes" for that RFC thinking it'd mean less noise
    on this list while not caring about the details. That's only a guess. But
    trouble is, defining the "Who" is the most difficult part and a big reason why
    general consensus is preferred.
    I prefer not to comment on that part. It is like saying that people
    are not able to take a qualified decision, for whatever reasons. I
    have been myself tempted to think or say the same about some of the
    php.net members, and have been proven wrong many times. So let ignore
    this comment.


    Cheers,
  • Pierre Joye at Apr 18, 2012 at 5:37 am

    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Pierre Joye wrote:
    hi,
    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:29 AM, Philip Olson wrote:

    1. Those with SVN [sic] access (but how does karma come into play?)
    It does, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant classes
    of developers or doc writers.
    A "not" was missing. It should have been:

    It does not, or we begin to have 2nd, 3rd and totally irrelevant
    classes of developers or doc writers.

    Cheers,
  • Pierre Joye at Apr 18, 2012 at 5:34 am
    hi Stas,
    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of
    this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it?
    And please don't say "it says so in RFC" - it is not a goal.
    Let me clarify that and try to do not go backwards while we have
    finally moved forward.

    The goal is to have community leader participating in our design
    discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of
    RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core
    devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the
    direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very
    unlikely that it will happen.

    How do the community leaders come in? They are usually very well known
    and already participate to php in one way or another (bugs report,
    testing, etc.) and are part of a known OSS project (we have drupal,
    zf, symfony already for example). Having a couple of devs to second
    their addition is also requested.

    This has been said many times already in the past and it is said in
    the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to
    make php more closed to our communities.

    Cheers,
  • Stas Malyshev at Apr 18, 2012 at 6:58 am
    Hi!
    The goal is to have community leader participating in our design
    discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of
    RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core
    devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the
    direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very
    unlikely that it will happen.
    Excellent. So we have people participating, contributing to RFCs,
    getting features accepted, etc. So what's the problem that needs fixing?
    I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is
    about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have
    not read.
    the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to
    make php more closed to our communities.
    I'm sorry I didn't understand the last sentence. Could you please
    explain what you meant by that?
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227
  • Pierre Joye at Apr 18, 2012 at 7:03 am
    hi Stas,
    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:
    Hi!
    The goal is to have community leader participating in our design
    discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of
    RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core
    devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the
    direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very
    unlikely that it will happen.
    Excellent. So we have people participating, contributing to RFCs,
    getting features accepted, etc. So what's the problem that needs fixing?
    Nothing right now, everything works as it should so far. We may do a
    review in a year, or half a year. But as of now we are on track and
    everything seems to run well.
    I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is
    about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have
    not read.
    It was not for you directly but the voting opponent (the very few we
    have) who cannot get over it. However you are right, they can be
    ignored (for their opinion about voting :).

    Cheers,
  • Lester Caine at Apr 18, 2012 at 8:06 am

    Pierre Joye wrote:
    I am ignoring the comment about FUDs because I have no idea what it is
    about, so I guess you are answering somebody other's comment that I have
    not read.
    It was not for you directly but the voting opponent (the very few we
    have) who cannot get over it. However you are right, they can be
    ignored (for their opinion about voting :).
    I guess that covers me :(

    --
    Lester Caine - G8HFL
    -----------------------------
    Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
    L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
    EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
    Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
    Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
  • Gustavo Lopes at Apr 18, 2012 at 8:23 am

    On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 07:34:06 +0200, Pierre Joye wrote:
    On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:50 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    I have a problem that we don't have understanding of what is the goal of
    this whole vote setup. What is it for? What we will be doing with it?
    And please don't say "it says so in RFC" - it is not a goal.
    Let me clarify that and try to do not go backwards while we have
    finally moved forward.

    The goal is to have community leader participating in our design
    discussions and decisions. It has happened already for a couple of
    RFCs (accepted and rejected) and went very well. The FUDs about core
    devs, legacy developers and the like loosing control about the
    direction PHP takes has been killed, it did not happen and it is very
    unlikely that it will happen.

    How do the community leaders come in? They are usually very well known
    and already participate to php in one way or another (bugs report,
    testing, etc.) and are part of a known OSS project (we have drupal,
    zf, symfony already for example). Having a couple of devs to second
    their addition is also requested.

    This has been said many times already in the past and it is said in
    the RFC as well. We do not need over killed process as an attempt to
    make php more closed to our communities.
    I think the issue is not who, in general terms, can vote, but how a
    determination that someone is covered by those terms is made.

    What is a "known" OSS project? For instance, which of these would qualify:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#PHP ?

    Of course, it's impossible to set a clear line on what is a "known"
    project. Which leads to arbitrariness. Which leads to the second question
    -- who approves those voting rights? It's been said in this thread that
    any wiki admin can approve an account without saying anything. Is this
    case? Who was approved, by whom, and who "seconded the addition" of these
    accounts? Personally, I don't know.

    These are, in my opinion, legitimate concerns that should not be dismissed
    (and "has been said in the past" and allusions to obviousness or lack of
    problems so far are not appropriate responses).

    --
    Gustavo Lopes
  • Johannes Schlüter at Apr 18, 2012 at 1:18 pm

    On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 10:23 +0200, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
    I think the issue is not who, in general terms, can vote, but how a
    determination that someone is covered by those terms is made.

    What is a "known" OSS project? For instance, which of these would
    qualify:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#PHP ?
    If the vote is bound to the other project: does this mean the other
    project has to decide about a "delegate"? Could the organisation revoke
    that delegation or replace him? Would we therefore only work with
    projects which are setup properly? (This would mean that a project
    organized like PHP won't get a vote)

    Right now accounts (and therefore voting rights) are handed out based on
    individual contributions. And I think that's a good model to follow for
    the votes.

    The way I understood the rule was to be able to give regular
    participants in discussions, (assuming they actually make useful
    contributions ;-) ) voting karma even though they don't contribute code.
    And I wonder why that should have more precise rules than the ones we
    use to hand out accounts. Basically every candidate I imagine could get
    a "proper" account easily, if they want.

    johannes
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 18, 2012 at 1:41 pm


    And I wonder why that should have more precise rules than the ones we
    use to hand out accounts. Basically every candidate I imagine could get
    a "proper" account easily, if they want.

    - we have a dedicated page for requesting vcs account
    - we also have an agreed upon, loosely defined set of requirements for
    handing out accounts (first send patches and after a few gets accepted, you
    should apply for your own account)
    - it is a public information who can approve accounts (it is well
    hidden, but public:
    http://git.php.net/?p=web/master.git;a=blob;f=manage/users.php;h=75c5aa6bf9812b653de35c43667ef03387050437;hb=HEAD#l478
    ^^)
    - when an account is approved or rejected, a mail is sent to the list,
    where we can see who approved/denied/deleted the account

    if we can have the same for the non-vcs voting approval, that would be
    fine with me.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Kris Craig at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:05 am

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:

    Hi!
    no, it only means that our internal processes aren't clear or easily
    accessible.
    people outside the circle can't do much, than asking people inside to
    let them in.
    If somebody is an outsider to PHP development, why do you think giving
    him a deciding vote on it would be a good thing? One can discuss things,
    propose changes, etc. without any special access.
    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people
    who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in
    the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as
    the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development.
    That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there
    to see if it holds up. =)
    you mean the +1/-1 on the mailing list threads?
    No, I mean community voting in the wiki. Voting plugin has option to
    allow anybody to vote. We did such polls in the past. We can do it any day.
    but if we decide to keep it, we should make it possible for people to be
    able to request for voting karma, and a way to handle those requests.
    Why sending a message to the list is not enough?
    --
    Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
    SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
    (408)454-6900 ext. 227

    --
    PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
    To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:10 am


    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about people
    who are established PHP developers but who generally don't participate in
    the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could be made that, as
    the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in its development.
    That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that premise out there
    to see if it holds up. =)
    could you please open a separate thread for that?
    btw. "regular participant of internals discussions" is one of the reason on
    which group someone can get voting karma.
    so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join
    the decision making process.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Kris Craig at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:14 am
    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about
    people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't
    participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could
    be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in
    its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that
    premise out there to see if it holds up. =)
    could you please open a separate thread for that?
    btw. "regular participant of internals discussions" is one of the reason
    on which group someone can get voting karma.
    so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join
    the decision making process.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
    Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking about?
    I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't?

    --Kris
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:21 am
    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig wrote:
    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about
    people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't
    participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could
    be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in
    its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that
    premise out there to see if it holds up. =)
    could you please open a separate thread for that?
    btw. "regular participant of internals discussions" is one of the reason
    on which group someone can get voting karma.
    so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join
    the decision making process.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
    Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking
    about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't?

    I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is
    defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma.
    You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to
    participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC.
    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Kris Craig at Apr 17, 2012 at 1:31 am
    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig wrote:


    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about
    people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't
    participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could
    be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in
    its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that
    premise out there to see if it holds up. =)
    could you please open a separate thread for that?
    btw. "regular participant of internals discussions" is one of the reason
    on which group someone can get voting karma.
    so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join
    the decision making process.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
    Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking
    about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't?

    I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which
    is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma.
    You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to
    participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC.
    It's the same topic, and the question of who *should* or should not be
    allowed to vote was already raised previously on this thread. That's what
    I was responding to. So, deep breath.... =)

    --Kris

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Apr 17, 2012 at 7:32 am

    Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking
    about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't?

    I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which
    is defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma.
    You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able
    to participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC.
    It's the same topic, and the question of who *should* or should not be
    allowed to vote was already raised previously on this thread. That's what
    I was responding to. So, deep breath.... =)
    I think Stas was a little bit offtopic/red herring with the discussion on
    why do we need non-vcs people to be allowed to vote.
    But to use that as an excuse to hijack the thread to resurrect the "why
    can't everybody vote" discussion isn't really nice, and I even asked it
    especially to not to do, as that was the reason which halted my previous
    attempt to address this issue.
    Could we all please focus on the original topic?
    Thanks!

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
  • Philip Olson at Apr 17, 2012 at 4:27 am

    On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:21 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
    On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Kris Craig wrote:


    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

    Just to play devil's advocate (Satan and I go way back), what about
    people who are established PHP developers but who generally don't
    participate in the development/discussion of PHP core? An argument could
    be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able to have some say in
    its development. That's not my position, mind you; I'm just throwing that
    premise out there to see if it holds up. =)
    could you please open a separate thread for that?
    btw. "regular participant of internals discussions" is one of the reason
    on which group someone can get voting karma.
    so if that is provided, anybody have a chance to get join
    the decision making process.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu
    Why would that be a separate thread? Isn't that what we're talking
    about? I.e. determining who gets voting access and who doesn't?

    I just ask for clarification on how the community representatives (which is
    defined in the accepted voting RFC) can get their karma.
    You are talking about changing the requirements for somebody to be able to
    participate in the voting, thus changing/extending the original RFC.
    The voting RFC is unclear but aside from that, there are two non-vcs
    accounts with voting karma today:

    User: damz: Damien Tournoud - damz@damz.org
    User: hywan: Ivan Enderlin - ivan.enderlin@hoa-project.net

    Not saying they should or should not, but just saying. And I'm not sure
    how/when they received the voting karma but it happened.

    Regards,
    Philip
  • Ryan McCue at Apr 17, 2012 at 2:41 am

    Kris Craig wrote:
    An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be
    able to have some say in its development.
    As a PHP developer (that is, a developer who writes in PHP), I'd agree,
    *to an extent*. There are certainly things that I'd like to be able to
    vote on (such as additions to the language/syntax and things such as
    .phpp). However, I've got no idea how easy such things are to implement,
    so I don't feel qualified to even ask to be able to vote.

    However, these things are going to influence me as a developer, so I'd
    like to be able to vote.

    Take, as an example, the .phpp debates. (Just as an example.) If I
    didn't like it, I'd like to be able to vote against it to avoid having
    to handle it later. However, if I *was* for it, I wouldn't feel
    qualified to comment, as I have no idea how hard these things are to
    implement.

    (Just my $0.02. Apologies if this is confusing, I'm a mixture of tired
    and distracted.)
  • Kris Craig at Apr 17, 2012 at 3:05 am

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ryan McCue wrote:

    Kris Craig wrote:
    An argument could be made that, as the users of PHP, they should be able
    to have some say in its development.
    As a PHP developer (that is, a developer who writes in PHP), I'd agree,
    *to an extent*. There are certainly things that I'd like to be able to vote
    on (such as additions to the language/syntax and things such as .phpp).
    However, I've got no idea how easy such things are to implement, so I don't
    feel qualified to even ask to be able to vote.

    However, these things are going to influence me as a developer, so I'd
    like to be able to vote.

    Take, as an example, the .phpp debates. (Just as an example.) If I didn't
    like it, I'd like to be able to vote against it to avoid having to handle
    it later. However, if I *was* for it, I wouldn't feel qualified to comment,
    as I have no idea how hard these things are to implement.

    (Just my $0.02. Apologies if this is confusing, I'm a mixture of tired and
    distracted.)


    --
    PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
    To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
    Hmm yeah that makes sense. What if we split the questions into multiple
    parts? For example, the first question would be something along the lines
    of, "Conceptually, do you think this is a good idea?" That could be open
    to PHP developers as well. Then the second question could be, "If you
    answered 'Yes', as a core contributor, do you believe this proposal is
    technically feasible?" That question would be open only to the people who
    can vote now.

    Mind you, I'm just throwing this out there off the top of my head. It
    could be a really stupid idea, but I thought it might provoke some
    interesting discussion at the very least. With that in mind.... Thoughts?
    =)

    --Kris
  • Ferenc Kovacs at Mar 2, 2013 at 8:08 am

    On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:

    Hi,

    I sent an email last year about this issue, but it got sidetracked (partly
    it was my fault):
    http://www.mail-archive.com/internals@lists.php.net/msg54267.html
    So this time, I would like focusing only on the following:

    1. What are the requirements for getting voting rights in the wiki
    without having a vcs/master account?
    - The voting RFC states:
    - Representatives from the PHP community, that will be chosen by
    those with php.net SVN accounts
    - Lead developers of PHP based projects (frameworks, cms,
    tools, etc.)
    - regular participant of internals discussions
    2. What are the necessary steps from a volunteer to request
    voting karma?
    3. How do we handle the applicants? Who will "judge" the applications?
    4. How can we see the list of the people having voting karma?
    Currently only the wiki admins can see who are the people with the voting
    group membership.


    The wiki is already prepared to support voting without vcs account: there
    is a voting group, anybody having membership in that group are able to vote
    (
    http://git.php.net/?p=web/wiki.git;a=commit;h=e3b97f03548fab661b5bc2dd66420db1024b1f39
    ).

    My personal opinion would be that we have an application form like we have
    for the vcs account request, which will send an email to the mailing list,
    we can discuss here whether we support/approve the applicant or not, and
    somebody with proper karma can approve/decline the application, which would
    also trigger an email to the mailing list.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu

    Hi,

    Seeing the discussion/confusion yesterday I'm bringing this up again, maybe
    we can get an agreement this time.

    --
    Ferenc Kovács
    @Tyr43l - http://tyrael.hu

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